Damn Politics!

Post #39,215 by orion 5/19/02 12:33:27 PM Reply	Damn Politics! I hate politics, but I guess now that I need to use them in my next job or I will be let go again? All I did was do my job the way I should have done it based on the payrate, the tasks at hand and the lack of management's ability to do their job correctly. The specs changed on a weekly basis, and then they wondered why my projects took too long. Gee, when I finish something all of a sudden it is not finished because they want more changes to it, so I start over making those changes again, until next week when they want more. Management could not make up its mind as to what they wanted. They will ultimately fail because of the pss poor management they have, and I will shed no tear when they finally notice it and go out of business. I am free now, to choose my own destiny.*
Post #39,234 by ben_tilly 5/19/02 9:58:22 PM Reply	Sigh Barry gives you an excellent explanation of how businesses work, and what it takes to be a truly valuable employee, and what you have to say is just, All I did was do my job the way I should have done it based on the payrate...? You act like an interchangable, disposable cog, and you are amazed when they choose to dispose of you to interchange with another cog? What is the problem with this picture? Act beyond what your nominal job is. Don't take bullshit. (Yes, you can talk back to management. If you are polite, cogent, and have a reason. They are likely to respect you for it, even if they try to discourage it.) Be willing to develop yourself outside of employment hours. Do this and people generally will notice (it may take switching jobs but oh well). But if you dutifully do only what you are told, demonstrate no capacity for thought, and don't make it clear what value you bring, you might as well wear a sign saying, "Kick me." Which is a sign you were clearly wearing while you were working, and are wearing now that you are unemployed. Cheers, Ben "... I couldn't see how anyone could be educated by this self-propagating system in which people pass exams, teach others to pass exams, but nobody knows anything." --Richard Feynman
Post #39,306 by orion 5/20/02 3:42:58 PM Reply	No new clog they didn't replace me, yet. I am unsure why since there are a lot of IT people looking for a job and they advertised in the Want Ads a few times. I was never given the chance to grow beyond what my job entailed. I was set up to fail countless times, and most of the time I didn't fail but a few times I did, mostly due to other people's imcompetance and them refusing to give me the info I needed or constantly changing the requirements and features and UI. I talked back to management, I was polite and has reasons, but they discouraged it, and later had a Zero Tolerance on talkback to management. Such a thing would get us fired. How could I develop myself outside of employment hours when they wanted me to work extra hours for no extra pay? Also I have a family and a child to help my wife take care of. My family life got in the way of my business life. Much as I wanted to get that 4 year degree or Microsoft cetification, I didn't have any time for it nor did I have the money. I developed a capacity for thought, I designed the UI and the database SQL statements for the first series of Intranet applications based on ASP before anyone else at the firm. I did this in 1997, and learned ASP from a book and on my own or with another developer. The only problem was that they did not want someone who thinks on his own. When I did my own thing, I was told to change it. They wanted a cog, or so they told me, so I became one. I did exactly what they wanted and it made me feel bad. I got feeling so bad about it that it lead to suicical thoughts. Then when I started to do my own thing again, I got put on probation for some asinine reasons that didn't make any sense to me. Basically they were out to screw me as hard as they could. If I don't get a job in three months, I will have no choice but to kill myself, as I won't have any income, and will lose the house. I became exactly what they wanted, now I am screwed. *I am free now, to choose my own destiny.*
Post #39,313 by Another Scott 5/20/02 4:47:46 PM Reply	You always have a choice. Always. Hang in there.
Post #39,324 by orion 5/20/02 5:52:55 PM Reply	I have limited choices Either I: #1 Get another job quick. #2 Lose house and wife and son. #3 Kill myself because I am worth more dead than alive right now. #4 File for disability and hope that my medical illnesses are enough to qualify. #5 Pray to God for a miricle. #6 Spend what I have on lottery tickets and hope I get lucky. #7 Work three jobs at fast food joints for minimum wage. *I am free now, to choose my own destiny.*
Post #39,356 by Another Scott 5/20/02 11:36:53 PM Reply	You have lots of choices. 1) Talk to an employment counsellor. S/he might be able to help you find out what you might be missing in your job search. 2) Take classes at night to improve your skills or learn new skills. You'll also meet new people you can network with. 3) Volunteer with some organization that needs your skills. You'll be able to network, learn new things, etc. 4) Go on a vacation to clear your mind and reconnect with your family. You don't have to go far, or even spend much time or money. It'll help you get out of your rut. 5) Get a job or two to pay the bills for a while as you work to improve your skills. Work nights if you have to. But use the time as a transition to help you get to where you want to be. 6) Exercise every day to improve your stamina, your health, and your outlook. If you've done some/most/all of these things, great! Keep at it. Just like the stock market, you can't time when a good position will reveal itself to you. You must be persistent. Most positions aren't filled by want ads. You need to be a "friend of a friend". You need to exist as more than just a resume. You need to be able to network with people. Best of luck. Cheers, Scott.
Post #39,409 by boxley 5/21/02 4:27:40 PM Reply	You only have one choice To live and accept what happens or not. Your kid would rather live under a bridge with dad than without you altogether. Commute like I do. Rent a room out to help with the mortgage. Work as a car salesman night and weekends so you can have days free for interviews. Apply for a sales job at compuserve or appleshop so you could help people make choices. You will also make contacts. Lose the house wife and kids and come sit under the bridge with me and doc, we'll drink cheap wine and you drink water and we will discuss philosphy and usta whazzes. Do day Labor. thanx, bill TAM ARIS QUAM ARMIPOTENS
Post #39,412 by orion 5/21/02 4:33:58 PM Reply	Thanks Bill what you said makes sense. I shouldn't kill myself because of my family needing me. I will do what I can to survive, even if my former employer may have blacklisted me. I'll live on, somehow, and face my demons right in the face. Let the fckers who screwed me over roast in Hell, as they deserve to be there. I am not sure about the commute, I still have my fear of highways and am sticking to local roads. On the highways I drive like Captain Kirk, if you know what that means, so I avoid the highways. Once I had a good job, but it turned sour due to boneheaded management and HR taking more control of the IS department. Then I lost it, and cannot find another to take its place. But I will find another someway somehow. I am free now, to choose my own destiny.*
Post #39,433 by imric 5/21/02 6:08:23 PM Reply	smile Don't say 'cannot'. Say 'have not'. It's more accurate... Imric's Tips for Living Paranoia Is a Survival Trait Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised... Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
Post #39,440 by CRConrad 5/21/02 6:47:41 PM Reply	Why do you seem so convinced that your wife is a bitch? One of O'Ryan's "alternatives": #2 Lose house and wife and son. I don't get it... Why would "Lose house" necessarily mean "Lose wife and son"? Yeah, let's say you lost your house. That would, presumably, mean she lost it too. So, if she's homeless (or, more realistically, forced to move into a small rented apartment) anyway... Why would she automatically dump you??? I can't see why she would be better off, materially, for it -- not to mention somehow "forced" to do it. Yet you seem to automatically assume it would be a necessary consequence. If you don't think she's a heartless bitch, then why would it? See how a little logic can help you out of at least one part of your depression? Yes, believe it or not, but this message is actually intended to cheer you up a little bit. Christian R. Conrad Of course, who am I to point fingers? I'm in the "Information Technology" business, prima facia evidence that there's bats in the bell tower. -- [link\|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=27764\|Andrew Grygus]
Post #39,463 by orion 5/21/02 11:33:51 PM Reply	If I lose the house I would have to have my wife and son live in an apartment while I try to get back on my feet. My wife works, but doesn't make enough to cover me, her, and my son. So I would have to have them on their own, and I would be living with my folks until I can earn enough to get a house back or get a larger apartment. Why did you assume that she would leave me? *I am free now, to choose my own destiny.*
Post #39,480 by CRConrad 5/22/02 7:28:47 AM Reply	But, Y the F wouldn't U live in SAME apt with wife & son ?!?
Post #39,552 by orion 5/22/02 8:04:18 PM Reply	Why wouldn't I? To keep expenses down for my wife, so that they only pay for themselves, unless I can make enough to pay for the apartment and food and utilities, etc as well as my wife. I don't want to be a burden on them, and would most likely be seperated until I can get a decent paying job. *I am free now, to choose my own destiny.*
Post #39,612 by CRConrad 5/23/02 10:41:35 AM Reply	What you're saying is, she'd let you starve. Nice marriage.
Post #39,635 by boxley 5/23/02 12:09:55 PM Reply	nope, his pride not her problem TAM ARIS QUAM ARMIPOTENS
Post #39,887 by CRConrad 5/25/02 7:51:11 AM Reply	Yeah, but that's what HE is saying here. It's exactly Norm's stupid fucking "pride" I'm talking about. Like, does he think some tiny one-room place to stay will magically cost more just because he lives in it too? Or that it will become cheaper for his wife to rent just because he doesn't? (OK, there's many weird things about US society I learn here that I didn't know before... But surely rents for ordinary apartments are based on the size of the apartment, not the size of the family living in it?) Does he seriously think his wife would want him to starve under some bridge with the winos, rather than half-starve in some tiny apartment with her, _at practically no additional expense_ for her?!? ('Practically', because it costs pretty much the same to cook for three as for two; and because the rent would stay exactly the same.) If he thinks that, then it's HE, not I, who thinks his wife doesn't give a shit about marriage vows, the love they're supposed to be based on, and all that. Then of course, he could be right... But then, if he is so convinced his marriage is doomed anyway, why the fuck doesn't he make the logical conclusion and get his head out of his "I can only look for jobs in the St Louis area because of my wife!" ass?!? Norm: Start practicing the phrase "Do you want fries with that?". There's no shame in that; you do what you have to do to get by. But, why the fuck am I telling you this... You sounded as if you understood and accepted this back when you had a lead on a retail re-stocking or warehouse inventory, or something of that kind, job six months ago -- and then, apparently because of your stupid "pride", you didn't take that either. If you're going to continue to be so stupidly "proud", then you've got only yourself to blame. (In stead of this underhanded blaming your wife that you're actually doing here.) Christian R. Conrad Of course, who am I to point fingers? I'm in the "Information Technology" business, prima facia evidence that there's bats in the bell tower. -- [link\|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=27764\|Andrew Grygus]
Post #39,915 by orion 5/25/02 4:51:54 PM Reply	Warehouse job I applied for it, didn't get it. I've applied for about a dozen jobs a week, and never get any of them or hardly hear back from them. Usually when I do, it is to tell me that I am not skilled enough, or am not qualified enough, or some other reason they do not want to hire me. I cannot even get those fast food jobs, but I keep on trying. Besides the food bills, there is the electric bill, other utilities, my medical bills (I pay between $300USD and $500USD for perscription medicine a month and owe the hospitals a whole shtload of money), my credit card bills (only way I can survive is charge it and pay it off later), and the gas money for my car. Rent, as you said, wouldn't be higher, but the other bills would be higher. I could always sleep on the couch if there is no room in the bed. I hate fast food jobs, I had two of them while in college. They work you too hard for minimum wage and I always get screwed out of the job after a while because of politics and favortism and because I don't smooze around with the managers. I am free now, to choose my own destiny.*
Post #39,960 by boxley 5/26/02 10:18:41 AM Reply	your last paragraph better be a humor because you are stating a pattern just like your programming job. I have been in the restaurant business. If you cant work like a dog for low wages I will find someone who can. There is no politics or schmoozing from a management prospective, I dont care if everyone on the staff hate a particular employee, if he is busting his balls to do the job thats who stays. Something else going on here. thanx, bill TAM ARIS QUAM ARMIPOTENS
Post #39,984 by orion 5/26/02 5:00:59 PM Reply	Re: your last paragraph better be a humor In a way it was, seems to me like most jobs are that way. But I cannnot even get hired for the low paying jobs right now. It really bums me out. *I am free now, to choose my own destiny.*
Post #39,672 by orion 5/23/02 2:13:32 PM Reply	No, what I am saying is that if I stayed with them, we'd all stave, if I left they would have enough to feed themselves. Better for just me to starve than all three of us. *I am free now, to choose my own destiny.*
Post #39,675 by boxley 5/23/02 2:20:54 PM Reply	could take a while anyway :) be good for you TAM ARIS QUAM ARMIPOTENS
Post #39,889 by CRConrad 5/25/02 8:05:05 AM Reply	What you're saying is pure fucking bullshit. Q: How much more does a two-hundred-square-foot one-room apartment cost when there's three people living in it, in stad of two? A: Not a single cent, as long as you have the fucking brains not to live in a bloody HOTEL. Q: How much more does it cost to cook for three people, than for two? A: Peanuts. Actually, if you started to cook -- that is, buy and use raw potatoes, raw vegetables, and occasionally raw fish or meat, in stead of all the take-out pizzas, frozen this, and microwave that, that you live on now -- you could pretty easily cook for three for less than you'd spend for two on your current diet. Now stop whining here as if you really thought your wife was some fucking ice queen (which is what you actually are saying, only never straight out in so many words), and go and get yourself a job at McDonald's, or as a street sweeper, pimp, or garbage man, or whatever the fuck that you actually have a chance of getting. Just stop fucking whining about your stupid "pride", at least until you've shown the world -- us here, your wife, but first and foremost yourself -- that you actually have anything to be proud about. And, BTW, if you bring up your previous fucking employer only ONCE again, after having promised so many times to stop snivelling about how boo-hoo mean they were to you, then I'm going to say something I'll^H^H^H^Hyou'll really regret -- so DON'T. Christian R. Conrad Of course, who am I to point fingers? I'm in the "Information Technology" business, prima facia evidence that there's bats in the bell tower. -- [link\|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=27764\|Andrew Grygus]
Post #39,916 by orion 5/25/02 5:02:05 PM Reply	What are you saying? I can't imagine you saying anything worse than you've already said, and I can imagine a lot. I suppose in some weird way this is supposed to help me? As I said in the other post, there are more to expenses than just food and rent. My perscription medicine bill can eat up a whole salary of flipping burgers at minimum wage, anything left after that will get eaten up by credit card payments and other bills. Go ahead and attack me on these things, it seems to be the best you can do. I am not sure how all this is supposed to help me? *I am free now, to choose my own destiny.*
Post #39,694 by hnick 5/23/02 3:39:55 PM Reply	Just for curiousity... didn't you guys do the usual richer & poorer, sickness & health routine? If so, which of you doesn't believe it now?
Post #39,803 by orion 5/24/02 10:43:46 AM Reply	Doesn't work in reality We both believe it, but why should we both go homeless or in the poor house? I've been sick so many times that it is hard for anyone to cope with, now I'll be poorer and it is even harder to cope with. I am not sure what to do if I cannot find a job in three months. Being sick and poor sucks. *I am free now, to choose my own destiny.*
Post #39,891 by hnick 5/25/02 8:54:39 AM Reply	Actually, it does The love and support of your mate is really a good and powerful thing to center on when it seems like your life is about to drop in the pot. It is very real. It can't be taken away either. You do have the option of throwing it away, and that is invariably to the detriment of all concerned. As CRC has observed, 3 can live about as cheaply as 2 and living in a cheap apt with your loved ones is a lot finer than living alone anywhere else. Goes for them as well, ya know? Being sick and poor does suck. There are worse hardships, trust me on this one, live long enough and you will gather first hand experience. And this too will pass... It looks like you are developing that whiney tone again.. that will stop you like a brick wall. It is apparent to potential employers and that kind of attitude will cause them to shred you resume right after the interview. Lose the tone and focus... It's about the 'tude dude... get with it.
Post #39,894 by Another Scott 5/25/02 9:56:30 AM Reply	Something to do in the meantime... [link\|http://stlcin.missouri.org/citypers/jobdetail.cfm?PosID=40\|School crossing guard] - $230 every 2 weeks for < 4 hours a day. It would get you outside, in a low stress environment, and give you a little income while you continue to look for a full-time position. For a full time position, look at the following: The MO Department of Corrections is looking for people, including people in IT - [link\|http://www.corrections.state.mo.us/division/hservice/hrm.htm\|here]. The MO Department of Agriculture is looking for someone to do weight inspection - [link\|http://www.mda.state.mo.us/edit/m3.htm\|here]. $969.50 semimonthly. There are many "merit" positions in IT listed [link\|http://www.oa.state.mo.us/pers/joa8009.shtml\|here] - the MO Office of Administration. You might want to consider working on a BS degree. [link\|http://stlcin.missouri.org/citypers/jobdetail.cfm?PosID=228\|Programmer/Analyst I] - $42k - $63.5k. A BS is required. Look into what it would take to get a BS degree. You should be able to get some credit for your associates degree, etc. I was able to find these things in about half an hour of Googling. I'm sure you can do better. "80% of life is just showing up." - Woody Allen. Hang in there. Cheers, Scott.
Post #39,325 by orion 5/20/02 5:55:43 PM Reply	I have limited choices Either I: #1 Get another job quick. #2 Lose house and wife and son. #3 Kill myself because I am worth more dead than alive right now. #4 File for disability and hope that my medical illnesses are enough to qualify. #5 Pray to God for a miricle. #6 Spend what I have on lottery tickets and hope I get lucky. #7 Work three jobs at fast food joints for minimum wage. *I am free now, to choose my own destiny.*
Post #39,348 by ben_tilly 5/20/02 9:47:05 PM Reply	You always have more choices You are convinced that there is nothing you could have done differently, nothing you can do now, and you feel there is nothing you can do. Inthane I can feel for. He is at the beginning of his career, things fcked up, he tried, but even so he sees that he still has choices like get into shape and become a firefighter, or go through bankruptcy proceedings. (And he even prioritizes his choices appropriately - he doesn't want to go bankrupt.) If he carries on like he is going right now, I don't know what he will be doing in 10 years, but he will be OK. I can't feel for you because a long time ago I learned the damned hard way that you cannot do anything for people who are not willing to take responsibility for their own life. I don't see that willingness. Yeah, you made bad choices. You fucked up. That happens. What are you doing about it now? Are you getting into shape? Have you written a program lately? Do you have any possibly employable skills outside of programming you could work on? Or are you hoping for the lottery while you watch wrestling on TV? I have seen people succeed like you wouldn't believe. And every single case I know* will happily tell you that their ability to deal with failure has been critical for their eventual successes. I am telling you that you have positive choices you can make. What they are I don't know since I don't know your situation. But I am morally convinced that they exist if you start creating the opportunities needed to find them. And conversely if you walk around feeling that things are hopeless, opportunities will close up when you get near. Really. However it seems to be more comfortable for you to fail and feel that there is nothing you can do about failing. That is your choice. And now that I have just vented some frustration over Barry wasting his time with you, my choice will be to exit this thread. Because I don't think that you are listening. Regards, Ben "... I couldn't see how anyone could be educated by this self-propagating system in which people pass exams, teach others to pass exams, but nobody knows anything." --Richard Feynman
Post #39,403 by orion 5/21/02 1:42:41 PM Reply	What I have been doing mostly is looking for another job. Other things I have been doing is watching my son, spending time with my wife, helping her clean the house, and working out at the YMCA with the 4 month trial I got there. I have designed the scematics for programs in a paper notebook of mine, I am scetching down ideas. I am trying to get a virtual server set up behind my firewall to show my ASP skills to the outside world, see the Network forum. It hurts me to hear you say I am not taking responsibility, because you don't know me that well and don't know what I have been doing. Everything I have done so far has blown up in my face or hasn't made any results. Sometimes I feel like why should I even bother? But that is the depression talking, and I am still trying to shake it off. Remember that my depression is creating the negative thoughts, I wish I could control it, like there was a button I could press to turn it off, but no such button exists. My health and job situations do not help at all to the depression it just makes it worse. I cannot avoid the negative thoughts any more than a diabetic can create their own insulin or a blind person can see. You may never understand this unless like me you have been clinically depression for a few years or more and cannot get rid of it. A friend of mine had it as bad as me, maybe worse, but he did find a cure, it involved a shotgun and his head. *I am free now, to choose my own destiny.*
Post #39,448 by inthane-chan 5/21/02 8:45:09 PM Reply	The Public Face versus The Private Face. I think I know where some of the problem is - it's in what you choose to reveal here. If you go through and look at your posts, I'm pretty safe in saying that 90% of your posts here about your current situation can be summed up as "My life sucks, I'm losing everything, and I'm going to kill myself." Now, note I said the word POSTS. You may be doing a lot about it, but that's not the face you show here. Since you don't show that face here, it's hard for us to see that part of you, and so we assume you're just whining your head off. InThane - Now running Ashton rev 2.0
Post #39,466 by orion 5/22/02 12:11:32 AM Reply	I am doing what I can to survive #1 Got the YMCA Trial Membership and using it. #2 In Design mode for some programs I am working on. Trying to get a Virtual Server set up to show off my ASP skills. #3 I'm spending more time with the wife and son. #4 Only stress I have is looking for a job. #5 Coping with my depression, which leads to some negative thoughts. But I am trying to overcome them. #6 Unemployment has me barely getting by, runs out in 12 weeks. #7 I'm setting up a small Intranet at home. If I can download it, I'll have a Red Hat 7.3 Server. I have old Pentium 1 systems from systems that I upgraded for other people a long time ago. Enough to slap in a network card. Windows 2000 Server, Windows 98SE, Windows 95 OSR2, OS/2 WARP 3, and soon Linux for a total of 5 machines networked. I got switch box to share four of them on the same monitor, keyboard, and mouse. The major problems are the lack of a job, the depression, and some health issues. *I am free now, to choose my own destiny.*

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