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New You're going to have to do better than that.
"But it almost seems like you've realised how badly you thought this through. But the progress might be false."

Because I disagree with your position does not mean that my position is badly thought out.

"No. My focus is unchanged. I already explained before."

Really?

I seem to recall this discussion started about cameras, INSTALLED BY THE GOVERNMENT, being aimed at roadways to monitor traffic speeds and automatically issue tickets based off of registration records.

But I see in your current posting, references to banks (privately owned) aiming their ATM cameras at private property and happening to catch public property in their viewing sector.

But you haven't changed the focus of the discussion at all?

Whatever. I can handle tangents.

I said:
"If they take a picture, they've lost their camera to me."

You replied:
"Which is illegal. Mob rule. Might makes right."

What?

Sorry. But I seem to have missed the mob reference. Are you saying that I have to get a group of people together to take the camera from the person that has violated my privacy? I don't see where _I_ stated such. So it must have been you.

But you aren't changing the focus of the discussion.

My point is ME. My point is MY RIGHTS.

"Picking and choosing what law(s) you want to obey on a daily basis isn't a stable situation."

Okay, simple question. Were the laws allowing slavery "right" or "wrong"?

Another simple question.

Were the people who opposed the laws allowing slavery "right" or "wrong"?

"Society" is NOT ALWAYS RIGHT.

The LAWS of the society ARE NOT ALWAYS RIGHT.

I accept this. And I am free to act upon my beliefs.

Again, I believe that the INDIVIDUAL RIGHTS are the most important.

You do not believe that.

Which does NOT mean that my position is badly thought out.

"*Your* point was that ATMs "only" covered "private" property (when I specifically talked about the ones on the street - which by definition covers the public street)."

Fine. Whatever. If I think the bank is collecting information on me from its cameras I will take them out.

You have not provided any evidence that they are.

But your position requires them to be doing such.

So, let's go with that hypothetical situation.

If I believed the banks were violating my privacy with their cameras, I would take them out.

Note the phrase "If I believed".

Convince me that they are and I will act. Otherwise.......

"So, are you now going to go spray paint over all of the ATM cameras now?"

On the basis of YOUR word that they are? I'm sorry, but you have a seriously over-inflated sense of your position in my belief system.

"You don't have an expectation of privacy on a public street."

You don't.

I do.

That's where we disagree. (and the part about the banks spying on me).

"Deny it all you want, it doesn't change anything. You DON'T have it. Period. Anywhere."

Shall we talk about political prisoners in China?

They don't have rights that we take for granted.

Just because YOU don't think that I have that right, and the laws are not constructed to support that right, does NOT mean that I don't have that right. It's just being violated under the present regime.

Do people in China have the right to protest for democracy?

Well, that depends upon how you define rights.

#1. Are they something that can only be granted by the government?

#2. Are they inherent in the individual?

You seem to believe #1. I believe #2. Again, this does not mean that I haven't thought out my position.

"You're trying to change the focus to "private". We're talking PUBLIC."

No. We're talking about a PRIVATE PERSON in a PUBLIC SETTING.

I still have rights to my privacy while in a public setting.

"And I can take a picture of you."

Yes you can.

"And if you break my camera, you're breaking the law."

Okay, one last time. Freeing slaves was illegal. But it was right.

What you don't seem to be able to understand is that I'm placing a higher value on "right" than on "legal".

Again, freeing slaves. Illegal, but right. Protecting my privacy, illegal, but right.

"If the police put up cameras, and you break them, there's no difference."

Freeing slaves, illegal, but right.

Freeing slaves, illegal, but right.

Freeing slaves, illegal, but right.

Did people who freed slaves spend time in jail? Yes.

Did people who freed slaves spend time in jail? Yes.

Did people who freed slaves spend time in jail? Yes.

Do you understand YET that I'm placing a higher value on RIGHT than on LEGAL?

So I don't care if it is "illegal" or not. Is it "right" or not?

"But any paper in the nation can take a picture of you on the street and run it. On the front page. Even if you don't like it."

And in China, they can jail anyone at anytime for speaking out against the state.

Since when did "legal" equate to "right"?

"Do you remember what my point was?"

Yes.

"That if you want to do something about it, change the law."

Did you read anything in my post? Did you manage to MISS the part where I said that LEGAL is not the same as RIGHT?

Did you miss the part about me believing that "right" is more important than "legal"?

FUCKING OKAY. I ADMIT IT. IT IS ILLEGAL.

IT IS AGAINST THE LAW.

THE LAW FORBIDS IT.

I WILL GO TO JAIL.

SOCIETY WILL INCARCERATE MY ASS.

IT'S BUTT SEX TIME IN THE BIG HOUSE!

ILLEGAL!

CONTRARY TO THE LAWS OF SOCIETY!

ILLEGAL!

I WILL BE ARRESTED!

There, have I managed to convey the fact that I recognize what is illegal and what is not illegal in this country?

Now, let's try one more step.

I

Don't

Care

What

Is

Illegal

If

It

Is

NOT

Right.

If I believe the law is not right I will violate that law. (insert repetative rant about recognizing that I have violated a law and will go to jail if caught violating the laws of society).

"Now you're... telling me... to... Are you sure you're not sleepposting?"

After reading my previous posts, you still feel the need to inform me that I'm going to jail if I break a law, and you think I'm the one asleep? Right.....

"Late Breaking News: Yep. And... Errr. you're the one (see above) advocating breaking any law you don't like."

Yep. You're definately asleep. Yep, I advocate breaking laws that you do not feel are "right" or "just".

Yep, if other people did this, chaos could result, looting, rioting, dogs and cats living in sin.

Oh, you mean people are ALREADY violating laws?

And these people are being sent to jail when they're caught?

Gee. I guess that means..........nothing.

So, if I advocate breaking laws that I don't feel are right, then other people will break laws.

But other people have been breaking laws since before I was born.

But I'm advocating breaking the laws that aren't right.

But others are breaking the laws.

It's a connundrum without a solution.

"*Who's* the one changing focus?"

We start with the government putting up cameras to track vehicles and automate the ticketing system and we end up with you talking about banks aiming their ATM cameras in such a manner that people on the street might be taped.

I'd say it was you who's changing the focus.

"(then you're not looking)"

Okay, I will accept that the banks are aiming their ATM cameras at the streets and deducting the cost of tickets from your account automatically. I do not know of a specific instance of this happening, but if you say it is....whatever.

Re: firebombing cruisers you said:
"I *DID STATE IT AS SUCH*."

Okay, now we're away from banks and drifting towards police activity. Are the cops at the drive up teller in their cruiser when you firebomb it (the cruiser)?

"And I drew the parallel, and asked you to explain the difference. And you are.. telling.. me.. to.. tell you.. what I did?"

The parallel?

If you believe that the cruisers are being used to violate your rights, then take them out.

That is my position.

BUT!!!!!!!!

As I've said before, do not expect support from me for your activities as I do not see how they are being used to violate your rights.

Act upon your beliefs.

But don't even THINK that I will share your beliefs or support you in specific activities.

"Yeah, you'll go to jail. Just like if [should] you destroy a public camera. If you disagree, then tell me, don't tell me the obvious."

Well, at least you finally agree with reality. If I violate a law, I can go to jail.


I said:
"Cruiser - you have to live your beliefs. I don't believe they are the same and I will not support you when you are arrested."

You said:
""My beliefs"? You're the one ripping cameras and stomping on them. You're the one telling me that shooting out cameras and ripping them down is legit."

No I did not. "Legit" implies "legal". I am talking about "right" here.

Do I really HAVE to go through the whole slavery / legal / right / illegal thing again?

"So when I point out an exact analogy - you now are giving me lectures on the law?"

A lecture on the law? What lecture? If you break the law, you can end up in jail. That's a lecture?

"Focus.. Right now, you don't have it. You'e changed your focus at least three times in that post alone."

I have it.

You are the one that went from traffic cameras to bank ATM's to police cruisers to Sean Penn.

My focus has been consistent, my rights take precedence over the laws of society.

You are the one trying to find a flaw in that reasoning by wandering all over the map looking for examples. You brought up the ATM's. You brought up thecruisers. You brought up Sean Penn. I did not.

Re: Cameras in homes:
"No. That doesn't turn it back, its not my argument."

Your point was that the cameras MIGHT film somebody committing a violent crime. My point was, if that was the goal of the cameras, putting them where the crimes are most likely to occure would be the logical procedure.

You sacrifice a bit of privacy for more "security".

What was that quote about rights and security and such?

""Preventing crime" is your strawman, not mine."

Nope. You were the one that claimed the cameras MIGHT film a violent crime. I ddid not. The straw is back in your court.

"I'm *only* discussing *public* images. Public. Crime prevention isn't the focus."

Then do not talk about it in this discussion.

"Having a discussion when the "opposition" isn't even reading what you're posting, much less continuing to make up positions isn't a lot of fun."

I know. But I'm used to it. I just keep repeating the parts that the other person missed. Like when I have to repeat the parts about "right", "legal" and "illegal".

Have I mentioned slavery yet?

What about China? The imprisonment of political prisoners? Did I mention that?

Slavery was legal, but it was right to oppose it. At least, that's what I believer.

And many people who opposed slavery were jailed.

People were jailed for breaking an unjust law.

People acted upon their beliefs and were jailed for such because their actions violed the laws of society.

"So unless you wake up, (or whatever is keeping you from at least staying up with what I'm saying (and not trying to lecture me on what I just said)), I'm not going to try and force you to realise what you're saying."

Again, because I disagree with you does not mean I don't understand your position.

Yes, if people did what I recommended, and some of those people held beliefs such as "ambulances interfere with my rights", then people could be injured.

Or "police cruisers are infringing upon my freedoms". The police would be ineffective against crimes.

Anarchy would result.

Chaos.

So?

You believe that.

I don't. Look at the rights we routinely exercise in this country. Now compare that to China. Are we an anarchistic state? Yet we have more rights. Are our police more or less effective? And so on.
New Why?
I've stated my point, clearly.

You've perverted what I said, tried to change the subject/focus, tossed straw on top of me.

And honestly, you're better at that than I am at countering such things. So perhaps I might have to do "better", but I have "better" things to do with my time than try and keep you on track.

Because I disagree with your position does not mean that my position is badly thought out.

No, it doesn't [necessarily]. However, as evidenced by what you *did* say, its not well thought out, and you're flailing.

But I see in your current posting, references to banks (privately owned) aiming their ATM cameras at private property and happening to catch public property in their viewing sector.

Um.

You're the one who changed the focus to that.

When you said if someone [private person] takes your picture, you'll take their camera. So I asked, given your statement, what you were doing with those ATM cameras on the street? [Notice that I've not changed the focus, but merely asked you if you're doing what you say you will, (destroying the private cameras taking your picture today, on the street) or just talking] And you told me they didn't take pictures of people in public. Then I got you to realise that they do.

Now you're trying to say that I changed the conversation. Sorry, bub. *I* didn't.

I can't *make* you have a logical conversation. I've certainly tried.

And I'm not even going to bother with the rest of your flailing. That's all that you can call it.





I stand with what I said initially.

Its a slippery slope when people break the law, because they feel it unjust.

Because most people who you [may] disagree with, have a "reason" for doing what they do. Legal or illegal. In support, or in violation of the law.

Which is what the "law" is. A codified, single set of rules that [is supposed to] apply to EVERYBODY. If you don't like the law, work on changing it. Breaking it to protest it is said slippery slope. You destroying a camera, a criminal shooting a cop - the distance between those is arguable. I promise you the criminal will have plenty of "justifcation" for his action.

As I pointed out, slashing tires on the police cruisers is about on the same spot on the slope as destroying the cameras.

If you feel the law is so wrong that its worth you spending your life in prison/dying for your beliefs, and you can't get it changed, by all means, by $DIETY, get out there and go wild. There are times when that is needed and required. Or was, and nobody did. (Tim McVeigh felt that to be the case, one might note.)


But when you're talking about breaking the law, destroying public safety equipment to avoid a measly ticket for breaking the speed laws? I won't be there with you., bro, you're going that one, alone.

Addison
     UK's surveillance camera vigilantes! - (Ashton) - (138)
         That's a slippery slope, too. - (addison) - (137)
             "Time and distance" was never allowed in US traffic - (Ashton) - (6)
                 Then it shouldn't be a problem. - (addison)
                 Actually, not to nitpick... - (Simon_Jester) - (4)
                     There is a difference... - (hnick)
                     Also New Mexico... - (Fearless Freep)
                     1992 study of Photo Radar proposal for DC Capital Beltway - (Another Scott) - (1)
                         60%? Right. - (Brandioch)
             what the heck is wrong with scofflaws? - (boxley) - (129)
                 The root word of "justice" is "just". - (addison) - (119)
                     tim mcveigh did obey his own law - (boxley) - (116)
                         And we as a society had a problem with that. - (addison) - (115)
                             in response - (boxley) - (114)
                                 Everybody who's name starts with "B", you're under arrest. - (addison) - (110)
                                     It is a judgement call usually - (orion)
                                     Here's a simple syllogism, if not quite rational enough for - (Ashton) - (2)
                                         mama said to save it until I was married - (boxley)
                                         Yep, that's simple. - (addison)
                                     My slightly radical opinion. - (Brandioch) - (21)
                                         Re: My slightly radical opinion. - (addison) - (20)
                                             Work all angles. - (Brandioch) - (19)
                                                 Re: Work all angles. - (addison) - (18)
                                                     To work the system. - (Brandioch) - (17)
                                                         Work it, bayybeeeee. - (addison) - (16)
                                                             so when you get a letter to show up for yer gps ass chip - (boxley) - (15)
                                                                 You're changing the subject even more. - (addison) - (14)
                                                                     Perhaps you are simply realizing it, less and less? - (Ashton) - (9)
                                                                         Re: Perhaps you are simply realizing it, less and less? - (addison) - (8)
                                                                             It's simple, really - but it won't be, for you. - (Ashton) - (7)
                                                                                 Its only simple if you're stupid. - (addison) - (6)
                                                                                     The issue (for me) is thresholds. - (Another Scott) - (4)
                                                                                         Are we civilised or are we not? - (pwhysall) - (2)
                                                                                             I think you're overstating the case... - (Simon_Jester) - (1)
                                                                                                 Minor correction - (wharris2)
                                                                                         Fishing... - (imric)
                                                                                     Flailing? - (Brandioch)
                                                                     not changing the subject at all - (boxley) - (3)
                                                                         Ya, Bill, you are. - (addison) - (2)
                                                                             ok then lets continue - (boxley) - (1)
                                                                                 Re: ok then lets continue - (addison)
                                     another point of view - (boxley) - (83)
                                         Re: another point of view - (addison) - (82)
                                             sorry - (boxley) - (81)
                                                 I'm going to have to ask you, as painful as it is, to come - (addison) - (80)
                                                     I can handle that one. - (Brandioch) - (78)
                                                         I don't think you did. - (addison) - (77)
                                                             Legallity vs. right. - (Brandioch) - (76)
                                                                 I think the point is going over your head. - (addison) - (75)
                                                                     the point vs pointy head - (boxley) - (70)
                                                                         Re: the point vs pointy head - (addison) - (69)
                                                                             Addison, your laundry called. Your brown shirts are ready. -NT - (DonRichards) - (68)
                                                                                 Um... - (addison) - (67)
                                                                                     Zoom. It goes over his head. - (DonRichards) - (66)
                                                                                         Not really. - (addison) - (65)
                                                                                             Whatever - (DonRichards) - (64)
                                                                                                 Whatever - (addison) - (59)
                                                                                                     You poor dear. Why *of course* your Logic is superior - (Ashton) - (38)
                                                                                                         Re: You poor dear. Why *of course* your Logic is superior - (addison)
                                                                                                         "Reasoning" with your emotions in stead of logic??? - (CRConrad) - (36)
                                                                                                             Now then CRC. We may eventually get this done, - (Ashton) - (35)
                                                                                                                 Not likely. - (addison) - (32)
                                                                                                                     I think that your position is - (boxley) - (31)
                                                                                                                         You really haven't read me in my posts. - (addison) - (26)
                                                                                                                             dont bother with the facts - (boxley) - (25)
                                                                                                                                 You're still missing Addison's point Bill. - (Another Scott) - (24)
                                                                                                                                     I understand the point just disagreeing with it - (boxley) - (16)
                                                                                                                                         No, you don't. - (addison) - (15)
                                                                                                                                             heres another reason (thanx, freep!) - (boxley) - (1)
                                                                                                                                                 Re: heres another reason (thanx, freep!) - (addison)
                                                                                                                                             *sigh* - (imric) - (12)
                                                                                                                                                 That's not what I said. - (addison) - (11)
                                                                                                                                                     What he said: - (imric) - (10)
                                                                                                                                                         Yep. - (addison) - (9)
                                                                                                                                                             Hasn't been done so far? - (imric) - (8)
                                                                                                                                                                 No. - (addison) - (7)
                                                                                                                                                                     Question about recording - (drewk) - (2)
                                                                                                                                                                         Not sure about other places. - (DonRichards) - (1)
                                                                                                                                                                             Heh.. Kinda like the Windoze EULA, no ? - (Ashton)
                                                                                                                                                                     Interesting point. - (imric) - (3)
                                                                                                                                                                         Re: Interesting point. - (addison)
                                                                                                                                                                         Cruiser cams - (wharris2) - (1)
                                                                                                                                                                             And as such, I have no problem with them - (mhuber)
                                                                                                                                     But aren't you eliding the "powers reserved to the people" - (Ashton) - (6)
                                                                                                                                         I don't think so. - (addison) - (5)
                                                                                                                                             Forget.. mobs dressed in black, smashing cameras. - (Ashton) - (4)
                                                                                                                                                 Not the only thing forgotten. - (addison) - (3)
                                                                                                                                                     Once again you speak of The Law, monolithically - (Ashton) - (2)
                                                                                                                                                         What can I say? - (addison) - (1)
                                                                                                                                                             I regret you are taking a characterization of a mindset - (Ashton)
                                                                                                                         I think you might be slightly mistaken... - (bepatient) - (3)
                                                                                                                             Actually, I believe it is illegal to listen in on - (Simon_Jester) - (2)
                                                                                                                                 Isn't recording the problem, cell phone or live? - (drewk) - (1)
                                                                                                                                     And that's my problem with the cameras - (mhuber)
                                                                                                                 Je crois que vous avez misaperc,u cet expression: - (CRConrad) - (1)
                                                                                                                     Re: apres mois le deluge.. - (Ashton)
                                                                                                     I observe, I see a pattern. - (DonRichards) - (19)
                                                                                                         But you didn't, that's the problem. - (addison) - (5)
                                                                                                             I apologize - (DonRichards) - (4)
                                                                                                                 Thanks. - (addison)
                                                                                                                 Wimp! - (deSitter) - (2)
                                                                                                                     Oh, POAD, fuckwit! - (CRConrad)
                                                                                                                     Had? - (DonRichards)
                                                                                                         No, I think it's *you* who are "los[ing] the point entirely" - (CRConrad) - (12)
                                                                                                             All true, as far as it goes. Just too simplistic. - (Ashton) - (11)
                                                                                                                 "Too simplistic"??? That's fucking rich, coming from *you*! - (CRConrad) - (8)
                                                                                                                     So.. you want clarity and simplicity - with 'romantics'? - (Ashton) - (7)
                                                                                                                         Here's why "direct action" is a bad idea... - (pwhysall) - (2)
                                                                                                                             Point taken. and.. Ugh! - (Ashton)
                                                                                                                             Re: Here's why "direct action" is a bad idea... - (addison)
                                                                                                                         No - I want clarity and simplicity *from YOU*, here. - (CRConrad) - (3)
                                                                                                                             inneresting my kids go to a pediatrician -NT - (boxley) - (1)
                                                                                                                                 Yeah - follow the link in Peter's post... -NT - (CRConrad)
                                                                                                                             You've defined a 'clarity/simplicity' which doesn't exist: - (Ashton)
                                                                                                                 Re: Spray painting. - (a6l6e6x) - (1)
                                                                                                                     Small prediction - (Ashton)
                                                                                                 Re: Whatever - (dpeterson) - (3)
                                                                                                     Lighten up. - (DonRichards) - (2)
                                                                                                         Hey.. a little Evul is Good for the Soul! - (Ashton) - (1)
                                                                                                             if there was no evil all the cops would be on welfare :) -NT - (boxley)
                                                                     Not over my head. - (Brandioch) - (3)
                                                                         Zoom. - (addison) - (2)
                                                                             You're going to have to do better than that. - (Brandioch) - (1)
                                                                                 Why? - (addison)
                                                     a police cruiser usually - (boxley)
                                 Genoa is a current case. - (addison) - (1)
                                     not my hero's it is an organised - (boxley)
                                 There was a time in the US,... - (a6l6e6x)
                     Puke - (deSitter) - (1)
                         now now - (boxley)
                 Scofflaws are part of the system of checks and balances - (mhuber) - (8)
                     Re: Scofflaws are part of the system of checks and balances - (addison) - (3)
                         Speed enforcement - (wharris2) - (1)
                             Re: Speed enforcement - (addison)
                         Jumping off the slippery slope - (mhuber)
                     After some reflection, I'm going to have to disagree with - (addison) - (3)
                         Not a defence. - (Brandioch)
                         defend mcveigh? - (boxley) - (1)
                             Um. - (addison)

She's kinda got that "tornado bait before the DingDongs work their magic" look.
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