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New Read any anthropology?
Margaret Mead, Ruth Benedict et al?

You have virtually reduced the range of human 'values' to $$-prices. I believe that this is an example of a scale problem and maybe the looking for the dropped coin by the streetlamp - even though you dropped it in the dark - the ones humans have proven so considerably inept at dealing with:

global warming (or not), comets, asteroids (or not) National Health, etc. - because we much prefer to deal with problems we can put numbers on. And spreadsheets - the new curse of Organization Man.

I don't know where to begin with 'proving' an economic thesis, when we are supposedly dealing with the viability of a society - whose rules for interpersonal behaviour only incidentally do (and must) provide for survival and a semblance of "sharing the wealth" as well as the work.

(See my reply to your post #95253 - I started at the bottom)

In brief - these are inextricably entwined - however nice it might seem to pretend that One Comes First and then you layer-on all the rest of human qualities. Isn't that a lot like

adding Security to Windoze (or networking, for that matter - to a design that was always single-user) ??

Sorry but.. I don't think much can be done with this postulate. It's not even Wrong. Hell.. maybe this last *is Why!* we worship Capitalism as the actual National God: it has so little to do with what an 'authentic life' might value!

(Corollary - whatever an 'authentic life might be' - it sure as hell isn't about "endless consumption"!) IMhO.
When I look at any society on the face of the earth, true non-selfish behavior only arises when ALL other needs are met. Life is inherently selfish.
Altruism is everywhere. Why? Unanswerable - it creates endorphins, is the clinical answer. Without it, no child would reach maturity. In the death camps, there were those who gave much of their pittance to others. While there were also Me-Me aberrations - in that 0-economics environment, there was *sharing*. As also in the Warsaw Ghetto. ETC.

This has become too dreary. Next you would want proof (?!) Want a new postulate?

Econ theory simply fails to encapsulate human beings. Certain economic rule sets tend to exaggerate innate qualities; really lousy economic rules bring out the worst. We don't yet know what rule set might bring out the best - and we aren't trying to find that: we want to work backwards because it is about numbers and it's so very much simpler.

There: the Anti-Econ Postulate for the creation of a New Authentic Society. Someday, when we grow up.


Ashton
New Yes.
You have virtually reduced the range of human 'values' to $$-prices.
No, I haven't. I'm saying that any society that wants to be stable must recognize the inherent selfishness of people. Selfishness most often expresses itself in economic terms; this isn't about the almighty dollar no matter how much people want to frame it in those terms to have a strawman to knock down.

Altruism is everywhere. Why? Unanswerable - it creates endorphins, is the clinical answer.
No, it isn't unanswerable. If you are talking about social grooming, then you're mistaken. Social grooming is a trade. Endorphins for acceptance. Groom the leader... if he feels good, he'll let you stay and eat. If you're the groomer, you also get to eat the high protein pests. The grooming fulfilled an evolutionary push to create a stable society because individuals were better off in a stable group. If there were no advantage to being in a group, the grooming wouldn't have evolved.

As far as the Warsaw Ghetto goes, remember, this is a general idea. Such ideas always break down at the extremes.
Regards,

-scott anderson

"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
     On exporting corporate culture... - (admin) - (44)
         Well as being an generalization - (boxley) - (3)
             Huh... Guess we're looking at a revolution here... - (inthane-chan) - (1)
                 naw, racial infighting lets the pressure off - (boxley)
             ICLRPD (new thread) - (drewk)
         General agreement, but there are always exceptions. - (Another Scott) - (7)
             Re: General agreement, but there are always exceptions. - (admin) - (2)
                 Pax Romana looked different from the ground - (rcareaga) - (1)
                     Understand, I'm not making a moral statement. - (admin)
             You're half right - (drewk) - (3)
                 Bingo. - (Ashton) - (2)
                     Brin talks about this at length in "The Transparent Society" - (inthane-chan) - (1)
                         Think I've heard this extrapolation - - (Ashton)
         Not an endorsement of the "corporate mindset"? - (mmoffitt) - (22)
             I'm not entirely convinced about the whole... - (inthane-chan) - (5)
                 turn the fan on :) - (boxley) - (4)
                     You're a good man, Bill. -NT - (Another Scott) - (2)
                         na, If I was single she could have earned the rent :) -NT - (boxley) - (1)
                             Ah, but you're not and offered help anyway. :-) -NT - (Another Scott)
                     Well done, my friend. -NT - (mmoffitt)
             Economics != capitalism - (admin) - (7)
                 Communism=economic model -NT - (boxley) - (4)
                     What's your point? -NT - (admin) - (3)
                         pointing out that Mike is not slinging plattitudes - (boxley) - (2)
                             Communism is first and foremost an economic model - (admin) - (1)
                                 fair enuff -NT - (boxley)
                 Read any anthropology? - (Ashton) - (1)
                     Yes. - (admin)
             provenance of profit - (rcareaga) - (2)
                 eh? Ive got nought against communism - (boxley) - (1)
                     Exactly. Communism doesn't recognize that humans are selfish - (admin)
             let rearrange the words a tad - (boxley) - (1)
                 Which brings us to the Information Devolution - (Ashton)
             Do you have kids? - (drewk) - (2)
                 My thoughts were along those lines as well. - (Another Scott) - (1)
                     he has kids and we have discussed this before - (boxley)
         hmm..let the ripping begin? - (Simon_Jester) - (8)
             Good point. - (admin) - (7)
                 This is why I have trouble with cute logic - (Ashton) - (6)
                     Nice strawman. - (admin) - (5)
                         Still, and consistently - (Ashton) - (4)
                             Hand waving, IMO. -NT - (admin) - (3)
                                 Yours is the correct thesis in one place - - (Ashton) - (2)
                                     Says who? - (admin) - (1)
                                         OK you win on semantics - - (Ashton)

Some have good ideas and some.. just have ideas.
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