Post #391,845
7/11/14 5:53:46 PM
|
How do *you* 'skim' 50,000 Documents? (as may be a low-ball estimate too)
Of course the 'released' numbers would escalate==how long would You Take? to "scan-for-comprehension", Fifty Thousand (length-unknown) DOCUMENTS? (or maybe quite more?) Red Herring and.. cherry-picked, n'est ce pâs, mon frere? :-| (Are you thus, unreliable?) :-0 (But loved.. The central doctrine of Christianity, then, is not that God is a bastard. It is, in the words of the late Dominican theologian Herbert McCabe, that if you don’t love you’re dead, and if you do, they’ll kill you. --Terry Eagleton
It is impossible for me to say in my book one word about all that music has meant in my life. How then can I hope to be understood? --Ludwig Wittgenstein
The opposite of poverty is not wealth; the opposite of poverty is justice. --Bryan Stevenson
If it be fearmongering to demonstrate original-Documents as confirm the correctness of the view that Spies are both insatiable and incorrigible.. Lay On Mac Duff. Muricans (especially) do not 'See' anything unless hit-in-head with 2x4 to momentariy case a few moments of Attention: these data demand Attention. What's your beef? I'll give you.. 'impatient S.O.B.!' +5 ... on that "8 months in.." ;^> but I think that he may not have been out-of-order.. to sanely detect that: ~~ Hmm, this Silver-tongued Orator hasn't even reversed-the-slope of those egregious trends; by Jove I think he may be in-Love with that trend.. why.. who Is? this guy.. But too short of a span to support that conjecture. 7/11/14 however: conjecture supported Are you calling prescience 'prematurity' then? There's a lot of acquiescence-if-not-outright ideological support for various Repo aims, in BHO actions. But at least he's not bat-shit-nutzo nor an overt Reactionary. Mike may have been prescient in '08, re BHO's Wallstreet-suffused 'ordinariness-despite-the rhetoric'. But there was no possible also-sane alternative, (Given no believable lie-detector yet)--we're forever stuck with this crap-shoot in picking people to have Way-more Power than any homo-sap Can handle, both with alacrity/and wisely [pick one.] Nodoby knoze any way around this, yet. Eternal vigilance? Hah! on Sci Fri yesterday, a lengthy essay about people who will self-administer an electric shock--via a button--rather than sit. quietly. in a room for FIFTEEN MINUTES! (males especially) sans personal gadgetry of any kind. Contemplation? Solitude? … are now anathema!? What do that Mean?? I realize you Can't reverse the now planet-wide race to capture every e-/transmitted bi-ped thought ... anytime soon: too much momentum. But what that portends is so obviously Evil that, it Will be quashed or we will be Quashed. Doubt I'll see any unmistakeable inflection point, so,
What, Me Worry? (Now you, OTOH.. Worry-at-will, eh?) Remember too, you ain't got no future excuses ex-post-facto) because you Know-right-now, that: I = I0 • ekT (Teller got That-one exactly Right, and it's coming near-to Q.E.fscking-D. as epitaph-in-stone.) ;^>
|
Post #391,849
7/11/14 7:14:47 PM
|
It's not reading them all, it's counting.
I think the point of the TellTaleHeart guy was that Greenwald apparently couldn't count. Or he felt the need to increase the number everytime a new story needed to come out. In either case, it's not a way to build confidence.
Winders is pretty good at counting the number of files in a directory. ;-) Greenwald should have been able to, easily, report an accurate number and stick to it.
It's part of the mystery of this whole exercise, it seems to me. Nobody forced Snowden to say that he made $200k a year. Nobody forced him to say that he could read the President's e-mail. Nobody forced Greenwald to say he had 10,000, er 20,000, er 50,000 documents from Snowden.
When you want to convince someone of something sensational, or maybe even incredible, it's important to get the checkable details right. Credibility matters.
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence," C. Sagan.
Maybe Greenwald is right and I'm all wet. We'll see.
:-)
Cheers, Scott.
|
Post #391,854
7/11/14 10:37:48 PM
|
Point taken, if he can't get the 'total #files' count right.. or didn't.
Trouble with that simple metric: you don't know how many files are on the same topic/issue/case--whatever. I presumed from the start, that these were random dumps-of-opportunity--all unsorted, thus sans reading Content, you don't even know what you've got! In that vein, it's not clear to me: if the "#-rating' from the first was being attached to (n-files; n=?) or n-Topics. He might well have conflated both meanings, at convenience [not a Good sign], but to me that #files seems a useless metric--sans any explanation of the hierarchy of these data.
That he's no Ellsberg is evident, but you can't pick your whistleblower via academic record; GG may be more unlovely than my estimate, but unless there's a soupçon of evidence suggesting any file-alterations-for-effect? the real Point remains what it was from Day 1, IMO:
Do [we] choose-to/want-to/would Vote.. to? support THIS LEVEL of planet-wide snoopery? And as is inseparable: [Even if 'we' said we do] should the US or any nation be allowed to escalate spying INFINITELY??--because we already know, that that Is the target of NSA. Because: Terrierism.
A policy which has: already made the US Official-torturers, manipulators (across many subjects and across every Scale) and, increasingly caused us to be dubbed: Rogue State.. even among erstwhile 'friends' (upon whom we also spy incessantly and thoroughly.) The entire Galaxy knows about the crimes of the Shogunate, and also sees that our sanctimonious 'Nation of Laws' rubric is superseded by our hypocrisy: when we're the perp.
tl;dr? US Citizens NEEDED TO KNOW that which has been released already and--elided where people might die and similar/justifiable levels-of-worry?--maybe even more of this stash. It's just another Means -vs- Ends enigma. Let a Secret-Government Rule means: Citizens don't, probably ever again. Mr. General, President-for-Life: shall it be Soylent Yellow or Green today?
You may be right in your disdain for GG's character. But for me, Need-to-Know trumps all arguments about ''National Security" as becoming More *Important? than the Founding Documents' version of 'America' and the population's civil Rights, in all dimensions. * Ever to say that the Military-Intelligence-Industrial Complex is 'more important' signifies that MIIC (along with the 0.01%) Rule-Absolutely. That's not 'America', then: it's Papa Doc saying, Trust Me!--I'm all you got.
Maybe the highest-scale question remains: is self-government even tenable? as population continues its inexorable rise and 0-efforts to curtail. (Maybe that one's for 9-11-2021? ... We didn't get an answer by 9-11-2011, I noticed.)
Fasten seat-belts, it's gonna be a bumpy ride for the foreseeable, eh?
|
Post #391,855
7/11/14 11:00:49 PM
|
ProPublica's take as of August 2013.
FAQ. There have been a lot of news stories about NSA surveillance programs following the leaks of secret documents by Edward Snowden. But it seems the more we read, the less clear things are. We've put together a detailed snapshot of what's known and what's been reported where. Note the small numbers: Watching a specific person like this is called “targeting” by the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, the law which authorizes this type of individual surveillance. The NSA is allowed to record the conversations of non-Americans without a specific warrant for each person monitored, if at least one end of the conversation is outside of the U.S. It is also allowed to record the communications of Americans if they are outside the U.S. and the NSA first gets a warrant for each case. It’s not known exactly how many people the NSA is currently targeting, but according to a leaked report the NSA intercepted content from 37,664 telephone numbers and email addresses from October 2001 to January 2007. Of these, 8% were domestic: 2,612 U.S. phone numbers and 406 U.S. email addresses. (Emphasis added.) Note the extensive use of "can" rather than "did" and the like. (But also note the sloppy use of "you".) Note the changes since Bush's time. Note the difficulty in separating US from foreign. Note the warrant requirement for individualized spying on US persons. Note the technological and legal restrictions. Yes, people need to know what the NSA is doing and Congress needs to do its oversight job. Sensible restrictions need to be put in place, and people inside and outside the 3 letter agencies need to know and understand those restrictions. People also need to understand the present implications of using encryption software, and if they choose to do so, its limitations. But, contra Greenwald and Snowden, the NSA isn't spying on everyone. My $0.02. Cheers, Scott.
|
Post #391,872
7/12/14 5:32:20 PM
|
Agree, those are minuscule numbers of official examples. There's more; Much-more.
(Yes, probably most daily work is done via the Rules, currently (if not always before: as ProPublica notes in their useful compilation of factoids.) Etc. Etc. Since this exact topic has arisen in other venues, with many exchanges, shall try to address our real?/imagined? clashing POVs. Lengthy, though: But there's hope that we can cut-out much future rhetoric on this permanent topic, en fin?). (No time today to cut out some repetition/Style's a bitch-goddess.) I've been pondering implications beyond the appearances of how this agency does/does not actually 'operate' today: but 'next', and attempting to see that in perspective of so much that is "irregularly-irregular", not only in the zeitgeist, but in our present inability to project--with any confidence--(and quite unlike the scenario of Potiphar Breen's statistical dilemma!) an idea of what some 'incipient chaos'? might provoke. This, from the angle of how political Power is usually exerted--and often precipitated by--'Emergencies' (genuine or manufactured.) You are hand-waving away a seeming- tamed Tyrannosaurus (whose mien is that of a house-pet with a good vocabulary.) As he plays well with the other house-pets, with nary a quiver or clue about how tasty each of these would be, instinctively.. we are advised to accept this docile view that he's just a kinda Big-raccoon (or maybe ferret?--that's what he's kept around for) and, our Friend forever. We are talking past each other; you are offering reassurance that, the System today is properly staffed, properly overseen and Properly Directed--via these quite sane-sounding rule sets. I'm saying that, like Rumpelstiltskin's magnificent … but obvious … ploy: you are nailing-down the Obvious in this forest-of-trees, barely addressing the huge implications, the n-capabilities of near-instant morphing and especially: the Realities of how people-with-great-Power Will act to preserve, enhance (or otherwise defend) their perquisites, cf. all history libraries: that reptile brain is only a few mm away-from the rational face for public iconography. (Not just in Murica, either: though.. well, you. know.) You elide my concern and its basis: the mere fact-of-existence! of this unprecedented, perpetually expanding/perpetually refining System. And its potential usage, especially: should an 'Emergency' happen?/be declared. The combination of extreme scope (that's what unprecedented means) extreme secrecy (which is Not the same word as 'security', let alone all the BS-rhetorical obfuscations of Security-Theatre) abetted by all sorts of 'Classification neologisms' quite beyond Eyes Only, Top Secret of yore. It's designed to be impenetrable-to … (any 'outside Forces', let-alone Reasoned debate.) Hence my brickbat about insufficient perspicuity or perhaps a tendency to dismiss-early a particular POV, because such imaginations are also the playground of so many nutters of paranoid kind. (To that serious conflation I can only reply that … enough paranoia? over the machinations of the neoconmen + Cheney (+ that now permanently-disgraced General) might not have compensated for the mediocre-mind of Shrub/himself: but I think it unarguable that the entire Planet would be immeasurably saner, less conflicted and with FAR-better chances of survival, as we speak: had more than a mere handful said STOP! This Race to a land-war in the most unstable, utterly religio-confounded place on the planet!This 'System' cannot be examined at all IMO without peering well into the philosophical implications of such a Power- creating, altering, enforcing! 'Device'. I'd welcome your rebuttal to this angle of view; I'm more than curious about how easily you seem to have dismissed that angle and its mares-nest of sub-angles. (However tmi to find out: I'm thinking that we may not be so far apart as it appears, so long as our [referents] are made clear enough.) So it just may be worth it to see we are at least in same Chapter: when the Scale of matters is extended beyond the stated, official "utility" of this System -vs- variant-intentions about its employment: especially as strife is just one misplaced air-strike away--for all players in today's hair-trigger milieu--that trigger often operated by Religio-fanatics who recognize-not their own bestiality and whose minds are as closed as in any marlowes (many dreaming of 17 virgins as they slaughter. Dunno what marlowe ever dreamed-of??) I see this entire System for what it means: a multiplier of Power: political, social, financial: all corruptible by humans. That is the theme of the classics as have become cliches, re the homogenization, next regimentation.. then subjugation of the majority of worker-bees by [whatever clique has won the last revolution or coup?] Metadata by the yottabyte (and perpetually expanding, refining, encompassing)--we know what you can do with metadata, whatever were? the originally intended rules and oversights. We need to see this Before … some event precipitates/or is claimed to precipitate: a change in the entire focus of the System aka a Re-Purposing.Via its new Owner (and however that new one got there.. and, for how long?) In sum: the full potential of this System can/probably-will be invoked, for all obvious reasons of consolidating and next wielding all-the-new-Powers of a [perhaps sElected, again?] President/C-inC, junta (or 'temporary'-Regent?) Hey, It Happens! even with fewer seeming-insoluble Issues than our current dis-USA's (never-mind "the Planet's prognosis?" where human egos dwell.) We already see why This System bloody-well had Better-be! competently overseen! perpetually. … As-if.. What I see is: an Edifice, constructed for un-tellable $Bs (much of those details Secret/diffused elsewhere too) and expanding--as the techno does, thus with new capabilities, thus.. an illimitable-process … except via funding as the Real-limit. Why should one ƒeare such a creation? you. ask. implicitly. Metaphors are less wordy: What I also see: is conceptually akin to the Doomsday Device (yes, in that rollicking send-up of modrin man's warfare-gene/repetitively in-charge.) Strangelove's McGuffin was a bomb: physical destruction via radiation effects. This one is a bomb too; its fuze is: any next chaotic human circumstance. This 'Thing' is malleable, extensible, perfectible: but it all comes down to how that explosive-Power is actually used (today, and in any next.) This could be deemed, at worst--mere paranoid dystopian fantasy--were our current expectations: ~more of the same as recent past. Here we may diverge in assessing probabilities; we'll see. I deem that, like this System, unprecedented--the dis-USA's near-(or far-) future has never been as unfathomable as now (not even on Dec. 6th 1941; we'd broken the Japanese code quite earlier.) [Abetting say, forces-toward -chaos? may be the subtler observation that, 'governance itself' may be in jeopardy: in our case, the 'President' IMO is in a situation like, 'TFFO' re cycles: Too Fast for Owner. (Any 'owner'.) Not just our dilemma: that worry is about 'governing of hundreds of millions'--now being faced by all the hugely-overpopulated places.. India, China, Russia at al.] [If you remain comfortable with the Power-of-secret-things: withstanding all political processes, indefinitely (?) then this also is only a scary, also perpetual mere What-if? matter..] But I'm not comfortable with either Secret-massive-Power(s) or with any supposition that our near-future shall bear much resemblance to our recent-past; all one need do to arrive here is: examine the roster of 100 Important Matters we (and most others) are either ignoring, 'misunderestimating' or Denying-existence-of, to test this hypothesis. Well? Is this the spot for: Wondermark??If only rhetoric next addresses the ludicrous division of the National Spoils of our own peculiar strain of capitalism? What then? (Already the inflation rate of decent food quite surpasses those fanciful official, 'averaged' numbers.) I hear from pensioners, especially those trying to pay rent and eat too--that corporate supermarket fare is escalating similarly; could give some local #s but even-more tmi. We'll have to agree to disagree as to the stability, predictability--and limits of legal-compliance--as we watch 'governability' go wherever it does. D'overai ni proverai and like that. You appear to trust not only today's performance of secret bureaucracies and their Boss(es), but also expect that tomorrow's crises won't alter where you've placed your faith. (This, while having a much better grasp of the present and future capabilities of this (System? Albatross?) than what, 95% of the population?!) I see the success of bin-Laden, abetted by the Shogunate's ignorant decisions and all which has led to today's dysfunctionality, (such that neither shall there be any authentic redress of the division of profits nor, attention to most of the other 99 on that List of crucial matters unaddressed. We aren't Adults! here.) While the 'NSA Albatross' might be adequately inspected, corralled, overseen just-now.. 'might be' (we aren't really sure of even that) I deem that its Potentialities, combined with the dysfunction of most-all US "governance" AND this power-magnifier of-an-individual, the President (and all he retains control-over) … is a confluence capable of creating an Inflection-point, one currently under-most-radars and: that is a Bad. Thing. It could be a Decisive thing, via only some next utterly-unpredictable event. This is why I think that this unprecedented-System is an Albatross, should not have been constructed and, because it Works: adds unmeasurable (and accelerating-->) new-Powers to the Executive and n-Agencies. It is hard to imagine that any citizen-plebiscite could, alone--overturn/cancel/remove it ... already. Were Martial Law ever declared--under whatever pretext--The Device (this entire system) could quickly be re-purposed: alacrity! is its raison d'etre. And from a national or planetary overview: all would learn (or experience) what it means: that so much personal data--however once sequestered--might be used. (And not just 'the personal data' … as that 'cyberwarfare'-pit-of-death gets its first real Test.) Rest case. Make it Go Away. If you can.
Visiting Ferrenghi checks out Earth's I.Q.--finds it puerile (but admires the cra$$ness: +5)
|
Post #391,874
7/12/14 8:23:17 PM
|
Sorry I've neglected your points before.
This is a tough topic with lots of nuance required, it seems to me. It's hard to address all the issues you've brought up, but I'll try here. (Yes, probably most daily work is done via the Rules, currently (if not always before: as ProPublica notes in their useful compilation of factoids.) Etc. Etc.
Since this exact topic has arisen in other venues, with many exchanges, shall try to address our real?/imagined? clashing POVs. Lengthy, though: But there's hope that we can cut-out much future rhetoric on this permanent topic, en fin?). (No time today to cut out some repetition/Style's a bitch-goddess.)
I've been pondering implications beyond the appearances of how this agency does/does not actually 'operate' today: but 'next', and attempting to see that in perspective of so much that is "irregularly-irregular", not only in the zeitgeist, but in our present inability to project--with any confidence--(and quite unlike the scenario of Potiphar Breen's statistical dilemma!) an idea of what some 'incipient chaos'? might provoke. This, from the angle of how political Power is usually exerted--and often precipitated by--'Emergencies' (genuine or manufactured.) "The future looks obscure," as some scholar once said. :-) One could imagine a future where GCHQ and the NSA have a terrible time trying to intercept signals intelligence. Various quantum effects can be used to determine whether a message has been intercepted or tampered with in transit. If such techniques are perfected, it will change the communications-privacy vs. intelligence equation. Will it mean that governments will give up collecting intelligence and doing secret things? Of course not. You are hand-waving away a seeming-tamed Tyrannosaurus (whose mien is that of a house-pet with a good vocabulary.) As he plays well with the other house-pets, with nary a quiver or clue about how tasty each of these would be, instinctively.. we are advised to accept this docile view that he's just a kinda Big-raccoon (or maybe ferret?--that's what he's kept around for) and, our Friend forever. I'm sorry it comes across that way. I recognize the dangers - really I do. I don't like the idea of President Cruz having such an apparatus at his disposal, either. Where I differ is with the usually unstated beliefs that: 1) Any weapon or technology will ultimately be used, and usually used in ways that will do tremendous damage - up to genocidal levels of damage. I don't accept that. 2) Data collection and "spying" by the NSA on Americans, at whatever level, with or without a warrant, is more important than any other public policy issue now because it is fundamentally different than any other civil rights issue. I don't accept that. 3) It doesn't matter what the laws and regulations and procedures are that govern the operation of the NSA. We cannot trust them. The "deep state" that is being constructed by the NSA and international security agencies it too big and too powerful to be controlled. I don't accept that, either. We are talking past each other; you are offering reassurance that, the System today is properly staffed, properly overseen and Properly Directed--via these quite sane-sounding rule sets. I'm saying that, like Rumpelstiltskin's magnificent … but obvious … ploy: you are nailing-down the Obvious in this forest-of-trees, barely addressing the huge implications, the n-capabilities of near-instant morphing and especially: the Realities of how people-with-great-Power Will act to preserve, enhance (or otherwise defend) their perquisites, cf. all history libraries: that reptile brain is only a few mm away-from the rational face for public iconography. (Not just in Murica, either: though.. well, you. know.)
You elide my concern and its basis: the mere fact-of-existence! of this unprecedented, perpetually expanding/perpetually refining System. And its potential usage, especially: should an 'Emergency' happen?/be declared. The combination of extreme scope (that's what unprecedented means) extreme secrecy (which is Not the same word as 'security', let alone all the BS-rhetorical obfuscations of Security-Theatre) abetted by all sorts of 'Classification neologisms' quite beyond Eyes Only, Top Secret of yore. It's designed to be impenetrable-to … (any 'outside Forces', let-alone Reasoned debate.) A police state doesn't live in isolation. A police state that doesn't arrest or murder its critics on a vast scale; doesn't throw poets and artists in prison; etc., isn't much of a police state. If President Cruz wants to declare a State of Emergency and lock up his critics, he doesn't need the NSA to do it. He just needs compliant local police departments. He can buy, or demand, information from Yahoo or Google or Verizon or Wal-Mart or Brett Glass if necessary. Having a reigned-in NSA won't protect us from abuses like that. I'm much more worried about a President Cruz destroying the civil rights of my fellow humans, destroying the economy, getting us involved in yet more wars, destroying the environment, and destroying the commons, than him reading my e-mail. Greenwald and Snowden paint this picture of some all-seeing eye that will suck the freedom out of everyone. But they don't connect the dots to the people who would use that power. People who would do such a thing will do it with or without an NSA at their beck and call. Hence my brickbat about insufficient perspicuity or perhaps a tendency to dismiss-early a particular POV, because such imaginations are also the playground of so many nutters of paranoid kind. (To that serious conflation I can only reply that … enough paranoia? over the machinations of the neoconmen + Cheney (+ that now permanently-disgraced General) might not have compensated for the mediocre-mind of Shrub/himself: but I think it unarguable that the entire Planet would be immeasurably saner, less conflicted and with FAR-better chances of survival, as we speak: had more than a mere handful said STOP! This Race to a land-war in the most unstable, utterly religio-confounded place on the planet! An intelligence system that is able to get accurate information about what is happening outside our borders is a vital tool for keeping the paranoids like Perle and Addington in line. The politicization of the intelligence was the problem - not having an agency whose job is to gather and distill foreign signals intelligence. This 'System' cannot be examined at all IMO without peering well into the philosophical implications of such a Power- creating, altering, enforcing! 'Device'. I'd welcome your rebuttal to this angle of view; I'm more than curious about how easily you seem to have dismissed that angle and its mares-nest of sub-angles. (However tmi to find out: I'm thinking that we may not be so far apart as it appears, so long as our [referents] are made clear enough.) The US needs foreign signals intelligence. That need is not going to go away, and it gets more difficult every day. It's too difficult to know a priori what is US and what isn't. Yes, the NSA (and other agencies) need to follow the rules about getting warrants. And Congress needs to do its oversight job. It'll be interesting to see how the NSA evolves in a world of cheap quantum cryptography - if that ever happens... So it just may be worth it to see we are at least in same Chapter: when the Scale of matters is extended beyond the stated, official "utility" of this System -vs- variant-intentions about its employment: especially as strife is just one misplaced air-strike away--for all players in today's hair-trigger milieu--that trigger often operated by Religio-fanatics who recognize-not their own bestiality and whose minds are as closed as in any marlowes (many dreaming of 17 virgins as they slaughter. Dunno what marlowe ever dreamed-of??)
I see this entire System for what it means: a multiplier of Power: political, social, financial: all corruptible by humans. That is the theme of the classics as have become cliches, re the homogenization, next regimentation.. then subjugation of the majority of worker-bees by [whatever clique has won the last revolution or coup?] Metadata by the yottabyte (and perpetually expanding, refining, encompassing)--we know what you can do with metadata, whatever were? the originally intended rules and oversights. We need to see this Before … some event precipitates/or is claimed to precipitate: a change in the entire focus of the System aka a Re-Purposing. I hope it's clear from the above that I see things differently. The NSA supplies intelligence - it's not an agency that makes policy or acts on its findings. If one is concerned about violations of our liberties and rights, and we all are, then I think ire directed at the NSA is misplaced. I worry about yahoo sheriffs like Arpaio. I worry about legislatures that try to gerrymander their way to permanent power and who write restrictive voting rules. I worry about religious and economic ideologues in positions of power that refuse to let science and evidence inform the policies they wish to impose on us. Such people don't need an NSA to be a threat to us. Via its new Owner (and however that new one got there.. and, for how long?) In sum: the full potential of this System can/probably-will be invoked, for all obvious reasons of consolidating and next wielding all-the-new-Powers of a [perhaps sElected, again?] President/C-inC, junta (or 'temporary'-Regent?) Hey, It Happens! even with fewer seeming-insoluble Issues than our current dis-USA's (never-mind "the Planet's prognosis?" where human egos dwell.) We already see why This System bloody-well had Better-be! competently overseen! perpetually. … As-if..
What I see is: an Edifice, constructed for un-tellable $Bs (much of those details Secret/diffused elsewhere too) and expanding--as the techno does, thus with new capabilities, thus.. an illimitable-process … except via funding as the Real-limit. Why should one ƒeare such a creation? you. ask. implicitly. Metaphors are less wordy: What I also see: is conceptually akin to the Doomsday Device (yes, in that rollicking send-up of modrin man's warfare-gene/repetitively in-charge.) Strangelove's McGuffin was a bomb: physical destruction via radiation effects. This one is a bomb too; its fuze is: any next chaotic human circumstance. This 'Thing' is malleable, extensible, perfectible: but it all comes down to how that explosive-Power is actually used (today, and in any next.) See above. :-) This could be deemed, at worst--mere paranoid dystopian fantasy--were our current expectations: ~more of the same as recent past. Here we may diverge in assessing probabilities; we'll see. I deem that, like this System, unprecedented--the dis-USA's near-(or far-) future has never been as unfathomable as now (not even on Dec. 6th 1941; we'd broken the Japanese code quite earlier.)
[Abetting say, forces-toward -chaos? may be the subtler observation that, 'governance itself' may be in jeopardy: in our case, the 'President' IMO is in a situation like, 'TFFO' re cycles: Too Fast for Owner. (Any 'owner'.) Not just our dilemma: that worry is about 'governing of hundreds of millions'--now being faced by all the hugely-overpopulated places.. India, China, Russia at al.]
[If you remain comfortable with the Power-of-secret-things: withstanding all political processes, indefinitely (?) then this also is only a scary, also perpetual mere What-if? matter..] See above. :-) But I'm not comfortable with either Secret-massive-Power(s) or with any supposition that our near-future shall bear much resemblance to our recent-past; all one need do to arrive here is: examine the roster of 100 Important Matters we (and most others) are either ignoring, 'misunderestimating' or Denying-existence-of, to test this hypothesis. Well? Is this the spot for: Wondermark??
If only rhetoric next addresses the ludicrous division of the National Spoils of our own peculiar strain of capitalism? What then? (Already the inflation rate of decent food quite surpasses those fanciful official, 'averaged' numbers.) I hear from pensioners, especially those trying to pay rent and eat too--that corporate supermarket fare is escalating similarly; could give some local #s but even-more tmi.
We'll have to agree to disagree as to the stability, predictability--and limits of legal-compliance--as we watch 'governability' go wherever it does. D'overai ni proverai and like that. You appear to trust not only today's performance of secret bureaucracies and their Boss(es), but also expect that tomorrow's crises won't alter where you've placed your faith. (This, while having a much better grasp of the present and future capabilities of this (System? Albatross?) than what, 95% of the population?!) Dystopia is certainly possible. But it won't be dystopia because of spying by the NSA... Have a read of The Handmaid's Tale if you haven't already. I see the success of bin-Laden, abetted by the Shogunate's ignorant decisions and all which has led to today's dysfunctionality, (such that neither shall there be any authentic redress of the division of profits nor, attention to most of the other 99 on that List of crucial matters unaddressed. We aren't Adults! here.) While the 'NSA Albatross' might be adequately inspected, corralled, overseen just-now.. 'might be' (we aren't really sure of even that) I deem that its Potentialities, combined with the dysfunction of most-all US "governance" AND this power-magnifier of-an-individual, the President (and all he retains control-over) … is a confluence capable of creating an Inflection-point, one currently under-most-radars and: that is a Bad. Thing. It could be a Decisive thing, via only some next utterly-unpredictable event. Again, I don't see it. 9/11 and Iraq and the rest weren't a disaster because of the NSA - they were a disaster because W and his people refused to listen to evidence. Police states have existed for hundreds of years without things like the NSA. All it takes is a ruthless ruler and compliant police. Ubiquitous spying isn't necessary, and all the evidence we have (even from Snowden) is that the NSA isn't spying on everyone and it's impossible for them to do so in the way he and Greenwald want us to believe. They don't have enough people, they don't have enough money, and there's too much information for them to sort through even if they wanted to. We all have "1984" in the back of our minds. Cameras everywhere, ubiquitous spying, ubiquitous informants. Scary stuff. But we're not there, and we're not on our way there by having an NSA that is doing its job. This is why I think that this unprecedented-System is an Albatross, should not have been constructed and, because it Works: adds unmeasurable (and accelerating-->) new-Powers to the Executive and n-Agencies. It is hard to imagine that any citizen-plebiscite could, alone--overturn/cancel/remove it ... already. Were Martial Law ever declared--under whatever pretext--The Device (this entire system) could quickly be re-purposed: alacrity! is its raison d'etre. And from a national or planetary overview: all would learn (or experience) what it means: that so much personal data--however once sequestered--might be used. (And not just 'the personal data' … as that 'cyberwarfare'-pit-of-death gets its first real Test.) What's the alternative? Seriously. The US government needs the best information possible on what is happening outside our borders. It is information that is needed for treaty negotiations; to help prevent international conflicts; to help prepare for and prevent man-made disasters; and, yes, to catch evil-doers before they can do their evil. If we suddenly say, "The NSA cannot touch any US person's communications or information about them, not even accidentally!", well, given the way the Internet works, it means that the NSA cannot collect signals intelligence any more. If we say, "The NSA cannot break or put back-doors in encryption used by Americans!", well, it means that everyone in the world who wants to communicate in secret, for any reason, will do it through the US. "So what! The NSA should get a warrant!" They do (except when they have apparently wiggled around that requirement). I agree that the NSA should get a warrant to look at individualized information about US persons. I don't see a problem with the "metadata" collection and data retention, myself, as long as they are required to get a warrant to at it for a particular person. Why don't people get as upset by Verizon having all that information??) Rest case. Make it Go Away. If you can. The NSA isn't going to go away. The NSA serves a legitimate function. Just as we don't argue that police forces should be abolished after reports of abuse, we can't (and won't) get rid of the NSA even as their capabilities evolve and improve over time. Let's keep our eyes on the ball. The NSA is a small problem (that can and should be addressed in sensible ways, but given the composition of the House, ...) - it's about #12 on the list of important issues we face now. My $0.02. (I haven't had time to proof-read this - I hope it is clear. Gotta work on some plumbing now - wish me luck!) Cheers, Scott.
|
Post #391,878
7/13/14 5:47:26 AM
|
Luck! on the plumbing.. always there's a Gotcha..
Thank you for the effort of lucid commentary. I'll ponder several of the IF..THEN..s you have raised. We seem to be in the same chapter, mostly. Concur with (that which I omitted--the sub-category of ethics-free Bizness needing attention similar to NSA. OK maybe even sooner, as: I trust many Govt. Agencies quite over any corporate-speak, on any serious topic.
I think you've convinced me--not that NSA's potential mischief isn't vast, or that they are ever to be presumed innocuous--but that, looking today: some other dis-USA issues, while much more diffuse, are more urgent than cutting NSA's BW back from infinity (overseas, that is: given that the entire species would have to reach adulthood before any tribe could trust any other tribe.) Apparently, not this millennium either.
[Wouldn't you just Hate It, to be forced to a conclusion that: your very-own species! shall never reach Adulthood? almost identically to the basic plot of Blade Runner? (but with a wry twist: We are the Replicants!. The issue is not 'pre-programmed-death-times' but maybe [I say: surely] worse: pre-programmed perpetual adolescence! ] Think about the trade-off: does it really matter if you exit life at year-X? (always unknown, also subject to the Laws of Chance) -vs- realizing that you'll never experience what, say, Being an Authentic adult human! ... might have been like! :-/
At home, however--logistics of scanning everyone/all-the-time, being too expensive anyway--your argument prevails re encryption back-doors and {sigh} much of the ugly (J. Edgar?) Hoovering of jillions of 99.999% useless messages. BUT.. only ever: via, even redundant-Overseers reliably catching each other's oversights--is that even possible?:
If I've learned anything from IWE troops, it is that Anything in digital-storage-form Can be hacked; merely can the difficulty be made huge via eternal vigilance against a constantly innovating antagonist. So there Will be some costs, and we can merely hope that Protectors remain forever ahead-of their nemeses. Probabilities again.
Overall, then: I take your arguments for forebearance? to be logical and reasonable-enough: but only under the rubrics of Probability, Risk-Reward, ROI; categories (such as, coincidentally (??) drive bizness decisions: where every Thing and non-Thing is "monetated".) I'm unsure what that means (especially the ROI category: as is the final Decider (!?) on the scope of future digital intrusions into all natural Life on the planet. (That which we dominate, have plundered and only consider Seriously after it has bitten-us-on-the ass, or is clearly about-to, soon.)
[Reluctantly, I have been forced to the conclusion that: V-capitalism's koans have permeated from mere culture-related artifacts, into areas quite more important than, who can conspicuously consume-More than the next guy? thus into the 'framing' of matters involving humans, which are much more important to our innate-humanity, where different values should apply. Were we more sane, generally. V-capitalism may just prove to have been the single-most-easily identifiable cause of our failure to become more humane, less crass and more really-social creatures.. as used to be considered a sign of Progress. (Not a digression)
Thus your rationale--for all its logic and small-r reason--concerning behavior which I deem to be bat-shit-craziness on unprecedented-Scale: fails to convince me that I need to re-examine-away, that which I cannot: that it IS bat-shit-craziness and that 'our' tolerance of that confounding-reasoning is really aberrant behaviour of the ilk: "..just the way things are and-we-can't-change-that because it's just-what-we-must-do."
The Bizness parallel I take to indicate that neither my instinctive nor emotional centers are broken: but the above doggerel IS broken (It's doggerel only because it is circular) and sadly.. circular justifications for many hideous next-actions/reviews-as excuses-for previous hideous ones, are today not uncommon. (Cause or Result? Stimulus or Response?--as they query students in Aberrant Psych 201)
(Are you getting this down or do I need to make it longer/shorter or more legible?) I guess we aren't quite-Done with this topic, except near-term. No sarcasm intended in my agreement with many of your deductions, nor do I accuse you of facile-think: your methodology is certainly clearer--always-- than the abysmal-norm of disingenuous Pol-speak with which we are daily inundated.
Guess I'm not clever enough to parse the Idiocy down through the Id, Ego, Super-ego (and that oft-absent Conscience-function?) We still don't have the foggiest 'where' Consciousness 'resides'--really, the boffins concur--We Don't! But to whatever degree I possess any Consciousness: this rampant Super-spying is as Serious an unwanted-techno-driven ... Regression for humanity, as was the first Used-nuke. (It just doesn't make any fireworks in the sky.)
Again, thanks for your clarity--I think it has evoked a few other realizations re the dimension of self-delusions behind perpetual religio-warz-across-Centuries and.. about the current disintegrations across-the-board locally--as surely tells us: that (and why?) our very-own Winner-Takes-All bizness mindset needs quite more Attention than--whether liff begins at Zygote-stage? or whether it be true that, He who is not One-up is.. One-down. [Yep, it's a Play! ya Takes-home what ya can Get-out (of it.)
I trust that we can declare this marathon enlightenment interlude a Success: both ~Win (?)
(I see that this enigma shall be invading-away the more preferred pastoral-dreams, as it simmers away within the only mode where daily mind-work ever gets sorted-out: the zzzzzzz-State. That could be Good or Bad.
|
Post #391,882
7/13/14 11:37:20 AM
|
Thanks. No leaks so far!
I needed to replace a 3-valve shower/tub faucet. I've gotten tired of replacing the valves every 5 years or so, and it's impossible to keep clean. I collected all the parts over the past couple of weeks and started on it last night. Of course, I had to enlarge the holes through the tiles for the valves ( Pferd TiN Coated Carbide Burs for the win!). And I had to figure out which torch head to use for how long with the Mapp gas cylinders I have. I soldered in a couple of 1/4 turn ball valves, and all the rest. I'm not happy with the mounting of the new tub spout. It uses an O-ring sealed plastic sleeve that slides over the 1/2" copper pipe (thus a threaded fitting doesn't have to be just the right length and the orientation of the thread doesn't have to be perfect), but it's held in place by a "grub screw" that grips the pipe. Of course, in our case the spout is very close to the tub so there's little room for a screwdriver. I'll have to see if I have a right-angle screwdriver that will work... I spent about 6 hours on it last night. Still have to flush everything and hope that the connections above the ball valves don't leak... (I hate plumbing, but after seeing things like this (4:00), I wasn't willing to consider calling a plumber. I've got 2 more to do - it should be faster next time. A single-valve retrofit was under consideration, but the valves are too close to the tub and wouldn't fit without having to redo 50 year old tile and that isn't on the agenda now.) Anyway... :-) [Wouldn't you just Hate It, to be forced to a conclusion that: your very-own species! shall never reach Adulthood? almost identically to the basic plot of Blade Runner? (but with a wry twist: We are the Replicants!. The issue is not 'pre-programmed-death-times' but maybe [I say: surely] worse: pre-programmed perpetual adolescence! ] Think about the trade-off: does it really matter if you exit life at year-X? (always unknown, also subject to the Laws of Chance) -vs- realizing that you'll never experience what, say, Being an Authentic adult human! ... might have been like! :-/
At home, however--logistics of scanning everyone/all-the-time, being too expensive anyway--your argument prevails re encryption back-doors and {sigh} much of the ugly (J. Edgar?) Hoovering of jillions of 99.999% useless messages. BUT.. only ever: via, even redundant-Overseers reliably catching each other's oversights--is that even possible?: Abuse is possible in any system. Any system that is large enough is guaranteed to have some people who don't follow the rules, or who work around the spirit of the rules. It doesn't change the legitimate need for information that only a system like that can provide. Yeah, it's disheartening that we don't learn sensible lessons from history and science, and we continue to let ourselves be led by people who appeal to our lizard brains. We know what we should do, but rarely do it consistently. Progress is slow and jerky. Maybe some new Internet with impossible-to-forge headers, impossible to re-route packets, and so forth, will arise to make US/non-US information distinctions foolproof. Perhaps quantum encryption will make spying on Internet traffic impossible. Perhaps some clever code will make these arguments moot. Perhaps, but I doubt it. There will always be other communications routes that need to be checked. Maybe Brin's Transparent Society is the way to go, (and ubiquitous cameraphone video does help protect people from police abuses) but it's not obvious. We gotta watch the watchers, and the watchers of the watchers. It's not easy. Gotta run. Have a good Sunday! Cheers, Scott.
|
Post #391,894
7/14/14 5:55:21 AM
|
Anent tub/shower plumbing: GMTA
I punted; watched local contractor guy do the work. He and I had redone roof, strengthening the (not just pretty, this 'trim') whole-roof surround-fascia rather than replacing with thin/original: a palpable, er.. foot-able vast improvement in its solidity: from wriggly to solid. So he did replacement of ancient tub guts with new one, with temp-feedback and such. THEN ... surprise! while the instruction sheet was for the 'purchased item'. Alas.. some mofo had switched boxes; paid for the cheaper one and left me with a bare-bones model. BASTARD! But I, we both weren't paying enough Attention before.. just blindly following instructions.
(Ever have anything like that 'happen to you?')--note how we always phrase personal-dumbth passively.. :-0 Amazingly, the mfg (Price-Pfister), who just-conceivably was the source of a mis-boxed item, was utterly copacetic. (Boxes were not Sealed!) First, they had suggested a possible retro-fix kit, which would take care of the (single-knob) shaft-length problem. After brief discussion they offered also to have the right valve installed! by a local. I (guess I..) was so shocked at this kind offer that, I 'was-put-into' {note passive tense {sigh} *Good-guy mode" and said.. to just send along the kit and I'd see how satisfactory it might be. * Note: I was envisioning the stuff M. went through, via back-access from within a closet; the possibility of damaging the bitchin new large-tiles--me hates oodles of tiny squares, where grout==major %area, so these are 8x10". Used a Dremel tool: beautiful (hidden!) holes. Moral? none. Inertia won; saw I didn't need the fancy temp-control--thus joined you with the periodic guts-swaps. 'The thought/offer was the deed'. Worth-it! for a shining example of a non-predatory Corp ..because: endorphins. (Let no good deed go unpunished--works often.)
As to the more trivial matters of speciecide (and our differing Hair-on-Fire response-criteria) I no idea how (even millions of) sane people can counter the race-to-seppuku of the many-more sleepwalkers. Whether or not V-capitalism could be nailed as a major catalyst, in maintaing the egregious coalesced-Greed of the tiny-few (world-WIDE, that is)--even though: Both factions! out-number the perps by embarrasingly-decisive orders of magnitude. Fact/events prove that the sane are losing ground (despite their also outnumbering the extreme-crazies.) Even that ratio is slipping in dis-US as amateur-crazies increase in numbers well into the bat-shit degree.. In M.E. though: it seems that the sane are frequently silent, (or reliably cowed--by 'tradition', thus--to survive) rarely act effectively--remain out -shouted/-gunned by the utterly suicidal religio-besotted, (whole ~monolithic tribes of these.) Seems that neither of us sees any algorithm to guide, within such an unbalanced mix of the full-batshits: behaving like the worst psychopaths of that early-'30s training ground ..for expedited disintegration. Nor does anyone else--with any Power--see.
Por moi, I feel no incentive to change my focus from, one-cat-at-at-a time (instant results: that one gets to live!) for.. any serious emotional investment in 'rescuing some remnants of?' what appears to be inexorable species-wide Madness. (After all, if you can't save homo-saps from themselves? Save something!) I deem my core-responsibility to be ~ to maintain sanity and observe what I can--curiosity is more than the name of a rover. I refuse to try to empathize-with legions of crazies, nor be influenced by some species-jingoism? That is a sure-path to the aforementioned (and, I say: to unnecessary-suffering, of the sentimental-ilk; that which makes Prozac mfgs. rich, currently.)
Given the paucity of some new, intelligent idea (only seeming impractical, because never tried) like a worldwide plebiscite?--doable now via transistors--our prospects are grim. The habit of euphemisms forever eviscerates the few simple messages needing Σ-tabulated answers. Questions like, A) Would you prefer to live a natural life here/on this planet. now and next? B) Leave early, for the place you expect that your [god, whomever] will provide? C) Whichever is your choice, in the interim: will you next promise not to try to kill anyone--whichever option they chose? D) All those who decline C), please form a line to the right.
..and like that. Even I could do a dozen--we could get great/simple prose and.. maybe get-on with addressing a few other changes for planetary maintenance. At very least: we would Know for the very first time: just exactly what %pop ARE bat-shit crazy. So next planning would also be a First: a next plan based on actual Fact about the species and its chances. Without this quality of information and via what-we-always-do: Ultimately we're back-to: Kill him before he kills you. Really, all that's left is this, with euphemisms prohibited.
;^>
[Earlier: at the 'Creation Museum' with guide on Tech Nation/NPR--encapsulates the Murican-wing of the Taliban et. al.] No words. (They have their own referents for all of ours.) He goes on to explain the "IFG" (in brain) and what we've gleaned re HOW we decide to be optimistic/pessimistic (!) says, "you can shut down the L-side/the optimistic one"--heh, still in experimental-stage. Describes e- and mag, field experiments-on-self. Surely relevant--in Spades. Maybe the outcome could be: Techno Rides in to Save the Day from weird-homo-saps in decline: lots cheaper than a cel-fone? World saved.] (Perhaps Moira Gunn should talk to some National Labs re deflectiong some talent towards that cel-fone-like magic-optimism-simulator (after-all, our very-own John Dewey always chose the pragmatic solution,)
|
Post #391,900
7/14/14 12:16:41 PM
|
It's not a tough topic with a lot of nuance
|
Post #391,904
7/14/14 4:23:59 PM
|
The people with the files seem to think so...
After all, they didn't just dump them on an FTP site or set up a new WikiLeaks for them.
;-)
But, yeah, "nuance" was probably the wrong word.
Thanks.
Cheers, Scott.
|
Post #391,907
7/14/14 5:20:16 PM
|
Maybe there is no cogent rebuttal.. when a 'thing' has reached that uncommon stage
wherein the viscera are directly-connected-to [the Instinctive, Emotional and Rational brain-modules] in a rare unanimous-Decision of all the little "i"s running around loose inside: This whole Idea is rotten to the Core! is thus bad for children and all other living things until it is erased --however a one rationalizes 'need'/convenience?/perpetual, and perpetual-war histrionics and, as ever: We Have Always Been at War with Oceania--to coin a phrase.
Yeah, I Know: that's not enough either--the whole world so often caves to Cant, that.. we all walk lopsided--but the brain filters that out, so nobody notices the slope. :-) (That.. perception==all ... Pafnuty Chebyshev filter?) Betcha $10 ya didn't know his first name! ain't that a pip?
;^>
..did I just hear a wounded horse 'moan'? (it wasn't a whinny) :-0
|
Post #391,992
7/16/14 12:30:34 PM
7/16/14 12:33:41 PM
|
A better illustration of police-state-type behavior [see new thread]
|