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New I understand the point just disagreeing with it
RICO would be the first to go.
Cleanup the firearms list, if you are not a felon or have a history of pychological problems you should be able to buy any gun, rifle, shotgun, semi auto around if you pass the instant check you get yer weapon. A little deeper check to buy full auto with get rid of the local cop provision.
Extend the expectation of privacy to being in the open air where you hope that all the cameras, infrared detectors parabolic antenaes may only be directed in your direction after a Judge has decreed there is probable cause that a crime has been commited.
Conspiracy laws need to be overhauled.
Forfeiture of property without a court hearing would disappear.
Laws banning certain breeds of dogs.
That is just a short list. Actually every law on the books should have a sunset claus so it can be examined in case of changes needed or thrown off the books.
thanx,
bill
Our bureaucracy and our laws have turned the world into a clean, safe work camp. We are raising a nation of slaves.
Chuck Palahniuk
New No, you don't.
RICO would be the first to go

I won't bother with the history behind that - and the reason it was passed. (I don't like how its misused by prosecutors, but that's a refinement that's needed). (You' just ignore all the cases of murderers and other organized crime members who were able to manipulate the system with conspiracies).

Extend the expectation of privacy to being in the open air where you hope that all the cameras, infrared detectors parabolic antenaes may only be directed in your direction after a Judge has decreed there is probable cause that a crime has been commited.

Based on what?

You just said that you have "privacy" when you're in public, so what evidence could anyone offer against you?

It would all be "protected" under your privacy!


I don't think you understand, and I think you need to think this through a bit more. If you want to extend this, well, OK, I don't think you've got a logical leg to stand on, but feel free to try.

But the way to get that, (and not decend into anarchy) is to make the law, the definitions, etc work. *not* by vandalizing public property.


The automatic sunset is something that I've often wanted to see, but its probably impractical.

Addison
New heres another reason (thanx, freep!)
[link|http://www.freep.com/news/mich/lein31_20010731.htm|http://www.freep.co...20010731.htm]
RICO was bad to begin with from the getgo. Wanna catch a mobster? Get a reasonable cause, get a warrant and tap him up the ass. RICO is an excuse for frustrated prosecutors who wanted more than charging a mobster with the crime at hand. Too fscking bad. You cant catchem dont change the law to provide criminal charges by denying the constitutional right to freedom of association. Aside from that you are right it is heavily abused in both criminal and civil cases.
thanx,
bill
Our bureaucracy and our laws have turned the world into a clean, safe work camp. We are raising a nation of slaves.
Chuck Palahniuk
New Re: heres another reason (thanx, freep!)
You're complaining about the police keeping and having (unlogged and unmonitored) access to a database.

I have the same concerns.

So I want the access logged and (the ability to) monitor.

Wanna catch a mobster? Get a reasonable cause, get a warrant and tap him up the ass.

And when your witnesses disappear, and your jury is threatened or bribed, (or the judge)... what then?

That's when RICO was passed.

Yes, its abused as hell now by prosecutors. I don't like its use.

You cant catchem dont change the law to provide criminal charges by denying the constitutional right to freedom of association.

It was more to deal with the "organized" crime part. The planned murders - now if you were *part* of it - even if you didn't pull the trigger - you could be held liable.

If you planned the bank robbery, you could be charged. If you drove the getaway car, they could charge you with more than running a red light.

And more importantly - when you caught more than 1 person, they couldn't all point the finger in a circle, making it hard to convict anybody.

I don't have a problem with convicting on conspiracies. Its not who you hang out with. Its who you hang out with when planning to break the law.

Addison
New *sigh*
Based on what?

You just said that you have "privacy" when you're in public, so what evidence could anyone offer against you?

It would all be "protected" under your privacy!

So - prior to surveillance cameras, in order to solve crimes, police had to be stationed every streetcorner, taking notes, and asking for ID (facial recog. software) in order to solve crimes?

This is not about the ability to assign surveillance on an individual - with 'probable cause', that's always been possible.

This is about the police monitoring all of our movements in public, 'trawling for crime' without evidence that any specific crime has been committed. You have no problem with being unmonitored being the exception to the rule (something you would have to do by hiding on private property).

I do - so do many others. Why should we be punished for the convenience of the police?

And that's what it is - convenience. To insist that law enforcement requires constant monitoring of the populace is ridiculous - or do you insist that law enforcement has been impossible until now?

Imric's Tips for Living
  • Paranoia Is a Survival Trait

  • Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
New That's not what I said.
So - prior to surveillance cameras, in order to solve crimes, police had to be stationed every streetcorner, taking notes, and asking for ID (facial recog. software) in order to solve crimes?

That was not what I said.

Go back and read it again.

I was using *Bill O*'s stated case.

The way he described it, police *could not witness anything* without a warrent.

And that's what I was replying to.

And that's what it is - convenience. To insist that law enforcement requires constant monitoring of the populace is ridiculous - or do you insist that law enforcement has been impossible until now?

Nope.

But if we did it according to Bill's rules, we'd either have inconsistant, impossible-to-follow laws, or none.

Under *what he said*, it would be near impossible, yes.

Not what I said, his hypothesis. I was just expanding on the extention of that.

Addison
New What he said:
quote:
Extend the expectation of privacy to being in the open air where you hope that all the cameras, infrared detectors parabolic antenaes may only be directed in your direction after a Judge has decreed there is probable cause that a crime has been commited.

He seems to include probable cause and the assignation of a warrant very clearly....

Imric's Tips for Living
  • Paranoia Is a Survival Trait

  • Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
New Yep.
Extend the expectation of privacy to being in the open air where you hope that all the cameras, infrared detectors parabolic antenaes may only be directed in your direction after a Judge has decreed there is probable cause that a crime has been commited.

(emphasis mine).

And I was pointing out that that expectation of privacy - that the police can't observe you without a warrent - means that there would be almost an impossibility of *getting said probable cause*.

"we saw....." "I object" "Objection sustained".

In order to change that, you have to differentiate between the police watching with their eyes, and a camera. (Hasn't been done so far). Given that - when the police can only watch AFTER a warrent has been answered, then how do they get the warrent?

Addison
New Hasn't been done so far?
Sure it has.

Police can use what they hear as testimony, yet cannot record without a warrant.

This does not seem to stop them from fighting crime, or testifying in court.

Imric's Tips for Living
  • Paranoia Is a Survival Trait

  • Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
New No.
I started to say... "That's the *way it is now*. (the police can observe)"

Not under the Boxley situation, however. There, he's saying the police can only observe ONCE a warrant has been issued. Since they can't observe to get a warrant...... Then how can they get one? (Bill's not explained the difference between a cop, undercover cop, and a camera. So if you restrict the actions of one, you restrict them all. (per current law)).

This is Bill's hypothesis - that a warrent is needed for police attention. Of course that's silly - but its *what he said*. Talk to him about the silliness, I"m just pointing it out.


But then it hit me - Wait. No its not.

Police can use what they hear as testimony, yet cannot record without a warrant.

That's not true. Notice the police cruiser cameras? No warrant needed for sound and video for them.

So, no, that's not right at all. Because what they're taping and recording is *public*. Not private.

So no, they *don't* need a warrent for taping public events.

Addison
New Question about recording
As I mentioned elsewhere, laws vary state-to-stae on who has to be aware of recording for it to be legal. I've never considered how that applies to dashboard cameras. I suspect that what law exists specifies audio recording, with no mention of video. If that's the case, it's bad law, IMO.

So does anyone know: In the states where it's illegal to record your own phone conversations without informing the other party, are the police allowed to record audio or video of you without your consent?
This is my sig. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
New Not sure about other places.
But in georgia, they have something called "implied consent". If you get a drivers license, one of the caveats is that by accepting the license, you give implied consent for a breathalizer test in case of a dui stop and you also give implied consent to be video recorded in any traffic stop.
"When it crosses my mind to do something, I don't ask why, I ask why not. And usually there's no reason not to, so I just go ahead. It's given me the strangest collection of hats"
New Heh.. Kinda like the Windoze EULA, no ?
You wanna drive? OK - sign away a few rights right ____ here.

Want medical care for that punctured lung? OK - sign away that house ___ here.

Wanna report illegal actions of your Corp employer? OK Mr. Unemployed with no insurance, sign ___ here.



Murica. Love it or Leave It\ufffd

(Still and all - the cops' dash cameras are a two-edged sword - and it isn't clear what all the implications are. Bad cop behavior may be as easily shown as bad driver behavior.) Nothing is *really* 'simple'. We just so *want* it to be..


A.
New Interesting point.
Notice the police cruiser cameras? No warrant needed for sound and video for them.

Is court testimony based on them then, legal? It's possible that such recordings might be used (until some lawyer challenges it, anyway). Police powers now encompass so many things now, some directly in conflict with the constitution (if a cop mentions "drugs", for instance, property can be siezed, and sold at auction without restitution to the owner, even if the charges never go to court. DUI checkpoints allow basic searches without probable cause... etc., etc) and precedent. An officer can 'run' a license plate (public) without any overt reason; asking for identification, license, insurance, registration, etc. requires probable cause. So - is a face a 'license plate', or 'ID'? Can the police legally use face-recognition software to trawl for 'perps'?

Since, as many love to quote, driving is a privelege, not a right, license plates might be spot-checkable - I suspect that since "Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness" is a holy canon here in the 'States, 'face checks' don't fall into the same category.

And if they are tested legally, and are considered legal, watch hoods and masks become commonplace fashion statements. Not everyone is comfortable with the police watching everything you do, with the only respite being to hide on private property.

Imric's Tips for Living
  • Paranoia Is a Survival Trait

  • Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
New Re: Interesting point.
Is court testimony based on them then, legal? It's possible that such recordings might be used (until some lawyer challenges it, anyway)

As far as I know, yes.

I did a quick web search, and didn't find any news to it being every challenged. (found a couple Canadian articles decrying it).

Again, since this is a public issue, I don't think they can be.

Maybe we can ask LAM,E for an opinion. :)

watch hoods and masks become commonplace fashion statements. Not everyone is comfortable with the police watching everything you do, with the only respite being to hide on private property.

And the West thinks the Arabs are old-fashioned and archaic. :)

As to the police powers - the seizure law is so obscene as to be worthy of question how it ever was passed.

Addison
New Cruiser cams
Presumably the cruiser cameras are used to back up the testimony of the officer - at least that's what I've seen. They aren't used in a vacuum, like the street cams. Officer testifies "I did this and thus, and the perp did this." Produces cruiser video in support. Problem is that without other evidence, people can claim they were roughed up or evidence planted; with that camera, it's harder to do the claim.

Also, remember, the street intersection cams have been associated with deliberate shortening of the yellow light period. Of *course* when the yellow light interval is shortened, there will be more people caught in the intersection. Pure dollars at stake here.
French Zombies are zapping me with lasers!
New And as such, I have no problem with them
The cruiser cam is limited in a very practical sense - there are only as many out there as there are cruisers. You can't blanket the city with them without blanketing the city with cruisers. You can't use them to track everybody everywhere without spending too much money and scaring the straights.

A cruiser cam is equivalent to a cop seeing things that happen in public.

Not only that, they encourage professionalism and acceptable behavior on the part of the police. Sure, they can be turned off, but the officer's testimony is so much more compelling when there is video.

I suppose the software could be used, and the database built, on the images anyway. But considering the limited resources, it is likely that the cameras will be focused on problems, not fishing for crimes.
White guys in suits know best
- Pat McCurdy
     UK's surveillance camera vigilantes! - (Ashton) - (138)
         That's a slippery slope, too. - (addison) - (137)
             "Time and distance" was never allowed in US traffic - (Ashton) - (6)
                 Then it shouldn't be a problem. - (addison)
                 Actually, not to nitpick... - (Simon_Jester) - (4)
                     There is a difference... - (hnick)
                     Also New Mexico... - (Fearless Freep)
                     1992 study of Photo Radar proposal for DC Capital Beltway - (Another Scott) - (1)
                         60%? Right. - (Brandioch)
             what the heck is wrong with scofflaws? - (boxley) - (129)
                 The root word of "justice" is "just". - (addison) - (119)
                     tim mcveigh did obey his own law - (boxley) - (116)
                         And we as a society had a problem with that. - (addison) - (115)
                             in response - (boxley) - (114)
                                 Everybody who's name starts with "B", you're under arrest. - (addison) - (110)
                                     It is a judgement call usually - (orion)
                                     Here's a simple syllogism, if not quite rational enough for - (Ashton) - (2)
                                         mama said to save it until I was married - (boxley)
                                         Yep, that's simple. - (addison)
                                     My slightly radical opinion. - (Brandioch) - (21)
                                         Re: My slightly radical opinion. - (addison) - (20)
                                             Work all angles. - (Brandioch) - (19)
                                                 Re: Work all angles. - (addison) - (18)
                                                     To work the system. - (Brandioch) - (17)
                                                         Work it, bayybeeeee. - (addison) - (16)
                                                             so when you get a letter to show up for yer gps ass chip - (boxley) - (15)
                                                                 You're changing the subject even more. - (addison) - (14)
                                                                     Perhaps you are simply realizing it, less and less? - (Ashton) - (9)
                                                                         Re: Perhaps you are simply realizing it, less and less? - (addison) - (8)
                                                                             It's simple, really - but it won't be, for you. - (Ashton) - (7)
                                                                                 Its only simple if you're stupid. - (addison) - (6)
                                                                                     The issue (for me) is thresholds. - (Another Scott) - (4)
                                                                                         Are we civilised or are we not? - (pwhysall) - (2)
                                                                                             I think you're overstating the case... - (Simon_Jester) - (1)
                                                                                                 Minor correction - (wharris2)
                                                                                         Fishing... - (imric)
                                                                                     Flailing? - (Brandioch)
                                                                     not changing the subject at all - (boxley) - (3)
                                                                         Ya, Bill, you are. - (addison) - (2)
                                                                             ok then lets continue - (boxley) - (1)
                                                                                 Re: ok then lets continue - (addison)
                                     another point of view - (boxley) - (83)
                                         Re: another point of view - (addison) - (82)
                                             sorry - (boxley) - (81)
                                                 I'm going to have to ask you, as painful as it is, to come - (addison) - (80)
                                                     I can handle that one. - (Brandioch) - (78)
                                                         I don't think you did. - (addison) - (77)
                                                             Legallity vs. right. - (Brandioch) - (76)
                                                                 I think the point is going over your head. - (addison) - (75)
                                                                     the point vs pointy head - (boxley) - (70)
                                                                         Re: the point vs pointy head - (addison) - (69)
                                                                             Addison, your laundry called. Your brown shirts are ready. -NT - (DonRichards) - (68)
                                                                                 Um... - (addison) - (67)
                                                                                     Zoom. It goes over his head. - (DonRichards) - (66)
                                                                                         Not really. - (addison) - (65)
                                                                                             Whatever - (DonRichards) - (64)
                                                                                                 Whatever - (addison) - (59)
                                                                                                     You poor dear. Why *of course* your Logic is superior - (Ashton) - (38)
                                                                                                         Re: You poor dear. Why *of course* your Logic is superior - (addison)
                                                                                                         "Reasoning" with your emotions in stead of logic??? - (CRConrad) - (36)
                                                                                                             Now then CRC. We may eventually get this done, - (Ashton) - (35)
                                                                                                                 Not likely. - (addison) - (32)
                                                                                                                     I think that your position is - (boxley) - (31)
                                                                                                                         You really haven't read me in my posts. - (addison) - (26)
                                                                                                                             dont bother with the facts - (boxley) - (25)
                                                                                                                                 You're still missing Addison's point Bill. - (Another Scott) - (24)
                                                                                                                                     I understand the point just disagreeing with it - (boxley) - (16)
                                                                                                                                         No, you don't. - (addison) - (15)
                                                                                                                                             heres another reason (thanx, freep!) - (boxley) - (1)
                                                                                                                                                 Re: heres another reason (thanx, freep!) - (addison)
                                                                                                                                             *sigh* - (imric) - (12)
                                                                                                                                                 That's not what I said. - (addison) - (11)
                                                                                                                                                     What he said: - (imric) - (10)
                                                                                                                                                         Yep. - (addison) - (9)
                                                                                                                                                             Hasn't been done so far? - (imric) - (8)
                                                                                                                                                                 No. - (addison) - (7)
                                                                                                                                                                     Question about recording - (drewk) - (2)
                                                                                                                                                                         Not sure about other places. - (DonRichards) - (1)
                                                                                                                                                                             Heh.. Kinda like the Windoze EULA, no ? - (Ashton)
                                                                                                                                                                     Interesting point. - (imric) - (3)
                                                                                                                                                                         Re: Interesting point. - (addison)
                                                                                                                                                                         Cruiser cams - (wharris2) - (1)
                                                                                                                                                                             And as such, I have no problem with them - (mhuber)
                                                                                                                                     But aren't you eliding the "powers reserved to the people" - (Ashton) - (6)
                                                                                                                                         I don't think so. - (addison) - (5)
                                                                                                                                             Forget.. mobs dressed in black, smashing cameras. - (Ashton) - (4)
                                                                                                                                                 Not the only thing forgotten. - (addison) - (3)
                                                                                                                                                     Once again you speak of The Law, monolithically - (Ashton) - (2)
                                                                                                                                                         What can I say? - (addison) - (1)
                                                                                                                                                             I regret you are taking a characterization of a mindset - (Ashton)
                                                                                                                         I think you might be slightly mistaken... - (bepatient) - (3)
                                                                                                                             Actually, I believe it is illegal to listen in on - (Simon_Jester) - (2)
                                                                                                                                 Isn't recording the problem, cell phone or live? - (drewk) - (1)
                                                                                                                                     And that's my problem with the cameras - (mhuber)
                                                                                                                 Je crois que vous avez misaperc,u cet expression: - (CRConrad) - (1)
                                                                                                                     Re: apres mois le deluge.. - (Ashton)
                                                                                                     I observe, I see a pattern. - (DonRichards) - (19)
                                                                                                         But you didn't, that's the problem. - (addison) - (5)
                                                                                                             I apologize - (DonRichards) - (4)
                                                                                                                 Thanks. - (addison)
                                                                                                                 Wimp! - (deSitter) - (2)
                                                                                                                     Oh, POAD, fuckwit! - (CRConrad)
                                                                                                                     Had? - (DonRichards)
                                                                                                         No, I think it's *you* who are "los[ing] the point entirely" - (CRConrad) - (12)
                                                                                                             All true, as far as it goes. Just too simplistic. - (Ashton) - (11)
                                                                                                                 "Too simplistic"??? That's fucking rich, coming from *you*! - (CRConrad) - (8)
                                                                                                                     So.. you want clarity and simplicity - with 'romantics'? - (Ashton) - (7)
                                                                                                                         Here's why "direct action" is a bad idea... - (pwhysall) - (2)
                                                                                                                             Point taken. and.. Ugh! - (Ashton)
                                                                                                                             Re: Here's why "direct action" is a bad idea... - (addison)
                                                                                                                         No - I want clarity and simplicity *from YOU*, here. - (CRConrad) - (3)
                                                                                                                             inneresting my kids go to a pediatrician -NT - (boxley) - (1)
                                                                                                                                 Yeah - follow the link in Peter's post... -NT - (CRConrad)
                                                                                                                             You've defined a 'clarity/simplicity' which doesn't exist: - (Ashton)
                                                                                                                 Re: Spray painting. - (a6l6e6x) - (1)
                                                                                                                     Small prediction - (Ashton)
                                                                                                 Re: Whatever - (dpeterson) - (3)
                                                                                                     Lighten up. - (DonRichards) - (2)
                                                                                                         Hey.. a little Evul is Good for the Soul! - (Ashton) - (1)
                                                                                                             if there was no evil all the cops would be on welfare :) -NT - (boxley)
                                                                     Not over my head. - (Brandioch) - (3)
                                                                         Zoom. - (addison) - (2)
                                                                             You're going to have to do better than that. - (Brandioch) - (1)
                                                                                 Why? - (addison)
                                                     a police cruiser usually - (boxley)
                                 Genoa is a current case. - (addison) - (1)
                                     not my hero's it is an organised - (boxley)
                                 There was a time in the US,... - (a6l6e6x)
                     Puke - (deSitter) - (1)
                         now now - (boxley)
                 Scofflaws are part of the system of checks and balances - (mhuber) - (8)
                     Re: Scofflaws are part of the system of checks and balances - (addison) - (3)
                         Speed enforcement - (wharris2) - (1)
                             Re: Speed enforcement - (addison)
                         Jumping off the slippery slope - (mhuber)
                     After some reflection, I'm going to have to disagree with - (addison) - (3)
                         Not a defence. - (Brandioch)
                         defend mcveigh? - (boxley) - (1)
                             Um. - (addison)

First documented case of homosexual necrophilia in the mallard duck species.
183 ms