It's not dead

Post #39,113 by broomberg 5/17/02 11:31:00 PM Reply	It's not dead But a bad career bet can kill you. Don't think in terms of software industry, though, it's not. You have spent too much time at Borg central to see the other side. Software is a tool that runs businesses, not a business in itself except in rare instances. 95% of programmers work for companies that do not sell programs. That is why 95% of programmers love Open Source, and 5% HATE it. Open the paper and look at careers in general. Check out the want ads. Almost ALL of them are for positions less than $40K. Why would you expect ANY career start to be big bucks? That market is saturated with hacker wannabes, so companies will either underpay or be VERY picky on experience. My company is currently looking for 3 programmers, and will pay between $50K and $75K for them. We would expect at least 4 years of experience, and the pay will be based on skills and any "pluses". Look at any other career that is not a shingle professional (Dr, Lawyer, etc), and this pay scale is VERY good. You want to make REAL money? Go into sales.
Post #39,143 by orion 5/18/02 3:48:56 PM Reply	It's pining for the Fjords! Its not dead, yet, give it time to move most of the software jobs overseas. It happened to the manifactoring industry it could very well happen to the software industry. When five guys named Habib make the software in a software sweat shop in India for your company, expect to get downsized. Or if you find yourself like Desitter and have a dozen H1B Visa workers surronding you at work, expect to get canned like he did. *I am free now, to choose my own destiny.*
Post #39,147 by Ashton 5/18/02 4:27:14 PM Reply	Good One, Orion!____ [but..___ look at the lovely plumage!]
Post #39,207 by broomberg 5/19/02 10:06:15 AM Reply	Wrong analogy Time for some harsh reality. Business is in business to make money. Tasks that can be automated, will be automated. Tasks that can be handed off to the lowest priced person CAPABLE of doing them, will be. Where management fails is handing them down TOO low, which means screwed up projects, failed companies, etc. And they SHOULD fail. If 5 guys in a different time zone CAN do the same job, what value do you add that will swing the decision your way? All this is happening while your competetitor is trying to do the same, so you have to orchestrate a careful balance between managing too tight, which causes poor employee moral (the ones you keep), or managing too loose, which causes your competitor to win and you to go out of business. If you are doing a task that is "semi-automated", then you are ripe for full automation and having no job. So you have 2 choices. You either bite the bullet and automate yourself out of existance, which proves your attitude, and makes you MORE valuable to the company. Or, you continue doing your job, hoping not to be noticed. If you are not capable of automating yourself, but capable of doing the task, than you are not a programmer, you are a production person. Even if production includes some programming, this is still not what I consider a programmer. Even if the "specs" are changing, you should be able to construct an environment and train another person to use it. But that person better not think they are a programmer. This is the type of "well" paid position that is ripe for mass automation. You are essentially doing the same thing a piece of software could do. It just has not been worth it to your company to replace you. Yet. The second the cost associated with doing you job is enough, you are gone. Especially if there are multiple people doing the same time of work, which means the cost is far more and the cost of developing a system to replace you is spread out and more easily justified. If you are surrounded by people that all know your job, or can be trained to do your job, who owns the job? This is an scary thought for people. It is NOT YOUR JOB! It is the company's job. They choose you to do it, but they OWN it. The only thing you can do to ensure job safety is to ensure the success of your company, AND BE NOTICED doing it. Yup, politics. Gotta have both, ability and and good PR department. You might also do many other things to decrease competition for your position, but they are almost always short term solutions. There will ALWAYS be lower priced people. Why SHOULD the company pay you more? Become worth more based on knowledge, productivity, etc. But there is NO reason for a company to continue giving raises if the work force can be replaced. Other people talk about unionizing. NO WAY! Think about it. There is such a huge disparity of skills and abilities. Are you telling me a programmer in a legacy language doing a task that takes 3 weeks is more valuable than someone else who takes 2 days to do the same task? If they have business knowledge but skill atrophy, make them a project manager. And don't bother ranting about training for new skills. This is a TALENT. Skills are something you apply on top of it. If you can't spend a few weeks (nights, weekends) picking up a new skill, it is not likely any training you get by your employer will make any difference. The only thing they can offer is 1 to 2 week workshops, and if you can afford time off for a work shop, do they REALLY need you anyway? If they can't manage, and they can't code, why are they there? Are you going to pipe bomb my car because I can code that task in 2 days? Are you going to REQUIRE I take 3 weeks because that was the previous company norm? And as far as exporting jobs overseas, it is right for some yet not others. You can say the H1Bs are taking local jobs, but the cost differential is almost nothing. It is the same differential as hiring a less experienced person to do the job. And if they can, they should. You might find that less experienced person (in that particular job) has a better attitude on automation, better toolkit exposure, and an ability to add to the bottom line. In IT, a single person can make a huge difference. And if you are wrong, then the company should go out of business and the competitor who is making better decisions should win. My company almost DIED because the guy making the decisions refused to acknowledge reality. Our old technology bloated cost structure couldn't be passed onto clients anymore, and we started losing contracts for our services. He is no longer in charge, which means every person has to now carry their weight, and some people are not happy. Better the specific people not adding to the bottom line are unhappy than all of us. Wow. What a rant. Touchy subject with me, ehh?
Post #39,211 by folkert 5/19/02 10:31:56 AM Reply	Okies... Been my attitude all along. My job is to eliminate myself. Always has been, always will be. Automate the things you can, delegate(or hand off as you say) the things you can't, in pieces if need be. I run systems, I make em work and move on. I make systems run better and move on. I analyze tasks, piece them out, automate those pieces then move on. The real work I do, is not so much the removal of people from these systems, but in making things run smoother, with fewer problems caused by people. Allowing those people to do other tasks, that may become automated in the future. There are some things that will never be able to be FULLY automated, but pieces always will be. The more pieces you make automagic, the less problems you should have. Change capturing is the key to managing these pieces. Now, as for the issue of taking 3 weeks the "old" way or 2 days the "new" way... that all depends on policy, specifically systems policy. If this new way would break 200 established automated tasks... then yes, 3 weeks would by far be the better choice. If those 200 tasks only rely on the "results" of the old way... then 2 days is the correct choice. BUT, if we can migrate all those tasks to be compatible to the new way in 3 weeks, then the new way it is. Barry, you and I see things differently than most... I believe. We like to think what WILL be or COULD be or MAY be or SHOULD be.... not HAS TO be. Sure we understand what HAS TO be, but that is the end to the means... not using the ends to keep the means. If the work gets done in the right amount of time by the right amount of effort and the right amount of cost... does it really matter HOW? (barring legal and ethical matter that is) `greg, curley95@attbi.com -- REMEMBER ED CURRY!!!`
Post #39,215 by orion 5/19/02 12:33:27 PM Reply	Damn Politics! I hate politics, but I guess now that I need to use them in my next job or I will be let go again? All I did was do my job the way I should have done it based on the payrate, the tasks at hand and the lack of management's ability to do their job correctly. The specs changed on a weekly basis, and then they wondered why my projects took too long. Gee, when I finish something all of a sudden it is not finished because they want more changes to it, so I start over making those changes again, until next week when they want more. Management could not make up its mind as to what they wanted. They will ultimately fail because of the pss poor management they have, and I will shed no tear when they finally notice it and go out of business. I am free now, to choose my own destiny.*
Post #39,234 by ben_tilly 5/19/02 9:58:22 PM Reply	Sigh Barry gives you an excellent explanation of how businesses work, and what it takes to be a truly valuable employee, and what you have to say is just, All I did was do my job the way I should have done it based on the payrate...? You act like an interchangable, disposable cog, and you are amazed when they choose to dispose of you to interchange with another cog? What is the problem with this picture? Act beyond what your nominal job is. Don't take bullshit. (Yes, you can talk back to management. If you are polite, cogent, and have a reason. They are likely to respect you for it, even if they try to discourage it.) Be willing to develop yourself outside of employment hours. Do this and people generally will notice (it may take switching jobs but oh well). But if you dutifully do only what you are told, demonstrate no capacity for thought, and don't make it clear what value you bring, you might as well wear a sign saying, "Kick me." Which is a sign you were clearly wearing while you were working, and are wearing now that you are unemployed. Cheers, Ben "... I couldn't see how anyone could be educated by this self-propagating system in which people pass exams, teach others to pass exams, but nobody knows anything." --Richard Feynman
Post #39,306 by orion 5/20/02 3:42:58 PM Reply	No new clog they didn't replace me, yet. I am unsure why since there are a lot of IT people looking for a job and they advertised in the Want Ads a few times. I was never given the chance to grow beyond what my job entailed. I was set up to fail countless times, and most of the time I didn't fail but a few times I did, mostly due to other people's imcompetance and them refusing to give me the info I needed or constantly changing the requirements and features and UI. I talked back to management, I was polite and has reasons, but they discouraged it, and later had a Zero Tolerance on talkback to management. Such a thing would get us fired. How could I develop myself outside of employment hours when they wanted me to work extra hours for no extra pay? Also I have a family and a child to help my wife take care of. My family life got in the way of my business life. Much as I wanted to get that 4 year degree or Microsoft cetification, I didn't have any time for it nor did I have the money. I developed a capacity for thought, I designed the UI and the database SQL statements for the first series of Intranet applications based on ASP before anyone else at the firm. I did this in 1997, and learned ASP from a book and on my own or with another developer. The only problem was that they did not want someone who thinks on his own. When I did my own thing, I was told to change it. They wanted a cog, or so they told me, so I became one. I did exactly what they wanted and it made me feel bad. I got feeling so bad about it that it lead to suicical thoughts. Then when I started to do my own thing again, I got put on probation for some asinine reasons that didn't make any sense to me. Basically they were out to screw me as hard as they could. If I don't get a job in three months, I will have no choice but to kill myself, as I won't have any income, and will lose the house. I became exactly what they wanted, now I am screwed. *I am free now, to choose my own destiny.*
Post #39,313 by Another Scott 5/20/02 4:47:46 PM Reply	You always have a choice. Always. Hang in there.
Post #39,324 by orion 5/20/02 5:52:55 PM Reply	I have limited choices Either I: #1 Get another job quick. #2 Lose house and wife and son. #3 Kill myself because I am worth more dead than alive right now. #4 File for disability and hope that my medical illnesses are enough to qualify. #5 Pray to God for a miricle. #6 Spend what I have on lottery tickets and hope I get lucky. #7 Work three jobs at fast food joints for minimum wage. *I am free now, to choose my own destiny.*
Post #39,356 by Another Scott 5/20/02 11:36:53 PM Reply	You have lots of choices. 1) Talk to an employment counsellor. S/he might be able to help you find out what you might be missing in your job search. 2) Take classes at night to improve your skills or learn new skills. You'll also meet new people you can network with. 3) Volunteer with some organization that needs your skills. You'll be able to network, learn new things, etc. 4) Go on a vacation to clear your mind and reconnect with your family. You don't have to go far, or even spend much time or money. It'll help you get out of your rut. 5) Get a job or two to pay the bills for a while as you work to improve your skills. Work nights if you have to. But use the time as a transition to help you get to where you want to be. 6) Exercise every day to improve your stamina, your health, and your outlook. If you've done some/most/all of these things, great! Keep at it. Just like the stock market, you can't time when a good position will reveal itself to you. You must be persistent. Most positions aren't filled by want ads. You need to be a "friend of a friend". You need to exist as more than just a resume. You need to be able to network with people. Best of luck. Cheers, Scott.
Post #39,409 by boxley 5/21/02 4:27:40 PM Reply	You only have one choice To live and accept what happens or not. Your kid would rather live under a bridge with dad than without you altogether. Commute like I do. Rent a room out to help with the mortgage. Work as a car salesman night and weekends so you can have days free for interviews. Apply for a sales job at compuserve or appleshop so you could help people make choices. You will also make contacts. Lose the house wife and kids and come sit under the bridge with me and doc, we'll drink cheap wine and you drink water and we will discuss philosphy and usta whazzes. Do day Labor. thanx, bill TAM ARIS QUAM ARMIPOTENS
Post #39,412 by orion 5/21/02 4:33:58 PM Reply	Thanks Bill what you said makes sense. I shouldn't kill myself because of my family needing me. I will do what I can to survive, even if my former employer may have blacklisted me. I'll live on, somehow, and face my demons right in the face. Let the fckers who screwed me over roast in Hell, as they deserve to be there. I am not sure about the commute, I still have my fear of highways and am sticking to local roads. On the highways I drive like Captain Kirk, if you know what that means, so I avoid the highways. Once I had a good job, but it turned sour due to boneheaded management and HR taking more control of the IS department. Then I lost it, and cannot find another to take its place. But I will find another someway somehow. I am free now, to choose my own destiny.*
Post #39,433 by imric 5/21/02 6:08:23 PM Reply	smile Don't say 'cannot'. Say 'have not'. It's more accurate... Imric's Tips for Living Paranoia Is a Survival Trait Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised... Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
Post #39,440 by CRConrad 5/21/02 6:47:41 PM Reply	Why do you seem so convinced that your wife is a bitch? One of O'Ryan's "alternatives": #2 Lose house and wife and son. I don't get it... Why would "Lose house" necessarily mean "Lose wife and son"? Yeah, let's say you lost your house. That would, presumably, mean she lost it too. So, if she's homeless (or, more realistically, forced to move into a small rented apartment) anyway... Why would she automatically dump you??? I can't see why she would be better off, materially, for it -- not to mention somehow "forced" to do it. Yet you seem to automatically assume it would be a necessary consequence. If you don't think she's a heartless bitch, then why would it? See how a little logic can help you out of at least one part of your depression? Yes, believe it or not, but this message is actually intended to cheer you up a little bit. Christian R. Conrad Of course, who am I to point fingers? I'm in the "Information Technology" business, prima facia evidence that there's bats in the bell tower. -- [link\|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=27764\|Andrew Grygus]
Post #39,463 by orion 5/21/02 11:33:51 PM Reply	If I lose the house I would have to have my wife and son live in an apartment while I try to get back on my feet. My wife works, but doesn't make enough to cover me, her, and my son. So I would have to have them on their own, and I would be living with my folks until I can earn enough to get a house back or get a larger apartment. Why did you assume that she would leave me? *I am free now, to choose my own destiny.*
Post #39,480 by CRConrad 5/22/02 7:28:47 AM Reply	But, Y the F wouldn't U live in SAME apt with wife & son ?!?
Post #39,552 by orion 5/22/02 8:04:18 PM Reply	Why wouldn't I? To keep expenses down for my wife, so that they only pay for themselves, unless I can make enough to pay for the apartment and food and utilities, etc as well as my wife. I don't want to be a burden on them, and would most likely be seperated until I can get a decent paying job. *I am free now, to choose my own destiny.*
Post #39,612 by CRConrad 5/23/02 10:41:35 AM Reply	What you're saying is, she'd let you starve. Nice marriage.
Post #39,635 by boxley 5/23/02 12:09:55 PM Reply	nope, his pride not her problem TAM ARIS QUAM ARMIPOTENS
Post #39,887 by CRConrad 5/25/02 7:51:11 AM Reply	Yeah, but that's what HE is saying here. It's exactly Norm's stupid fucking "pride" I'm talking about. Like, does he think some tiny one-room place to stay will magically cost more just because he lives in it too? Or that it will become cheaper for his wife to rent just because he doesn't? (OK, there's many weird things about US society I learn here that I didn't know before... But surely rents for ordinary apartments are based on the size of the apartment, not the size of the family living in it?) Does he seriously think his wife would want him to starve under some bridge with the winos, rather than half-starve in some tiny apartment with her, _at practically no additional expense_ for her?!? ('Practically', because it costs pretty much the same to cook for three as for two; and because the rent would stay exactly the same.) If he thinks that, then it's HE, not I, who thinks his wife doesn't give a shit about marriage vows, the love they're supposed to be based on, and all that. Then of course, he could be right... But then, if he is so convinced his marriage is doomed anyway, why the fuck doesn't he make the logical conclusion and get his head out of his "I can only look for jobs in the St Louis area because of my wife!" ass?!? Norm: Start practicing the phrase "Do you want fries with that?". There's no shame in that; you do what you have to do to get by. But, why the fuck am I telling you this... You sounded as if you understood and accepted this back when you had a lead on a retail re-stocking or warehouse inventory, or something of that kind, job six months ago -- and then, apparently because of your stupid "pride", you didn't take that either. If you're going to continue to be so stupidly "proud", then you've got only yourself to blame. (In stead of this underhanded blaming your wife that you're actually doing here.) Christian R. Conrad Of course, who am I to point fingers? I'm in the "Information Technology" business, prima facia evidence that there's bats in the bell tower. -- [link\|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=27764\|Andrew Grygus]
Post #39,915 by orion 5/25/02 4:51:54 PM Reply	Warehouse job I applied for it, didn't get it. I've applied for about a dozen jobs a week, and never get any of them or hardly hear back from them. Usually when I do, it is to tell me that I am not skilled enough, or am not qualified enough, or some other reason they do not want to hire me. I cannot even get those fast food jobs, but I keep on trying. Besides the food bills, there is the electric bill, other utilities, my medical bills (I pay between $300USD and $500USD for perscription medicine a month and owe the hospitals a whole shtload of money), my credit card bills (only way I can survive is charge it and pay it off later), and the gas money for my car. Rent, as you said, wouldn't be higher, but the other bills would be higher. I could always sleep on the couch if there is no room in the bed. I hate fast food jobs, I had two of them while in college. They work you too hard for minimum wage and I always get screwed out of the job after a while because of politics and favortism and because I don't smooze around with the managers. I am free now, to choose my own destiny.*
Post #39,960 by boxley 5/26/02 10:18:41 AM Reply	your last paragraph better be a humor because you are stating a pattern just like your programming job. I have been in the restaurant business. If you cant work like a dog for low wages I will find someone who can. There is no politics or schmoozing from a management prospective, I dont care if everyone on the staff hate a particular employee, if he is busting his balls to do the job thats who stays. Something else going on here. thanx, bill TAM ARIS QUAM ARMIPOTENS
Post #39,984 by orion 5/26/02 5:00:59 PM Reply	Re: your last paragraph better be a humor In a way it was, seems to me like most jobs are that way. But I cannnot even get hired for the low paying jobs right now. It really bums me out. *I am free now, to choose my own destiny.*
Post #39,672 by orion 5/23/02 2:13:32 PM Reply	No, what I am saying is that if I stayed with them, we'd all stave, if I left they would have enough to feed themselves. Better for just me to starve than all three of us. *I am free now, to choose my own destiny.*
Post #39,675 by boxley 5/23/02 2:20:54 PM Reply	could take a while anyway :) be good for you TAM ARIS QUAM ARMIPOTENS
Post #39,889 by CRConrad 5/25/02 8:05:05 AM Reply	What you're saying is pure fucking bullshit. Q: How much more does a two-hundred-square-foot one-room apartment cost when there's three people living in it, in stad of two? A: Not a single cent, as long as you have the fucking brains not to live in a bloody HOTEL. Q: How much more does it cost to cook for three people, than for two? A: Peanuts. Actually, if you started to cook -- that is, buy and use raw potatoes, raw vegetables, and occasionally raw fish or meat, in stead of all the take-out pizzas, frozen this, and microwave that, that you live on now -- you could pretty easily cook for three for less than you'd spend for two on your current diet. Now stop whining here as if you really thought your wife was some fucking ice queen (which is what you actually are saying, only never straight out in so many words), and go and get yourself a job at McDonald's, or as a street sweeper, pimp, or garbage man, or whatever the fuck that you actually have a chance of getting. Just stop fucking whining about your stupid "pride", at least until you've shown the world -- us here, your wife, but first and foremost yourself -- that you actually have anything to be proud about. And, BTW, if you bring up your previous fucking employer only ONCE again, after having promised so many times to stop snivelling about how boo-hoo mean they were to you, then I'm going to say something I'll^H^H^H^Hyou'll really regret -- so DON'T. Christian R. Conrad Of course, who am I to point fingers? I'm in the "Information Technology" business, prima facia evidence that there's bats in the bell tower. -- [link\|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=27764\|Andrew Grygus]
Post #39,916 by orion 5/25/02 5:02:05 PM Reply	What are you saying? I can't imagine you saying anything worse than you've already said, and I can imagine a lot. I suppose in some weird way this is supposed to help me? As I said in the other post, there are more to expenses than just food and rent. My perscription medicine bill can eat up a whole salary of flipping burgers at minimum wage, anything left after that will get eaten up by credit card payments and other bills. Go ahead and attack me on these things, it seems to be the best you can do. I am not sure how all this is supposed to help me? *I am free now, to choose my own destiny.*
Post #39,694 by hnick 5/23/02 3:39:55 PM Reply	Just for curiousity... didn't you guys do the usual richer & poorer, sickness & health routine? If so, which of you doesn't believe it now?
Post #39,803 by orion 5/24/02 10:43:46 AM Reply	Doesn't work in reality We both believe it, but why should we both go homeless or in the poor house? I've been sick so many times that it is hard for anyone to cope with, now I'll be poorer and it is even harder to cope with. I am not sure what to do if I cannot find a job in three months. Being sick and poor sucks. *I am free now, to choose my own destiny.*
Post #39,891 by hnick 5/25/02 8:54:39 AM Reply	Actually, it does The love and support of your mate is really a good and powerful thing to center on when it seems like your life is about to drop in the pot. It is very real. It can't be taken away either. You do have the option of throwing it away, and that is invariably to the detriment of all concerned. As CRC has observed, 3 can live about as cheaply as 2 and living in a cheap apt with your loved ones is a lot finer than living alone anywhere else. Goes for them as well, ya know? Being sick and poor does suck. There are worse hardships, trust me on this one, live long enough and you will gather first hand experience. And this too will pass... It looks like you are developing that whiney tone again.. that will stop you like a brick wall. It is apparent to potential employers and that kind of attitude will cause them to shred you resume right after the interview. Lose the tone and focus... It's about the 'tude dude... get with it.
Post #39,894 by Another Scott 5/25/02 9:56:30 AM Reply	Something to do in the meantime... [link\|http://stlcin.missouri.org/citypers/jobdetail.cfm?PosID=40\|School crossing guard] - $230 every 2 weeks for < 4 hours a day. It would get you outside, in a low stress environment, and give you a little income while you continue to look for a full-time position. For a full time position, look at the following: The MO Department of Corrections is looking for people, including people in IT - [link\|http://www.corrections.state.mo.us/division/hservice/hrm.htm\|here]. The MO Department of Agriculture is looking for someone to do weight inspection - [link\|http://www.mda.state.mo.us/edit/m3.htm\|here]. $969.50 semimonthly. There are many "merit" positions in IT listed [link\|http://www.oa.state.mo.us/pers/joa8009.shtml\|here] - the MO Office of Administration. You might want to consider working on a BS degree. [link\|http://stlcin.missouri.org/citypers/jobdetail.cfm?PosID=228\|Programmer/Analyst I] - $42k - $63.5k. A BS is required. Look into what it would take to get a BS degree. You should be able to get some credit for your associates degree, etc. I was able to find these things in about half an hour of Googling. I'm sure you can do better. "80% of life is just showing up." - Woody Allen. Hang in there. Cheers, Scott.
Post #39,325 by orion 5/20/02 5:55:43 PM Reply	I have limited choices Either I: #1 Get another job quick. #2 Lose house and wife and son. #3 Kill myself because I am worth more dead than alive right now. #4 File for disability and hope that my medical illnesses are enough to qualify. #5 Pray to God for a miricle. #6 Spend what I have on lottery tickets and hope I get lucky. #7 Work three jobs at fast food joints for minimum wage. *I am free now, to choose my own destiny.*
Post #39,348 by ben_tilly 5/20/02 9:47:05 PM Reply	You always have more choices You are convinced that there is nothing you could have done differently, nothing you can do now, and you feel there is nothing you can do. Inthane I can feel for. He is at the beginning of his career, things fcked up, he tried, but even so he sees that he still has choices like get into shape and become a firefighter, or go through bankruptcy proceedings. (And he even prioritizes his choices appropriately - he doesn't want to go bankrupt.) If he carries on like he is going right now, I don't know what he will be doing in 10 years, but he will be OK. I can't feel for you because a long time ago I learned the damned hard way that you cannot do anything for people who are not willing to take responsibility for their own life. I don't see that willingness. Yeah, you made bad choices. You fucked up. That happens. What are you doing about it now? Are you getting into shape? Have you written a program lately? Do you have any possibly employable skills outside of programming you could work on? Or are you hoping for the lottery while you watch wrestling on TV? I have seen people succeed like you wouldn't believe. And every single case I know* will happily tell you that their ability to deal with failure has been critical for their eventual successes. I am telling you that you have positive choices you can make. What they are I don't know since I don't know your situation. But I am morally convinced that they exist if you start creating the opportunities needed to find them. And conversely if you walk around feeling that things are hopeless, opportunities will close up when you get near. Really. However it seems to be more comfortable for you to fail and feel that there is nothing you can do about failing. That is your choice. And now that I have just vented some frustration over Barry wasting his time with you, my choice will be to exit this thread. Because I don't think that you are listening. Regards, Ben "... I couldn't see how anyone could be educated by this self-propagating system in which people pass exams, teach others to pass exams, but nobody knows anything." --Richard Feynman
Post #39,403 by orion 5/21/02 1:42:41 PM Reply	What I have been doing mostly is looking for another job. Other things I have been doing is watching my son, spending time with my wife, helping her clean the house, and working out at the YMCA with the 4 month trial I got there. I have designed the scematics for programs in a paper notebook of mine, I am scetching down ideas. I am trying to get a virtual server set up behind my firewall to show my ASP skills to the outside world, see the Network forum. It hurts me to hear you say I am not taking responsibility, because you don't know me that well and don't know what I have been doing. Everything I have done so far has blown up in my face or hasn't made any results. Sometimes I feel like why should I even bother? But that is the depression talking, and I am still trying to shake it off. Remember that my depression is creating the negative thoughts, I wish I could control it, like there was a button I could press to turn it off, but no such button exists. My health and job situations do not help at all to the depression it just makes it worse. I cannot avoid the negative thoughts any more than a diabetic can create their own insulin or a blind person can see. You may never understand this unless like me you have been clinically depression for a few years or more and cannot get rid of it. A friend of mine had it as bad as me, maybe worse, but he did find a cure, it involved a shotgun and his head. *I am free now, to choose my own destiny.*
Post #39,448 by inthane-chan 5/21/02 8:45:09 PM Reply	The Public Face versus The Private Face. I think I know where some of the problem is - it's in what you choose to reveal here. If you go through and look at your posts, I'm pretty safe in saying that 90% of your posts here about your current situation can be summed up as "My life sucks, I'm losing everything, and I'm going to kill myself." Now, note I said the word POSTS. You may be doing a lot about it, but that's not the face you show here. Since you don't show that face here, it's hard for us to see that part of you, and so we assume you're just whining your head off. InThane - Now running Ashton rev 2.0
Post #39,466 by orion 5/22/02 12:11:32 AM Reply	I am doing what I can to survive #1 Got the YMCA Trial Membership and using it. #2 In Design mode for some programs I am working on. Trying to get a Virtual Server set up to show off my ASP skills. #3 I'm spending more time with the wife and son. #4 Only stress I have is looking for a job. #5 Coping with my depression, which leads to some negative thoughts. But I am trying to overcome them. #6 Unemployment has me barely getting by, runs out in 12 weeks. #7 I'm setting up a small Intranet at home. If I can download it, I'll have a Red Hat 7.3 Server. I have old Pentium 1 systems from systems that I upgraded for other people a long time ago. Enough to slap in a network card. Windows 2000 Server, Windows 98SE, Windows 95 OSR2, OS/2 WARP 3, and soon Linux for a total of 5 machines networked. I got switch box to share four of them on the same monitor, keyboard, and mouse. The major problems are the lack of a job, the depression, and some health issues. *I am free now, to choose my own destiny.*
Post #39,230 by Ashton 5/19/02 7:58:48 PM Reply	Your description seems accurate. But the 'Plan' is fscked. It depicts a 'Mission' of US business, as defined in the stark terms of: sacrificing ALL aspects of [an also US life] upon the altar of a mathematical Econ profit/loss statement. And this: in competition with ALL others in the world (it is imagined). That has also been dubbed, the race to the bottom as doubtless you are aware. Social Darwinism R Us. But accepting this model as not only 'average' but as normal behavior / mission for US business 2002: that any automation which is possible anywhere, is ~ "good for the life of most individuals living in the US" is quite another matter. Corollary: that staff reduction is always a daily aim. I see glaring philosophical, social matters which are completely ignored in every such Mission Statement, whose symptoms range among: 1) Inadequate rest / insufficient sleep hours as are needed to fully function. There's hard data on this epidemic. 2) Road rage and ex-employee shoot-ups, a rising stat, and evident symptom of much that is wrong with the simplistic mission statements which coalesce around pure stats about $$ - yet contain NO slightest comprehension or desire to learn: about what 'we' are doing to each other, via these simplistic missions. The school shootings mirror the 'adult' behavior. There are stats - but nobody here is unaware of the progression. 3) Corporate purchase of 'citizens' representatives - via our antediluvian means of funding Corporate-owned AIRWAVES = our means for communication in a 'democracy' = WHY the campaign costs require selling one's Congress-Self to the highest bidder daily. Short-circuits any reform of Corporate rules or inventing a better model for US life within the techno mindset era. 4) With Corp media ownership of communications comes also: barring of discussion! of "this list" or the ones anyone here could generate as well. Lastly, as this IS a techno- group, I believe there may be less concern? awareness here of, "how it is for" the majority of people who do not grok the many intricate physics and other laws which lie behind all technology. And are unlikely to come up to speed with crash courses (were those even available Along with food). The business (too often today 'bizness') mentality so neatly circumscribed by your accurate depiction: has neither sympathy nor understanding of what it means when: more and more of the population is relegated to unliveable! wages, hideously unaffordable medical attention and.. increasing political reductions in funding of all facets of 'safety nets', general infrastructure repair, subsidizing of affordable housing... etc. If.. 'business' (taken altogether) imagines that - Your Formula can long sustain our illusion of 'prosperity', leaving the increasingly left-out to .. manage as homeless (many are only one paycheck away from that) OR: leave "them" to some idea of government largesse - BUT.. to deal with what may soon be a majority of dwellers in the US? THIS while also 'automating' so as to erase even further possible jobs?? Then I don't think this morass is soluble under present ways of thinking about - especially: the division of wealth in the US, and that trend towards a two-class system. Race to bottom. (Or: just shoot them, if they can't do hard-Core C like Billy, after 4 weeks 'free' training.) As you and others have noted, ideas such as "making your own job obsolete by further automation and staff reduction" IS deemed a Religiously Correct mindset (most-) everywhere in this business model described. IMO we are generally, driving ourselves Nutzo with fantasy-ideas of non-stop accumulation of stuff, at the cost of having no non-biz life - not just in mega-Corporate, but echoed down through the (remaining for a time yet?) mid-size orgs laboring also under This unquestioned Model. How bad does it have to become before The Plan is revisited? - is always my question. Ashton
Post #39,235 by broomberg 5/19/02 10:21:25 PM Reply	And your alternative is? Step out of the rat race? Go live off the land? Demand that the government do everything for us? Yes, I KNOW big business is making the bucks and screwing everyone. I know a few people at the top are raking in 90% of the $$, while the rest scrounge. This is capitalism. Bent, distorted, with many problems. More like a capitalistic oligarchy. But the least evil of all systems that I am aware of. Would you rather my company NOT gain efficiencies, continue at the current cost structure, and go out of business? All to satisfy the "right" way? Should we demand that ALL employees cut their salary in 1/2, to enable us to both win new projects and carry the people who are not contributing? I'd leave in a second, and so would anyone else any good. Which would kill the company just as fast. I KNOW what our cost structure is, I KNOW what our equipment costs, I KNOW what our profit or loss on a given task is. So I know who is carrying their own weight, and who is riding. While the owners may not be hurting that much, they have every right to determine how THEIR capital is invested. Unless you disagree with basic property rights.
Post #39,310 by Ashton 5/20/02 4:22:35 PM Reply	"Unless you disagree with basic property rights" Yes, it comes down to that eventually / somewhere - which is why I believe that no significant change is quite yet thinkable. This because the vast majority of people possess no representation, such as might fight fairly (within an actually functioning system) for a succession of reforms, after actual debate. World is 8+ billions. US hovers ~ 300M. Kings insured hegemony via the same ideas about 'inherited wealth' ... long before a single (non-King) person could acquire the wealth/power to 'hire' the services of (however many $30B say - buys today?). 'We' created! Corporations, remember? We could change the rules - anytime enough NON-Corporate power were to coalesce around that elementary idea. "Many of the rights of a person / few of the liabilities / and 0 responsibility to society overall" -- is what we have allowed to become the de facto case. And the abuses are evident and in many areas; the perhaps most devastating one is of course -- that manifestly they do "hire" our supposed representatives, and successfully block all efforts to reform that crucial stage before reform is possible: A US Congress reperesenting the broad range of US people and not the 3-5% yada yada. No point in suggesting here a reform-slate: it isn't going to even begin until matters in the street have deteriorated even further, schools become literally unmanageable.. and a few other predictable parts of the disintegration process we are seeing daily. "Distribution of wealth" IS everybody's business, however warily one must proceed from that fact. The present form of VERY-circumscribed distribution is the Disneyland thin-veneer of apparent 'prosperity', based upon massive consumption of goods. Most of those goods are more about convenience and amusement than about basic needs, for the rich and for the declining middle-class. The fastest growing class is however, a population who cannot afford actual necessities - even working FULL TIME (and often more than one place to do so). None of these shall ever 'own' a home (more dreams - we Like those). (And without a job, no former middle-class person could afford health insurance - our medicine 'delivery system' can bankrupt Anyone within a few days; certainly within a week.) For there never having been a supported/subsidized effort to massively create affordable housing: these ones shall never have that entree to accumulation of savings - the Govt. tax-subsidized home purchase [that IS 'the middle class']. The rents are guaranteed to remain as high as the medical costs stay, for all obvious reasons. No, I don't believe we're ripe quite yet. Still, depending upon Dubya + Iraq (and some nukes among India/Pakistan/Israel?) -- maybe we shall become ripe sooner than I imagine just now. And no - you can't advise your company to ignore the status-quo any more than Germans could complain to the Ministry of Propaganda about.. Kristallnacht. Katch 23. Ashton [US President, played by Henry Fonda in Failsafe, to the Russian Premier -- as he is about to destroy NY because, we're killing Moscow] says ~ We BUILT this sytem of mistrust between our two countries - and we can unbuild it.. we MUST !!! [/NY] I feel the same way about the TRADITIONAL, inculcated hegemony of the 3-5%, and the brainwashing of our children (just as we did re acceptance the King's rule of yore) into the belief that this IS the best we can do as homo-saps. Wave that flag! It fucking-well IS NOT. We HAVE the "Authority" - in our Constitution, but even that is not written in stone - it is alive, and we are supposed to be. But collectively we evidently lack the purpose and the will: most of 'us' would rather PLAY, be passively infotained and always: entertained, at least 16/7.
Post #39,328 by broomberg 5/20/02 6:33:00 PM Reply	Godwin
Post #39,335 by Ashton 5/20/02 7:07:05 PM Reply	Re: Godwin: just history (German !=Nazi, one hoped)
Post #39,437 by CRConrad 5/21/02 6:31:22 PM Reply	Is it my imagination, or is that really... Barry: Unless you disagree with basic property rights. ...the only "rights" you people think are really important? Coz, so help me the Great Rotating Rod, that sure seems to be the only one you[] ever employ in this fashion: As a rhetorical device intended to trump further discussion. It goes like, "Political rights, yadda yadda... Voting, yadda yadda... Balancing one thing against the other, yadda yadda yadda... But, oh, this-or-that would interfere with property* rights! Well, then it goes without saying that this-or-that, whatever it was, is right out of the question!" The impression one gets, is one of "So much for 'Liberty' and all that guff -- turns out it was just the 'liberty' to make a fast buck off of your fellow man that mattered in the end". Are you quite, quite, sure, all of you, that that was all your oh-so-revered[*] "Founding Fathers" had in mind, when they began that little experiment you call the United States? Just wondering... []: "You" meaning 'Americans in general', not just Barry. []: At least in political speeches -- when their ideas don't too obviously interfere directly with turning a fast buck. Christian R. Conrad** Of course, who am I to point fingers? I'm in the "Information Technology" business, prima facia evidence that there's bats in the bell tower. -- [link\|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=27764\|Andrew Grygus]
Post #39,441 by broomberg 5/21/02 6:49:25 PM Reply	I dunno about founding fathers After all, they were quite happy to own slaves and consider it good behaviour. My issue is when someone comes over with a gun to my head and tells me that I must run a business in such a way that is guaranteed to fail. According to some here, I am offering VERY good wages (based on the amount of housing it can buy in the local area) for specific skill sets. It does my company NO GOOD to pay this money to people who can't do the job. It also does my company NO GOOD to pay less money to more people WHO CAN'T DO THE JOB. So, what would you have me do? Note: This is a jobs forum. I gave specific advice on how to approach employment, in a way that has worked for my and might work for others. It has now degraded into a social and political flamefest, which I try to stay away from. So don't bother answering the above question unless it relates to specific job advice, becuase I sure won't.
Post #39,501 by boxley 5/22/02 10:56:43 AM Reply	Barry's assessment of how to work in this biz is correct I have always worked myself out of a job by making IT faster, cheaper and easier for the firm to do the work, whatever it is. I take pride in that even years later people/businesses will call me for advise on how to address a new task they are having problems with. I enjoy what I do and take it as a challenge, this is a hobby of mine that seems to pay rather well. thanx, bill TAM ARIS QUAM ARMIPOTENS
Post #39,544 by mmoffitt 5/22/02 5:55:41 PM Reply	It's not just us. In the US, I mean. Look at the Russians, East Europeans, Czechs, etc. We (in the US) like to wax eloquently on and on about "the triumph of democracy over totalitarianism", about "winning the Cold War". But the ideals expressed in the notion of democracy had nothing to do with it. It was not "the triumph of democracy" that caused the Soviet Union to fail, it was the promise of a "triumph of consumerism". They (well, okay, most of them) did not want liberty, they wanted Levi's.
Post #39,551 by Arkadiy 5/22/02 7:38:07 PM Reply	So much bull, so little time. Democracy may be harmed by private property, but it cannot exist without private property. All police states begin with nationalization of property. WRT East Europe, you are putting the cart before the horse. Why do you think those countries were so poor? Because of lack of respect for private property, which caused lack of freedom. So the people there weren't after "Levi's", they were after a right to sew levi's and to keep their wages, and maybe one day to open a clothes shop. Eating well and wearing nicer stuff was simply a nice bonus.
Post #39,711 by mmoffitt 5/23/02 5:05:31 PM Reply	Shto? >> Why do you think those countries were so poor? Because of lack of respect >> for private property, which caused lack of freedom. So, you cannot be "free" without personal wealth? That is our (US) unstated view, but I do not hold it to be true. Your argument is valid only if "consumption" is necessary for "freedom". I don't think that is a valid premise. There are counter-examples to this supposition.
Post #39,845 by Arkadiy 5/24/02 3:05:13 PM Reply	You cannot be free without private property. I do not know about "personal wealth", but private property is indeed a foundation of freedom. I do not know about "consumption", but hungry people rarely can stay free. In any case, you are confusing cause and effect here, again. Freedom to hold private property causes personal wealth (with all its excesses). Same freedom causes material abundance, that leads to material (over?-)consumption. But private property, or freedom, do not _need_ overconsumption or excesses to exist. (btw, "shto" would be a slightly "vulgar", "hurried" pronunciation. Proper pronunciation for this word is "chto" :-) )
Post #40,219 by mmoffitt 5/28/02 5:13:31 PM Reply	How about "kak?"
Post #40,256 by a6l6e6x 5/28/02 11:26:56 PM Reply	"kak" is "how" while "chto" is "what". Alex "Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened." -- Winston Churchill (1874-1965)
Post #40,261 by mmoffitt 5/28/02 11:35:23 PM Reply	I know. I was kidding. I don't know the English spellings of Russian words (and my Russian is not what it once was). Like, I can say, "Meenya zavoot Meesha" [My name is Mike] and I can spell it in Russian, but I don't know the "offical" phonetic spellings in English. I think Arkadiy and I have traded posts in the past about my having spent a large part of Grade 4 (Klass Chitiri) in Kiev. Thanks for the clarification though. And, do you know how I can post in Cyrillic font here? Besides, Breshnev always said, "SHHHTO?" :-)
Post #40,265 by a6l6e6x 5/28/02 11:57:45 PM Reply	I tried a cut and paste of Russian from pravda.ru ... but it does not survive the "Preview" in the Subject but can be seen OK (below) in this comment area on my machine. I do have Ukrainian [uk] in addition to English [en] in Preferences \| Navigator \| Languages set up in Mozolla. Below is "Chto hovoryat?": Что говорят? Alex "Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened." -- Winston Churchill (1874-1965)
Post #40,272 by Ashton 5/29/02 12:50:34 AM Reply	Hmm.. Cyrillic in Moz? Recall vaguely the travails of setting up a friend's machine (in Win 3.1x then), finding fonts all over Europe - so she could read Cyrilic text from Russia (plus prelim Eng. translation), receive ditto in both English and orig. Russian (occasionally Ukrainian?) for cleaning up the syntax in scientific papers. Fonts were for Word6 (which was essential to swap with Russ and also invoke the subtle editing modes available in colors) But the results were .zipped and sent as attachments, then. Now I've forgotten the details.. Noted the option in Moz to switch to Cyrillic - which raises issue of which kb encoding. When I tried to post a Cyrillic character via above switch.. this box got redrawn with smaller characters, but these were in Engrish unchanged. Did you just switch to View\|Character Coding\|Cyrillic (Windows 1251) -- and paste in some Russ text from Pravda? Wondering now, if there's a simple alternative to the sequences we needed back then (using DOS, Unix storage and the PINE e-mail system! to transmit back mostly English editing) ie in Moz - can we type-in Cyrillic via whatever kb map, see it displayed and.. send ? Guess I need to read about "language packs" at Moz for this. Ashton
Post #40,305 by Arkadiy 5/29/02 10:53:44 AM Reply	Brezhnev... would indeed say "shto". Just like Bush keeps saying "nucular". :)
Post #39,847 by Arkadiy 5/24/02 3:15:18 PM Reply	This is just sooo rich! A [link\|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=39733\|businessman] who does not believe in private property!
Post #40,220 by mmoffitt 5/28/02 5:16:04 PM Reply	Nyet. If I implied that I "don't believe in private property" I misspoke. I merely contend that "right to private property" != "freedom".
Post #40,304 by Arkadiy 5/29/02 10:49:36 AM Reply	Agreed. => is not the same as <=> (foreach country \| HasPrivateProperty(country) <=> HasFreedom(country)) is false. (foreach country \| HasPrivateProperty(country) => HasFreedom(country)) is true. (in this world's interpretation :) ) Note that the truth table for => is 0 1 --------- 1 \| 1 1 0 \| 1 0 so it's possible to have private property and no freedom. But you cannot have freedom without private property. Would you agree with that?
Post #40,513 by mmoffitt 5/30/02 10:13:14 AM Reply	No, I wouldn't. Which I guess makes me a communist ;-) A small true story will illustrate my point, I think. When I was in Soviet Russia, the US guides on the exhibit (of which my father was one) had a party in our hotel suite. There were perhaps 20 people there, one of which was a Russian girl that one of the single guides had asked to accompany him to the party. I remember her apologizing to my father for being absent during the party (she had come into the room occupied by my brother and me to sit quietly at a table and read a contraband book - don't remember which one it was perhaps "Nicholas and Alexandria"). At any rate, she had to forward the book to her contact the next morning or risk falling off the "illegal book trading train". Everyone understood, of course, and left her alone to finish her book. The freedom to read anything and everything does not require private property. The freedom to say anything and everything does not require private property. The freedom to believe anything and everything does not require private property. The freedom to think and express any idea does not require private property. The freedom to expand one's education to the fullest extent does not require private property. These are but some of the greatest freedoms that a people can know, imo.
Post #40,521 by Arkadiy 5/30/02 11:00:13 AM Reply	The freedom to read requires the freedom to own the book I think your story is a proof of my point. The girl 'had to forward the book to her contact the next morning or risk falling off the "illegal book trading train"'. If this is not a violation of private property, what is? I wonder if she managed to finsh the book... Also, check out R. Stallman's essay about the brave new world where ownership of books is illegal. How would you like to live there? As to freedom of speach... You may be right. But, it's a bit hard to say a lot when you can't legally own a copier, a printer or a computer. Freedom of belief... Did you mean freedom of worship? How do you worship when a church is not recognised as a legal unit, therefore cannot own a place of worship? How about a prohibition to use you private house for anything but family gathering? It's your private house, right? Think again. I'll grant you this: a _person_ can be free w/o owning anything. A person can be free under any government. A state that does not recognize private property cannot be called a "free state" ( I define "free state" as such a state that does not require a free person to hide the fact that they have freedom).
Post #40,541 by mmoffitt 5/30/02 12:47:50 PM Reply	Do you "own" library books? WRT my story, some one did have to buy the book and pass it around because of the absence of freedom. Far from supporting your argument, my story illustrates an instance of private ownership becoming a necessity because of a lack of freedom. And a state that does not recognize private property could be the state that provides its citizens with more freedom than any society has yet enjoyed. Of course here I'm speaking theoretically as no such system has ever been attempted, let alone achieved. And I'm willing to grant you that it may not be possible to create such a state given the overwhelming limitations of our species at this point in our evolution.
Post #40,557 by boxley 5/30/02 2:16:59 PM Reply	cuba does not recognise personal property in housing, automobiles etc. Doesnt appear to be a rush of freedom lovers lined up trying to get in. Albania was another where there was no private property. They are all moving to serbia. thanx, bill TAM ARIS QUAM ARMIPOTENS
Post #40,596 by mmoffitt 5/30/02 4:49:49 PM Reply	Clarification. I'm not saying that you can only be free if there is no private property. All I am saying is that it is not necessarily the case that one must possess private property in order to be free, nor is it the case that private property rights must exist or a society cannot be free (which is essentially Arkediy's position). Private property rights and "freedom" are not mutually exclusive, nor are the necessarily intertwined. And all too often private property rights are considered by a populace that possesses them to be more important than [other] liberties. One need look no farther than the US to see that this is the case.
Post #40,604 by CRConrad 5/30/02 5:46:13 PM Reply	Bullshit, I think. (Goes for the Soviet Union too, BTW.) Cuba is known, in car enthusiast circles, for its rich supply if Battista-vintage American cars; collectors, custom-builders, and just ordinary people -- some who got hooked on some particular model when they were kids, for example -- go there to buy a well-preserved (or "fixer-upper") rarity on the cheap. Whom do you think they buy them from? In all the car-magazine articles on the theme I've seen, it's always something like "I bought it off an old guy who had been driving it as a taxi in Havanna for thirty years, and was retiring" -- ergo, a private citizen. (Oh, and that 'BTW' in my subject line: Hey, Arkadij, betcha you (or your mother, if you will) owned the clothes you wore as a kid, right?) Christian R. Conrad Of course, who am I to point fingers? I'm in the "Information Technology" business, prima facia evidence that there's bats in the bell tower. -- [link\|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=27764\|Andrew Grygus]
Post #40,617 by Arkadiy 5/30/02 7:05:46 PM 5/30/02 7:06:14 PM Reply	Individual belongings versus private property. Yes, I owned my clothes. No one else wanted them. Even socialism recognises that people needed to own _something_ . But, say you have a clothing drive for suffering Vietnamese children. Try not to bring some of your stuff. Ass-chewing at a Komsomol meeting is guaranteed. And if do not say that you "forgot", if you say "I need clothes for myself"... KGB will open a case. Another thing about clothes: school uniform. You get a coupon for one set for whole year. Want to buy more? Tough. Want to wear something different to school? Much, much worse. My whole childhood I was wearing patched up pants - they were worn right through in a few months. Hardly a private property :) By the time of Brezhnev, people were even allowed to buy cars. But, try to use yours as a taxi - you're dead meat (unless of course, you pay some bakshish in time). Selling of used cars is allowed only at state-owned places, using state as the middleman, at state-set prices. Of course, people talk to each other and some money is exchanged under the table. The "dealership" employees simply look the other way. You're confusing what's happening with what's supposed to happen. People under socialism can have some individual stuf. And much more is allowed through corruption. Still more is allowed because the system realises it can't survive on its own principles. But the principles stay the same: you don't have anything that can't be sacrificed for the Radiant Future. Edited by Arkadiy May 30, 2002, 07:06:14 PM EDT Expand All History
Post #40,575 by Arkadiy 5/30/02 2:59:53 PM 5/30/02 3:01:36 PM Reply	No. Library does. The books in the library are still someone's property, even if that someone is a city or a church. If I decide to start a library tomorrow, can you tell me what books to buy with my own money? As for your "could be" argument... Looks like we both agree that humans like they existed in history and exist now are not capable of of such "could be". I think it's indeed called "communism", and it failed everywhere it was attempted. Moreover, its failure produced human suffering and death beyond anything else humanity experienced before. (Some say it has never been attempted properly. May be. I don't care.) Edited by Arkadiy May 30, 2002, 03:01:36 PM EDT Expand All History
Post #40,595 by mmoffitt 5/30/02 4:45:49 PM Reply	Ah, but who owns the library? The People do ;-) Soviet Russia was a fascist state. Even it at least had the decency not to call itself a communist state (CCCP - Union of Soviet Socialist Republics). Its more than a semantics game. Nazi Germany was "Socialist" as well. Don't blame the communists, blame the socialists. :-)
Post #40,637 by Ashton 5/30/02 9:15:06 PM Reply	Guess I don't see any real argument here. Given that USSR was nothing to do with (anyone's) concept of: a future.. not ever even approached, "communism". USSR isn't then about communism. Ditto re property; maybe the most realistic aim for dealing with that concept (could be): an acquired dislike for the ugliness produced everywhere, when a person's status/power in a society is measured by # of things acquired. This attitude might lead to a large de-emphasis on (at least) "buying stuff as recreation". (Surely that direction would eschew "buying stuff as the Meaning of Life\ufffd and possibly - after-life too? that Great Mall in the Sky with Free Credit and Approved Sex-substitutes) Given "how we're doing" - I'd think the above is a realizable goal, hardly an assured one. As to further than that, the gradual dying of the Need to Own Stuff (generally), I'd think it obvious that such an idea would be completely inaccessible of understanding.. except in some future adult society. If the species survives adolescence, that is. Ashton
Post #40,542 by mmoffitt 5/30/02 12:52:14 PM Reply	And she did finish that book (I saw her) ;-)
Post #40,224 by orion 5/28/02 5:45:28 PM Reply	Property rights chances are if you paid taxes on it, you must own it. Pay property taxes then sit on lawn with a shotgun and yell "Git off'n my land!" at anyone who isn't a friend or relative or making a delivery like a postal carrier or UPS, etc. *I am free now, to choose my own destiny.*
Post #39,238 by tonytib 5/19/02 11:23:36 PM Reply	Right on; most software isn't shrink wrapped For example, my job -- the software is the just the control part of a complete package that we build to solve a customer's problem. Software is a very broad world; there is the need for software skills (programming, analysis, DBA, etc) in all kinds of companies, despite outsourcing trends. So start looking, and be flexible. Oh, and yes, connections are very helpful -- it's definitely very common here in Silicon Valley (guy moves to new company, and when they need to hire, recommends his friends). I've been impressed with the interns we've had, too. Tony
Post #39,246 by inthane-chan 5/20/02 3:33:26 AM Reply	You misunderstand my situation. Yeah, it's 12:30 am. I'm wracked with insomnia lately. Believe me, I'm quite aware of the 95%/5% ratio. I'm not just focusing on the Microsofts - I'm applying anywhere that will have me. What I'm seeing is either a) they're offering $10-12/hour or b) they want 12+ years of experience in Java development. (Okay, not that - but you get the idea.) Warning: The following may contain some whining. It may also contain some valid questions. It most definitely WILL contain some personal information. Here's my situation before I got laid off in January: I was making $3250/month before taxes, with no benefits that I didn't pay for myself. $19.50/hour, 40 hours a week, 50 weeks a year (in theory). My wife makes ~$2500/month. She's got a Masters in Psychology. That racked up some serious student loans, which are pretty nasty. Basically, her salary covers rent and her student loans. My salary went to trying to pay down some extra debt we incurred when both of us had major car trouble a couple years back, and covering her new car, since her old one had pretty much died. We had almost no savings. Not having a car is Not An Option - unless you consider 3+ hour bus rides each way to and from work an option. I'm not asking for a job that brings in $50-75k per annum - I'm looking for a reasonable, entry level job. Something that my wife and I can actually a) pay the bills and b) get a little bit ahead in, and maybe even c) start a family someday. Now to venture into some Washington state esoterica: 1) If you want to have kids, you MUST have them supervised at all times, or else they will be taken away by the state. 2) Each gender of child must have it's own bedroom - if you have all boys or all girls, you can get by on a 2br apartment, but if you have a boy and a girl, you must have a 3br apartment. 3) Most people don't get much examination on this front, but since my wife is a registered mental health therapist who works with children, she's under much closer scrutiny than most people, except for possibly crack mothers and opponents of the current political regime. 4) If you want to live anywhere near Seattle, AND get an apartment that would allow the "having of children", you are looking at $1,500 - $2,000 a month in rent. 5) Why is living near Seattle important? Well, that's where pretty much ALL the computer jobs are. I think I've sent about 12 resumes to Tacoma (30 miles south of the edge of Seattle), and I haven't even SEEN one in Everett (50 miles north) for something like four months now. 6) If we're going to move, we have no savings to do it on - and so if we're going to move, I need to make significantly more than I was making here so that we can save SOME money for moving expenses. 7) Cars are a Must Have in Seattle - the transit system to the suburbs sucks. Once you get to a hub, it's okay - but it's either a 15 minute drive from my apartment to the nearest hub, or a 1.5 hour bus ride. :P 8) The computer jobs I'm seeing right now pay ~$10-12/hour. There are jobs out there I qualify for that pay more, but nobody's responding to my resumes, (I've had three interviews) and I'm making about the same on unemployment, so it's almost not even worth my time. Besides, if I took a job like that, we'd be back where we started - up to our eyeballs in debt, with no way of climbing out of it. Now, I'm not begging for a free ride - I do agree with broomberg's assessment of business attitudes towards employment - but I'm trying to honestly assess if I should continue to hold out, or work towards changing my career. There is literally diddly/shit out there for work in my market, and it's screwing the prices all to hell. It doesn't help that we're massively in debt due to some Serious bad luck - and I'd like to buy a house in this lifetime, so I'm trying VERY hard to avoid bankruptcy. Folks, I'm not whining about not pulling in $50-75k a year - I'm whining about not being able to break $25,000 a year WITH A FSCKING BACHELOR'S DEGREE. Hell, my WIFE barely breaks $25k with a MASTERS. Admittedly, she's in public service, which is why she's getting shafted, but HOW THE FSCK do they expect people to a) Pay exorbitant rent, b) save a little towards retirement, c) afford kids, and d) get to and from work? And then I look at the firefighters - and they offer $50k/year plus excellent benefits, AT THE START. All I gotta do is buff up. THAT is why I'm asking the questions I'm asking. Not because I'm a whiny computer nerd who thinks he deserves a handout, but because I'm trying to figure out a way to pull myself up in this darwinistic heap. Oh, and as far as sales goes? I'd do it if it was the last job availible to me, but I have a lower respect for sales jobs than practically any other work on the planet. Basically, it's some goober inserting himself between the producer and the consumer, and skimming his living off the top of it, without adding much real value. Yeah, I know there's more to it than that, but to me, it's not an honest living. InThane - Now running Ashton rev 2.0
Post #39,289 by tseliot 5/20/02 1:21:48 PM Reply	Go be a firefighter then, when they say, "hmmm we need a new system..." say, "I can write that." Gravy. --------------------------------- Many fears are born of stupidity and ignorance - Which you should be feeding with rumour and generalisation. BOfH, 2002 "Episode" 10
Post #39,295 by rsf 5/20/02 2:04:19 PM Reply	What do you know... ...besides software? How do you make yourself stand out from all of the other code monkeys? There are jobs out there but you have to know where to look and know how to get your resume to the top of the pile. Try to leverage the non-CS part of your education/work experience into landing a job with a company that doesn't specialize in software as its only product but rather uses software as part of the business in producing a product or running the company. For example, my company, a biotech in Silicon Valley, has multiple openings in software development/QA for internal projects but even with the ton of resumes we are getting, the pickings are slim. We need programmers and testers that have some biology background - a very rare combination. A couple upper division courses in biology or biochemistry is usually enough to get your foot in the door. Ray
Post #39,300 by tonytib 5/20/02 3:04:54 PM Reply	It's also who you know If someone at the company already knows you, it really helps you (lowers the "sales resistance" to hiring you since you're a known quantity, not just a resume). I suspect that many of the most interesting software development jobs in Silicon Valley never make it onto the public "programmers" job sites. Unfortunately, we're not hiring, so I can't be a connection. And, yes, domain knowledge is critical. For example, if you're not interested in learning about mechatronics, you wouldn't be a good fit at my company (heck, I enjoy my time with the wrenches, even if it scares some co-workers!). I'd rather hire a ME interested in automation and teach them programming than hire a CS major who is only interested in latest programming fads. Tony
Post #39,303 by inthane-chan 5/20/02 3:26:03 PM Reply	Well, now, that's the rub, ain't it? The main problem is exactly as you describe it - I've been focusing so hard on Comp. Sci. in my studies that I don't have any "official" secondary skills. Yeah, I should have spread out a bit... :P As far as friends on the inside - my acquaintences have been casting around (Hey Brandioch, got any openings?) but not much luck there. In fact, most of the people I know are so busy holding on to their own jobs they're afraid to even suggest other people for employment... InThane - Now running Ashton rev 2.0
Post #39,307 by rsf 5/20/02 3:46:31 PM Reply	Can you stay in school for another year? Take some classes to round out your skills, do an honors project to make your resume stand out, ride out the recession... BTW, is your resume online? Ray
Post #39,315 by inthane-chan 5/20/02 5:03:50 PM Reply	Unfortunately, no. Student loans are racking up to the point where I can't really keep on going - and worse yet, the only "alternative" program at the school I could get into would be MBA. I'd rather be a firefighter. InThane - Now running Ashton rev 2.0
Post #39,314 by tonytib 5/20/02 4:49:52 PM Reply	Well, I'll keep a look out but will make no promises. The local economy (Silicon Valley) is looking up a bit (semiconductor is finally turning the corner), although major portions (e.g. fiber optics) are still totally depressed. Tony
Post #39,316 by Ashton 5/20/02 5:05:19 PM Reply	Only a few angles to offer.. It appears that we share a similar POV re the entire massive topic you sum-up as 'sales' (?) (Hitler referred derogatorily to the Brits as, a nation of shopkeepers .. Unfortunately for him, he failed to recognize that, "running your own little shop" necessitates the accumulation of lore in a wide range of skills, planning, etc. Of course he missed quite a few other things as well.) So I differentiate between er sales-droid, a 'person' (but hired as if an interchangeable commodity) to spin / hawk warez of whatever utility or none and, the simple fact that: Whatever you 'do' - you are selling Something; your skills, reputation about those skills, etc. My impression after now many years at IWE and elsewhere [but never in Your field] is that: Most IT folk now - certainly at entry-level - and increasingly further up the ladder - are indeed being treated like a majority of Other People out there, by the Suited-Ones - indirectly thus, by the Suited-Ones' selected deputies: as COMMODITIES. Period. Proof? What's that acronym again, for hiring cheap Overseas slave-labor (and they are slaves = unable to bargain for better conditions, move to another company, etc). No Rights = exactly as for anyone on what's left (and dwindling fast) of 'welfare' - get a Social-sociopath droid handling your case and you have No Rights. Ah yes, the Econ folk shall cite 'The Market' and 'Supply and Demand' and property rights and other Interesting aspects; still - HR___ is the perfect example that, IT has joined the other trades as commodity fodder, officially. Whether you want to or not - you are involved in WTO, Nafta and the other rubrics via which we are moving at speed towards a Two-Class very Unstable, increasingly Angry culture (we're already there, actually IMhO). As others have advanced - If one has a very-great capability in a difficult part of the ladder, it hasn't gotten unbearable in Corporate bizness. Yet. You are honest enough to assess where your best talents are, and thus estimate prospects today. (I'd say that that nitty-gritty personal Honest assessment ought not ever to appear here, if ya catch my drift.) No one should go on record beyond a certain degree, in a culture where so much daily lying is a necessity of employment, and where one's entrance to a job - is via something called HR, with all the science as is to be found, in sociology.. behind that selection). Your degree probably still carries the universal weight: hey, the guy was able to eat a lot of shit, produce on time and - finish. It ought to be as useful beyond IT. Luck seems to determine if.. you stumble onto an unusual request in quite another field, and you and they conclude that you can get up to speed, 'cause ya know how to think. Remember how rare that ability is becoming? I will light a candle.. that you don't have to choose between a pure sales-droid job and eating. And you're too smart to dump the remaining benefits for an equally unprofitable alternative - till they run out. Cheers, Ashton
Post #39,326 by tuberculosis 5/20/02 6:09:57 PM 8/21/07 6:41:36 AM Reply	Looks 'tits up' to me. Hey Broomie, I'm not sure where you are located, but those salaries look pretty low to me for really qualified professionals. Or are you just looking for fry cooks? Of course, you'd have to compare the average cost of a house and get the cost of living/wage ratio to be sure. Does $50k translate into $100k in BABs (Bay Area Bucks)? Anyhow, Thane, I exited university in 1989 with a BS in Petroleum Engineering. So while I have training and certifications saying I know how to bore holes several thousand feet into mother earth and suck out her juices, the collapse of OPEC in the late 80's guaranteed my total unemployability. I did things like work the desk at a truck rental company, stuck labels on floppy diskettes, branded cattle, did word processing, etc. I was sure the oil business was dead. The oil business came back eventually, but never like it was and by then I had moved on to a career developing software. My advice to you is just finish whatever degree you are working on, then get out and network yourself a job. You never know what kind of work you're going to take to or how your career is going to move. Don't worry too much about it. You'll eventually fall into something you like. But you gotta have a degree (in anything). As for the business of developing software - its pushing up the daisies. Throughout the 90's the Denver Post had 2-4 pages of large ads for software developers and about the same number of little want ads. Last week I was in Denver and there were about 1.25 columns of obliquely computer related jobs. Vendor or enterprise, the market is glutted with a huge number of java-loving no-talent ass clowns confusing the recruiters and disappointing the hiring managers and shareholders to no end. Its going to take awhile for the chaff to settle out and go join the peace corps. Meanwhile, I spend whole days trying to get a department of developers to figure out how to remove a key from a Map. Whatever. Hell, I have MIT grads who what to know what "that patterns book" is about. Good people are in short supply, but nimrods are ubiquitous. Good luck. Don't get too down and do take any piece of work you can get regardless of how far beneath you it may appear to be at the time. Often the most amazing set of circumstances can lead you to a real plum job, but you gotta get into the game to become exposed to the circumstances. The average hunter gatherer works 20 hours a week. The average farmer works 40 hours a week. The average programmer works 60 hours a week. What the hell are we thinking? Edited by tuberculosis Aug. 21, 2007, 06:41:36 AM EDT Expand All History
Post #39,331 by broomberg 5/20/02 6:48:27 PM Reply	I dunno, you tell me My house is a 4 bedroom center hall colonial in a good suburban neighborhood with good schools. It is about $180K, and the pricing is the norm for this type of house. How does that compare? I'm not in the sticks, though, so I am close to pretty much everything. I live about 15 minutes from center city Philadelphia, and am close to the local train if I wanted to work in center city without driving.
Post #39,336 by inthane-chan 5/20/02 7:12:49 PM Reply	HOLY ***! $180k for a 4 bedroom colonial? NEAR some kind of commuter center? In Seattle, that would probably go for $4-500k. Easy. InThane - Now running Ashton rev 2.0*
Post #39,341 by broomberg 5/20/02 8:42:11 PM Reply	That's what I thought So you can see I feel mildly insulted when Todd tells me I'm offering fry cook wages. Near a commuter central? Hell, I could WALK to the high speed line in about 35 minutes. Bike in under 10. And parking is 25 cents if I drive.
Post #39,343 by tuberculosis 5/20/02 8:52:05 PM 8/21/07 6:42:00 AM Reply	Not too shabby Compare to Sausalito - Average home price around $600k and homes are on the small shack side - probably a 2 bedroom 1300 sq ft affair. I beat the system by living off land. So you're paying around 1/3 the cost of a home per year, same job should be $200k here. More likely, the developers can be got for slightly over $100k which means we are getting hosed in this part of the world. Still, the scenery is a little better here. I just like to point out that numbers in a vacuum are just that - numbers. I think wages should be advertised in housing units. Its telling that only 3 percent of people living in the bay area can afford to buy a home. Actually, its criminal. Kill the landlord, kill the landlord. (Eddie Murphy) The average hunter gatherer works 20 hours a week. The average farmer works 40 hours a week. The average programmer works 60 hours a week. What the hell are we thinking? Edited by tuberculosis Aug. 21, 2007, 06:42:00 AM EDT Expand All History
Post #39,350 by broomberg 5/20/02 9:58:53 PM Reply	Based on your description My house would cost about a million dollars. 4 bedrooms w/ 2 bedrooms rather large, big enough for king size bed and comfortable spacing around. walk in cedar closet. laundry room 2 1/2 bath den eat in kitchen formal dining room and living room basement 2 car garage It is about a 45 minute drive to the Jersey shore. Crappy waves, though. 1.5 hour drive to the Poconos. Now are there any qualified takers for the jobs I mentioned?
Post #39,351 by folkert 5/20/02 10:12:07 PM Reply	Based on your.... description of the place to work... I'd do it in a heartbeat... but... I am in a slow area myself picking up the slack other can't do. In the last month, I have cleared just under $25K after material and service costs, but before taxes and such, in side jobs... I have finally gotten my reputation where I want it... and could actually lose my job and survive very well. `greg, curley95@attbi.com -- REMEMBER ED CURRY!!!`
Post #39,386 by admin 5/21/02 11:38:09 AM 5/21/02 11:59:54 AM Reply	Same here, pretty much. 25 miles north of Detroit, we bought a 4-br colonial on a hyarge corner lot (bleah, I have to mow it) for $155K 6 years ago. Current asking is probably around $250K or so, but we've completely gutted and replaced two rooms, one of which was the kitchen. Great neighborhood, good schools (I think, we're homeschooling for other reasons). About 10 minutes from work, 20 minutes to anything else we would need tops. Suburb, but countryish. Cider mills, a few miles from farms, etc. 45 minutes to the Detroit Symphony or Art Museum. Edit: Forgot to add, even when unemployment was around 20% around here last year, I was looking at jobs in the $100K+ range. Found one at $135K, took a different one for less to be a LOT closer to home (1 hour vs. 10 minutes). Caveat: I am highly skilled and talented. "Normal" computer jobs around here hit between $50K and $80K. Entry level is probably $30-35K, but I haven't looked at that recently for obvious reasons. If you are willing to drive a half hour or more, you can live where the houses are fairly inexpensive, moreso even than mine. 2BR aparments are around $700/mo, 3BR probably about $900/mo. That's a luxury garden apartment, about 800-1000 sq ft. Downsides here: almost all of the jobs are dependent upon the auto industry in some fashion; that's how I got laid off last year. My current job very carefully is not so dependent. ;-) Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..." Edited by admin May 21, 2002, 11:59:54 AM EDT Expand All History

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