You think you're tweaking a devout Christian?

Post #327,750 by drook 6/10/10 6:55:26 PM Reply	You think you're tweaking a devout Christian? Where'd you get that idea? Besides which, religion is only one of three things that "Jew" can mean. It's also a nationality and an ethnicity. But that's not a distinction that typically comes up when people talk about Jews being persecuted. Should it? Do you think the persecution is mostly because they don't accept Jesus? Because that wouldn't explain why Muslims seem to like killing Jews. So I'm back the the same damn question I've been asking since the beginning: Why do Jews seem to draw more than their share of the violence in the world? And if your side of the discussion depends on what I think about the world, there's no point. I don't know why, and I'm asking what you think. Do you, in fact, have an opinion? Or are you just "tweaking the Jesus freak"? Which wouldn't make much sense, since I'm not one. -- Drew
Post #327,752 by crazy 6/10/10 7:14:45 PM Reply	Nope I think I'm tweaking someone who barely believes, has discounted almost all of it, but still holds on to a few core bits. And it probably struggling to (see, no fucking clue here, no idea about your internal direction). So I brought into the issue what we do with our kids, because that is pretty much the best external indicator concerning our relationship with the religion of our parents, and what level of commitment we offer to it. Giving kids to program is a pretty high commitment. How you explain the programming afterwards to them decides on your amount of deception on behalf of the religion. You want to know how, as a majority, you are programmed to actively dislike us? How it is not just all a persecution complex. Feel free to google the following. Don't ask me to find you links, I'm not another scott, and I HATE reading about this shit. Jewish Blood Libel And don't bother getting back here in short amount of time, glancing around. Do some deep reading, and tell me you have a clue of the impact over thousands of years. And btw, I'd be happy to rip on the move to the Muslim side if you want. We started this on US and the melting point, and all that lovely stuff. Which means almost no muslims in the picture until far later. But enough for now, I've got fun to do. Get back to me on your googling and I'll continue if you wish.
Post #327,762 by drook 6/10/10 8:44:18 PM Reply	Last try I'd heard of it, but didn't know the extent. But it still shows that Jews are targeted. It doesn't explain why. People who hate Jews don't hate them because of blood libel; they believe the blood libel because they hate Jews. If that's your explanation for why -- that Jews are targeted because people believe blood libel -- then we'll just have to disagree. Leaders of powerful, worldwide organizations aren't usually gullible people, prone to believing ridiculous stories. They're willing to use those stories to sway the general populace, but I doubt they believe it themselves. If Christian leadership has turned a blind eye to blood libel, it's because they find it useful. Why? -- Drew
Post #327,773 by Another Scott 6/10/10 10:01:39 PM Reply	Tradition? (No offense intended to anyone in the following.) Human groups seem to have had the need to point to the "other" as an enemy. If your religion is based on 2000 year old stories and traditions that "Jews killed God", well ... :-( I don't think you'll find a single reason why so many people hate Jewish people. I don't think that Jews are unique in being hated that way, either. (Recall that Samaritans were hated in the New Testament stories, that's why the "good Samaritan" probably has a different meaning than has been passed down to us.) It ultimately comes down to some sort of cultural and/or religious tradition that is passed on to new generations. I think you could apply many of the same observations to the Roma/Romani ("gypsies") - http://en.wikipedia....iki/Romani_people . They have their own long-standing traditions, have suffered ostracism, slavery, etc. There are differences, of course. When I was growing up in the south in the 1960s, I often heard "Polack" jokes. As Wikipedia notes, they only work if the listener has an understanding of what a "Polack" is - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polack_joke . There's nothing that objectively explains Poles being the butt of such jokes - people are taught that by their elders. I think it's mostly the same thing with the stupid hatred too many have for Jewish people, or Roma, or Catholics, or Hindus, or Blacks, or the Irish - http://www.theatlant...-the-irish/57556/ or, ... One element that probably has to be present for the hatred to take hold is a certain proximity to the group but not too much. It would be hard for a demagogue to stir up Americans to hate people from Suriname because only a tiny fraction of the population would have any idea what he was talking about. But people from France, well, that would be much easier. Even if most of the country has never met someone from France, there are traditional stories, movies, TV shows, etc., that can be used to feed a stereotype. But if you grew up with Parisians, and your favorite musician was from Nice, and so forth, well the manufactured prejudice won't work. My $0.02. Cheers, Scott.
Post #327,774 by boxley 6/10/10 10:02:52 PM Reply	nit Leaders of powerful, worldwide organizations aren't usually gullible people, prone to believing ridiculous stories total bullshit. Hitler beleived it. Henry Ford believed it. Nixon certainly believed it, he even appointed a czar to remove jews from government. Occultists blame the fact that jews are a new design recent upon earth and resented by the older inhabitants. I have met the odd leader or two anf they are no smarter or less prejudiced than the average jamoke. thanx, bill
Post #327,777 by drook 6/10/10 10:07:58 PM Reply	Fairy nuff How about this: You may get to lead a powerful, worldwide organization while still being gullible and stupid. But you don't get there without also being ruthless and willing to practice situational ethics. -- Drew
Post #327,779 by boxley 6/10/10 10:09:14 PM Reply	I agree with that
Post #327,801 by crazy 6/11/10 4:15:05 AM Reply	I'm done It seems that Box covered most, but it seems you missed the core. This is an active useful tool for anyone in power to use as an excuse. Even if they don't believe, who cares. It works. Why are the priests in trouble for raping little boys right now? It's the Jew's fault, at least the Vatican tried. And just because they then disavowed it, that's just because the Jews made them. It was such an easy recent example, and rather than look at it an laugh, you instead thought: Yeah, maybe they didn't cause this one, but they are blamed so much for so many things, I wonder what they did to desearve this attitude. And that attitude is what makes me react in the EXTREME. Tell me, when did you stop beating your wife. How the fuck can someone who doesn't beat their wife answer that question? You can drop "It's the jew's fault" into any social situation that is currently in crisis, and you will have people nodding in agreement. And why is it the Jew's fault as opposed to anyone else? We killed Christ, and STILL refuse to accept him into our hearts, how dare we! The dietary laws ensured we would rarely be in a social situation that allowed easy intermixing. We drain the blood of children in our hidden rituals. We cause everyone else's financial suffering by our selfish actions. We are too damn smart and sneaky. We don't care about the major issues that you care about. We are different, have all the money, all the power, yet refuse to share it. We have a deal with the devil because we don't seem to die due to food poisoning (those dietary laws have a reason). We have those weird beards, silly ringlets, and odd clothes, so we are markedly different. Reading for yourself (rather than the person in charge) has been a cornerstone of our religion, so our literacy is much higher than the the surrounding group. I can go on and on, but what's the point? You started with thinking we have a persecution complex. You just seemed to realize we actually ARE persecuted, so now the question became, what have you done to deserve this persecution, since people would never be so fucking atrocious without a good reason.
Post #327,803 by boxley 6/11/10 7:51:09 AM Reply	last paragraph an excellent summary
Post #327,824 by drook 6/11/10 11:21:14 AM Reply	You finally answered me, thanks We killed Christ, and STILL refuse to accept him into our hearts, how dare we! You mentioned that before, but didn't make it clear that you think that's the central issue. I never suggested Jews did anything to deserve what's been done to them. My original question was: So assuming it's true that Jews are the most persecuted people in the world, and assuming it's not mostly a case of seeing what you're looking for ... why are Jews persecuted? I'm really interested in the answer, because I can't think of one. You responded six times before ever suggesting that it had anything to do with Jesus. Jesus! No Jesus, no peace. Then asked a question about the pedophile priest scandal. It looked like misdirection. I didn't get that you were saying that lack of belief in Jesus was the central issue. Because, you know, you didn't say that. Was this it? And yes, I'm aware of the many splits within the the cult of Jesus. You guys war with each other all the time. But it seems you can occasionally agree on a common enemy. Was that where you were making it clear what you thought was the central issue? If I'm supposed to pick up on hints and implications, then maybe you can pick up on my direct statement: People who hate Jews don't hate them because of blood libel; they believe the blood libel because they hate Jews. Maybe I'm wrong. You obviously think so, but it took this long for you to finally state your opinion clearly. When people believed the Earth was flat, the Earth hadn't done anything to "deserve" that belief. But there was a reason for it. Jews haven't done anything to deserve what they've gotten, but I assume there has to be a reason for it. And I've been trying as hard as I can to understand what that reason is. The blood libel stuff is so obviously crap that I find it hard to accept that intelligent people would believe it. Most of the so-called reasons are obviously crap. Can mass stupidity really stay this organized for this long? The reasons having to do with human nature make more sense to me: * Jews value thinking for yourself and standing apart from people who don't. Man is a herd animal, so outsiders and individualists will always be targets. * Jews have been successful enough for long enough -- because they value thinking for yourself? -- that there are a bunch of them all around the world. So when the local majority is looking for someone to beat up on, there's a good chance there are Jews around. Both points raised in this thread, by the way. And after talking around the issue for two days, you finally tell me what you think: It's because Jews killed Jesus. Maybe it's a combination of all three reasons, and many more besides. And maybe on a day-to-day basis it doesn't matter what the reason is: It happens and Jews need to defend themselves. But if the fighting is ever going to end, doesn't there need to be some common understanding of what the fight is actually about? -- Drew
Post #327,827 by malraux 6/11/10 11:34:50 AM Reply	Mass stupidity. Can mass stupidity really stay this organized for this long? Yes. And it doesn't even need organization. People are stupid. Mass stupidity is simply the emergent behavior. Regards, -scott Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson.
Post #327,829 by drook 6/11/10 11:35:43 AM Reply	But look at the Tea Party They have a different flavor of stupidity every time I see another story about them. -- Drew
Post #327,830 by malraux 6/11/10 11:39:55 AM Reply	But it's still stupidity, non? Stupid atoms are made up of all kinds of stupid quark flavors. Regards, -scott Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson.
Post #327,832 by folkert 6/11/10 12:04:44 PM Reply	You'd have fun at... one of the motorcycle forums I peruse and tag the Tea Party as the Tea Baggers. Pisses them RIGHT OFF.
Post #327,853 by crazy 6/11/10 8:04:29 PM Reply	Then you are as stupid as the people you are making fun of The blood libel stuff is so obviously crap that I find it hard to accept that intelligent people would believe it. Most of the so-called reasons are obviously crap. Can mass stupidity really stay this organized for this long? Can ignorance to documented history of the many times it was used to rile up the people on a killing spree be so easily maintained? When I told you to do some deep reading, I meant it. While your final judgement of the "real" why is reasonable, it does not speak to the horrors of what came before, and the reality that it can be repeated. Again and again. You discounted it. And went searching for something else, because it didn't fit into your world view. This is not a recent thing, it has many years of many generations to sink in as a core cultural attitude in the people who's grandparent's heard about it and had fun killing the jews in their town. After you read about 20 stories, of towns running out the Jews (and make no mistake, if they didn't leave, they'd be killed), and realize it barely scratches the surface, you may come back with a darker view on humanity, and what groups of people are capable of. Even if the neighbor didn't believe the story, it was still a good excuse to steal the land. So it gets retold again and again.
Post #327,855 by drook 6/11/10 10:38:31 PM Reply	There's a difference between stupid and ignorant I'll cop to ignorance. Hell, that's what this has been about (for me) from the beginning. I can't remember who made the reference to Jewish Sunday school, but I do remember the substance being that they were taught all the history of Jewish oppression. Guess what? I didn't go to Jewish Sunday school. Or any other day of the week either. I have no more reason to know the history of Jews than I do the history of Tamils. (Random group I came up with that I know next-to-nothing about.) That information was not in my head, so how could the understanding be there? You may think that, as a member of the majority culture, I'm damaged and can only learn by repetition. But next time I ask a question, maybe you can try a straight answer first and see if it gets through. -- Drew
Post #327,857 by Another Scott 6/11/10 11:12:24 PM Reply	(#30564) http://iwt.mikevital....iwt?postid=30564 (This has been an interesting thread. Sorry you got flamed.) Cheers, Scott.
Post #327,861 by boxley 6/12/10 12:16:31 AM Reply	you have no need to have a history of the jews tamils or yupiks. You only need to know that its nice to be sovreign and it sux if you dont.
Post #327,865 by crazy 6/12/10 8:14:20 AM 6/12/10 8:53:47 AM Reply	I apologize for the overreaction But you are somewhere in between, at least you were a couple of days ago. You were being purposefully ignorant, ignoring evidence, just because you couldn't believe people are either so stupid or so evil. I gave you a method of solving your ignorance. You read a bit, no where near enough,and then restated the cornerstone of your attitude, which is simply and easily demonstrably incorrect. So, at what point does lazy ignorance become stupidity? I just went to the Wiki page here: http://en.wikipedia....ibel_against_Jews See those little areas that hightlight when your cursor passes over them? Start clicking. Don't ask me for my personal viewpoint, make your own. But try to make it from as much material as possible. From one of your original posts on the matter: http://iwt.mikevital....iwt?postid=30640 Is her premise factually correct? Do the majority of the Jews currently in Israel have roots that go back before 1948, or do the majority come from people who moved in after the creation of the modern state of Israel? I honestly don't know the answer, and wouldn't know where to look to find out. . But if she's correct that most of the Jews in Israel moved in after 1948, then she has a point in calling them occupiers. Dude, you really wrote that. I honestly don't know the answer, and wouldn't know where to look to find out. . Um, we have the most incredible information resource available, to make our own judgments. It starts with Google and goes many directions. You have to be willing to spend a couple of days of reading, and then judge the correctness of what you read. That is why you need to read multiple viewpoints of the same stories where possible. Which before the internet was practically impossible unless you were smart, rich and lived in major city next to a library. And BTW: I don't support a large amount of what Israel does. But I KNOW, if there is no Israel, then most of the people in Israel would probably be dead. If their actions were judged against the actions of their neighbors, they'd be f'ing saints. But they are not, they are judged by people comfy across the world, against a backdrop of cultural dislike. Maybe you simply don't like to read and thought you could ask the IGM and someone would answer you, but it is doubtful. No matter what you may have learned in this thread, it barely scratches the surface of 2 thousand years of being hunted. Remember the old Saturday night tag line: Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition! Do you get a chuckle out of the skit? Not me, and I'm a lightweight on paranoia and historical perspective. Does it make me angry? Not at 1st. No, it makes me incredibly saddened. And fearful for the next one. A bit more thought and the terror and the revulsion pop up. Anger comes, but only if I can find a focus for the anger. And people deserving of the anger are usually out of reach from me, so I simply have to accept it. Have you ever been told something that drops a rock over your heart? The moment you realize that the people surrounding you are possible of such incredible horror? Oh yeah, just now. But you don't have to worry, when the moment comes, they won't be killing you. They'll just ask you to ignore them when they are coming after me. And you may or may not have accepted it as a reality. Now look on the flip side. The horror is out there, and there is a segment of the population that simply doesn't believe it. And if they don't, they then want to know why it is out there. And want the answer in a few moments. Edited by crazy June 12, 2010, 08:53:47 AM EDT Expand All History
Post #327,869 by crazy 6/12/10 9:26:51 AM Reply	Also, this entire interaction with me was a lesson in Jewish thought, at least mine and how I feel the ONLY way to learn is to either experience something or research it yourself. A single viewpoint is simply that, a single viewpoint. And single reference can be bullshit. So you need the EXPERIENCE of RESEARCHING for yourself. There is no single thing I could have answered, at least that you'd accept. While the Christians didn't like us because we killed Christ (according to them), the Romans before them didn't like us as well. We didn't believe in being killed and taken as slaves, and we fought to the death. Oh, actually, I did give the single thing. Early on. WE DON'T KNEEL. TO ANYONE. TO ANY KING. TO ANY GOD. TO ANY PRIEST. WE DON'T KNEEL. We don't allow ANY entity ownership of our being, our identity, simply because someone told us to. When you were a little kid, and you BELIEVED, part of that belief was totally giving yourself over to the God and Church that you were a part of. You BELIEVED, and it made it OK to lose your identity. It's just like being in love. And to cap it off, the only way you are supposed to feel this level of joy is in a church sanctioned marriage. F'em. Anything they told you at that point was because they LOVED you. Right? That was the line. We don't simply accept whatever line of bullshit we are being fed is the truth. We research it. Me trying to get you to figure this out for yourself is about as core to my being as anything else.
Post #327,871 by drook 6/12/10 10:50:06 AM Reply	"Go look it up" isn't helpful You told me to look up "Jewish blood libel". On the first page were links to forums.catholic.com where someone linked to a book by a Jewish writer saying that yes, there was a Jewish sect that had sacrificed Jewish children. There was also a link to jewwatch.com. I guess you can figure out where they're coming from. Should I have believed them? Yes, I spent some time following links, but I can only read ranting for so long. Obviously there are some people who really hate Jews. That doesn't make them accurate historical sources. Does it make blood libel the primary accusation against Jews? I can't tell. As for the population statistics, I searched on "when did Jews move to Israel". I got no useful numbers on the first three pages of links, but plenty more ranting. I didn't think to use the term "demographics", but Box found the numbers. I could spend a year doing research and maybe come close the amount of information about Jews that you've accumulated in your lifetime. But I won't. Understanding is important to me, but it's not the central issue in my life. I understand what you're saying about research, but it's not the only way to learn. No one can research everything. We all have to pick and choose and, to some extent, rely on the opinions of others we trust for the rest. So I don't subscribe to your belief that research and personal experience are the ONLY way to learn. I also don't accept outrageous claims about important issues just because I heard it from the right guy with the right funny hat. If I don't know, I'll try to find someone I trust who does know, and I'll ask them. If what they say doesn't make sense, I'll ask more questions and/or go follow up on what they've said. You know, like I've been doing for three days with you. And we're still using the same words, but meaning different things. To you "assimilate" means "kneel". If I moved to Israel, and spent the years of research and converted, I would have assimilated into that culture. Is that kneeling? I heard a story once of a nice Jewish boy who said, "Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's, render unto God that which is God's." Yeah, I know, wrong book. But that was written when Jesus was still a Jew, not a Christian. I read that as a lesson about assimilation. Accept that parts of the majority culture that aren't central to your identity, but keep the parts that matter. I don't think that's a good idea because it's in the bible. I think it's one of many good ideas that happens to be in the bible, alongside a whole bunch of mythology, misogyny and hypocrisy. -- Drew
Post #327,875 by boxley 6/12/10 2:57:07 PM Reply	here is a single page that covers most of it http://remember.org/...ot.classical.html
Post #327,876 by Another Scott 6/12/10 3:30:15 PM Reply	Thanks very much.
Post #327,878 by drook 6/12/10 5:10:27 PM Reply	Yes, that's what I was looking for You might be surprised (or not) that in 7 years of attending Catholic school I never heard any of that. -- Drew
Post #327,880 by boxley 6/12/10 5:40:14 PM Reply	not surprised at all catholic school is about catholics, not others.
Post #327,885 by crazy 6/12/10 9:47:19 PM Reply	Good list Now I know what to point to the next time.
Post #327,886 by Ashton 6/12/10 9:53:32 PM Reply	Concise ergo Nice. While I was aware of maybe 80%, the chronology and intelligent organization makes some of the 20% worth further exploration. (I was not anti-religio as a tyke. While my mater possessed a sort of subliminal acceptance of prevailing Xian 'concepts of their God' -- she had the Good Sense not to try to point me (nor allow any proxy, as at the boarding schools, to inculcate -- beyond the 'fact' of there being periodic religio-infused assemblies there.) Consequently, as adult matters + abilities began to supersede thoughts derived from the usual treadmill of school-directed, test-oriented plots -- I came by my anti-corporate-religion decision entirely through observation, reading and then deciding from experience. But, as crazy has been emphasizing, repeating when it does not seem to penetrate enough -- grokking the Jewish situational-history requires some considerable experience of Real History ==> that which requires (also) the delving critically into one's local, Official/National-sanctioned and Bowdlerized versions: ever to earn usage of that Real- modifier, in any aspect of the whole. Thus ... With the caveat succinctly stated by Mike re. overall performance of the extant government of Israel / their peculiar blindspots regarding ever Noticing the parallels between their employment of Power and ... that Usage which they have ever Fled-from: I claim to comprehend sufficiently 'how it came to be' that Jews have been such a handy target for deflection of attention from any pol's current tight-spot. The 'kneeling' metaphor is necessary and sufficient to recognize the absolute necessity of there being Jewish Territory somewhere on what's left of this planet. (For me this has 0 to do with any concepts of covenants with supernaturals or other meta-Real Estate transactions.) It is simply necessary to protect these non-kneelers from every other brand-name of One True God-worshippers. Let's SomeOne! -- get bus(ier) holding up a Mirror to the Israeli gummint Et Al, before some next action is taken to be so odious that even supporters [of the above, generally] join the brainless, slavering mobs with shouted simplicities One More Time. But with nukes. <rest case ... for 2x4 upside heads of those myopic and amnesiac solons.> I could almost see voting for Palin in 2012 on the grounds that this sorry ratfucking excuse for a republic, this savage, smirking, predatory empire deserves her. Bring on the Rapture, motherfuckers! -- via RC
Post #327,887 by Another Scott 6/12/10 10:53:31 PM Reply	More at Sullivan: "It's much funnier in Arabic" http://andrewsulliva...-mistake-ctd.html Cheers, Scott.
Post #327,892 by boxley 6/12/10 11:59:44 PM Reply	great, now I have to find an allen king clip not this one, the hemeneh, hemenah one http://www.youtube.c...tch?v=eXwqoblFlEU great, no link but essentially the same. As a young comic dishwasher watching the old time comics doing standup the best joke was half english half yiddish. I cant explain it well enough by writing. Same effect tho, doesnt translate well into straight english. RIP Alen, saw him live and it was a great experience thanx, bill
Post #327,895 by Another Scott 6/13/10 8:27:52 AM Reply	:-) That's a funny clip. I haven't been able to find what you're looking for, but I did find this - http://crazymotion.n...Irb9fNRrMjAy.html :-D Cheers, Scott.

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