General agreement, but there are always exceptions.

Post #95,187 by Another Scott 4/8/03 9:22:39 PM Reply	General agreement, but there are always exceptions. There are a few true altruists out there. They sacrifice themselves because they think it's the right thing to do, not because they've tried to maximize a differential equation of what's best for society. But you're talking about the majority, I know. :-) There have been several examples in the last 50 years of societies that have developed a prosperous economy and yet have a restrictive political system. Singapore is one that comes to mind. But in this case, and probably in some others, a dominant culture was imposed along with the imposition of "free" economic policies. As such, they're often, and maybe invariably, linked. We can have relatively free societies that are poor - e.g. [link\|http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/cs.html\|Costa Rica] with $8500/person GDP [at Purchasing Power Parity] vs. the US's $36,300/person GDP at PPP. And we can have relatively prosperous societies with repressive governments - e.g. Singapore with a GDP/person of $27,400 at PPP. If someone/some group were able to control the governments of the world the way Lee Kwan Yu did in Singapore, then the conclusion we drew about whether culture or economics was more important in world government would be more difficult. The UN obviously only has as much power as the Great Five powers gave it after WWII. As such, I believe that any world government must arise only after we have solved the issues of inefficient economies on a global scale. It really depends on whether any prospective world government is imposed or is agreed-to voluntarily. As you said, the EC and NAFTA are institutions that are much easier to construct than any larger form of government. It's easier to sell them to voters: "We'll have more trade, the economy will be more efficient, etc.!" versus "The people in East Nordlund will have to meet the same safety and cosmetic purity standards as us!" People (generally) don't like government very much. They put up with it to the extent that they see benefits. Layering another superstructure of government on top of traditional soverignty will be a hard sell. Look at the difficulty Giscard d'Stang (sp?) is having in drawing up an EU constitution. In short, I think it's an accident of our times that economics comes first. I hope it continues to be that way - i.e. people associating voluntarily for their own economic interests rather than being conquered or having another layer of government imposed upon them. My $0.02. Cheers, Scott.
Post #95,194 by admin 4/8/03 9:41:36 PM Reply	Re: General agreement, but there are always exceptions. It really depends on whether any prospective world government is imposed or is agreed-to voluntarily. That's actually one of the main themes here. People won't agree to a world government unless it is first and foremost based in economics. In short, I think it's an accident of our times that economics comes first. I don't think so. One of the most successful societies of all time was the Roman Empire. This was an agglomeration of wildly different cultures brought together by conquest, yes, but maintained more by economic benefits - the Pax Romana. Peace is good for business, in the long term. There are and will be temporarily over-riding concerns, such as despotism, barbarian hordes, corrupt leadership, but in the long run the economics is what drives the cooperation, not the cultures. Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #95,260 by rcareaga 4/8/03 11:14:03 PM Reply	Pax Romana looked different from the ground admin observes: One of the most successful societies of all time was...an agglomeration of wildly different cultures brought together by conquest, yes, but maintained more by economic benefits - the Pax Romana "Pax Romana" comes to us via Tacitus from a disgruntled chief of Britain, who said of the Romans "Pillagers of the world, they have exhausted the land by their indiscriminate plunder ... The only people on Earth to whose covetousness both riches and poverty are equally tempting. To robbery, butchering, and rapine, they give the lying name of government; they create desolation and call it peace." I grant that his tame descendants a couple of centuries on looked at things differently, and their descendants probably remembered the Pax Romana with regretful nostalgia, but the imposition of this utopia is not necessarily to be welcomed unless we wish to justify the sundry hardships and cruelties of the transition with an eye to the glorious future these will purchase in the by-and-by--and didn't a bunch of Russians just act out that shaggy dog story to its sour punchline the other century? cordially, "Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist."
Post #95,263 by admin 4/8/03 11:22:14 PM Reply	Understand, I'm not making a moral statement. Regardless of how it came about, the Roman Empire lasted an awfully long time, and it lasted while it was economically viable. Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #95,318 by drewk 4/9/03 9:12:47 AM Reply	You're half right People (generally) don't like government very much. People don't like when the government tells them how to live their lives, but they seem to relish in the ability to use government to tell the other guy how to live his life. === Implicitly condoning stupidity since 2001.
Post #95,456 by Ashton 4/9/03 4:53:16 PM Reply	Bingo. Nobody ever said 'we' were consistent - just logicians.
Post #95,457 by inthane-chan 4/9/03 4:55:44 PM Reply	Brin talks about this at length in "The Transparent Society" Highly suggested reading. Trust me. After 9/11, Bush made two statements: 1. "Terrorists hate America because America is a land of freedom and opportunity." 2. "We intend to attack the root causes of terrorism." Sounds like everything is going according to plan.
Post #95,958 by Ashton 4/11/03 2:11:52 AM Reply	Think I've heard this extrapolation - re privacy, but will put it on list for lib. time. And you might enjoy (or choke on) the er masterful interpolations within The Light of Other Days, Arthur C. Clarke & Stephen Baxter through the development of the "worm cam" and --> Onwards. If science 'fiction' is best when it addresses and extrapolates trends ~ believably: well ... we ARE a species of voyeurs, after all is said and obfuscated. Hmm, where'd you get That birthmark, Suzy? S'OK -- we Could get used to flying naked, you know ;-) Hell.. it might even break the Puritan death-grip on the Murican psyche! After all, the handshake originated as evidence of a naked arms-free "hand". Techno now lets us hide nastier small weapons almost anywhere.. And so it goes. Ashton

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