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New "Time and distance" was never allowed in US traffic
enforcement. Apparently also not in UK ere now. And when ~everyone exceeds arbitrary speed limits, the numbers are deemed low by a vast majority (if the reporter gives an accurate view of that situation) - then there will be civil disobedience. As here - remember '55' ? Those who study driver behavior - repeatedly refer to the RMS speed being an intelligent practical guide to a road's safe 'capacity'. Such stats 'mean' more than flat numbers from initial engineering guesstimates. Your example is rare in my lore - raising a rate VS more fines... but nice.

The cameras are already demonstrating where they are leading: as far as the Authority can manage. UK is just a bit ahead of the Tampa experiment in moving to the long-term data collecting stage. I am so glad that you are happy with the arbitrariness of "49 MPH is Peachy: 51 MPH is $150" - especially when of course, revenue raising has *nothing at all* to do with this enforcement for our comfort and safety. And I guess you'd see nothing wrong with timing you over a 10 mile span - for that 1 mph, that all-important number?

Exact speed is an easy thing to measure - but has little to do with competent driving. So we decide to make it so arbitrary as +/- 1 mph = innocent/guilty (of something?) no matter What the conditions. For convenience of Authority and $-collection, not for sane enforcement of sensible driving. And we all know this.

We ever opt for the simplistic solution and apparently - many will accept the 'speed tax', rather than raise $ another way - as, empowering police to exercise prof. judgment and tag the really dangerous drivers, whose actions often have little to do with vehicle speed - just ego and dumbth. Fairer would be more expensive. What's 'fairer' worth?

Meanwhile we shall each continue weighing the odds as we see them. (100% compliance with arbitrary laws would measure both a Puritan and a post-mortem society. We haven't died fully, yet)

New Then it shouldn't be a problem.
If its not allowed, then there shouldn't be an issue, since its not legal.

Someone other than I will have to discuss that, however.

then there will be civil disobedience.

And there should be penalties for that.

Preferably, the reason would be addressed. Vandalism isn't a method of treating the root cause. If I don't like you, do you want me to key your car door? Break your windows?

I am so glad that you are happy with the arbitrariness of "49 MPH is Peachy: 51 MPH is $150"

What's arbitrary about that? Some speed limits are, but more often I find they're fixed for other reasons, such as consistancy. "Officer, I didn't know what the speed limit was *on this road*".

Exact speed is an easy thing to measure - but has little to do with competent driving.

Its got something, yes. When a 16 year old who jsut got his license roars by me at 110, I'm pretty sure he's NOT COMPETENT. And I want him to get ticketed.

So we decide to make it so arbitrary as +/- 1 mph = innocent/guilty (of something?) no matter What the conditions.

Damn, those are some good cameras you've got there in the UK, Peter.

They're able to track people across the country, and figure out based on time, the speed, with a margin of error less than a MPH!

The law says you don't drive over a speed. If you drive over that speed, you're in violation of the law.


People had a problem with 55. Its been changed.

They didn't just go cut down ever 55 MPH Speed Limit sign, they didn't destroy public property, jus because they wanted to break the law, they didn't destroy police cruisers.

They changed the law, to something that was more sensible.

We ever opt for the simplistic solution ... ego and dumbth

I've said it before, I'd be careful with those words you sling around. Better check the mirror.

You're the one with the problem, with the police using tools at their disposal, to punish people breaking the law. I'm not certain you can call someone else dumb, or has an inflated ego.

So... when someone breaks into your house (breaking the law), what tools will you allow the police to use to find the criminal?

New Actually, not to nitpick...
But time and distance measure are used in US traffic. At least in Florida where the police have been known to use light planes to watch over the traffic. From timing how long it takes a car to go from point A to point B, they figure speed and then alert the 'wolfpack', several officers a mile or so down the road via radio.
Stainless steel traps breed stainless steel rats.
New There is a difference...
between measuring time between short distances (approx 0.1 miles usually) and over a long stretch of road. Any speed measurement is some change of distance over some time increment. Monitoring somebodies whole trip and figuring out whether they might have been speeding is harassment (in my jaundiced viewpoint of course...) Then, of course, I don't really think that it is proper in a free society to use the police departments as a profit center either...

Yeah, I know... it's legal...


New Also New Mexico...
....where I've seen the road markers the planes use to calculate, and Illinois, where I was caught in such a setup
Jay O'Connor

"Going places unmapped
to do things unplanned
to people unsuspecting"
New 1992 study of Photo Radar proposal for DC Capital Beltway
is here:


Beware, it's 300 kB or so (140 pages of text)...

It's got some interesting history (e.g., time-and-distance was used to catch speeders in NY in 1902 - times were relayed between officers 1 mile apart), a summary of the legal arguments for and against photo radar, statistics about speeding and accidents on the Beltway, experiences of photo radar use in Paradise Valley, AZ and Pasadena, CA, a small study of photo radar in the VA area, and recommendations and proposed laws for VA and MD.

It's an interesting read.

While they have a survey which says that around 60% of drivers would approve of the use of such a system, and while there are traffic cameras all around it, there's not as yet a photo radar system on the Beltway.

New 60%? Right.
60% might approve. That is, until they get their first ticket in the mail.

     UK's surveillance camera vigilantes! - (Ashton) - (138)
         That's a slippery slope, too. - (addison) - (137)
             "Time and distance" was never allowed in US traffic - (Ashton) - (6)
                 Then it shouldn't be a problem. - (addison)
                 Actually, not to nitpick... - (Simon_Jester) - (4)
                     There is a difference... - (hnick)
                     Also New Mexico... - (Fearless Freep)
                     1992 study of Photo Radar proposal for DC Capital Beltway - (Another Scott) - (1)
                         60%? Right. - (Brandioch)
             what the heck is wrong with scofflaws? - (boxley) - (129)
                 The root word of "justice" is "just". - (addison) - (119)
                     tim mcveigh did obey his own law - (boxley) - (116)
                         And we as a society had a problem with that. - (addison) - (115)
                             in response - (boxley) - (114)
                                 Everybody who's name starts with "B", you're under arrest. - (addison) - (110)
                                     It is a judgement call usually - (orion)
                                     Here's a simple syllogism, if not quite rational enough for - (Ashton) - (2)
                                         mama said to save it until I was married - (boxley)
                                         Yep, that's simple. - (addison)
                                     My slightly radical opinion. - (Brandioch) - (21)
                                         Re: My slightly radical opinion. - (addison) - (20)
                                             Work all angles. - (Brandioch) - (19)
                                                 Re: Work all angles. - (addison) - (18)
                                                     To work the system. - (Brandioch) - (17)
                                                         Work it, bayybeeeee. - (addison) - (16)
                                                             so when you get a letter to show up for yer gps ass chip - (boxley) - (15)
                                                                 You're changing the subject even more. - (addison) - (14)
                                                                     Perhaps you are simply realizing it, less and less? - (Ashton) - (9)
                                                                         Re: Perhaps you are simply realizing it, less and less? - (addison) - (8)
                                                                             It's simple, really - but it won't be, for you. - (Ashton) - (7)
                                                                                 Its only simple if you're stupid. - (addison) - (6)
                                                                                     The issue (for me) is thresholds. - (Another Scott) - (4)
                                                                                         Are we civilised or are we not? - (pwhysall) - (2)
                                                                                             I think you're overstating the case... - (Simon_Jester) - (1)
                                                                                                 Minor correction - (wharris2)
                                                                                         Fishing... - (imric)
                                                                                     Flailing? - (Brandioch)
                                                                     not changing the subject at all - (boxley) - (3)
                                                                         Ya, Bill, you are. - (addison) - (2)
                                                                             ok then lets continue - (boxley) - (1)
                                                                                 Re: ok then lets continue - (addison)
                                     another point of view - (boxley) - (83)
                                         Re: another point of view - (addison) - (82)
                                             sorry - (boxley) - (81)
                                                 I'm going to have to ask you, as painful as it is, to come - (addison) - (80)
                                                     I can handle that one. - (Brandioch) - (78)
                                                         I don't think you did. - (addison) - (77)
                                                             Legallity vs. right. - (Brandioch) - (76)
                                                                 I think the point is going over your head. - (addison) - (75)
                                                                     the point vs pointy head - (boxley) - (70)
                                                                         Re: the point vs pointy head - (addison) - (69)
                                                                             Addison, your laundry called. Your brown shirts are ready. -NT - (DonRichards) - (68)
                                                                                 Um... - (addison) - (67)
                                                                                     Zoom. It goes over his head. - (DonRichards) - (66)
                                                                                         Not really. - (addison) - (65)
                                                                                             Whatever - (DonRichards) - (64)
                                                                                                 Whatever - (addison) - (59)
                                                                                                     You poor dear. Why *of course* your Logic is superior - (Ashton) - (38)
                                                                                                         Re: You poor dear. Why *of course* your Logic is superior - (addison)
                                                                                                         "Reasoning" with your emotions in stead of logic??? - (CRConrad) - (36)
                                                                                                             Now then CRC. We may eventually get this done, - (Ashton) - (35)
                                                                                                                 Not likely. - (addison) - (32)
                                                                                                                     I think that your position is - (boxley) - (31)
                                                                                                                         You really haven't read me in my posts. - (addison) - (26)
                                                                                                                             dont bother with the facts - (boxley) - (25)
                                                                                                                                 You're still missing Addison's point Bill. - (Another Scott) - (24)
                                                                                                                                     I understand the point just disagreeing with it - (boxley) - (16)
                                                                                                                                         No, you don't. - (addison) - (15)
                                                                                                                                             heres another reason (thanx, freep!) - (boxley) - (1)
                                                                                                                                                 Re: heres another reason (thanx, freep!) - (addison)
                                                                                                                                             *sigh* - (imric) - (12)
                                                                                                                                                 That's not what I said. - (addison) - (11)
                                                                                                                                                     What he said: - (imric) - (10)
                                                                                                                                                         Yep. - (addison) - (9)
                                                                                                                                                             Hasn't been done so far? - (imric) - (8)
                                                                                                                                                                 No. - (addison) - (7)
                                                                                                                                                                     Question about recording - (drewk) - (2)
                                                                                                                                                                         Not sure about other places. - (DonRichards) - (1)
                                                                                                                                                                             Heh.. Kinda like the Windoze EULA, no ? - (Ashton)
                                                                                                                                                                     Interesting point. - (imric) - (3)
                                                                                                                                                                         Re: Interesting point. - (addison)
                                                                                                                                                                         Cruiser cams - (wharris2) - (1)
                                                                                                                                                                             And as such, I have no problem with them - (mhuber)
                                                                                                                                     But aren't you eliding the "powers reserved to the people" - (Ashton) - (6)
                                                                                                                                         I don't think so. - (addison) - (5)
                                                                                                                                             Forget.. mobs dressed in black, smashing cameras. - (Ashton) - (4)
                                                                                                                                                 Not the only thing forgotten. - (addison) - (3)
                                                                                                                                                     Once again you speak of The Law, monolithically - (Ashton) - (2)
                                                                                                                                                         What can I say? - (addison) - (1)
                                                                                                                                                             I regret you are taking a characterization of a mindset - (Ashton)
                                                                                                                         I think you might be slightly mistaken... - (bepatient) - (3)
                                                                                                                             Actually, I believe it is illegal to listen in on - (Simon_Jester) - (2)
                                                                                                                                 Isn't recording the problem, cell phone or live? - (drewk) - (1)
                                                                                                                                     And that's my problem with the cameras - (mhuber)
                                                                                                                 Je crois que vous avez misaperc,u cet expression: - (CRConrad) - (1)
                                                                                                                     Re: apres mois le deluge.. - (Ashton)
                                                                                                     I observe, I see a pattern. - (DonRichards) - (19)
                                                                                                         But you didn't, that's the problem. - (addison) - (5)
                                                                                                             I apologize - (DonRichards) - (4)
                                                                                                                 Thanks. - (addison)
                                                                                                                 Wimp! - (deSitter) - (2)
                                                                                                                     Oh, POAD, fuckwit! - (CRConrad)
                                                                                                                     Had? - (DonRichards)
                                                                                                         No, I think it's *you* who are "los[ing] the point entirely" - (CRConrad) - (12)
                                                                                                             All true, as far as it goes. Just too simplistic. - (Ashton) - (11)
                                                                                                                 "Too simplistic"??? That's fucking rich, coming from *you*! - (CRConrad) - (8)
                                                                                                                     So.. you want clarity and simplicity - with 'romantics'? - (Ashton) - (7)
                                                                                                                         Here's why "direct action" is a bad idea... - (pwhysall) - (2)
                                                                                                                             Point taken. and.. Ugh! - (Ashton)
                                                                                                                             Re: Here's why "direct action" is a bad idea... - (addison)
                                                                                                                         No - I want clarity and simplicity *from YOU*, here. - (CRConrad) - (3)
                                                                                                                             inneresting my kids go to a pediatrician -NT - (boxley) - (1)
                                                                                                                                 Yeah - follow the link in Peter's post... -NT - (CRConrad)
                                                                                                                             You've defined a 'clarity/simplicity' which doesn't exist: - (Ashton)
                                                                                                                 Re: Spray painting. - (a6l6e6x) - (1)
                                                                                                                     Small prediction - (Ashton)
                                                                                                 Re: Whatever - (dpeterson) - (3)
                                                                                                     Lighten up. - (DonRichards) - (2)
                                                                                                         Hey.. a little Evul is Good for the Soul! - (Ashton) - (1)
                                                                                                             if there was no evil all the cops would be on welfare :) -NT - (boxley)
                                                                     Not over my head. - (Brandioch) - (3)
                                                                         Zoom. - (addison) - (2)
                                                                             You're going to have to do better than that. - (Brandioch) - (1)
                                                                                 Why? - (addison)
                                                     a police cruiser usually - (boxley)
                                 Genoa is a current case. - (addison) - (1)
                                     not my hero's it is an organised - (boxley)
                                 There was a time in the US,... - (a6l6e6x)
                     Puke - (deSitter) - (1)
                         now now - (boxley)
                 Scofflaws are part of the system of checks and balances - (mhuber) - (8)
                     Re: Scofflaws are part of the system of checks and balances - (addison) - (3)
                         Speed enforcement - (wharris2) - (1)
                             Re: Speed enforcement - (addison)
                         Jumping off the slippery slope - (mhuber)
                     After some reflection, I'm going to have to disagree with - (addison) - (3)
                         Not a defence. - (Brandioch)
                         defend mcveigh? - (boxley) - (1)
                             Um. - (addison)

She's like a little piece of shrapnel inextricably lodged in the body politic.
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