Not an endorsement of the "corporate mindset"?

Post #95,203 by mmoffitt 4/8/03 10:01:46 PM Reply	Not an endorsement of the "corporate mindset"? In what way? With all due respect, it reads like a fatwah for the corporate mindset. Economic prosperity outweighs culture? Only if one is a died-in-the-wool capitalist. (Aside: I wish I could remember who told me this when I was a child. It was probably in Russia, but I can't say that for sure. For whatever reason it's been stuck in my head for over 30 years: "The profit on an item is the amount in excess of the item's worth that you were able to extort from some one.") Your assertion that "Human beings are inherently selfish." is false. It should be written "Capitalists are inherently selfish." Moreover, Capitalists think selfishness is a good thing. Capitalists the world over say, "Greed is Good. Greed feeds you. Greed clothes you. Greed is how you get ahead." It may look like all human beings are selfish because the cancer of capitalism has spread throughout the world in the last century. But selfishness is a LEARNED behavior. Why teach selfishness? Because it feeds the capitalist monster and capitalist monster feeds the corporations - and we all, in a capitalist society, are mere servants to corporations. Ah, I hear you say, but communism doesn't work. It could, but likely it won't be allowed to. What was the reason behind the various Red Scares in our history? It was the realization of the corporate/capitalist monsters that there are a lot more people in the bottom 90% than there are in the top 1%. The western capitalists could not take the risk of a genuine worker's revolution succeeding. For if it did, it could happen here. And that would mean that less than 14% of all the private wealth in this country would be held by the top 1%; a condition the ruling corporate class could not bear. The real fear in the Red Scares was that some one might actually succeed at a worker's revolution. It might yet come, but I doubt it. It would require an enlightened population and an enlightened population is an anathema to a capitalist society. So, in the final analysis I may not differ too much from your view. For it seems to me that the great battle has been fought and the Utopian Worker's Paradise has indeed lost to the morally vacuous Capitalist menace. More is the pity. It seems all there is left to do is hope that a rather largish comet or asteriod will again strike our little blue ball. Perhaps the next species will do better. bcnu, Mikem The soul and substance of what customarily ranks as patriotism is moral cowardice and always has been...We have thrown away the most valuable asset we had-- the individual's right to oppose both flag and country when he (just he, by himself) believed them to be in the wrong. We have thrown it away; and with it all that was really respectable about that grotesque and laughable word, Patriotism. - Mark Twain, "Monarchical and Republican Patriotism"
Post #95,213 by inthane-chan 4/8/03 10:17:42 PM Reply	I'm not entirely convinced about the whole... "selfish" as the basis of all human behavior either. Gotta coagitate, I feel something big coming. After 9/11, Bush made two statements: 1. "Terrorists hate America because America is a land of freedom and opportunity." 2. "We intend to attack the root causes of terrorism." Sounds like everything is going according to plan.
Post #95,234 by boxley 4/8/03 10:44:38 PM Reply	turn the fan on :) Selfish is a base need. Once selfish is satisfied other folks needs can be seen and assisted. For some selfish rules all Stalin Hitler etc. Others selfish is easily satisfied, mother Teresa, thousands of unknown ordinary people. Charity does not have to be governmentally organised. It begins with individuals seeing a need and thinking of a way to fufil it. Example, today I was walking out of the local county govt offices thinking that the young women in front of me had a nice *** pushing a baby stroller. Being the dirty old man that I am I swung around to see the frontal aspect and noticed she was crying hard, her 2 yr old pretty little girl was smiling in innocence. Asked what was wrong, her husband beat her up, he's in jail. He sent a friend to take the car and she couldnt pay rent. Now WTF do I do? I ask her if she has family. She does about 700 miles away. Gave her my card and told her I could provide bus fare for her to go home. She would think about it she said. Now I could have directed her to a shelter, or a pimp for that matter but the little baby didnt have choices so I offered what I could. Many of us here are the same way but I dont think it could be legislated meaningfully without becoming another beaurocratic fiefdom where the client is the last need to be taken care of. Religious charity can also morph into a fiefdom because the caring people get burned out and the hustlers take over. Jesse the Jackson is a prime example. I think the Jesse Jackson who walked tall beside Dr King would recoil in horror at what he has become today. thanx, bill will work for cash and other incentives [link\|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html\|skill set] questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org] Since corporations are the equivelent of human but they have no "concience" they are by definition sociopaths
Post #95,237 by Another Scott 4/8/03 10:47:55 PM Reply	You're a good man, Bill.
Post #95,242 by boxley 4/8/03 10:50:20 PM Reply	na, If I was single she could have earned the rent :) will work for cash and other incentives [link\|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html\|skill set] questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org] Since corporations are the equivelent of human but they have no "concience" they are by definition sociopaths
Post #95,244 by Another Scott 4/8/03 10:51:14 PM 4/8/03 10:52:00 PM Reply	Ah, but you're not and offered help anyway. :-) Edited by Another Scott April 8, 2003, 10:52:00 PM EDT Expand All History
Post #95,396 by mmoffitt 4/9/03 1:05:12 PM Reply	Well done, my friend. bcnu, Mikem The soul and substance of what customarily ranks as patriotism is moral cowardice and always has been...We have thrown away the most valuable asset we had-- the individual's right to oppose both flag and country when he (just he, by himself) believed them to be in the wrong. We have thrown it away; and with it all that was really respectable about that grotesque and laughable word, Patriotism. - Mark Twain, "Monarchical and Republican Patriotism"
Post #95,226 by admin 4/8/03 10:33:40 PM Reply	Economics != capitalism A particular form of economic efficiency depends on the current conditions. 8000 years ago it was agriculture. Today capitalism happens to be a very successful embodiment of efficient economy, but that says absolutely nothing about my base premise. The type of economics has nothing to do with my point. The fact that it must be there does. Economic prosperity outweighs culture? Only if one is a died-in-the-wool capitalist. Any counter-examples, then? Again, my posittion is that economics is more important to a stable society (nation state/city/whatever unit of governance you wish to use) than is culture. I'm not making any judgments on the desirability of that state, but rather just commenting that this seems to be how it works. Your assertion that "Human beings are inherently selfish." is false. It should be written "Capitalists are inherently selfish." Moreover, Capitalists think selfishness is a good thing. Capitalists the world over say, "Greed is Good. Greed feeds you. Greed clothes you. Greed is how you get ahead." Again, counter-examples? If you believe this so strongly you must have some basis for that opinion other than rhetoric. When I look at any society on the face of the earth, true non-selfish behavior only arises when ALL other needs are met. Life is inherently selfish. This may not agree with your ideals, but I'm being practical here. This isn't about wishes, it's about how it actually works. Like I said, I'm more interested in an actual discussion than posturing and bluster. Try looking at it without knee-jerk blinders on. If you can't manage that, then please step out. Or, if I need to elaborate on something, point it out. Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #95,235 by boxley 4/8/03 10:45:59 PM Reply	Communism=economic model will work for cash and other incentives [link\|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html\|skill set] questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org] Since corporations are the equivelent of human but they have no "concience" they are by definition sociopaths
Post #95,236 by admin 4/8/03 10:46:36 PM Reply	What's your point? Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #95,241 by boxley 4/8/03 10:49:48 PM Reply	pointing out that Mike is not slinging plattitudes but argueing from his prefered economic model regarding culture first, thanx, bill will work for cash and other incentives [link\|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html\|skill set] questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org] Since corporations are the equivelent of human but they have no "concience" they are by definition sociopaths
Post #95,249 by admin 4/8/03 10:55:25 PM Reply	Communism is first and foremost an economic model masquerading as a culture. Which supports my point, that economics comes first. The fact that it isn't a particularly good model says less about my point than it does about communism. Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #95,254 by boxley 4/8/03 11:00:58 PM Reply	fair enuff will work for cash and other incentives [link\|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html\|skill set] questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org] Since corporations are the equivelent of human but they have no "concience" they are by definition sociopaths
Post #95,303 by Ashton 4/9/03 4:28:09 AM Reply	Read any anthropology? Margaret Mead, Ruth Benedict et al? You have virtually reduced the range of human 'values' to $$-prices. I believe that this is an example of a scale problem and maybe the looking for the dropped coin by the streetlamp - even though you dropped it in the dark - the ones humans have proven so considerably inept at dealing with: global warming (or not), comets, asteroids (or not) National Health, etc. - because we much prefer to deal with problems we can put numbers on. And spreadsheets - the new curse of Organization Man. I don't know where to begin with 'proving' an economic thesis, when we are supposedly dealing with the viability of a society - whose rules for interpersonal behaviour only incidentally do (and must) provide for survival and a semblance of "sharing the wealth" as well as the work. (See my reply to your post #95253 - I started at the bottom) In brief - these are inextricably entwined - however nice it might seem to pretend that One Comes First and then you layer-on all the rest of human qualities. Isn't that a lot like adding Security to Windoze (or networking, for that matter - to a design that was always single-user) ?? Sorry but.. I don't think much can be done with this postulate. It's not even Wrong. Hell.. maybe this last is Why! we worship Capitalism as the actual National God: it has so little to do with what an 'authentic life' might value! (Corollary - whatever an 'authentic life might be' - it sure as hell isn't about "endless consumption"!) IMhO. When I look at any society on the face of the earth, true non-selfish behavior only arises when ALL other needs are met. Life is inherently selfish. Altruism is everywhere. Why? Unanswerable - it creates endorphins, is the clinical answer. Without it, no child would reach maturity. In the death camps, there were those who gave much of their pittance to others. While there were also Me-Me aberrations - in that 0-economics environment, there was sharing. As also in the Warsaw Ghetto. ETC. This has become too dreary. Next you would want proof (?!) Want a new postulate? Econ theory simply fails to encapsulate human beings. Certain economic rule sets tend to exaggerate innate qualities; really lousy economic rules bring out the worst. We don't yet know what rule set might bring out the best - and we aren't trying to find that: we want to work backwards because it is about numbers and it's so very much simpler. There: the Anti-Econ Postulate for the creation of a New Authentic Society. Someday, when we grow up. Ashton
Post #95,317 by admin 4/9/03 9:11:37 AM Reply	Yes. You have virtually reduced the range of human 'values' to $$-prices. No, I haven't. I'm saying that any society that wants to be stable must recognize the inherent selfishness of people. Selfishness most often expresses itself in economic terms; this isn't about the almighty dollar no matter how much people want to frame it in those terms to have a strawman to knock down. Altruism is everywhere. Why? Unanswerable - it creates endorphins, is the clinical answer. No, it isn't unanswerable. If you are talking about social grooming, then you're mistaken. Social grooming is a trade. Endorphins for acceptance. Groom the leader... if he feels good, he'll let you stay and eat. If you're the groomer, you also get to eat the high protein pests. The grooming fulfilled an evolutionary push to create a stable society because individuals were better off in a stable group. If there were no advantage to being in a group, the grooming wouldn't have evolved. As far as the Warsaw Ghetto goes, remember, this is a general idea. Such ideas always break down at the extremes. Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #95,245 by rcareaga 4/8/03 10:52:01 PM Reply	provenance of profit mmoffitt wonders: I wish I could remember who told me this..."The profit on an item is the amount in excess of the item's worth that you were able to extort from some one." I fear that knowing the answer here will serve merely to damn me in boxley's eyes, but surely this is just a restatement of the classical Marxist definition of surplus labor value as the difference between a worker's wage and the exchange value of his product, yes? in solidarity, "Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist."
Post #95,262 by boxley 4/8/03 11:19:24 PM Reply	eh? Ive got nought against communism As practiced by tribal entities in the Arctic it a highly successful model for survival. If a neighbor uses your stuff to further his resources without asking it imposes an obligation to use his stuff. It works extraordinarily well. The elders who over a lifetime have accumulated wealth (money to buy gas boats, small motors etc) are given shared catches, firewood and other usable items they are no longer always capable of doing for themselves. When such systems are brought into large population centers it is hijacked like most religions are by sycophants and abusers who use the system for wholesale theft. Do you thing that Kenneth Lay if born in Russia would not be the minister of energy today? I do. Like all models it has a deficiency, humans run it and selfish is the order of the day. Let me share a quote with you, Stalin inherited a nation with wooden ploughs and bequeathed a empire armed with atomic weapons. How can you say he lost? The men who came after him - they lost. Not Stalin. Stalin foresaw what would happen, of course. Krushchev, Molotov, Beria, Malenkov-they thought they were hard, but he saw thru them. "After I have gone, the capitalists will drown you like blind kittens" Robert Harris Communism is a great system, however when it is practiced those in charge tend to send people like me to the camps immediately. thanx, bill will work for cash and other incentives [link\|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html\|skill set] questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org] Since corporations are the equivelent of human but they have no "concience" they are by definition sociopaths
Post #95,265 by admin 4/8/03 11:24:11 PM Reply	Exactly. Communism doesn't recognize that humans are selfish And as a result, it doesn't work in large doses. In small societies, however, that selfishness prompts the sharing of resources as needed. Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #95,267 by boxley 4/8/03 11:27:01 PM Reply	let rearrange the words a tad I wish I could remember who told me this when I was a child. It was probably in Russia, but I can't say that for sure. For whatever reason it's been stuck in my head for over 30 years: "The profit on an item is the amount in excess of the item's worth that you were able to extort from some one. what you are describing is knowledge management. The knowledge which is the basis of all trade between non participants. I am being paid for the knowledge of where to sell a particular item that you as a seller do not have. That is the basis of a payment for my acumen. As long as it is not regulated that an individual may not sell without a go between it is a valid method of making a living. You are paying someone for their expertise. thanx, bill will work for cash and other incentives [link\|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html\|skill set] questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org] Since corporations are the equivelent of human but they have no "concience" they are by definition sociopaths
Post #95,300 by Ashton 4/9/03 3:15:05 AM Reply	Which brings us to the Information Devolution Knowledge makes $ $ makes Power .^.. Knowledge is Power Next throw in the Ken Lays who are always the polluted % of any aggregation: and in any system we shall find the opportunists - the crackers of humanity. Ergo the need for all those silly laws: aimed at the minority of Genuine Assholes. In the US - capitalism functions as a convex lens: amplifying the tendency to cheat.. while fucking with language to call that, 'Greed is Good'. Ergo - overall I'd deem the average communist from 1919 on.. a more honest person than the average Murican thru 4/'03. Different Petri dishes == different spread of the cupidity disease. We 'Won' That contest: You get to be a Celebrity if you steal enough and brag enough.. smile a lot and.. have good teeth in a right-shaped jaw. (Check the fotos of the Successful Men\ufffd) Ashton No illusions about What Murica Stands For, at all. PS - nice treatment of the lady in distress. But despite yer crusty exterior, I'm not surprised ;-) [that's supposed to be a compliment.. in Box-speak]
Post #95,325 by drewk 4/9/03 9:48:57 AM Reply	Do you have kids? But selfishness is a LEARNED behavior. People say that about lying, too. But as soon as a child learns to speak, they know that there are some things that mommy doesn't want to hear. Like she doesn't want to hear that Little Johnny ate the cookies, so he'll of course say that he didn't ... while he's still chewing them. People say, "like taking candy from a baby." Have you ever tried that? It ain't easy. And they won't like it. So even before they can talk, children understand about having things taken away from them, and they don't like it. Just like they don't like being told they can't have something they want. How is this not selfishness? === Implicitly condoning stupidity since 2001.
Post #95,350 by Another Scott 4/9/03 10:46:56 AM Reply	My thoughts were along those lines as well. Infants, of any species, don't survive unless they're selfish - they must demand sustanance from their parents. Especially in situations where there are N in the litter and only N-1 nipples. Considering others instead of just onesself is learned behavior. Usually. ;-) Cheers, Scott.
Post #95,355 by boxley 4/9/03 11:04:18 AM Reply	he has kids and we have discussed this before Im too lazy to look it up :-) thanx, bill will work for cash and other incentives [link\|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html\|skill set] questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org] Since corporations are the equivelent of human but they have no "concience" they are by definition sociopaths

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