They can't use the data without a national-security reason.

Post #379,074 by Another Scott 8/10/13 3:31:15 PM Reply	They can't use the data without a national-security reason. (With some exceptions.) Reread the PDF in http://forum.iwethey...iwt?postid=379028 HTH. Cheers, Scott.
Post #379,076 by crazy 8/10/13 3:51:27 PM 8/10/13 3:53:31 PM Reply	Puhleeze I was about to give an example of exactly where you are wrong, but I couldn't. So the bottom line is that people like you will keep believing, while people like me with knowledge won't say anything because it is too scary. So here, have a link to the publicly available stuff and STFU. Don't bother telling me anything about limited manpower, people spend their entire lives doing nothing but reviewing the popups and passing it along. http://www.wctrib.co...en-intel-evidence Edited by crazy Aug. 10, 2013, 03:53:31 PM EDT Expand All History
Post #379,077 by Another Scott 8/10/13 4:05:00 PM Reply	How has your on-life changed since 10/26/2001? I'm sure that you've been Outraged, Outraged since October 26, 2001 when the USA PATRIOT Act was signed by W. You know, the law that made PRISM and all the other "revelations" by Snowden and Greenwald legal. The law that enabled the NSA to "spy" on everyone in the USA. I'm sure based on that recognition of what the NSA is authorized to do, you were in fear of the NSA dragging you off to prison unless you changed your on-line behavior. Right? :-p You and Box haven't addressed my point about the NSA being too small to do what Snowden and Greenwald have claimed. I say they're too small to spy on everyone in the USA. Present some evidence that I'm wrong, please. Having a database of metadata (as part of a $20M/yr program) that can only be searched for specific national-security reasons (with some exceptions) is not "spying on all Americans" (or however Greenwald has phrased it). If we can't agree on that, we're talking past each other. I think I'm done on this topic. Feel free to have the last word. Cheers, Scott.
Post #379,079 by crazy 8/10/13 4:36:21 PM Reply	Here's the numbers. Feel free to make up your own. 314,000,000 people in the us 75.00% use text messaging (bullshit, this is high, but I had to accept a number to start) 110 HIGH number for heavy users, messages per day 25,905,000,000 26 BILLION per day Assume the magic software doing keyword matches pulls a SMALL (but critical) percentage Maybe on a small portion of malcontents are texting stuff around. And not even all those trigger the keyword. But they will sooner or later. 5.00% So, 5% of the population are undesirables. 15,700,000 Let's say they ALL text, HEAVILY 1,727,000,000 1.7 billion messages. 1.00% But now the software winnows that down QUICKLY and drops it to 1 percent of their messages. 17,270,000 17 MM, still a large chunk 6 texts a minute to glance and say OK or redflag. 6 working hours in a tedious low paying 8 hour day 2,160 Messages a day a single person can review 7,995 Number of analysts required to doublecheck 17MM text messages a year. Easy. I could whip up a subcontracting organization in a month to fulfill that contract. And when we move on to email, I'll charge a bit more to review them, but the software will highlight the keywords in context, and it won't be more than a minute before the "analyst" hits the red or green button and moves to the next message.
Post #379,081 by Another Scott 8/10/13 5:39:39 PM Reply	Then what? (Yeah, I lied. I'm commenting on this thread again...) OMG! Gen. Alexander's supercomputers could read my text messages!!!!11 Why would they want to do that? How would Stan Smith (of "American Dad!") working at Ft. Meade report to his boss when it comes time for his annual review that he's investigating text messages from Americans? When that is an illegal act? The people who work for the NSA or any other government agency are hired to do a specific job. They are evaluated annually on how well they do their job. They don't just sit around or do anything they want without any consequences.... As Snowden (!) and Martin at Balloon-Juice have said, the only thing that prevents abuse of any technology is Policy. If you don't trust Obummer and Alexander and the NSA to follow the published policy, then you're giving up. No law is sufficient. Outlawing the technology won't work because they can lie about using it. Going down that rabbit-hole is nihilistic and delusional. On the scale, from the PDF released Friday: Scope and Scale of NSA Collection According to figures published by a major tech provider, the Internet carries 1,826 Petabytes of information per day. In its foreign intelligence mission, NSA touches about 1.6% of that. However, of the 1.6% of the data, only 0.025% is actually selected for review. The net effect is that NSA analysts look at 0.00004% of the world's traffic in conducting their mission - that's less than one part in a million. Put another way, if a standard basketball court represented the global communications environment, the NSA's total collection would be represented by an area smaller than area smaller than a dime on that basketball court. On the Policy: The Government cannot conduct substantive queries of the bulk records for any purpose other than counterterrorism. Under the FISC orders authorizing the collection, authorized queries may only begin with an "identifier", such as a telephone number, that is associated with one of the foreign terrorist organizations that was previously identified and approved by the Court. [...] "But Attackerman said that there's a Backdoor!!!11" So what? They still can't use it unless it's related to their foreign-intelligence mission. They could do almost anything with their data collection technologies, but the Policy says it's illegal. Classified information is compartmentalized. There's such a thing as "need to know" - just having a TS clearance doesn't mean that one has automatic access to any TS material one wants to see. If you believe Gibbs on MSNBC last night, whenever he accessed classified material at the White House, he had to sign it out and sign it back in when he was done with it. There are Policies in place to protect the distribution of TS information. The Policies in place say that what the NSA has been doing is legal. Congress wrote and passed the law that makes it legal. The courts have said it is legal. If you don't like the law that makes what the NSA is doing legal, petition your representatives to change the law. Sign the CREDO petition that Ashton pointed to. But don't just sit back (as too many do) and scream "Tyrrany!!!111" and throw up your hands and say "They're all lying!!111". Playing Grandpa Simpson and doing the "Old Man Yells at Cloud" bit doesn't help anyone. FWIW. Cheers, Scott.
Post #379,082 by boxley 8/10/13 5:59:12 PM Reply	They don't just sit around or do anything they want without consequences. Okay, if snowden kept his yap shut after perusing all of that stuff, what would be his consequences? I know he broke policies but as long as he kept it out of the news he could do anything he wanted. I said in 2001 that the patriot act was a very bad idea, it still is. Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 58 years. meep
Post #379,085 by Another Scott 8/10/13 6:30:11 PM Reply	Then what? Few seem to be willing to take the next step in these logical inferences they want us to follow.... Okay, if snowden kept his yap shut after perusing all of that stuff, what would be his consequences? I know he broke policies but as long as he kept it out of the news he could do anything he wanted. Like what? Have someone arrested? Help me out here. Evidence that is obtained illegally cannot be used in court. What happens to people who break rules is that they can be disciplined, fired, arrested, ... http://www.wired.com.../five-irs-employ/ Five workers at the Internal Revenue ServiceÂs Fresno, California, return processing center were charged Monday with computer fraud and unauthorized access to tax return information for allegedly peeking into taxpayersÂ files for their own purposes. Given Snowden's big mouth and inflated opinion of himself, I think he would have been caught eventually. FWIW. Cheers, Scott.
Post #379,221 by crazy 8/13/13 8:15:57 PM Reply	You OBVIOUSLY did not read this http://www.wctrib.co...en-intel-evidence Here's a bit: As Reuters reported Monday, the Special Operations Division of the DEA funnels information from overseas NSA intercepts, domestic wiretaps , informants and a large DEA database of telephone records to authorities nationwide to help them launch criminal investigations of Americans. The DEA phone database is distinct from a NSA database disclosed by former NSA contractor Edward Snowden. - See more at: http://www.wctrib.co...ash.fZEcMgSr.dpuf Or this: http://mobile.reuter...20130805?irpc=932 Here's abit: ...."Remember that the utilization of SOD cannot be revealed or discussed in any investigative function," a document presented to agents reads. The document specifically directs agents to omit the SOD's involvement from investigative reports, affidavits, discussions with prosecutors and courtroom testimony. Agents are instructed to then use "normal investigative techniques to recreate the information provided by SOD." ....A former federal agent in the northeastern United States who received such tips from SOD described the process. "You'd be told only, ÂBe at a certain truck stop at a certain time and look for a certain vehicle.' And so we'd alert the state police to find an excuse to stop that vehicle, and then have a drug dog search it," the agent said. Catch that? They MAKE SHIT UP to hide the source if the info. It is STANDARD OPERATING PROCEDURE, well documented. And this is not "Stan" of American Dad (what shitty character to use in an argument. I used to think so much more highly of you). This is ROWS and ROWS of people who's ONLY job is to "analyze" tidbits of email and texts and then forward them along, either flagging a national security interest issue or (primarily) a drug issue (to the DEA). That's it, they do nothing else. It's already there, it's a done deal, been up and running for a few years. Ever since carnivore (TIS), they just renamed it. They didn't even need google or MS help, it just makes it easier for them. And don't bother saying: Jeez, if you feel so strongly about this, what are YOU doing! You are misdirecting. We have a specific discussion. Some of us "believe" (or know) something, others say either IT ISN'T TRUE or IT ISN'T SO BAD, TOUGH SHIT LIVE WITH IT. So I'm trying to figure out which of those answers are you. Which one?
Post #379,226 by Another Scott 8/13/13 9:04:14 PM Reply	Read enough of it... http://www.reuters.c...BRE97409R20130805 Wiretap tips forwarded by the SOD usually come from foreign governments, U.S. intelligence agencies or court-authorized domestic phone recordings. Because warrantless eavesdropping on Americans is illegal, tips from intelligence agencies are generally not forwarded to the SOD until a caller's citizenship can be verified, according to one senior law enforcement official and one former U.S. military intelligence analyst. "They do a pretty good job of screening, but it can be a struggle to know for sure whether the person on a wiretap is American," the senior law enforcement official said. Tips from domestic wiretaps typically occur when agents use information gleaned from a court-ordered wiretap in one case to start a second investigation. http://www.balloon-j.../#comment-4569162 The DEA and IRS get the equivalent of anonymous tips when other security agencies find evidence of illegal behavior in their investigations. Is this shocking? They then have to go and do their own investigations and rely solely on their own evidence to do their own law enforcement. Is that shocking? A bunch of people say this is not just legal, but normal and has been done for decades in all branches of law enforcement (the documents that brought it up are undated, so thereÂs that) and others say it sounds like itÂs unconstitutional and could be abused in technical legal ways. Fair enough, get a court to rule on it. No, this does not fit into some overarching picture of the NSA abusing its powers. Lots of nuance gets lost when reporters post sensational stories. Sometimes the nuance isn't important. Sometimes it is. Which is it here? I dunno. I'm not willing to set my hair on fire over this without more information. YMMV. Cheers, Scott.
Post #379,248 by mmoffitt 8/14/13 10:03:57 AM Reply	Why I do not trust them. Viola Liuzzo. That night, Liuzzo, tired but exhilarated, shuttled local marchers back to their homes. A car filled with Ku Klux Klan members tried to force her off the road. Finally, they pulled alongside Liuzzo's car and shot her in her head. The 39-year-old died instantly. ... Then, there were the rumors: After Viola Liuzzo's death, there were newspaper reports that Liuzzo had gone south to meet and have sex with black men. Another rumor claimed she was a drug addict. And the July 1965 issue of The Ladies' Home Journal published a poll that asked if readers thought Liuzzo was a good mother. Fifty-five percent didn't. ("I feel sorry for what happened," said one woman in a focus group convened to talk about the Liuzzo story, "but I feel she should have stayed home and minded her own business.") The family couldn't figure out why anyone would say such things. Then, when the Klansmen were put on trial for Liuzzo's death, they learned that a key witness was a paid FBI informant who had been in the Klansmen's car. Years later, the family sought to have Liuzzo's FBI file opened. They finally succeeded, and that's when they discovered that the rumors about her had come directly from J. Edgar Hoover. The family believes the FBI director was desperate to divert attention from the agency by smearing her. http://www.npr.org/b...everybody-s-fight NEVER underestimate what those bastards in that Yankee government are capable of.
Post #379,252 by Another Scott 8/14/13 10:10:15 AM Reply	I guess you live in fear of nuclear war, too. Hoover was an abomination and had a lifetime appointment. Things change. Cheers, Scott.
Post #379,281 by mmoffitt 8/14/13 3:27:02 PM Reply	He may be gone. But his institution thrives. I get your point though, Polly Anna. All the bad guys are gone now, right?
Post #379,283 by Another Scott 8/14/13 3:33:09 PM Reply	Absolutely. We live in the best of all possible worlds...
Post #379,298 by crazy 8/14/13 7:42:51 PM Reply	And I'm sure this means nothing to you as well https://www.techdirt...s-miserably.shtml Math, it's not that hard, at least for those who look.
Post #379,299 by Another Scott 8/14/13 8:06:36 PM Reply	Slow news day, I guess.
Post #379,300 by boxley 8/14/13 8:32:58 PM Reply	one figure in there is wrong the percentage of email that is spam is in the high 90 percentile, not 68.7% Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 58 years. meep
Post #379,083 by boxley 8/10/13 6:02:54 PM Reply	not sure about what part of tech you work in How would Stan Smith (of "American Dad!") working at Ft. Meade report to his boss when it comes time for his annual review that he's investigating text messages from Americans? When that is an illegal act? people lie their ass off to the security folks all the time. I have worked in banking, telecomm, federal government, oil and healthcare large organizations. In everyone of them they will lie their ass off when it comes to security. Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 58 years. meep
Post #379,086 by Another Scott 8/10/13 6:58:01 PM Reply	There are records when it comes to TS information. E.g. http://www.wright.ed...lass/Handling.htm This isn't just a matter of saying to some random security checker, "Yeah, I followed the rules" or something. This isn't keeping virus definitions up to date. There are serious controls in place (that can be broken or ignored, of course). HTH. Cheers, Scott.
Post #379,092 by boxley 8/10/13 9:06:08 PM Reply	wow heavy https://www.cms.gov/...ogin/default.aspx I deal with stuff like this on a daily basis from the other side of the login Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 58 years. meep
Post #379,097 by Another Scott 8/10/13 9:19:47 PM Reply	Then you know what I'm talking about and are trolling?
Post #379,099 by boxley 8/10/13 9:43:26 PM Reply	nope, those policies are only used to wipe you ass clean when you have a breach. They will not stop folks who are lazy, intentionally mean harm, or stupid(or ignorant). See it all the time in this and other industries. Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 58 years. meep
Post #379,100 by Ashton 8/10/13 10:05:37 PM Reply	I agree with your analysis in posts above. Inevitably: one Must trust that.. [some] Other Persons are Trust-worthy as thee/close-enough. IF.. a one is paranoid about All Government PowerÂ (then s/he'd Better be paranoid about All Bizness Power and.. ALL The Financial Conmen too. (try and tell Them apart! from the less-venal ones, if there are two or three of those somewhere.) Yes, I Want to see the cynical/totalitarian-modeled ""Patriot"" Act annulled! Something Sane put-back --after much more debate than has yet occurred, something like Newly-THOUGHT-about/debated Laws whose Initial [not amended and amended and forgotten] Form is clearly expressed, whose Oversight-requirements are quite as clearly enumerated, and whose Oversight boards include a variety of literate citizens: who also Get Full Clearances after investigations du jour: their Need-to-Know matching All Areas of Each's actual responsibility--as they Must. For the Paranoid-unto Misanthropy -??- I believe that all these, even sincerely-Practiced Safeguards--as would be audited for compliance: by other mere Persons..??? Would Never Be Enough cha. cha. cha. No. point. in. debating. such: ask me about dealing with a (certified) paranoid schizophrenic, sometime. In the normal Gaussian of brain-wiring: it seems that we have minuscule info about the Range (even!) of mis-wirings possible, so ... ... 'Science' won't buy us a litmus for discerning Integrity + Sanity, (either.) Lastly, re. attitudes in this, as towards the [n + 100] intransigent Other Problems for which, because All 'Answers' necessarily try to encompass many contradictory ingredients --are necessarily complex, verbose and thus Not Simple: each person's attitude towards each complex 'Solution'/stab at one, is inevitably related to that person's personal assessment of the Question: Just How Corrupt IS Murica, anyway?? And if one says, "Totally!" then: what's left to 'discuss'? The Nihilists (like the Totally!-responders) will Grab Their Guns, the Wittgenstein faction their philosophical-puzzle dictionaries and Popper's folks--their language glossaries.. (And I shall, that day--attempt to rescue more cats/quicker; my allegiance is to their total guilelessness ... as no human possesses) *..as I ignore the 'people removing their clothes at bus stops', tune out everyone who begins any sentence, I Am Certain that ____* and probably limit my meeja inputs even further.** Luck to Us All, especially in a time where mis-Communication towers over mere occasional instances where.. it Does Not.
Post #379,102 by boxley 8/11/13 12:02:22 AM Reply	nsa needs an Angleton with brief only exceeded by director and a way to get around them if needed. Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 58 years. meep
Post #379,103 by Another Scott 8/11/13 12:15:21 AM Reply	Re: nsa needs an Angleton with brief only exceeded by direct http://en.wikipedia....eton#The_Molehunt Throughout the 1960s and 1970s Angleton privately accused various foreign leaders of being Soviet spies. He twice informed the Royal Canadian Mounted Police that he believed Prime Minister Lester Pearson and his successor Pierre Trudeau to be agents of the Soviet Union. In 1964, under pressure from Angleton, the RCMP detained John Watkins, a close friend of Pearson and formerly Canadian Ambassador to the Soviet Union; Watkins died during interrogation by the RCMP and the CIA, and was subsequently cleared of suspicion. Angleton accused Swedish Prime Minister Olof Palme, West German Chancellor Willy Brandt, and British Prime Minister Harold Wilson of using their access to NATO secrets to benefit the USSR. Brandt resigned in 1974, after one of his aides was found to be a mole from the East German secret police. Angleton came to suspect Secretary of State Henry Kissinger, who commented wryly that even the most brilliant and loyal officers should not spend their entire career in such pressurized and paranoid fields.[citation needed] Angleton also privately accused numerous members of Congress and President Gerald Ford of treason.[citation needed] Angleton's notorious pursuit of the "5th Man", who he believed had penetrated a secret agency in Washington, was solved, he believed, when DCI William Colby fired him.[citation needed] No one was above suspicion, and even Angleton himself was accused by others of working for the Soviets.[citation needed] Resignation[edit source \| editbeta] Angleton's resignation was announced on Christmas Eve of 1974, just as President Ford demanded that Colby report on the allegations and as various Congressional committees announced that they would launch their own inquiries. Three of Angleton's senior aides in counter-intelligence, his deputy Raymond Rocca, executive officer of the counter-intelligence division William J. Hood, and Angleton's chief of operations Newton S. Miller, were coaxed into retirement within a week of Angleton's resignation after it was made clear that they would be transferred elsewhere in the agency rather than promoted, and the counter-intelligence staff was reduced from 300 people to 80 people. Yeah, someone looking for Communists under every bed, suspicious of foreign leaders, accusing the president of treason, etc., is just what the NSA needs. Sure. :-/ Cheers, Scott.
Post #379,105 by boxley 8/11/13 12:57:50 AM Reply	on your way to imprision the CIC you find a lot of bad guys all of the sleazys checking on their baby mommas. Started a jacket on you because you told them to fuck off down the road in public. The real problem, humans having access to that kind of data. Oh hey, you can't search that without a supervisor signoff and a warrant. Okay, but the mount won't stay up Then do whatever you have to do, here is the root password and by the way, rm -rf the logs so they can't tell why we went down. I need my job security Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 58 years. meep
Post #379,107 by Ashton 8/11/13 2:16:18 AM Reply	Is that your bid for the Year's Silliest 'thought'?
Post #379,171 by Ashton 8/12/13 4:32:36 PM Reply	I retract above.. ("Do I contradict myself? Very well, I contradict myself; I contain multitudes ..." --Walt Whitman) OK, what we need then, given your encyclopædic Knowledge of the execrable degree-of-sloth common to all bit-biting-Bitches {??} IS >YOU< I propose this Joint Executive/Legislative Branches Resolution: As President, I announce today the appointment of The Security Ayatollah: for a Prosperous/Safe/Fun America. This Person [Name/location/data/picture withheld: for all reasons of his Personal Security] shall have Ultimate-veto over any existing Security Regulations affecting the States, the Nation, {all participating in the Coalition of the Willing}..So Long as He {..we let him} Lives. His compensation shall be adequate, with a basic ration of whale blubber for daily sustenance--Guaranteed. We [The Congress/The President] shall Get Back to Y'all.. after his revisions have been installed, his performance evaluated and The Country Remains un-Nuked. Thank You.. that will be all for this press conference..Bailiff! detain that man in the back row with the knapsack!!!

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