Can I trust this?

Post #209,869 by ben_tilly 6/5/05 12:11:00 AM Reply	Can I trust this? OK, I know I can't, I'm just trying to figure out where I'm going to get screwed. I'm looking for a car. (Funny things about commuting in LA, you need a car to do it in.) At the Toyota dealer I've been quoted prices on a Toyota Corolla SE ($12,919 after $300 rebate) and Toyota Camry LE ($15,819 after $1000 rebate) that according to Consumer Reports are below what the dealer is paying. Heck, even if they rip me off of the rebate, the price isn't half-bad on either. I suspect that when I go back tomorrow I'll find that the "sales cars" for the Toyota Camry have all been "sold". I also strongly suspect that the sales rep was expecting to upsell me and add some features that I don't care about. What else might I be missing? Cheers, Ben PS For various reasons we haven't discussed financing yet. Mainly because I don't want to say, "I'm thinking of cash" and then have them negotiate harder up front. I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
Post #209,870 by Another Scott 6/5/05 12:36:33 AM Reply	Dunno, but seems pretty low. Assuming you don't have a trade-in to worry about (where they could try to make up the difference), you still probably need to see the final bottom-line price before you know whether it's as good as it seems. I assume they'll charge you a processing fee and maybe an advertizing fee. Around here that adds another few hundred $. Those prices do seem pretty low. The cheapest 2005 Camry LE I've seen in browsing online at carmax.com is $18k - $700 rebate). But for some reason, the price on Corollas didn't really change much in the 1990s (my wife's 1993 and her parents' 1999 cost about the same - ~ $12k), so maybe you can get one for $13k. How does the salesman seem otherwise? If s/he seems slimy it's unlikely that s/he'll be doing you a favor. If s/he seems great, s/he may still be sharpening a shiv to stick in your back... It might be worth it to get several quotes via Edmunds.com or a similar site. How's the dealer reputation? Some people do get good deals in their car shopping. Maybe he likes you or is terrified of you. ;-) Luck! Cheers, Scott.
Post #209,871 by ben_tilly 6/5/05 1:02:24 AM 6/5/05 2:08:30 AM Reply	No trade-in Good tip on the fees. I have the feeling that there will be a few "extras" that creep in. The lady selling me the car seems friendly, though I've already caught her using a number of the tricks from How to Buy a Car. (Sale good for one day only..somehow I managed to get that extended. Pushing me for commitment. Pushing me for information that I don't want to provide...) Cheers, Ben PS The dealer claims on their website to have 75% of their business be repeat customers. I don't trust that, of course. I know people who have bought from there who were happy, but that was buying a Prius, which simplifies the negotiation a lot. (In these parts you're paying full sticker price.) I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother) Edited by ben_tilly June 5, 2005, 02:08:30 AM EDT Expand All History
Post #209,872 by broomberg 6/5/05 1:17:36 AM Reply	No Did you get it in writing? I just spent an evening with a car dealer. He said a competing (same brand) dealership would tell people that their payment was $250 a month, until the moment of signing. They would have the car for a week, and go to make the deal. It would jump to $400 a month, and everyone would apologise for the confusion. This would piss off the customer, and they would end up at his dealership to make the deal. He was $400 a month as well, but he'd tell them the truth. Said it happened 20 times a month! It was good for him, but the other dealership complained to the factory that he was stealing their deals, so he had to deal with the hassle.
Post #209,873 by ben_tilly 6/5/05 2:05:18 AM Reply	Thought not :-) I have the prices jotted down by the sales rep on a business card. Which is obviously going to not be very binding if there is any dispute. I could have tried to get something more solid. However I really didn't want to start negotiating without coming home and doing some research overnight. Plus I was hungry and it was dinner time. And I figure that I can just walk out later when I find the catch. Of course before I take any car off of the lot I'll have something in writing. :-) Cheers, Ben I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
Post #209,876 by pwhysall 6/5/05 3:01:07 AM Reply	Can you get a written quote? Over here, a proper, written quote is legally binding. Peter [link\|http://www.ubuntulinux.org\|Ubuntu Linux] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Post #209,877 by ben_tilly 6/5/05 3:12:01 AM Reply	It is here as well...but there are ways around that... I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
Post #209,879 by pwhysall 6/5/05 3:22:48 AM Reply	Troof. These are CAR DEALERS we're talking about, after all. Peter [link\|http://www.ubuntulinux.org\|Ubuntu Linux] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Post #209,881 by Ashton 6/5/05 4:17:56 AM 6/5/05 4:22:46 AM Reply	Maybe - (From kibitzing re some deals done by a local savvy car buyer) What dealer Really pays is elusive, what with special kickbacks, breaks on 'flooring' expense (the interest to sorta take ownership of a plethora of new vehicles) and similar. So there may be more perks in the so-called 'dealer cost' than meets the eye (even CU's). I also suspect that, with all the info on the web - we may expect new 'innovative' obfuscations, escalating regularly. Think you're dead-on re mum's-the-word on actual payment scheme. Get it down to exact bottom line, after you've scanned the list for unwanted add-ons (like special undercoating, paint 'treatments' and the like). Don't know enough about the face-face choreography of this part of the dance to be sure, but -- you might have to play along briefly with their suppositions re financing, as the 'Closer' will likely (try to) intersperse such refs. with other Q&As. S/He may force you to lie / to evade her own dissembling, as I gather - you've gathered. (Most likely your salesdroid Will have to pass you on to a Closer, BTW - it's almost a catechism. Bet those guys train with the people who train in jury massaging for the guilty-but-rich.) Break a leg . . . and ... Zooooom ---> PS FWIW - My AZ friend just got an '05 Corolla a few months back; I drove it while in LA. Dunno exact version, but her model doesn't have the larger? hotter engine. I'm pretty merciless about sloppy handling or bad QC -- found only that the clutch action was unacceptably abrupt - she will have to deal with them on that, when there's time. Overall, I deemed that ride felt like a longer wheelbase car - which is a good design trick to bring off. Even this lesser-engine was OK with freeway accel, quiet, etc. (Thought they went a bit nutzo with the overdone aluminized plastic in headlight pods; similar nonfunctional artsyness in rears, but WTF .. others are doing this silly stuff, too.) Edited by Ashton June 5, 2005, 04:22:46 AM EDT Expand All History
Post #209,901 by ben_tilly 6/5/05 10:14:53 AM Reply	Am I being too picky? I found that I never really got comfortable in the Corolla. I was much happier in the Camry. (Remember, I'm 6'3"...) I'm not sure if that's because it really didn't fit me, or because I'm used to a larger car (Subaru Outback). I think that I'll negotiate on the Camry, being willing to switch to the Corolla. As for their true cost, true enough. I don't really know. But given that CR is what I have, CR is what I'll use. Cheers, Ben I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
Post #209,903 by pwhysall 6/5/05 10:48:26 AM Reply	That depends. How long and how frequently are you going to be in this car? I'm of similar height to you, and rejected a number of cars outright last time around because I couldn't get the driving position right, or the clutch was too light, or the pedals were too close. I bought the car I bought because I'm in it every single day for not less than an hour and 20 minutes (often more, sometimes much more), and I refuse to compromise (within reason) on the pleasure that driving CAN be. Bigger cars aren't necessarily concomitant with comfortable driving positions for tall folk. I could get supremely comfy in SWMBO's Matiz (3-pot 800cc buzzbox) but can I get comfy in a Mondeo? Can I, hell. Seats where you can alter the tilt are handy; in conjunction with reach/rake adjustment on the steering wheel, this should give you the flexibility to sit the way you want. You're about to spend a lot of money on something that will be a significant feature in your life; you are doing the right thing by making sure you get the one that's right for you. Peter [link\|http://www.ubuntulinux.org\|Ubuntu Linux] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Post #209,911 by ben_tilly 6/5/05 11:29:02 AM Reply	Right. I just hate spending money. And don't have the time this time around to buy used. :-( Cheers, Ben I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
Post #210,004 by Ashton 6/6/05 5:15:25 AM Reply	Re: Right. I just hate spending money. Pity that, re 'used'; while the new Toyota Avalon appears to be >> price range (and also recently improved, over a basically bulletproof, comfy OK-handling mid-size car) - the older models have close-enough the same qualities; were not so Popular, thus - better buyer's market. Camry is/was always Popular, ergo less is to be gained used/clean (We found this the case with the Integra purchase -- it made no sense to buy a 1-3 yo used one, at the time.) All smart car buyers eschew the New, of course.. but time may be your deciding factor, and no one should (could ;-) argue that with you. Concur with the observations re what YOU like, not only in er, clearance-room - but in adjustments being flexible enough to accommodate more than one driving position. But as was also suggested - this isn't necessarily as much about car size, as it seems: bigger isn't always a better assortment of driver's space + adjustability. (I, for one - would rate +5 for EZ seat height adjustment; wouldn't consider absence of, at least tilt, in addition to fore/aft as all supply. 'Course you need a tad of headroom to go with that..) Some have adjustable lumbar support - I know someone who Won't ride in a seat sans that - or brings own pillow. In that regard, you might want to take another jaundiced but sanguine? look at the humble Corolla's actual adjustment range + clearances, ignoring the outside sheet-metal. If that dealer proves to be too skanky - there are oodles. Commodity yada. Luck with the Sharks, moi
Post #209,907 by broomberg 6/5/05 11:16:08 AM Reply	Don't do it You make too much money to buy a car too small for you. You will be stuck in traffic. You will be uncomfortable. For long periods of time. Every moment stuck in traffic, in a cramped car, you'll be kicking yourself (mentally, could not do it physically, too tight)). This is YEARS of pain. Add the inevitable occasional head smash. It WILL happen in a small car. Add the fact the Camry is probably safer (have not bothered too look it up though). For what? For $3K difference. Divide it over the hours of pain, and it will be well worth it. If you negotiate, do it with the attitude of leaving and buying a different brand, not merely dropping down a level and buying from the same dealer. Maybe they make more the on the Corolla! Also, have you figured out the baby seat choreography? Really difficult in a small car. How's your back? Gonna get worse. Also, political issues arise. If you are in an office of people, and you have the smallest car, you will never be asked do drive for lunch or meetings, which you may think is a good thing. You would be wrong though. There is a subtle power dynamic that comes into play when you are the driver of the group, especially if the group includes your boss or co-workers in another department. Make use of it. Rack up the brownie points and favors owed. No one would ever admit that they favored you in a decision for something so silly, and it would not be conciously, but every little bit of leverage helps.
Post #209,909 by ben_tilly 6/5/05 11:27:39 AM Reply	Good points I agree with all except the one about driving people. The usual lunch crowd needs 5 people. My boss drives a minivan. If we take multiple cars, there's a BMW and an Acura with leather seats that get taken. I'm not getting a car as nice as either of those. I can offer to drive, but I'm unlikely to have people accept. As for the baby seat, I informally measured. It looks like there is room. But the seat isn't quite as comfortable. About how long I'll spend in this, the answer is "too much". At least an hour and a half per week day. :-( Cheers, Ben I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
Post #209,914 by broomberg 6/5/05 11:53:51 AM Reply	Just be a reasonable alternative A Camry is comfy enough, a Corolla is not.
Post #209,910 by Another Scott 6/5/05 11:27:40 AM Reply	Don't choose between sizes based on price. That is, I think you want the dealer to give the best price on the car you want, not to get a car for the lowest price. Presumably you're going to have it for a while, and presumably you can afford either. You want to pick the car that fits your needs best. Don't let them decide what car they want to sell you. If you try to bargain with them on price between 2 different cars, you lose sight of the real goal. A friend at work has a 2004 Corolla. He's about 5'10", maybe 150 pounds. It's a pretty decent car and fits him pretty well, but I don't think that someone as tall as you would be happy with it for very long. It's rather tall and narrow compared to the previous models. The Camry would fit you much better. It would be a much better car for a growing child too. Ditto on Peter and Barry's comments. You're going to be sitting in whatever car you get for a significant fraction of the next few years. It should be comfortable for you. Cheers, Scott.
Post #209,883 by boxley 6/5/05 8:11:42 AM Reply	If you are paying cash ask the sales person for a bottom dollar price INCLUDING sales taxes, documetation fees an delaer prep. Then tell them that you are comparing prices with other dealers. They all have the same joss stick to work with so you will find the one most needy to sell you the car. thanks, Bill All tribal myths are true, for a given value of "true" Terry Pratchett [link\|http://boxleys.blogspot.com/\|http://boxleys.blogspot.com/] Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 48 years. meep questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #209,917 by a6l6e6x 6/5/05 12:24:06 PM Reply	Re: "tell them that you are comparing" Good idea! Around here, GM cars are advertised to sell at GM employee discount prices. They are that desperate. Sales of GM, Ford and Daimler-Chrysler [link\|http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000080&sid=aW5h5.OZBIoE&refer=asia\|are way down]. But, I'm not sure GM makes anything comparable to a Camry. Alex The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. -- Bertrand Russell
Post #209,920 by boxley 6/5/05 12:42:18 PM Reply	I didnt even look at GM even tho I get the discount having rented a lot of them I dont like the way they handle at all. thanx. bill All tribal myths are true, for a given value of "true" Terry Pratchett [link\|http://boxleys.blogspot.com/\|http://boxleys.blogspot.com/] Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 48 years. meep questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #209,923 by tuberculosis 6/5/05 12:58:06 PM 8/21/07 6:05:28 AM Reply	Better than Fords :-) "Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" --Mark Twain "The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." --Albert Einstein "This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses." --George W. Bush Edited by tuberculosis Aug. 21, 2007, 06:05:28 AM EDT Expand All History
Post #209,929 by ben_tilly 6/5/05 2:59:14 PM Reply	There is a reason that GM is desperate Find me a GM model that Consumer Reports recommends. A deal on crap is still crap. Cheers, Ben I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
Post #209,968 by a6l6e6x 6/5/05 10:26:39 PM Reply	No argument there. Last one I owned was a 1980 Citation. Alex The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. -- Bertrand Russell
Post #209,885 by jbrabeck 6/5/05 8:30:38 AM Reply	Was price quoted on one of the demo models? Here sales droids get to drive the new cars (along with mgr wife and other friends). Once car has miles on it, it must be sold as used. Bought my last new car, minivan, that way. Had ~5,000 miles on it and price was ~10K off normal new cost. A good friend will come and bail you out of jail ... but, a true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "Damn...that was fun!"
Post #209,895 by ben_tilly 6/5/05 9:30:01 AM Reply	Will check on that I believe the car I got into had 34 miles on it, which suggests that it is not a demo model, but it is possible that I'm thinking of the wrong car. I'm fairly sure that the Corolla SEs are not demo cars. I'm also fairly sure that the sales rep does not expect me to go for one of them... Cheers, Ben I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
Post #209,913 by boxley 6/5/05 11:37:56 AM Reply	now have you looked at khia's more car less price and I dont care about what people say about quality, a 100k mile 10 year warranty is the life of a car so repair bills down the road dont figure into the equation. thanx, bill All tribal myths are true, for a given value of "true" Terry Pratchett [link\|http://boxleys.blogspot.com/\|http://boxleys.blogspot.com/] Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 48 years. meep questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #209,915 by Yendor 6/5/05 11:54:17 AM Reply	Re: now have you looked at khia's more car less price and I dont care about what people say about quality, a 100k mile 10 year warranty is the life of a car so repair bills down the road dont figure into the equation. I've got a 7-year-old Honda Accord that is at 99k miles, and which I fully expect to last at least another 7-10 years (barring any unforeseen circumstances.) 100k/10 years is only the life of the car if you intend on putting a good car out to pasture early. -YendorMike "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin, 1759 Historical Review of Pennsylvania
Post #209,916 by broomberg 6/5/05 11:56:35 AM Reply	Kia, not Khia We have the Sorrento. We like it. A lot. Back seat fits Ben. He's over 6'. That is why we bought it, as compared to the alternatives.
Post #209,918 by a6l6e6x 6/5/05 12:26:10 PM Reply	What, you never heard of a Garmann Khia? :) Alex The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. -- Bertrand Russell
Post #209,919 by boxley 6/5/05 12:39:10 PM Reply	well I meant the Korean not the Carmen:-) All tribal myths are true, for a given value of "true" Terry Pratchett [link\|http://boxleys.blogspot.com/\|http://boxleys.blogspot.com/] Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 48 years. meep questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #209,979 by folkert 6/5/05 11:30:56 PM Reply	No, but I have heard of a VW Karmen-Ghia. -- [link\|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net\|greg], [link\|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry\|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ *i_wethey* [image\|http://www.danasoft.com/vipersig.jpg\|\|\|\|]
Post #209,999 by CRConrad 6/6/05 3:09:24 AM Reply	No you haven't; Alex had it right. (Well, apart from his intentional G-K switch to make Ghia fit with "Khia".) It's [link\|http://www.karmann.com\|Karmann], not "Kar~~men~~". HTH! :-) [link\|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode\|Christian R. Conrad] (I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.) Your lies are of Microsoftian Scale and boring to boot. Your 'depression' may be the closest you ever come to recognizing truth: you have no 'inferiority complex', you are inferior - and something inside you recognizes this. - [link\|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=71575\|Ashton Brown]
Post #210,012 by folkert 6/6/05 7:12:24 AM Reply	My favorite Picker of Nits! -- [link\|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net\|greg], [link\|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry\|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ *i_wethey* [image\|http://www.danasoft.com/vipersig.jpg\|\|\|\|]
Post #210,019 by CRConrad 6/6/05 9:45:36 AM Reply	Bah, I bet you say that to all the girls! Or, you only say that because I'm your only Picker of Nits. [link\|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode\|Christian R. Conrad] (I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.) Your lies are of Microsoftian Scale and boring to boot. Your 'depression' may be the closest you ever come to recognizing truth: you have no 'inferiority complex', you are inferior - and something inside you recognizes this. - [link\|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=71575\|Ashton Brown]
Post #210,014 by a6l6e6x 6/6/05 8:47:23 AM Reply	That's a Bingo! Alex The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. -- Bertrand Russell
Post #209,926 by tuberculosis 6/5/05 1:06:21 PM 8/21/07 6:05:32 AM Reply	That's the life span of an American car Swedish cars last at least twice that long. Basing this on a couple Saabs and my current ebay special Volvo ($1700 + $1000 for brakes and ball joints) - 190k miles - expect at least 50k more miles. "Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" --Mark Twain "The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." --Albert Einstein "This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses." --George W. Bush Edited by tuberculosis Aug. 21, 2007, 06:05:32 AM EDT Expand All History
Post #209,930 by ben_tilly 6/5/05 4:12:08 PM Reply	No, and quality matters 10 year, 100K miles? In my family cars last longer than that. Heck, I expect to put over 60,000 miles on the car in the next 4 years. Buying a new car is painful enough, buying a new car expecting to not be able to use it a while is insane. Point of comparison. In my life, I'm only aware of one car that my mother purchased which didn't go over 10 years and 100K miles. The significant detail that killed that Toyota was my brother rolling it over a 15' cliff. Another point of comparison. The other car we have is 8 years and 110,000 miles right now. We expect to get several more years of use out of it. I hadn't considered a Kia, and I don't think that I'm about to start. Cheers, Ben I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
Post #209,931 by dws 6/5/05 4:21:06 PM 6/5/05 4:22:04 PM Reply	Re: No, and quality matters FWIW, my Dad's side of the family is in the automotive business, having at points run a Ford and a Toyota dealership. A couple of months back I asked my Dad what I should look at next car-wise, and he said Toyota or Hyundai. He thinks Hyundai is coming up strong on the outside, paying a lot of attention to quality. Like Toyota, they had a poor initial reputation, but they're working their way out of it quickly. And no matter what you do, you maximum point of leverage as a buyer is in the last few days of the month. Edited by dws June 5, 2005, 04:22:04 PM EDT Expand All History
Post #209,933 by pwhysall 6/5/05 4:28:55 PM Reply	On Hyundai... ...word on the street is that the Accent is a minging pile of shit, while the Coupe isn't at all bad. Peter [link\|http://www.ubuntulinux.org\|Ubuntu Linux] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Post #209,937 by boxley 6/5/05 4:34:46 PM Reply	they wouldnt offer such a warranty if they expected expensiv repairs during the period. Which means they think their car is sound. When I say 100k miles I am refering to what is called in the auto auction is exceeding the mechanical life of the car. All cars have an extremely low value once they hit the magic 100k. Now a nissan sentra will travel a long way, the one I had had 200K plus but I dont know how you would feel about the seating, they are small. thanx, bill All tribal myths are true, for a given value of "true" Terry Pratchett [link\|http://boxleys.blogspot.com/\|http://boxleys.blogspot.com/] Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 48 years. meep questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #209,942 by broomberg 6/5/05 5:06:02 PM Reply	Actually, no Long warrantees are deemed a marketing expense. The actual use of them is accounted for out of the marketing budget.
Post #209,945 by ben_tilly 6/5/05 5:20:08 PM Reply	Point Still the depreciation is very high, meaning that people don't expect them to last. Plus the gas mileage sucks. At current prices I'd expect to add $2000 in gas over the next 4 years. Looking further, the Consumer Report questions the safety of the car, I don't like their descriptions of the ride, and for several models there are repeated comments about the problems that large people have finding a comfortable driving position. Cheers, Ben I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
Post #209,949 by boxley 6/5/05 6:45:04 PM Reply	didnt know about the milage, mind changed All tribal myths are true, for a given value of "true" Terry Pratchett [link\|http://boxleys.blogspot.com/\|http://boxleys.blogspot.com/] Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 48 years. meep questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #209,939 by bepatient 6/5/05 4:39:07 PM Reply	Probably add local delivery, taxes and tags. Which will add about a grand to the total. Bros-in law just got a corolla and its actually alot nicer than I expected. Peppy little 4 banger engine and rides nice and fairly quiet. If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #209,941 by pwhysall 6/5/05 4:42:44 PM Reply	And it will never, ever break. Toyota are still king of the reliability hill. Peter [link\|http://www.ubuntulinux.org\|Ubuntu Linux] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Post #209,944 by Another Scott 6/5/05 5:17:36 PM Reply	Depends. I've been a little disappointed with my wife's 1993 Corolla DX (1.8 liter). It's got 173,000 miles on it and still gets close to 40 mpg on the highway (~32 in town). But, it's had lots of problems with plastic bits in the interior breaking every few years (interior door handles have broken off ~ 4 times, window cranks have broken off ~ 3 times). There's a plastic collar around the steering column that had some interior plastic bosses break, so it rattles. The windshield washer fluid reservoir mounting boss broke when the car was about 2 years old. Some string holds it in place now. There's also something weird about the air distribution in it - the air vents in the dash seem to be aimed in such a way that air is always blowing in the driver's eyes if you have the fan on (even when it's not on defrost). She wears contacts, so that's a big problem - she almost never uses the fan because of it. Maybe they didn't assemble something right (it was built in Canada). One of the right rear taillights is always out even though the bulb is fine (that seems to be a common problem with Corollas of that vintage). It's been "fixed" a couple of times, but the repair only lasts a few weeks. There seems to be a bad ground back there somewhere. The valve seals leak, so it puffs out a puff of oily smoke when it starts in the morning, especially when it's cold. (Yeah, that's probably not unexpected on a car with so many miles...) It's had a noisy front wheel bearing for about 100,000 miles (especially when turning left at low speeds). It's pretty noisy (inside) on the highway now, partly due to that bearing, but also due to what seems to be an exhaust leak near the cylinder head. It's not pleasant on long trips. :-( It's needed about 4 alternators, but that may be a reflection of the quality of the Delco alternators it used rather than Toyota itself. It has a Nippon Denso in it now and that seems fine. Otherwise, it's been standard maintenance stuff. The clutch was replaced at about 125k (~ $1000, by our local independent shop), the brakes were redone all around around the same time (~ $800, ditto - ouch), it's got a recent radiator, has had about 3 batteries, about 3 sets of tires, and some exhaust work. It's never had the cylinder head off. Early on it was exclusively serviced by the dealer. Until one day she took it in for an oil change and they got grease all over the interior, and (we found out later), put the wrong fluid in the master and slave clutch cylinders. The car was hard to shift after that oil change, but we thought little of it. Her sister took it on a trip to New Hampshire where it became impossible to shift. The shop figured out the problem and fixed it (she was eventually reimbursed by the dealer down here), but it caused some consternation. It's been a pretty good car, but it hasn't been the bullet-proof thing I was expected based on Toyota's reputation. The dealer repair experience was less than stellar, to put it mildly. kbb.com lists its "private party" value as $1810 ("good" condition). I don't know if I'd pay that much for it, but luckily I don't have to think about it. :-) She's in love with the idea of driving it until something major fails and getting more than 200,000 miles out of it (that would be another 3-4 years at our present driving rate), but I don't know. It's going to need tires again in a year or so, and I don't know if it's worth spending $450 or so for Michelins for it. She wants to get a Prius if/when we replace it. The more I read about them, the less I like them, but we'll see. She can be pretty persuasive. ;-) Cheers, Scott.
Post #210,005 by Ashton 6/6/05 5:46:45 AM Reply	Re: Depends. It's had a noisy front wheel bearing for about 100,000 miles (especially when turning left at low speeds). It's pretty noisy (inside) on the highway now, partly due to that bearing, but also due to what seems to be an exhaust leak near the cylinder head. It's not pleasant on long trips. :-( Ummm .. you seem to know about cars - also chem engr - right? Any recollection of what happens when a wheel bearing gets Brinneled to the point of fragmenting; in one swell foop? (And since it's turn-sensitive - this sounds like the RH one. At 173K, I'd replace both. Soon. I've also known a fair number of auto engr. Wizards, who regularly concur re such a bearing noise, as the topic comes up frequently. FWIW.) Of course, I can't assess the dB level from your comment, but the pattern is -- from seconds to .. a few minutes of LOUDER -- and then - denouement. Nobody knows how to 'predict', though, even for a given car model / WB design. I have a horror story re {My Car\ufffd} model (FWD) and an ignored FWBrg, last year; well, it would have been a Horror Story, had it not beneficently waited til he got off the freeway after lengthy 80 mph cruise.. within 3 blocks of home. That's when the housing cracked, wheel fell close-enough-to ~off. I saw the pix of the destruction.. it had been Cherry :( Luck, Ashton
Post #210,009 by pwhysall 6/6/05 7:01:40 AM Reply	Werd. Change the wheel bearing before the wheel decides to let you know that it's faulty by falling off. Peter [link\|http://www.ubuntulinux.org\|Ubuntu Linux] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Post #210,085 by Steve Lowe 6/6/05 4:33:22 PM Reply	Sure it's a wheel bearing? That type of noise can be associated with CV joint problems, especially if it worsens while turning. -- Steve
Post #210,090 by Ashton 6/6/05 5:02:47 PM Reply	Seconded.. though usually.. those 'click' not whine (?) Describing noises, esp automotive ones -- is an art most honored in its omission {sigh}. Can also be amusing as hell. (I've actually read ~ "Hey there's this noise from the front somewhere, kinda a whine. What could it be?") But I've also read some creative similes - one of which produced an exact diagnosis: ie Werds Werk reel Gud, if'n ya Tries. :-)
Post #210,091 by pwhysall 6/6/05 5:07:26 PM Reply	Most interesting... ...was the noise emitted under braking by the front offside wheel of SWMBO's old Matiz. It was as if there was a metal ring around the axle that spun with the axle under normal driving, but continued to spin at full speed as the vehicle slowed. We never did get to the bottom of that one. Peter [link\|http://www.ubuntulinux.org\|Ubuntu Linux] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Post #210,204 by CRConrad 6/7/05 7:43:22 AM Reply	Can't you weird Brit-peeples say "left" and "right"? ...the front offside wheel... What, had it committed a zone error on the football (or ice hockey) field?!? One so wishes you people would catch up at least with the _twentieth_ century, and quit that stupid "nearside, offside" gibberish! ("Near" what, exactly? "Off" what, and do we care a fig?) There are a pair of eminently simple, clear and unambiguous words to tell which side a wheel is on: "Left" and "right". You're quite free to use them, without any royalty fees to pay or anything. HTH! (Please don't think I'm annoyed because I don't know what you're talking about: I'm fairly sure this is horse terminology, just extended waaay past its useful life. I'm annoyed because you lot are still gibbering on in Horseish, whereas the rest of the world has left all that shit behind ages ago. Or, you want I should gibber Norse longboat terminology at you?) [link\|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode\|Christian R. Conrad] (I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.) Your lies are of Microsoftian Scale and boring to boot. Your 'depression' may be the closest you ever come to recognizing truth: you have no 'inferiority complex', you are inferior - and something inside you recognizes this. - [link\|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=71575\|Ashton Brown]
Post #210,206 by pwhysall 6/7/05 8:13:52 AM Reply	Dear CRC Foff, you nit-picking excessively-anal Scandalahoovian. Love, Peter. Peter [link\|http://www.ubuntulinux.org\|Ubuntu Linux] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Post #210,273 by bionerd 6/7/05 2:31:43 PM Reply	I bet he has a really clean house!
Post #210,399 by CRConrad 6/8/05 7:49:41 AM Reply	Oh, bullcrap. So, silly vego-person, can you... ...can you tell us whether PeeWee was talking about the left or the right front wheel of his SO's car, some time when you're not too busy spouting cheapo-psych theories about the cleanliness or absence thereof() of my "house"(+)? If not, then maybe you should think again about whom exactly you should be so eagerly agreeing with, here. HTH! (): Hint 1: We have a teenager and two-year-old. (+): Hint 2: Not all people can afford to live in houses of their own. When you rent just a bit of a big one, it's called a "flat" or an "apartment". [link\|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode\|Christian R. Conrad] (I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.) Your lies are of Microsoftian Scale and boring to boot. Your 'depression' may be the closest you ever come to recognizing truth: you have no 'inferiority complex', you are inferior - and something inside you recognizes this. - [link\|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=71575\|Ashton Brown]
Post #210,401 by Another Scott 6/8/05 8:04:18 AM Reply	You need to turn up your humor detector. :-)
Post #210,402 by pwhysall 6/8/05 8:06:21 AM Reply	Stop being a knobhead, CRC. I'd never thought I'd see YOU being thin-skinned. Peter [link\|http://www.ubuntulinux.org\|Ubuntu Linux] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Post #210,406 by boxley 6/8/05 8:23:26 AM Reply	He's not he is being CRC so leave him be All tribal myths are true, for a given value of "true" Terry Pratchett [link\|http://boxleys.blogspot.com/\|http://boxleys.blogspot.com/] Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #210,407 by CRConrad 6/8/05 8:27:14 AM Reply	You first, PeeWee. I don't think I was "being thin-skinned" either. I just got a bit annoyed at mz Johnette-come-lately for mindlessly hacking away at the same (silly, stupid, and eternally annoying) "anal"-bullshit kerb that you, mr über-knobhead, had started. How fucking "funny" is that, really? Was anybody writhing on the floor from laughter at it? If so, I'd suggest it is they (these hypothetical writhers-on-the-floor), not I, who suffer from a humour deficiency(). Now as for you, my psychoanal(+)ytically inclined young Kemosabe, you'll stop being a knobhead in my book when you edit your post to use modern English in stead of feudal-era horsie-talk. Until then, I feel you* have no call to ask me to start or stop being anything. HTH! (): Yes, Scott DK, that's you I'm talking about. (+): Hnyuk, hnyuk, he said "anal"! [link\|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode\|Christian R. Conrad]* (I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.) Your lies are of Microsoftian Scale and boring to boot. Your 'depression' may be the closest you ever come to recognizing truth: you have no 'inferiority complex', you are inferior - and something inside you recognizes this. - [link\|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=71575\|Ashton Brown]
Post #210,408 by pwhysall 6/8/05 8:34:03 AM 6/8/05 8:34:27 AM Reply	Oh, give it a rest, ffs. You started this with your mindless anal wanking on about "nearside/offside". It's common parlance over here (and elsewhere). In other words, it's not "feudal horsie talk", it's normal usage, which is why I used it. Duh. You could have simply said "eh? offside? Wossat?", but instead you started babbling on about football and hockey: What, had it committed a zone error on the football (or ice hockey) field?!? One so wishes you people would catch up at least with the _twentieth_ century, and quit that stupid "nearside, offside" gibberish! ("Near" what, exactly? "Off" what, and do we care a fig?) There are a pair of eminently simple, clear and unambiguous words to tell which side a wheel is on: "Left" and "right". You're quite free to use them, without any royalty fees to pay or anything. HTH! Anyway, what's a "zone error" on a football "field"? Please take care to use the appropriate terminology when attempting to be sarcastically funny. Peter [link\|http://www.ubuntulinux.org\|Ubuntu Linux] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes! Edited by pwhysall June 8, 2005, 08:34:27 AM EDT Expand All History
Post #210,415 by CRConrad 6/8/05 9:10:40 AM Reply	Any time. Any time after you, that is. PeeWee squirms: You started this with your mindless anal wanking on about "nearside/offside". No, you started it, by using such silly unintelligible terms. Or, if you wish, you started it by dredging up that utterly worn-out, stupid, annoying old "anal" hobby-horse that sloppy fuckwits always resort to as a "defense" of their sloppiness. You're still using it above here, I see, BTW. It's common parlance over here (and elsewhere). In other words, it's not "feudal horsie talk", it's normal usage, which is why I used it. Duh. OK, when you're posting on the UK-StraliaNet, feel free to talk whatever variant of horsie-talk you want. But when you're posting here on the INTER-national INTER-net, please don't try to claim that your weird backwaters-of-a-dead-Empire dialect is "normal" usage, 'coz it sure as fuck ain't. You could have simply said "eh? offside? Wossat?", And that, my blind young friend, was actually what I was doing. but instead you started babbling on about football and hockey: What, had it committed a zone error on the football (or ice hockey) field?!? [SNIP: Excessive quotage] Anyway, what's a "zone error" on a football "field"? Please take care to use the appropriate terminology when attempting to be sarcastically funny. On the contrary, Grasshopper, I used the exact correct kind of terminology for my purposes here. When I'm asking (as you correctly surmised, hopefully in a "sarcastically funny" way), "Are you using that term in the technical sense of '...' as we laymen would call it?", I better be careful NOT to use too technically-"appropriate terminology" in my own rephrasing, or the effect is spoiled for all non-aficionados of the subject at hand. HTH! [link\|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode\|Christian R. Conrad] (I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.) Your lies are of Microsoftian Scale and boring to boot. Your 'depression' may be the closest you ever come to recognizing truth: you have no 'inferiority complex', you are inferior - and something inside you recognizes this. - [link\|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=71575\|Ashton Brown]
Post #210,419 by pwhysall 6/8/05 9:39:56 AM Reply	Re: Any time. You're being an utter dick. I'm not going to dignify that load of retro-justificational twattery with a response. Oh. I just did. Bollocks. Peter [link\|http://www.ubuntulinux.org\|Ubuntu Linux] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Post #210,422 by CRConrad 6/8/05 9:46:19 AM Reply	AKA "I don't have any real answer". OK, noted.
Post #210,431 by bepatient 6/8/05 10:33:49 AM Reply	Yellow flag thrown! Offsetting penalties. First on Peter for thinking that everyone would understand what "offside wheel" would mean (even though I do believe CRC >did<, in fact, understand it) and I certainly figured it out from context within under a second. Offset by CRC demanding it be changed because, for lack of a better argument, we should all speak properly because we're on the Internet. Replay the down! If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #210,446 by rcareaga 6/8/05 11:25:01 AM Reply	Bonus points awarded ...to pwhysall for introducing the term "front offside wheel," archaic though this might sound to colonial and continental ears. English will be a poorer, more sterile mindspace as these idioms die off. Points as well to CRC (who is merely restless, I think, and having at physwall reflexively as a grizzly will sharpen its claws upon the bark of a fir) for characteristically entertaining cussedness, and particularly for please don't try to claim that your weird backwaters-of-a-dead-Empire dialect is "normal" usage, which I expect to see in due course in six-point Verdana at the foot of my screen. We now return you to our normal programming. cordially, Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist.
Post #210,532 by pwhysall 6/8/05 5:56:04 PM Reply	Having at WHOM? Who is this physwall character? I'm used to some fairly egregious spellings of my surname ("Wyzel" was a good one, as was "Wisul"), but they at least SOUND the same... :-p Peter [link\|http://www.ubuntulinux.org\|Ubuntu Linux] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Post #210,580 by rcareaga 6/9/05 12:05:06 AM Reply	I stand corrected Many a slip 'twixt fingertip and key caps. This was three of 'em. cradolily, Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist.
Post #210,453 by drewk 6/8/05 12:20:09 PM Reply	Oh, and by the way ... Does it really make a nit's worth of difference which wheel it was? I mean really, we're describing -- in print -- the machanical sound once made by a car the current writer's SWMBO no longer owns; a sound they never identified the cause of; a sound which most likely had nothing to do with which side it was on anyway. So like, WTF? === Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link\|http://DocHope.com\|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats]. [link\|http://DocHope.com\|http://DocHope.com]
Post #210,466 by boxley 6/8/05 12:37:29 PM Reply	ICLRPD (new thread) Created as new thread #210465 titled [link\|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=210465\|ICLRPD] All tribal myths are true, for a given value of "true" Terry Pratchett [link\|http://boxleys.blogspot.com/\|http://boxleys.blogspot.com/] Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #210,435 by admin 6/8/05 10:52:36 AM Reply	No, no, no. It's "berk", not "dick. Get it straight, you imperialist baboon. Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #210,438 by folkert 6/8/05 11:03:42 AM Reply	ROFL! I am sorry, you guys are JUST too much! -- [link\|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net\|greg], [link\|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry\|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ *i_wethey* [image\|http://www.danasoft.com/vipersig.jpg\|\|\|\|]
Post #210,464 by mmoffitt 6/8/05 12:35:35 PM Reply	And there we are. Ladies and Gentlemen, the once and future king, Christian R Conrad. bcnu, Mikem Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer. God Bless America.
Post #210,487 by ben_tilly 6/8/05 2:01:53 PM Reply	Normal usage? Not here. Never heard it in my life. I have no idea which is which. When you say near, do you mean near to the driver who is usually in the car, or near to something else? Let's see if I can figure it out. I checked with [link\|http://dictionary.reference.com/\|http://dictionary.reference.com/]. They have an entry for nearside, but not what you're using offside for. Their entry for nearside says the side of the vehicle nearest to the kerb. (Their spelling, not mine. Note that it is the opposite of what I would have guessed, but there were even odds of that.) Here that would be the right-hand side. You guys drive on the other side of the street, so you probably mean the left-hand side. I have no idea whether you'll mean left or right if you use those phrases in the USA. Suppose you do use left, just to be consistent. Note that we have one-way streets where there are curbs on both sides. (We also have streets where people park in the middle or on the side, but ignore that detail.) If you use the word "nearside" while driving down one of those streets, I'll have no idea what you mean. The moral is that when talking with Americans, the only reason that you should say "nearside" or "offside" is that you want to enjoy the experience of not communicating. Cheers, Ben I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
Post #210,491 by CRConrad 6/8/05 2:21:01 PM Reply	ICLRPD (new thread) Created as new thread #210490 titled [link\|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=210490\|ICLRPD] [link\|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode\|Christian R. Conrad] (I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.) Your lies are of Microsoftian Scale and boring to boot. Your 'depression' may be the closest you ever come to recognizing truth: you have no 'inferiority complex', you are inferior - and something inside you recognizes this. - [link\|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=71575\|Ashton Brown]
Post #210,502 by admin 6/8/05 3:14:33 PM Reply	So I guess... ... I should insist that Southerners stop speaking with an accent when I'm talking to them, since obviously they're just trying not to communicate with me? After all, "y'all" isn't my normal usage, therefore they should accomodate me as their audience. How terribly provincial of you. 1) I guessed offside meaning passenger side as I read it. As it turns out, I was correct. - but - 2) Who gives a rat's ass, other than the pathologically anal folk out there? The true moral is that when speaking with Americans, you would expect to occasionally get questions as to your terminology. Not lectures about making sure you choose your colloquialisms for someone else. The only question remaining is how do we measure the collective pole-up-the-ass you and Christian are sharing on this one... meters or yards? Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #210,504 by drewk 6/8/05 3:16:47 PM Reply	Furlongs === Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link\|http://DocHope.com\|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats]. [link\|http://DocHope.com\|http://DocHope.com]
Post #210,509 by pwhysall 6/8/05 3:29:43 PM Reply	no. It is clearly one rod, pole or perch[link\|http://home.clara.net/brianp/lengths.html\|.] Peter [link\|http://www.ubuntulinux.org\|Ubuntu Linux] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Post #210,506 by Another Scott 6/8/05 3:23:04 PM Reply	You're risking a barrage of Norse longboat vituperation. ;) Hey, it's sort of interesting. What else are we going to talk about today, eh? [link\|http://msnbc.msn.com/id/8136908\|Shall we grab a taxi?] Cheers, Scott.
Post #210,508 by admin 6/8/05 3:28:23 PM Reply	Keeps the LRPDs coming, dunnit? Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #210,511 by boxley 6/8/05 3:38:51 PM Reply	thats knot a good measurement All tribal myths are true, for a given value of "true" Terry Pratchett [link\|http://boxleys.blogspot.com/\|http://boxleys.blogspot.com/] Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #210,526 by ben_tilly 6/8/05 5:17:34 PM Reply	Um, actually, I think that your guess was backwards At least if I understood the dictionary definition right. When I park, the passenger is on the side with the curb, so that's nearside. The offside is the one that the driver is on. (Peter will correct me if I have that backwards, which event I presently give perhaps 30% odds of.) As for who cares, perhaps nobody but it doesn't really matter to me. I'm not telling Peter what to do, I'm just giving him a data point on who will and will not understand those terms. He can do anything that he wants with that data point. A few of the options include taking it into consideration in the future, intentionally confusing people next time, using it to mock visiting tourists, or forget about it. Do you have me confused with CRConrad? Cheers, Ben I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
Post #210,527 by pwhysall 6/8/05 5:25:42 PM Reply	I had it backwards, actually. Nearside is passenger-side, which is the left-hand-side of the vehicle. So your nearside is my offside. Or something. It's still very widely used over here, and not just in speech; you can go to any of a squillion car parts websites and buy offside doors and panels, and nearside arches and sideskirts. Peter [link\|http://www.ubuntulinux.org\|Ubuntu Linux] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Post #210,531 by boxley 6/8/05 5:51:31 PM Reply	what no fenders or wheel wells hood or trunk? All tribal myths are true, for a given value of "true" Terry Pratchett [link\|http://boxleys.blogspot.com/\|http://boxleys.blogspot.com/] Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #210,533 by admin 6/8/05 5:57:10 PM Reply	Confused? No. Very similar, yes. Except that sometimes CRC is joking. And as Peter mentioned, he told me which was which incorrectly before I posted. Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #210,539 by CRConrad 6/8/05 6:28:51 PM Reply	Kind of invalidates your parallel, doesn't it though? I mean, even if "y'all" isn't your own usage, it's eminently understandable, being an obvious contraction of "you" and "all". So, do you still think that I (and Ben) "have a rod up my (our) backside(s)" for thinking Peter's terminology is less than perfectly effective in communication... When even he can't get it right? [link\|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode\|Christian R. Conrad] (I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.) Your lies are of Microsoftian Scale and boring to boot. Your 'depression' may be the closest you ever come to recognizing truth: you have no 'inferiority complex', you are inferior - and something inside you recognizes this. - [link\|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=71575\|Ashton Brown]
Post #210,540 by admin 6/8/05 6:30:11 PM Reply	It's called "hyperbole". HTH! Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #210,586 by CRConrad 6/9/05 3:35:09 AM Reply	OK, that's another word for it. Thanks! Thanks for admitting that objections to my point work only as hyperbole, not to be taken seriously. [link\|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode\|Christian R. Conrad] (I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.) Your lies are of Microsoftian Scale and boring to boot. Your 'depression' may be the closest you ever come to recognizing truth: you have no 'inferiority complex', you are inferior - and something inside you recognizes this. - [link\|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=71575\|Ashton Brown]
Post #210,601 by admin 6/9/05 8:15:55 AM Reply	Whatever gets you through the day. True examples are hard to find, obviously, because by definition I don't know the words I won't know. I've run across it in the past, however, with regional differences in the US. Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #210,608 by CRConrad 6/9/05 9:37:02 AM Reply	I think you're forgetting the most salient detail here... AdminiScott writes: True examples are hard to find, obviously, because by definition I don't know the words I won't know. Sure, you don't know yet what words that you don't know you'll come across in the future. But this ("offside", that is -- not "y'all") was aparently not just an example of you, the recipient, not getting it right. I've run across it in the past, however, with regional differences in the US. What -- you've really come across cases where someone uses regional-dialect expressions that even they, the speaker, don't get right, often enough for it to be worth mentioning here? And, to get back to the point: If you really have encountered that, are you seriously claiming that you didn't think that was "excessive" use of regional dialect (in the sense of hindering communication with out-of-regionals like you)? I find it hard to believe that you really think the onus was on you to understand something that even the person who was saying it didn't understand. Is that really how you feel? [link\|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode\|Christian R. Conrad] (I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.) Your lies are of Microsoftian Scale and boring to boot. Your 'depression' may be the closest you ever come to recognizing truth: you have no 'inferiority complex', you are inferior - and something inside you recognizes this. - [link\|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=71575\|Ashton Brown]
Post #210,614 by admin 6/9/05 10:05:27 AM Reply	Ha, nice try. You were bitching about this looooong before Peter realized he wasn't saying it correctly. Thanks for playing, drive through. Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #210,659 by CRConrad 6/9/05 2:55:56 PM Reply	Not even a "nice try" from you, though. Too obvious a try at obfuscating the whole point of _this sub-sub-thread_: That your contention that it wasn't confusing was wrong, and that the fact that this was due to Peter himself getting it wrong rather proves my point, not yours. And I could hardly have been "bitching" about that before you started the SST, which is so bleeding obvious that it makes your try not-even-nice. [link\|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode\|Christian R. Conrad] (I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.) Your lies are of Microsoftian Scale and boring to boot. Your 'depression' may be the closest you ever come to recognizing truth: you have no 'inferiority complex', you are inferior - and something inside you recognizes this. - [link\|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=71575\|Ashton Brown]
Post #210,673 by admin 6/9/05 4:14:30 PM Reply	Sorry, not my conversation, yours. Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #210,757 by CRConrad 6/10/05 2:38:21 AM Reply	Ha ha, very funny. But, hey, if you're granting... ...me "ownership" of the whole conversation, then your behaviour above only becomes all the more egregious: In the future, don't be such an arsehole as to try to retroactively redefine what it's been about, mmkay? That sucks bad enough even if you're an equal "part-owner" of a conversation. [link\|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode\|Christian R. Conrad] (I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.) Your lies are of Microsoftian Scale and boring to boot. Your 'depression' may be the closest you ever come to recognizing truth: you have no 'inferiority complex', you are inferior - and something inside you recognizes this. - [link\|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=71575\|Ashton Brown]
Post #210,781 by admin 6/10/05 8:20:31 AM 6/10/05 8:22:40 AM Reply	No, you mistake my meaning. The supposed "sub-sub-thread" about "That your contention that it wasn't confusing" is your conversation, not mine. In other words, I'm not involved in your "Peter was wrong himself, therefore I was right" construct, which was invented far after the fact to justify your original post -- regardless of your attempt to hijack my meaning. And now I'm done with this completely, now that you've finished your descent into casuistry. HTH! Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..." Edited by admin June 10, 2005, 08:22:40 AM EDT Expand All History
Post #210,428 by bionerd 6/8/05 9:56:51 AM Reply	Yeah, actually I did understand what Peter was talking about Not exactly difficult. If anyone is an anal perfectionist it's me. And I dont care. So there.
Post #210,436 by admin 6/8/05 10:53:33 AM Reply	... No comment. Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #210,439 by pwhysall 6/8/05 11:04:04 AM Reply	You keep coming back to that. So to speak. gd&r Peter [link\|http://www.ubuntulinux.org\|Ubuntu Linux] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Post #210,440 by folkert 6/8/05 11:05:07 AM Reply	Errrrmh, <cough>... ummm I am reminded of a post I made some time recently. But I shall not repeat it. -- [link\|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net\|greg], [link\|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry\|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ *i_wethey* [image\|http://www.danasoft.com/vipersig.jpg\|\|\|\|]
Post #210,449 by bionerd 6/8/05 11:51:16 AM Reply	Oh, you're all just basking in your cleverness, arent you?
Post #210,450 by Nightowl 6/8/05 11:58:10 AM Reply	They're sure basking in something! I got lost somewhere between the Offside wheel and the Starboard side! Brenda Thank God for sleep. And when you can't sleep, still thank Him you live to lie awake. :)
Post #210,484 by CRConrad 6/8/05 1:44:30 PM Reply	Had I seen it in time, I too would have been sorely tempted.
Post #210,534 by boxley 6/8/05 6:13:30 PM 6/8/05 6:28:39 PM Reply	poor fellas cant tell the difference between an adjective and their desires "I am an anal perfectioninst" is a description of a personality "I have perfected anal" is not. (thank you Peter) thanx, bill All tribal myths are true, for a given value of "true" Terry Pratchett [link\|http://boxleys.blogspot.com/\|http://boxleys.blogspot.com/] Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org] Edited by boxley June 8, 2005, 06:28:39 PM EDT Expand All History
Post #210,535 by pwhysall 6/8/05 6:13:58 PM Reply	If you've got... ...a perected anal, then you should see a doctor. Peter [link\|http://www.ubuntulinux.org\|Ubuntu Linux] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Post #210,485 by CRConrad 6/8/05 1:47:38 PM Reply	OK,w/ that admission you can to call me (or NE1) one too! :)
Post #210,216 by drewk 6/7/05 9:26:31 AM Reply	Oh absolutely gibber the Norse longboat terminology at us === Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link\|http://DocHope.com\|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats]. [link\|http://DocHope.com\|http://DocHope.com]
Post #210,218 by pwhysall 6/7/05 9:49:41 AM Reply	ICLFRPD (new thread) Created as new thread #210217 titled [link\|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=210217\|ICLFRPD] Peter [link\|http://www.ubuntulinux.org\|Ubuntu Linux] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Post #210,264 by tuberculosis 6/7/05 1:55:19 PM 8/21/07 6:13:18 AM Reply	Uh, that would be Larboard/Starboard, Lubber Boy "Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" --Mark Twain "The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." --Albert Einstein "This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses." --George W. Bush Edited by tuberculosis June 7, 2005, 01:56:00 PM EDT Edited by tuberculosis Aug. 21, 2007, 06:13:18 AM EDT Expand All History
Post #210,269 by boxley 6/7/05 2:14:07 PM Reply	nope havn/styrbord larboard is the same All tribal myths are true, for a given value of "true" Terry Pratchett [link\|http://boxleys.blogspot.com/\|http://boxleys.blogspot.com/] Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #210,280 by tuberculosis 6/7/05 2:45:27 PM 8/21/07 6:13:39 AM Reply	Not so [link\|http://www.bargain-resource.com/NT1.htm\|http://www.bargain-resource.com/NT1.htm] Larboard The left, or port, side of any craft when facing the bow. Perhaps derived from the 13th century English word laddebord, or loading side; some suggest it goes all the way back to the Norse word hlada bord of the same meaning. Note that the loading/larboard side is now called the "port" side. Good rule since its bloody hard to tell the difference between "Larboard" and "Starboard" when shouting through the wind. Starboard The right side of any craft when facing the bow. Before the advent of the stern rudder, vessels had their steering oars on the right, or steering board, or starboard side. I'm pretty sure my spelling of these terms is all to hell since they are mostly phonetic spellings of what were generally oral terms (example - Forecastle is also known/spelled/pronounce "Foc'sle" - seen it spelled lots of ways but its still that area in the bow under the deck where the crew bunks). "Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" --Mark Twain "The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." --Albert Einstein "This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses." --George W. Bush Edited by tuberculosis Aug. 21, 2007, 06:13:39 AM EDT Expand All History
Post #210,274 by ben_tilly 6/7/05 2:33:16 PM Reply	Doubly so when they drive on the wrong side of the road I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
Post #210,131 by Another Scott 6/6/05 9:07:15 PM Reply	It seems like a wheel bearing. As Ashton said, it's my understanding that CV joints make more of a clicking noise. This BMW site call it a [link\|http://www.autohausaz.com/bmw-auto-parts/bmw-noises.html\|hum] when a wheel bearing is going bad. I wouldn't use that word, but it's close. The noise is noticable when turning at low speeds, like turning into a driveway. That puts more stress on the bearing than driving straight. I too have heard horror stories about bad wheel bearings causing wheels to fall off, etc. I don't think this is anything like that bad - it's just annoying. If it were a RWD car, changing the bearing would be trivial. But since it's a FWD car, one has to remove the lower control arms (disconnecting various ball joints, etc.) to get at the bearing. :-( Coupled with the difficulty in being sure that that's the problem, we've been hoping that it'll just not get any worse. It has literally been at least 100,000 miles with this noise. I probably should try to get it checked out one of these days... Cheers, Scott.
Post #210,961 by Another Scott 6/11/05 8:06:48 PM Reply	The wheel bearing's fine. Needs a rear McPherson strut. (new thread) Created as new thread #210960 titled [link\|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=210960\|The wheel bearing's fine. Needs a rear McPherson strut.]
Post #209,946 by ben_tilly 6/5/05 6:02:07 PM Reply	Consumer Reports likes them The weak spot seems to be the suspension. (Over 9.3% of '97s had suspension problems.) Other relative problem areas (over 5% of 97s have trouble) include the engine, electrical, and brakes. Most 97s had no major problems. Cheers, Ben I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
Post #210,046 by lincoln 6/6/05 1:23:37 PM Reply	Re: Consumer Reports likes them Those numbers are from Consumer Report subscribers that have answered their annual subscriber survey. Like in any survey, the people who have what they consider to be a problematic car are much more likely to comment about it on a survey. My last American company car was notorious for bad brake systems, and after repairing mine twice in its first 5 years (was purchased new) I made sure to mention it until CU would no longer report on cars that old. lincoln "Until the revolution, we are only useful for our private information and our money." [link\|mailto:bconnors@ev1.net\|contact me]
Post #210,118 by ben_tilly 6/6/05 8:09:50 PM Reply	Means it is even better than advertised. :-) I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
Post #209,952 by tonytib 6/5/05 8:30:28 PM Reply	Internet/Fleet sales is the way to go At least, my experience and those of several other friends was very positive. Excellent price upfront, no pressure (salesman didn't try to get me into a more expensive version or model), good experience (e.g. test drive -- "here are the keys, no problem if you want to take a long test drive"). And the car, now almost 3 years old, is doing great. OK, maybe you can save a little more money haggling -- but my time is worth more than that. Tony
Post #209,992 by cforde 6/6/05 1:12:51 AM Reply	that's how I bought my '96 Nissan Altima it currently has 159,000 miles on the clock and still feels solild. Regular maintenance and it hasn't given me any trouble... Have fun, Carl Forde
Post #210,006 by Ashton 6/6/05 5:52:34 AM Reply	'96 Nissan Altima Dunno re '96 - but I destroyed {!!} a '93, when test driving it re friend's eventual '93 Integra purchase. That is, with salesdroid along -- went just a tad too fast over some speed bumps. When we got back: xmission fluid a dripping. ie it has no SKID PLATE! (as did my Saab and does my Acura Vigor). You might want to see where your trans drain plug, etc. hangs down beneath (?) Just a thought, Ashton Destroyer of hanging-down bits, for the Common Good.
Post #210,083 by Steve Lowe 6/6/05 4:24:35 PM Reply	ICLRPD (new thread) Created as new thread #210082 titled [link\|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=210082\|ICLRPD] -- Steve
Post #209,993 by pwhysall 6/6/05 1:26:47 AM Reply	Over here, one avoids ex-fleet cars like t'plague. They've had the tits thrashed off 'em, see. Peter [link\|http://www.ubuntulinux.org\|Ubuntu Linux] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Post #210,139 by tonytib 6/6/05 9:29:57 PM Reply	Please read more carefully It's the Fleet Sales Office you want, NOT the used Fleet car (e.g. ex-rental car). In many US dealerships, Fleet Sales handles Internet requests. They seem to like quick sales, and assume you know what you want -- IOW they treated myself and the other two cow-workers as adults. And all 3 cars were bought new, and are doing fine. Tony
Post #210,184 by pwhysall 6/7/05 1:28:32 AM Reply	Over here... ...individuals cannae buy cars in that way. Fleet sales peeps deal with companies only, and only take orders for X cars at a time (where X is usually > 10). Peter [link\|http://www.ubuntulinux.org\|Ubuntu Linux] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Post #209,971 by static 6/5/05 11:07:04 PM Reply	Some things I saw. My (now) wife bought a new car late last year. No finance. I let her haggle. Well, she insisted I watch. :-) * Be thankful you are doing the shopping, not your wife. * Get a quote in writing, including all the bits-n-pieces they tack on. It is horribly easy to forget the extras, because they add them on right at the end. We got stung nearly $1000 by this. * You have to be willing to walk away right up until they have your money. (This is very hard! We couldn't do it right near the end, though we'd bargained hard all the way through.) * They will try to sell you things like paint-protection, burglar alarms, rust-proofing, yadda yadda. After you've committed to the sale. I felt cheated when I bought my 1yro Lancer because they tried this and told them so, but I couldn't talk my wife out of it when she bought her new X-Trail. Wade. Save Fintlewoodlewix
Post #209,976 by ben_tilly 6/5/05 11:20:26 PM Reply	It looks like I can trust it (is LoJack worthwhile?) They switched cars, but the price remains the same. If I did it yesterday I would have a slightly nicer car for the price, but the difference isn't big. (I'm still well below what Consumer Reports suggests starting negotiating at.) I have the contract in hand. The price on a new 2005 Toyota Camry (not a dealer model) didn't include taxes. Up front it is $16819 minus a $1000 rebate, so $15819, plus taxes and fees. 8.25% sales tax, 1.75% licensing fees. Those are by law. (This matches what other buyers have told me.) A $273 optional service contract snuck in there, will ask about that. There is a $45 document preparation fee. There is a prepay penalty of $75 if I do it fast. (Which I will.) Final price with those fees if I don't get LoJack, with taxes and prepayment penalty, is $17786.76. Adding LoJack costs $595, but allows police to track a stolen car. They claim that 92% of stolen cars get recovered within 24 hours. (And the Camry is a popular target for thieves.) Still trying to decide whether that is worthwhile. It would save me a whole $6/year on insurance. (Big whoop.) Why is the price so low? Their explanation is that they don't control the mix of vehicles that Toyota sends them. (I can believe that a corporation would be this stupid.) The Prius immediately sells for full list price, no haggling (this matches what people who've bought the Prius have said), and they get more Camrys than they can sell. So they sell Camrys at a loss to be able to get extra shipments in. Cheers, Ben I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
Post #209,978 by folkert 6/5/05 11:28:39 PM Reply	Yes. Do you know what it is/does? -- [link\|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net\|greg], [link\|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry\|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ *i_wethey* [image\|http://www.danasoft.com/vipersig.jpg\|\|\|\|]
Post #209,981 by ben_tilly 6/5/05 11:43:02 PM Reply	I know what it is/does You call 911, give them your information, and they turn on a radio receiver to let any passing cop that is properly equipped nab the thief. According to advertising, over 90% of the time the car is recovered (as opposed to 68% without), a quarter of the time an arrest is made, and on average 1/5 of the damage is done. Just trying to figure out whether my odds of being stolen make it worthwhile. The Googling that I'm doing suggest that it may well be. :-( Cheers, Ben I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
Post #209,980 by Another Scott 6/5/05 11:39:47 PM Reply	Do you know of anyone out there that's had a car stolen? The only car I personally know of being stolen was my mother's 1988 Olds 98 Regency. It had about 250,000 miles on it at the time. It was stolen from her church parking lot. Yes, they caught the kid who did it. He obviously didn't have much sense. She got the car back after a few days. The steering column was busted up and he smashed out the headlights (the light switch was broken when he tore up the column, so he broke the bulbs to turn off the lights). It cost a couple of hundred or so for everything to be fixed (using parts from a junkyard). Do you know of any friends or neighbors out there who have had their car stolen? If not, I'd say it's very expensive insurance for piece of mind. Cheers, Scott.
Post #209,987 by ben_tilly 6/5/05 11:48:29 PM Reply	This IS Los Angeles Car thefts are common here, though I can't bring specific incidents to mind in the time I've been here. I'm going to be living in a nice part of Long Beach, but the city as a whole has few nice parts and a lot of sucky parts. I'm leaning towards including it. Cheers, Ben I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
Post #210,013 by admin 6/6/05 7:43:45 AM Reply	It does happen. My '87 Camaro Z28 was stolen out of a Southfield parking garage in the middle of the day. They found it months later, stripped down to the engine block and the frame, on a street in Detroit. The advice I was given at the time by one of the Southfield police officers was to stop carrying my registration and insurance information with the car. If the thief gets pulled over without them, odds are that he'll get stopped when the plates are run. Otherwise, he can just say he's borrowing the car from a friend. Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #210,087 by folkert 6/6/05 4:40:27 PM Reply	Had my new '87 'stang stolen... I was about 15ft from it. I had parked it turned it off, grabbed the keys. Walk 15 ft to a Security Pacific ATM around the corner. no more than 2 minutes more like 1 minute 30 seconds... it was gone, I heard it start, ran for it, heard and saw it scream away. Man was I pissed. I was just done getting some quickcash. Damn. That was the last time I EVER left a car of mine out of sight in LA. -- [link\|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net\|greg], [link\|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry\|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ *i_wethey* [image\|http://www.danasoft.com/vipersig.jpg\|\|\|\|]
Post #209,982 by broomberg 6/5/05 11:43:06 PM Reply	Take it And yes, I'd say the Lojack it worth it. Warm fuzzies. Also, a big enough Lojack sticker, and it is less likely to be stolen. Hmm - how much for just the sticker?
Post #209,983 by ben_tilly 6/5/05 11:44:58 PM Reply	I believe there is no sticker with LoJack If professional thieves know that it is there, they will find and disable it. Cheers, Ben I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
Post #209,986 by drewk 6/5/05 11:47:57 PM Reply	If professional thieves get it, it won't matter === Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link\|http://DocHope.com\|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats]. [link\|http://DocHope.com\|http://DocHope.com]
Post #209,984 by drewk 6/5/05 11:46:19 PM Reply	I would have said yes, but look at the insurance company If this was really likely to pay off, they'd want you to have one. If you were financing you'd be carrying full-coverage insurance. If you pay cash you won't have to. Is the $6 they're offering based on the assumtion that they will pay if it's stolen? === Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link\|http://DocHope.com\|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats]. [link\|http://DocHope.com\|http://DocHope.com]
Post #209,988 by ben_tilly 6/5/05 11:52:57 PM Reply	Yabut, there is a twist I got a quote for what it would do to rates where I live now, not where I will live. Right now I'm in Santa Monica. Our crime rate is low. I will be living in Long Beach, which is not nearly as nice. (Consider that I've been advised not to live north of 7'th street...) LoJack advertises that it is possible to save up to 33% on your insurance rates. Obviously that depends on car, insurer, and where you live. So it can be worthwhile. Cheers, Ben I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
Post #210,047 by lincoln 6/6/05 1:26:43 PM Reply	Aren't taxes computed on the before rebate price? lincoln "Until the revolution, we are only useful for our private information and our money." [link\|mailto:bconnors@ev1.net\|contact me]
Post #210,119 by ben_tilly 6/6/05 8:10:13 PM Reply	Yes. I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
Post #210,092 by tuberculosis 6/6/05 5:30:42 PM 8/21/07 6:08:46 AM Reply	If the insurance company thinks so, they'll pay for it It's their risk - that's why you pay them. Car theft is not your problem. If you don't buy it and the car is stolen, they'll buy you a new car. The fact that they don't require it or rate discount heavily for it, implies that their actuaries think that it is more economical to take the chance and bet it won't be stolen. Add to this the thought that thieves usually are often taking a car to perform some risky activity. For instance, a family station wagon was taken from a service garage where the mechanic started it to let it warm up before performing some check. The car was found filled with greasy car parts. If taken, your car will likely be damaged within the first couple of hours - trust me - you don't want it back. You want a new car. "Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" --Mark Twain "The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." --Albert Einstein "This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses." --George W. Bush Edited by tuberculosis Aug. 21, 2007, 06:08:46 AM EDT Expand All History
Post #210,094 by pwhysall 6/6/05 5:38:49 PM Reply	How odd all this is. Over here, car theft (usually for profit) was, at one point, endemic, and is now decreasing (for the following reason) That's why if you get into any UK-spec car without the keys, your chances of starting it usually hover around the "nil" mark for anything made in the last 10 years. Even the \ufffd500 worth of Renault Laguna I used to have would be nigh-on impossible to start sans keys. That'd be why one of the most commonly burgled items is, in fact, car keys. Peter [link\|http://www.ubuntulinux.org\|Ubuntu Linux] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Post #210,101 by boxley 6/6/05 6:11:47 PM Reply	if the car starts by inserting a key into a tumbler you start the car by removing the pins and turn the tumbler with a screwdriver. Tools needed. One fast cordless drill, standard screwdriver. thanx, bill All tribal myths are true, for a given value of "true" Terry Pratchett [link\|http://boxleys.blogspot.com/\|http://boxleys.blogspot.com/] Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #210,104 by hnick 6/6/05 6:25:09 PM Reply	Slide hammer is faster than a drill.
Post #210,105 by rcareaga 6/6/05 6:32:35 PM Reply	Pair of scissors ...with electrical tape wrapped around one blade (the naked metal serving as the business end, the tape serving to insulate the bad guy's tender palm from harm as leverage was applied) was all it took to abscond with the SO's 1980 280Z at the end of 1999, after we'd been here about three months. The scissors were still stuck into the ignition when the car was recovered in nearby Richmond a few weeks later, having been abandoned and towed after the thieves blew the head gasket. She stashed the vehicle in a friend's garage for five years after that, and only returned it to functionality half a year ago when the friend decided she needed the garage for her own purposes. It now resides in her office parking lot near the waterfront, and is driven about fifteen miles a month. The arrangement does not make a great deal of sense to me, but the first time I raised this point persuaded me that little would be accomplished by raising it again. She does speak of having a cunningly-concealed kill switch installed, however. cordially, Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist.
Post #210,185 by pwhysall 6/7/05 1:29:47 AM Reply	OK. You're in. Now start it. UK spec cars are, like most, trivial to enter. They're not trivial to start, which is why twocking is increasingly associated with burglary. Peter [link\|http://www.ubuntulinux.org\|Ubuntu Linux] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Post #210,193 by static 6/7/05 2:39:32 AM Reply	Don't work for modern anti-theft ignition killers. The key has a little RFID-type thingy in it. If the ignition system doesn't recognise the code in the key, it doesn't start. And the correct key no longer works, either! There were copious warnings from Mitsubishi about this when I got my ignition key copied: buy the blank from them, get it cut somewhere, come back and we'll code it. I believe these are mandated in Australia, now. Wade. Save Fintlewoodlewix
Post #210,194 by pwhysall 6/7/05 2:53:35 AM Reply	That's certainly the case for my car. Peter [link\|http://www.ubuntulinux.org\|Ubuntu Linux] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Post #210,208 by boxley 6/7/05 8:31:47 AM Reply	cant press the valet button? better yet yank the 2 wires that go into it and tie them together which is what I did on my Aerostar when the rfid battery on my key died. For techno savvy folks you have strange ieas about how electricity works. The only thing you really need a key for is to unlock the steering wheel and there is ways around that as well. thanx, bill All tribal myths are true, for a given value of "true" Terry Pratchett [link\|http://boxleys.blogspot.com/\|http://boxleys.blogspot.com/] Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #210,209 by pwhysall 6/7/05 8:35:42 AM Reply	"Valet button"? No such thing on my car. If the key doesn't fit, the immobiliser stays on, and the engine doesn't start. Peter [link\|http://www.ubuntulinux.org\|Ubuntu Linux] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Post #210,210 by boxley 6/7/05 8:39:51 AM Reply	what is an immobilizer it is a device that separates 2 wires and uses a relay to join them when a signal is given, yank the farker out of the way and wire them directly. Alternatively run a wire from the positive cable on the battery directly to the coil and jump the solenoid Im off, yer walking. thanx, bill All tribal myths are true, for a given value of "true" Terry Pratchett [link\|http://boxleys.blogspot.com/\|http://boxleys.blogspot.com/] Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #210,211 by pwhysall 6/7/05 8:40:45 AM Reply	Never heard of that. Can't see it working on any car with electronic ignition, either (controlled by EMU which is connected to immobiliser) Peter [link\|http://www.ubuntulinux.org\|Ubuntu Linux] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Post #210,219 by boxley 6/7/05 9:57:26 AM Reply	how is it connected to an immobilizer? a wire? All tribal myths are true, for a given value of "true" Terry Pratchett [link\|http://boxleys.blogspot.com/\|http://boxleys.blogspot.com/] Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #210,237 by pwhysall 6/7/05 12:19:46 PM Reply	Indeed. Mr EMU starts up, says to Mr Immobiliser "Sir, have we a proper key?" Mr Immobiliser says, "Why, yes, we do." Mr EMU says, "That's a good thing. I can't start this here engine without that, you know." And Mr EMU then proceeds to deign to allow the electronic ignition to start. Peter [link\|http://www.ubuntulinux.org\|Ubuntu Linux] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Post #210,241 by boxley 6/7/05 12:26:30 PM Reply	and the laguage they speak is called voltage bypass that sucker in a heartbeat. thanx, bill All tribal myths are true, for a given value of "true" Terry Pratchett [link\|http://boxleys.blogspot.com/\|http://boxleys.blogspot.com/] Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #210,243 by pwhysall 6/7/05 12:31:22 PM Reply	Right. If you can start Bill's car without keys on July 3 then I'll buy you a beer. Peter [link\|http://www.ubuntulinux.org\|Ubuntu Linux] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Post #210,245 by boxley 6/7/05 12:33:20 PM Reply	is this the widget in question? (new thread) Created as new thread #210244 titled [link\|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=210244\|is this the widget in question?] All tribal myths are true, for a given value of "true" Terry Pratchett [link\|http://boxleys.blogspot.com/\|http://boxleys.blogspot.com/] Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #210,353 by static 6/7/05 9:02:28 PM Reply	Don't have one of those. It's not a high-end car, anyway. And for all I know, the authentication happens between the EFI unit under the bonnet and the key. And the cylinder in the column is probably armoured. And I know it does more than just unlock the steering column because that interlock is actually broken in my car. I have a good idea how electricity works, thank you (I've built things electronic), and can recast at the problem of bypassing the correct key as a security problem. And that class of situation I am familiar with. Look, I'm not really interested in quite how it works because it works well enough. My previous car did not have such a system, nor an armoured cylinder and that led directly to it being a moderately popular model for theft. In the other direction, engine disabling mechanisms have gotten so good that thieves have taken to nicking the keys as well as the car. Sometimes at gun-point. Wade. Save Fintlewoodlewix
Post #210,187 by pwhysall 6/7/05 1:58:48 AM 6/7/05 2:00:18 AM Reply	Arse 1! Peter [link\|http://www.ubuntulinux.org\|Ubuntu Linux] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home]\r\nUse P2P for legitimate purposes! Edited by pwhysall June 7, 2005, 02:00:18 AM EDT Expand All History
Post #210,188 by pwhysall 6/7/05 1:59:21 AM 6/7/05 2:00:39 AM Reply	Arse 2! Peter [link\|http://www.ubuntulinux.org\|Ubuntu Linux] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home]\r\nUse P2P for legitimate purposes! Edited by pwhysall June 7, 2005, 02:00:39 AM EDT Expand All History
Post #210,190 by pwhysall 6/7/05 1:59:33 AM Reply	Falling Car Crime In The UK & The Great Insurance Ripoff (new thread) Created as new thread #210189 titled [link\|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=210189\|Falling Car Crime In The UK & The Great Insurance Ripoff] Peter [link\|http://www.ubuntulinux.org\|Ubuntu Linux] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home]\r\nUse P2P for legitimate purposes!
Post #210,120 by ben_tilly 6/6/05 8:14:47 PM 6/6/05 9:16:17 PM Reply	Purchased I got the questionable service charge removed. Wound up with a cash deal. List price $19,600. With charges, taxes, etc $17,400. They lost about $1000. (But will get their next shipment in that much faster, with the oh so profitable Priuses. Random note, 20 minutes away there is a Toyota dealer that sells the Prius for a more reasonable price, and presumably would not give me that deal...) I'm still disoriented from a negotiation that started with them making a loss. They weren't supposed to do that! Cheers, Ben PS At the last moment I went with no LoJack because a survey of co-workers showed that only the BMW owner had it (or thought it worthwhile), and he had it because it saved enough on his insurance to pay for itself. I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother) Edited by ben_tilly June 6, 2005, 09:16:17 PM EDT Expand All History
Post #210,125 by Another Scott 6/6/05 8:35:53 PM Reply	Congrats!
Post #210,135 by boxley 6/6/05 9:18:17 PM Reply	car dealers never lose :-) but they depend on you thinking that they do. A new car on the lot is leased by the dealer until sold. He only has a couple of hundred into each machine. Now you cut mightily into his profits but he still turns a car and you are another satisfied customer. thanx, bill All tribal myths are true, for a given value of "true" Terry Pratchett [link\|http://boxleys.blogspot.com/\|http://boxleys.blogspot.com/] Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #210,142 by ben_tilly 6/6/05 9:48:01 PM Reply	He lost according to Toyota's figures I explained the game briefly above. Here's a longer explanation. The dealer doesn't control the mix of cars they get. So they deliberately take a loss on some lines to move them and justify getting more profitable lines in stock. Looked at another way, since the dealer doesn't control what is in a shipment, they juggle their internal notion of the prices to be able to sell the whole shipment faster. According to what Toyota says the price to the dealer was, the dealer lost money. According to the internal shell game, the dealer made money. As long as their internal prices add up to the cost of the shipment, and they clear the whole shipment at about the same time, they can afford to play by these internal figures. If they have lines where they can charge absurd prices and sell them as fast as they come in, the internal figures are going to be much more profitable than Toyota's figures. It sucks to look for a Prius at that dealer. It is great to look for a Corolla or Camry. Even with complete access to the dealer's books, you'll never know where you can begin bargaining. (From the dealer's point of view, yet another reason to use their figures rather than Toyota's.) Cheers, Ben I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
Post #210,154 by dws 6/6/05 10:46:31 PM Reply	Re: He lost according to Toyota's figures Congratulations. I saw a lot of the dealer's side of that shell game when I was growing up. Ford shipped most of their dealers the same mix of cars, whether or not, for one example, convertables where selling in Midwest in December when there was a foot of snow on the ground. Dealers trade among themselves, but it's expensive to ship cars. Better for the dealer to take a loss on a few of the slow sellers. The standard advice^* my Dad, the ex Ford and Toyota dealer, hands out is to keep up with oil changes (even if you do 'em yourself), and to watch your tire pressure. Low tire pressure can throw off the alignment, which leads to more expensive problems. --- ^* His other advise, FWIW, is that almost all car problems can be resolved by removing the gas cap. Then, with the cap removed, drive a new car in under the cap, and put the cap back on the new car.
Post #210,585 by cforde 6/9/05 3:02:31 AM Reply	suggestion.. if the back windows aren't already tinted, get them tinted. Especially if the youngster is going to be in the back seat. A roasted child is a terrible thing. If you do decide to get the windows tinted, don't go cheap on it or you'll have ugly, bubbly windows. Spend the extra to have it done right. I had the Altima's windows done 8 years ago; while the tint has faded a bit, there are no bubbles. The difference for people travelling in the back has been well worth the cost. Have fun, Carl Forde
Post #210,654 by ben_tilly 6/9/05 2:25:15 PM Reply	I'll definitely think about that I won't do it immediately, though, because this is going to be my commute car, not the main family car. But I'll keep it in mind in case circumstances change. Cheers, Ben I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
Post #210,656 by ben_tilly 6/9/05 2:25:28 PM Reply	ICLRPD (new thread) Created as new thread #210655 titled [link\|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=210655\|ICLRPD] I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)

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