Her boss has the right to fire her

Post #327,614 by drook 6/9/10 10:44:41 AM Reply	Her boss has the right to fire her Doesn't mean he should. See the difference? I think people should be allowed to do what they want with what they own. And I should be allowed to say they're wrong for doing it. It's that whole "defend to the death your right to say it" thing. And another thing ... I wasn't going to bring this up, but it's been knocking around my head for a couple of days and I need to get it out of there. I've heard people say that Jews are historically the most persecuted people in the world. I've got two questions about that. First, isn't it true that if you look for anything hard enough you'll eventually find it? If children are raised with constant reminders that the world is out to get them, won't they tend to see persecution around every corner? And second, when a woman says that every guy she dates eventually cheats on her, don't you eventually have to notice that the only common thread in all her relationships was her? Doesn't it make sense to ask whether it's more likely that all men are cheaters, or that she's got really poor taste in men? Say that around some people and they'll accuse you of saying, "She asked for it." No. But it's a reasonable question why "every guy" cheats on her. So assuming it's true that Jews are the most persecuted people in the world, and assuming it's not mostly a case of seeing what you're looking for ... why are Jews persecuted? I'm really interested in the answer, because I can't think of one. -- Drew
Post #327,615 by boxley 6/9/10 11:32:05 AM Reply	persecution http://www.religious....org/jud_pers.htm prior to thexian issue there was greeks babylonian egyptian liked to kick them around. Whenever you have 2 groups of people around with the majority group needing a scapegoat the minority folks get their asses kicked. Now there was several ways out of the dillema, assimilation, acceptance (like our own black americans did for many years) or war. Jews like native americans dont like to give up the things that make them stand apart so assimilation doesnt work. Acceptance is only good until they start killing you wholesale. War only works if you have the material and the control of the material, what Israel is doing. However in their own little piece of dirt they have forgotten they are a majority and are acting like a majority.
Post #327,617 by drook 6/9/10 11:57:51 AM Reply	It would appear, then ... Intentionally remaining "other" may be good for perpetuating a culture, but doesn't lead to a peaceful life. -- Drew
Post #327,621 by boxley 6/9/10 12:15:10 PM Reply	pretty much
Post #327,626 by crazy 6/9/10 2:32:10 PM 6/9/10 2:39:45 PM Reply	Exactly what I was thinking And to Drook's statement considering us the MOST persecuted isn't true. We've merely survived it. We are a constant target. And you still hear about it. So I won't bother to answer the standard trap question, ie: If so many people hate you so much, there must be a reason. Gee, thanks for the opportunity to list why people want to kill me, my parents, my relatives, my ancestors, and then attempt to refute each and every one. And stumble over something stupidly quoted from a thousand years ago, and make more people want to kill me. Box: Good link. Have fun Drook, and get a glimpse into the basis of a paranoia that allowed us to survive. http://www.religious...org/jud_pers1.htm Edited by crazy June 9, 2010, 02:39:45 PM EDT Expand All History
Post #327,630 by boxley 6/9/10 2:39:59 PM Reply	good article here http://www.ynetnews....L-3902593,00.html We were in Germany and Hungary and Czechoslovakia and Russia (where we were regularly just plain killed by Cossacks), and also, for many centuries, Poland (ditto), because we were told to get the hell out of England, France, and Spain. (Or, you know, just plain killed by handsome and heroic fairytale knights.) And you know why we were in Western Europe to begin with? Because we were told by the Greeks and the Romans Â wait for it Â to get the hell out of ÂPalestine,Â where we had been living since the beginning of recorded history.
Post #327,632 by crazy 6/9/10 2:45:52 PM Reply	Good ending IÂm really sorry they told you to get the hell out of the White House, Helen. It really wasnÂt your fault that you thought you could say what you said. ItÂs not like itÂs a secret: ThatÂs what people think. But this time, seriously. Getting the hell out is not in the cards. WeÂre just sick of moving all the time. I know. Irritating.
Post #327,654 by drook 6/9/10 4:13:29 PM Reply	You gave examples, but not why I'm not denying Jews have been persecuted and blamed for a lot. What I'm asking is why? This isn't a trap, I really don't understand why Jews should have been a target for so long, to so many people. It's not like there aren't plenty of other people who don't bow to the "right" God. Box offered a reason why: Jews refuse to assimilate. That seems to be true. It's reasonable to think that might be part of the problem. You can look at any grade school to see what happens to kids who don't fit in. None of which makes persecution acceptable. I'm just trying to understand why it happens. -- Drew
Post #327,660 by hnick 6/9/10 5:48:18 PM Reply	My take on why The Jews have a long history of moving around and keeping their own traditions: they keep their own language, dress, commerce with other Jews if possible, stress education, and generally just keep their own insular community where ever they end up. The orthodox and Hassids, while generally unoffensive, stand out like a hard on in a maternity ward. If it hits the fan, politicians want somebody to blame things on. It's a match made in heaven; they look different because of the dress, they speak to each other in a tongue that the average shitkicker can't understand, and they tend to be more successful than the average redneck since they are encouraged to think. In the middle ages, the only people on the Iberian peninsula who could count to 11 without dropping trow were the Jews (when the Muslims moved in that changed of course.) They are easy targets when some politician needs a fall guy. They are different. Disclaimer: much of this was cribbed from my first wife, who was of Ukrainian decent and was raised orthodox.
Post #327,661 by crazy 6/9/10 6:14:57 PM Reply	Refuse to assimilate? You are not really connecting on this. If assimilation means bowing down and becoming a slave, whether in mind or body, then it really isn't an option. Jews that assimilated stopped being jews. So what would you have left? Those that said FUCK YOU to authority for ages. You need to remember that even in the jews in charge of the local group always had the ability to argue. There is never an ultimate authority in charge, just a bunch of old men arguing, and occasionally a charistmatic rabbi. And those of us who are "reform", are a few steps further out in our ability to say FU to authority, since the synagogue was run by our parents who hired the rabbi. We were quite capable of getting a rabbi fired for being an asshole. Now compare it to your various other religions. Authority figures out the wazoo, unquestionable authority. You (and most of the world) were trained not to argue and to believe at a very early age. From my perspective, most people with that type of fairytale background are damaged goods, unable to really hold a coherent thought, living in denial and cognitive dissonance, since their whole life is based on contradictory stories. So that probably makes me annoying to talk to in areas of "belief". But I know not to engage in that conversation (for the most part). So anyway, yeah, I'll maintain my annoying shield if it keeps me from kneeling. Especially with a sword to the back of my neck.
Post #327,672 by drook 6/9/10 9:20:51 PM Reply	That's a pretty heaping helping of disdain, don't you think? I was raised catholic, but I don't practice. Partly because of the "don't think, don't question, just believe" attitude. Apparently that's not enough, though. I wasn't raised Jewish, so I'm "damaged goods". That isn't exactly a recipe for getting along with non-Jews, is it? I've heard about the Jewish tradition of scholarship, debate and questioning authority. I think more people should value those ideals. But you know what? It doesn't matter what I think. I dated girls in college who liked me just fine until their parents found out I wasn't Jewish. I wasn't allowed into their world. It's even codified in the Law of Return. Unless you are the son of a Jewish mother, you can never be a "real" Jew. I am emphatically opposed to any system based on who your parents were. It might not be fair to treat you as the spokesman for Judaism, but you're the one here talking about it, so I'll say this based on what you've written: Jews don't want to assimilate, don't want to let anyone else into their community either, but don't want any of the cultures they live among to treat them differently from the rest of the majority culture. If an adult moves into a new culture, they will always be somewhat outside that culture. But when children are born into a culture, their parents either decide to raise them as a part of the culture, or apart from the culture. Immigrants to America throughout the 1800s and early 1900s wanted their children to be Americans. Those children grew up to be the leaders of the new culture they were a part of. For them, assimilation didn't mean bowing down and becoming a slave. -- Drew
Post #327,678 by crazy 6/9/10 11:09:42 PM 6/9/10 11:16:14 PM Reply	Yup Hey, you asked why people might want to kill me (and or my supposed people that I share a gene pool with but NO biblical beliefs). I was raised catholic, but I don't practice. Yes, and I apologize for the phrasing of the above. I consider ANYONE who is raised on fairy tales, whether Santa Clause or 72 Virgins or (ready for this) THE PARTING OF THE RED SEA, damaged goods. Maybe fixable, but starting out damaged. Right now, what are you telling your children? You still in the Santa phase? Hey, get the part about the red seas? Maybe you need a burning bush? It's bullshit. Get it? This is not a Jewish being better than the others, I'm merely stating my general viewpoint. The key issue is, when does the person understand it is ALL bullshit, it is ALL about controlling the population, and while they may point to individual acts done nicely in the name of the religion, if it is any religion based on any revealed magic, and the person chooses to believe in some fairy tale even after it is obvious that it is just 1 more level of silly deception, well, then, hmmm. Not much more for me to say. Feel free to be pissed. Of course, it seems just fine for you to have that attitude about Tom Cruise, you disdainful bastard you. I do consider Jews, at least reform Jews more likely to hit that point of bullshit detection, since our indoctrination is far less intense than the other branches, and we are taught to argue pretty much everything. Ok, now we are at the CORE meat of the issue. I dated girls in college who liked me just fine until their parents found out I wasn't Jewish. I wasn't allowed into their world. Ok, I'll try to be gentle. Nah, this is too easy. heheheheheehahahahaahahaahahaha. Sorry, so you lost out. Did you consider her your "true love"? Do you believe in that concept? Did you get over her? You weren't still a virgin were you? It must have been tough. So sorry. Oh, wait, dated multiple girls and lost them because you didn't pass parental review. Seems like a pattern. Just how many did you flame out on? Dude, you got any idea just how hated I was amongst the parents of my girlfriends in those days? I doubt it. I am rock solid positive that the kindly grandma who I was shmoozing with at my daughter's 16 birthday party had 2 separate occasions where she intervened and I was allowed to live. And it wan't a gimme, it was a debate. And yes, I'm perfectly OK with parents pressuring their kids to marry within their religion. That is the goal. Make more babies for their God. For some reason, most of them think God wants babies. And I'm just as good with the kids saying FU and marrying whoever they want. I know I did, along with 2 of my siblings. Some of my kids were raised hard core Catholic, others reform Jewish who bailed before the Bar/Bat Mitzvah, so I obviously did not sacrifice them to the alter of the fairytails, other than give than a view to their history. And I NEVER lied to them when they asked what I thought of each thing "taught" by the teachers. And I never pushed them to marry within the religion. As far as who is a Jew, not my job to judge. Have fun with that. It's always interesting when an outsider of a religion tries to judge who is or is not a part of the religion. Actually, scary in my case. Maybe you are more practiced at it than me. Maybe you want to keep in mind what an non-jew has to do to convert. Years of study. It is serious dedication. It isn't a matter of saying "I" believe. What do you believe? We don't have that cornerstone of accepting your favored God into your heart, and whammo, you are magically part of the religion. Sorry, we don't do it. You really have to give up on the culture/assimilation rant. In the colonies, it was pretty much a blood bath as the various Jesus based sects tried to wipe each other out. When they got past actively killing each other, the predominant religion and culture was Jesus based. There were multiple of them, but most of them agreed Jesus was something special, and while they may not agree on the specific, as long as you believed in Jesus there was a pretty good chance they wouldn't kill you. Where the hell does that leave people who don't believe in Jesus? You want to jump to the 1800s? Early 1900s? Jesus again. Ain't it grand how they all got along? At least most of them. Oh, bullshit, they hated each other and warred with each other. And it shook out, and they created cultures that could at least pretend to understand each other. Except those damn Jews. There is NO survival of Jews (as a "people", a "culture", a "religion") if there is assimilation. Intermarraige increases the chance of non-religious kids. And increases the chance of more kids for other religions. It's all game of population control. It happens in all religions, not just Jews. Problem is, you were affected by this particular bias, so it is obviously you are scarred. So, what would have happened if it worked out? How would the kids have been raised. Would you have has a Christmas tree? Would you have told them about Santa? Hmmm. So if some people take seriously their biological imperative to ensure the survival or their particular subset of the species, I'm all for that. Not if it is enforced with violence, arranged marriage, etc. But simply talking to your kids about their role in the famly history, if they choose to continue that it would be in their benefit? Sure. Go for it. Did I miss anything? Edited by crazy June 9, 2010, 11:16:14 PM EDT Expand All History
Post #327,681 by drook 6/10/10 12:01:01 AM Reply	Wow That's a perfect example of -- sorry to say this -- Jewish persecution complex. I mentioned the girls I dated in college as an example of how outsiders weren't allowed in. Neither one of them was a big deal to me. You think that's the core meat of the issue? You think I'm scarred by it? You think I so desperately wished I could be a Jew that I now hold a grudge? Because that's what it sounds like you're saying. I'm not pissed about that. I'm not pissed that you called Christianity a fairy tale. I'm not pissed about anything. And I'm not the one saying who gets to be part of the religion. http://en.wikipedia....iki/Law_of_Return http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Who_is_a_Jew The "traditional" definition, and it seems to still be a popular definition in some circles, is that your mother had to be Jewish. I keep asking you why Jews are so often the target of the majority culture. You keep reiterating that they are the target, which I thought was assumed in the question. The closest you've come to a reason why is that Jews are raised to question authority, and Christians (and most other organized religions) are raised to follow authority. You want to know what I think is the meat of the issue? There is NO survival of Jews (as a "people", a "culture", a "religion") if there is assimilation. Common sense says that when two cultures occupy the same land, one of three things has to happen: The cultures merge; they remain distinct, co-existing in the same place; or one culture destroys the other. Thousands of years of history suggests that the second option doesn't work. That leaves merge, or destroy. The mythology of the U.S. is that we favor "merge". Yes, assimilation is the preferred behavior for a new group coming to the U.S. Maybe I'm brainwashed by my upbringing in this culture, but I believe it's also a better choice than for the two cultures to try to destroy each other. If a core part of a culture's identity is to equate assimilation with death, is it any surprise that that culture would find itself at war with other cultures on a regular basis? -- Drew
Post #327,687 by crazy 6/10/10 5:32:29 AM Reply	Congrats, you've been borged and are offering the choice If a core part of a culture's identity is to equate assimilation with death, is it any surprise that that culture would find itself at war with other cultures on a regular basis? Assimilation of a culture by a contradictory culture is death of a culture. That's pretty much the definition. Is it any surprise that people try not to take you up on that offer? Gee, thanks for pointing out our survival is our own responsibility, because it looks so silly to everyone else.
Post #327,695 by boxley 6/10/10 8:53:59 AM Reply	so the only way to be a good jew is not to be a jew? they have been trying that line for 6k years give or take a few and the jews still arn't buying. You state that Jews should get over it, they state Why? then they are accused of having a persecution complex because they refuse to become NOT jews. Native Americans have the same problem but only for about 500 years or so, they have a way to go to catch up. thanx, bill
Post #327,701 by drook 6/10/10 9:22:25 AM Reply	Nope (to both of you) What I'm saying is take responsibility for the consequences of your decision. If you would rather be at war with other cultures than join with them, stop playing victim. Like I said, the choices are merge, co-exist, destroy. Merge is unacceptable, and recent history shows when Jews are the majority they're no more willing to allow co-existence of a foreign minority culture than anyone else has been. http://www.jtsa.edu/...abbat_pesah.shtml Beware of making a covenant with the inhabitants of the land against which you are advancing, lest they be a snare in your midst. 13 No, you must tear down their altars, smash their pillars, and cut down their sacred posts; 14 for you must not worship any other god, because the Lord, whose name is Impassioned, is an impassioned God. 15 You must not make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land, for they will lust after their gods and sacrifice to their gods and invite you, and you will eat of their sacrifices. 16 And when you take wives from among their daughters for your sons, their daughters will lust after their gods and will cause your sons to lust after their gods. It sounds like people are doing what they were told. Possibly unique among current religions. But if that's the plan, then own it. You can't be the aggressor and the victim at the same time. -- Drew
Post #327,709 by boxley 6/10/10 10:12:09 AM Reply	I see let them kill you and dont whine about it, got it When they are in a minority situation and refuse to assimilate dont whine about being a victim. When you are in a small majority system surrounded by a sea of folks who want you dead, dont be a victim. Let me guess you are a real fan of george armstrong custer :-)
Post #327,711 by drook 6/10/10 10:17:33 AM Reply	You're equating assimilation with death, I don't If you would rather fight than assimilate, various majority cultures seem willing to provide the fight. -- Drew
Post #327,712 by boxley 6/10/10 10:47:30 AM Reply	Re: You're equating assimilation with death, it is, no question that it is death. Gone Disappeared. So how many mohawks do you have in your neighborhood (or maybe tuscarora, south of the lake my geography is hazy)
Post #327,723 by drook 6/10/10 1:01:45 PM Reply	Can you answer this, then? U.S. culture favors assimilation. Our mythology expressly supports it. ref: "Melting pot" (We also expressly support individuality, but we don't really mean it.) Jewish cultures opposes assimilation ... in either direction. ie: They don't want outsiders coming into their culture either. Jews equate assimilation with destruction, and their mythology expressly encourages destruction of other cultures. Without taking a stand on right and wrong, without putting words into my mouth about what a "good Jew should do", can you at least see that the Jewish cultural view of assimilation is likely to cause ongoing conflict with any other culture Jews come in contact with? And if that's true, isn't it a bit disingenuous to say that Jews have been persecuted, when their deeply-held cultural values are antagonistic to other cultures? I really don't like saying that, and I don't want it to be true, but I'm responding to what you guys are saying. -- Drew
Post #327,732 by boxley 6/10/10 2:03:05 PM Reply	Dont welcome outsiders, what makes you say that? marry outsiders you mean? Clue by 4 how many mixed white/asian white/black pacific islander or other groups handle that. Most asian cultures look down on intermarriage. East Indians. West Indian men dont like american black women. Italian families prefer their own. Arab americans still hunt down their daughters for dating outsiders. So why do only Jews have to NOT behave like everyone else? What mythology? from qbout 200AD to 1948 tell me who the jews destroyed? Do you go into parts of cleveland with your drawers baggy, hat turned backwards and all hand wavy? Of course not, it would be rude but you are saying Jews should be forced to do exactly that? Part of being american is to look down at every other culture than your own but accept them as americans. Its a gift that few other countries have. Its called tolerance for different folks but here like every other country in the world there appears to be the jewish exception.
Post #327,735 by drook 6/10/10 2:45:54 PM Reply	AAAARRRRHHHH!! NO YOU'RE NOT FUCKING SPECIAL! Yes, every culture tries to make the "other" fit in. I'm not saying that Jews uniquely should be forced to do anything. If anything, what I've been saying is that Jews are no different from anybody else. Except that they seem to have made it central to their cultural identity that they are different, and they want to be different, and that any other culture that tries to make them fit in is persecuting Jews in some unique and horrible way. Nope, it's the same way every culture has treated every other culture. -- Drew
Post #327,736 by boxley 6/10/10 3:22:00 PM Reply	so why all the complaining all the time? get out of palestine get out of england get out of spain stay in russia we kill you stay in poland we kill you stay in germany we will really kill you then after 2k years get out of palestine, go back to germany and poland. like the lady said in the link I posted, naw dont think so
Post #327,741 by crazy 6/10/10 4:30:27 PM Reply	Being different is central to all cultures There isn't an American culture. There are lots of them, with interplay on the edges with the others. Some cultures shares some very core beliefs, even in their observations and/or rituals they are different. I already went through this for you, but I understand you are from one of those cultures that they beat something into you via repetition, rather than logical progression, so I guess it is a bit tough for you. Of course, when it is done by repetition rather than logic, they can get you to believe pretty much anything. Note: I'll do a gimme for you in every message, go and blame my supposed religion for it, and those smart-ass Jews, rather than my innate horror of organized religion, at least those that consider it the correct thing to absorb others whenever possible. Ready? Sure you are. Jesus! No Jesus, no peace. Now, your turn. Explain this: http://www.google.co...le+priest+scandal And stop avoiding it.
Post #327,743 by folkert 6/10/10 4:35:54 PM Reply	What does the Vatican have to do with me? Nothing. As far as my Dad is concerned... being a Catholic is just as bad as being a Jew. In fact he hates his oldest son. He became a Catholic to marry his wife. My Dad is Presbyterian. Me, I'm somewhat Christian Reformed. What does that have to do with anything as far as the thing you keep bringing up? Nothing.
Post #327,744 by crazy 6/10/10 4:46:20 PM Reply	That is drook specific He seems to feel I'm the token spokesperson for the religion I was born into. I figure it's his turn if that is his attitude. And yes, I'm aware of the many splits within the the cult of Jesus. You guys war with each other all the time. But it seems you can occasionally agree on a common enemy.
Post #327,746 by drook 6/10/10 5:13:07 PM Reply	Power corrupts, Film at 11 I didn't respond to the priest thing because it's misdirection. I'm asking a question, trying as hard as I can not to assume any value judgments in the way I ask it, and you're responding by asking me to justify the behavior of a group I'm not affiliated with, and suggesting that I can't think for myself but rather need things beat into my via repetition. I'm not attacking Jews. And even if I were, attacking Catholics wouldn't be a good defense. You might as well attack Falun Gong. -- Drew
Post #327,748 by crazy 6/10/10 6:05:24 PM Reply	Heheheeh Gentle harmless Falun Gong. hehehehe. VS the organization that (oh, why bother). But I pointed out why to Greg. I have nothing other than personal perspective of a non-observant Jew, who actively argued the whole time I was in school, and supported my kids NOT going through the puberty ritual. The entire time, if they were being fed a line of bullshit, I made sure they were aware of it. This means I have no core belief about the required survival, at least none so strong I would not actively fight it in my own kids. So stop asking me. I'm not the GUY. Unless you are the priest pedophile are the Jew's fault guy. Since that is my hot button topic for the moment. I'm very sure that the core difference between people who are hard core embedded in whatever religion are the people that will lie to their children to support that religion. In any way. So I'm also pretty sure you are FAR more invested in this type of religious argument than I am. At least personally. Which is why I asked about what you teach your kids. So, either state a more clear picture of your world, which drives my side of the discussion, or correct me.
Post #327,750 by drook 6/10/10 6:55:26 PM Reply	You think you're tweaking a devout Christian? Where'd you get that idea? Besides which, religion is only one of three things that "Jew" can mean. It's also a nationality and an ethnicity. But that's not a distinction that typically comes up when people talk about Jews being persecuted. Should it? Do you think the persecution is mostly because they don't accept Jesus? Because that wouldn't explain why Muslims seem to like killing Jews. So I'm back the the same damn question I've been asking since the beginning: Why do Jews seem to draw more than their share of the violence in the world? And if your side of the discussion depends on what I think about the world, there's no point. I don't know why, and I'm asking what you think. Do you, in fact, have an opinion? Or are you just "tweaking the Jesus freak"? Which wouldn't make much sense, since I'm not one. -- Drew
Post #327,752 by crazy 6/10/10 7:14:45 PM Reply	Nope I think I'm tweaking someone who barely believes, has discounted almost all of it, but still holds on to a few core bits. And it probably struggling to (see, no fucking clue here, no idea about your internal direction). So I brought into the issue what we do with our kids, because that is pretty much the best external indicator concerning our relationship with the religion of our parents, and what level of commitment we offer to it. Giving kids to program is a pretty high commitment. How you explain the programming afterwards to them decides on your amount of deception on behalf of the religion. You want to know how, as a majority, you are programmed to actively dislike us? How it is not just all a persecution complex. Feel free to google the following. Don't ask me to find you links, I'm not another scott, and I HATE reading about this shit. Jewish Blood Libel And don't bother getting back here in short amount of time, glancing around. Do some deep reading, and tell me you have a clue of the impact over thousands of years. And btw, I'd be happy to rip on the move to the Muslim side if you want. We started this on US and the melting point, and all that lovely stuff. Which means almost no muslims in the picture until far later. But enough for now, I've got fun to do. Get back to me on your googling and I'll continue if you wish.
Post #327,762 by drook 6/10/10 8:44:18 PM Reply	Last try I'd heard of it, but didn't know the extent. But it still shows that Jews are targeted. It doesn't explain why. People who hate Jews don't hate them because of blood libel; they believe the blood libel because they hate Jews. If that's your explanation for why -- that Jews are targeted because people believe blood libel -- then we'll just have to disagree. Leaders of powerful, worldwide organizations aren't usually gullible people, prone to believing ridiculous stories. They're willing to use those stories to sway the general populace, but I doubt they believe it themselves. If Christian leadership has turned a blind eye to blood libel, it's because they find it useful. Why? -- Drew
Post #327,773 by Another Scott 6/10/10 10:01:39 PM Reply	Tradition? (No offense intended to anyone in the following.) Human groups seem to have had the need to point to the "other" as an enemy. If your religion is based on 2000 year old stories and traditions that "Jews killed God", well ... :-( I don't think you'll find a single reason why so many people hate Jewish people. I don't think that Jews are unique in being hated that way, either. (Recall that Samaritans were hated in the New Testament stories, that's why the "good Samaritan" probably has a different meaning than has been passed down to us.) It ultimately comes down to some sort of cultural and/or religious tradition that is passed on to new generations. I think you could apply many of the same observations to the Roma/Romani ("gypsies") - http://en.wikipedia....iki/Romani_people . They have their own long-standing traditions, have suffered ostracism, slavery, etc. There are differences, of course. When I was growing up in the south in the 1960s, I often heard "Polack" jokes. As Wikipedia notes, they only work if the listener has an understanding of what a "Polack" is - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polack_joke . There's nothing that objectively explains Poles being the butt of such jokes - people are taught that by their elders. I think it's mostly the same thing with the stupid hatred too many have for Jewish people, or Roma, or Catholics, or Hindus, or Blacks, or the Irish - http://www.theatlant...-the-irish/57556/ or, ... One element that probably has to be present for the hatred to take hold is a certain proximity to the group but not too much. It would be hard for a demagogue to stir up Americans to hate people from Suriname because only a tiny fraction of the population would have any idea what he was talking about. But people from France, well, that would be much easier. Even if most of the country has never met someone from France, there are traditional stories, movies, TV shows, etc., that can be used to feed a stereotype. But if you grew up with Parisians, and your favorite musician was from Nice, and so forth, well the manufactured prejudice won't work. My $0.02. Cheers, Scott.
Post #327,774 by boxley 6/10/10 10:02:52 PM Reply	nit Leaders of powerful, worldwide organizations aren't usually gullible people, prone to believing ridiculous stories total bullshit. Hitler beleived it. Henry Ford believed it. Nixon certainly believed it, he even appointed a czar to remove jews from government. Occultists blame the fact that jews are a new design recent upon earth and resented by the older inhabitants. I have met the odd leader or two anf they are no smarter or less prejudiced than the average jamoke. thanx, bill
Post #327,777 by drook 6/10/10 10:07:58 PM Reply	Fairy nuff How about this: You may get to lead a powerful, worldwide organization while still being gullible and stupid. But you don't get there without also being ruthless and willing to practice situational ethics. -- Drew
Post #327,779 by boxley 6/10/10 10:09:14 PM Reply	I agree with that
Post #327,801 by crazy 6/11/10 4:15:05 AM Reply	I'm done It seems that Box covered most, but it seems you missed the core. This is an active useful tool for anyone in power to use as an excuse. Even if they don't believe, who cares. It works. Why are the priests in trouble for raping little boys right now? It's the Jew's fault, at least the Vatican tried. And just because they then disavowed it, that's just because the Jews made them. It was such an easy recent example, and rather than look at it an laugh, you instead thought: Yeah, maybe they didn't cause this one, but they are blamed so much for so many things, I wonder what they did to desearve this attitude. And that attitude is what makes me react in the EXTREME. Tell me, when did you stop beating your wife. How the fuck can someone who doesn't beat their wife answer that question? You can drop "It's the jew's fault" into any social situation that is currently in crisis, and you will have people nodding in agreement. And why is it the Jew's fault as opposed to anyone else? We killed Christ, and STILL refuse to accept him into our hearts, how dare we! The dietary laws ensured we would rarely be in a social situation that allowed easy intermixing. We drain the blood of children in our hidden rituals. We cause everyone else's financial suffering by our selfish actions. We are too damn smart and sneaky. We don't care about the major issues that you care about. We are different, have all the money, all the power, yet refuse to share it. We have a deal with the devil because we don't seem to die due to food poisoning (those dietary laws have a reason). We have those weird beards, silly ringlets, and odd clothes, so we are markedly different. Reading for yourself (rather than the person in charge) has been a cornerstone of our religion, so our literacy is much higher than the the surrounding group. I can go on and on, but what's the point? You started with thinking we have a persecution complex. You just seemed to realize we actually ARE persecuted, so now the question became, what have you done to deserve this persecution, since people would never be so fucking atrocious without a good reason.
Post #327,803 by boxley 6/11/10 7:51:09 AM Reply	last paragraph an excellent summary
Post #327,824 by drook 6/11/10 11:21:14 AM Reply	You finally answered me, thanks We killed Christ, and STILL refuse to accept him into our hearts, how dare we! You mentioned that before, but didn't make it clear that you think that's the central issue. I never suggested Jews did anything to deserve what's been done to them. My original question was: So assuming it's true that Jews are the most persecuted people in the world, and assuming it's not mostly a case of seeing what you're looking for ... why are Jews persecuted? I'm really interested in the answer, because I can't think of one. You responded six times before ever suggesting that it had anything to do with Jesus. Jesus! No Jesus, no peace. Then asked a question about the pedophile priest scandal. It looked like misdirection. I didn't get that you were saying that lack of belief in Jesus was the central issue. Because, you know, you didn't say that. Was this it? And yes, I'm aware of the many splits within the the cult of Jesus. You guys war with each other all the time. But it seems you can occasionally agree on a common enemy. Was that where you were making it clear what you thought was the central issue? If I'm supposed to pick up on hints and implications, then maybe you can pick up on my direct statement: People who hate Jews don't hate them because of blood libel; they believe the blood libel because they hate Jews. Maybe I'm wrong. You obviously think so, but it took this long for you to finally state your opinion clearly. When people believed the Earth was flat, the Earth hadn't done anything to "deserve" that belief. But there was a reason for it. Jews haven't done anything to deserve what they've gotten, but I assume there has to be a reason for it. And I've been trying as hard as I can to understand what that reason is. The blood libel stuff is so obviously crap that I find it hard to accept that intelligent people would believe it. Most of the so-called reasons are obviously crap. Can mass stupidity really stay this organized for this long? The reasons having to do with human nature make more sense to me: * Jews value thinking for yourself and standing apart from people who don't. Man is a herd animal, so outsiders and individualists will always be targets. * Jews have been successful enough for long enough -- because they value thinking for yourself? -- that there are a bunch of them all around the world. So when the local majority is looking for someone to beat up on, there's a good chance there are Jews around. Both points raised in this thread, by the way. And after talking around the issue for two days, you finally tell me what you think: It's because Jews killed Jesus. Maybe it's a combination of all three reasons, and many more besides. And maybe on a day-to-day basis it doesn't matter what the reason is: It happens and Jews need to defend themselves. But if the fighting is ever going to end, doesn't there need to be some common understanding of what the fight is actually about? -- Drew
Post #327,827 by malraux 6/11/10 11:34:50 AM Reply	Mass stupidity. Can mass stupidity really stay this organized for this long? Yes. And it doesn't even need organization. People are stupid. Mass stupidity is simply the emergent behavior. Regards, -scott Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson.
Post #327,829 by drook 6/11/10 11:35:43 AM Reply	But look at the Tea Party They have a different flavor of stupidity every time I see another story about them. -- Drew
Post #327,830 by malraux 6/11/10 11:39:55 AM Reply	But it's still stupidity, non? Stupid atoms are made up of all kinds of stupid quark flavors. Regards, -scott Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson.
Post #327,832 by folkert 6/11/10 12:04:44 PM Reply	You'd have fun at... one of the motorcycle forums I peruse and tag the Tea Party as the Tea Baggers. Pisses them RIGHT OFF.
Post #327,853 by crazy 6/11/10 8:04:29 PM Reply	Then you are as stupid as the people you are making fun of The blood libel stuff is so obviously crap that I find it hard to accept that intelligent people would believe it. Most of the so-called reasons are obviously crap. Can mass stupidity really stay this organized for this long? Can ignorance to documented history of the many times it was used to rile up the people on a killing spree be so easily maintained? When I told you to do some deep reading, I meant it. While your final judgement of the "real" why is reasonable, it does not speak to the horrors of what came before, and the reality that it can be repeated. Again and again. You discounted it. And went searching for something else, because it didn't fit into your world view. This is not a recent thing, it has many years of many generations to sink in as a core cultural attitude in the people who's grandparent's heard about it and had fun killing the jews in their town. After you read about 20 stories, of towns running out the Jews (and make no mistake, if they didn't leave, they'd be killed), and realize it barely scratches the surface, you may come back with a darker view on humanity, and what groups of people are capable of. Even if the neighbor didn't believe the story, it was still a good excuse to steal the land. So it gets retold again and again.
Post #327,855 by drook 6/11/10 10:38:31 PM Reply	There's a difference between stupid and ignorant I'll cop to ignorance. Hell, that's what this has been about (for me) from the beginning. I can't remember who made the reference to Jewish Sunday school, but I do remember the substance being that they were taught all the history of Jewish oppression. Guess what? I didn't go to Jewish Sunday school. Or any other day of the week either. I have no more reason to know the history of Jews than I do the history of Tamils. (Random group I came up with that I know next-to-nothing about.) That information was not in my head, so how could the understanding be there? You may think that, as a member of the majority culture, I'm damaged and can only learn by repetition. But next time I ask a question, maybe you can try a straight answer first and see if it gets through. -- Drew
Post #327,857 by Another Scott 6/11/10 11:12:24 PM Reply	(#30564) http://iwt.mikevital....iwt?postid=30564 (This has been an interesting thread. Sorry you got flamed.) Cheers, Scott.
Post #327,861 by boxley 6/12/10 12:16:31 AM Reply	you have no need to have a history of the jews tamils or yupiks. You only need to know that its nice to be sovreign and it sux if you dont.
Post #327,865 by crazy 6/12/10 8:14:20 AM 6/12/10 8:53:47 AM Reply	I apologize for the overreaction But you are somewhere in between, at least you were a couple of days ago. You were being purposefully ignorant, ignoring evidence, just because you couldn't believe people are either so stupid or so evil. I gave you a method of solving your ignorance. You read a bit, no where near enough,and then restated the cornerstone of your attitude, which is simply and easily demonstrably incorrect. So, at what point does lazy ignorance become stupidity? I just went to the Wiki page here: http://en.wikipedia....ibel_against_Jews See those little areas that hightlight when your cursor passes over them? Start clicking. Don't ask me for my personal viewpoint, make your own. But try to make it from as much material as possible. From one of your original posts on the matter: http://iwt.mikevital....iwt?postid=30640 Is her premise factually correct? Do the majority of the Jews currently in Israel have roots that go back before 1948, or do the majority come from people who moved in after the creation of the modern state of Israel? I honestly don't know the answer, and wouldn't know where to look to find out. . But if she's correct that most of the Jews in Israel moved in after 1948, then she has a point in calling them occupiers. Dude, you really wrote that. I honestly don't know the answer, and wouldn't know where to look to find out. . Um, we have the most incredible information resource available, to make our own judgments. It starts with Google and goes many directions. You have to be willing to spend a couple of days of reading, and then judge the correctness of what you read. That is why you need to read multiple viewpoints of the same stories where possible. Which before the internet was practically impossible unless you were smart, rich and lived in major city next to a library. And BTW: I don't support a large amount of what Israel does. But I KNOW, if there is no Israel, then most of the people in Israel would probably be dead. If their actions were judged against the actions of their neighbors, they'd be f'ing saints. But they are not, they are judged by people comfy across the world, against a backdrop of cultural dislike. Maybe you simply don't like to read and thought you could ask the IGM and someone would answer you, but it is doubtful. No matter what you may have learned in this thread, it barely scratches the surface of 2 thousand years of being hunted. Remember the old Saturday night tag line: Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition! Do you get a chuckle out of the skit? Not me, and I'm a lightweight on paranoia and historical perspective. Does it make me angry? Not at 1st. No, it makes me incredibly saddened. And fearful for the next one. A bit more thought and the terror and the revulsion pop up. Anger comes, but only if I can find a focus for the anger. And people deserving of the anger are usually out of reach from me, so I simply have to accept it. Have you ever been told something that drops a rock over your heart? The moment you realize that the people surrounding you are possible of such incredible horror? Oh yeah, just now. But you don't have to worry, when the moment comes, they won't be killing you. They'll just ask you to ignore them when they are coming after me. And you may or may not have accepted it as a reality. Now look on the flip side. The horror is out there, and there is a segment of the population that simply doesn't believe it. And if they don't, they then want to know why it is out there. And want the answer in a few moments. Edited by crazy June 12, 2010, 08:53:47 AM EDT Expand All History
Post #327,869 by crazy 6/12/10 9:26:51 AM Reply	Also, this entire interaction with me was a lesson in Jewish thought, at least mine and how I feel the ONLY way to learn is to either experience something or research it yourself. A single viewpoint is simply that, a single viewpoint. And single reference can be bullshit. So you need the EXPERIENCE of RESEARCHING for yourself. There is no single thing I could have answered, at least that you'd accept. While the Christians didn't like us because we killed Christ (according to them), the Romans before them didn't like us as well. We didn't believe in being killed and taken as slaves, and we fought to the death. Oh, actually, I did give the single thing. Early on. WE DON'T KNEEL. TO ANYONE. TO ANY KING. TO ANY GOD. TO ANY PRIEST. WE DON'T KNEEL. We don't allow ANY entity ownership of our being, our identity, simply because someone told us to. When you were a little kid, and you BELIEVED, part of that belief was totally giving yourself over to the God and Church that you were a part of. You BELIEVED, and it made it OK to lose your identity. It's just like being in love. And to cap it off, the only way you are supposed to feel this level of joy is in a church sanctioned marriage. F'em. Anything they told you at that point was because they LOVED you. Right? That was the line. We don't simply accept whatever line of bullshit we are being fed is the truth. We research it. Me trying to get you to figure this out for yourself is about as core to my being as anything else.
Post #327,871 by drook 6/12/10 10:50:06 AM Reply	"Go look it up" isn't helpful You told me to look up "Jewish blood libel". On the first page were links to forums.catholic.com where someone linked to a book by a Jewish writer saying that yes, there was a Jewish sect that had sacrificed Jewish children. There was also a link to jewwatch.com. I guess you can figure out where they're coming from. Should I have believed them? Yes, I spent some time following links, but I can only read ranting for so long. Obviously there are some people who really hate Jews. That doesn't make them accurate historical sources. Does it make blood libel the primary accusation against Jews? I can't tell. As for the population statistics, I searched on "when did Jews move to Israel". I got no useful numbers on the first three pages of links, but plenty more ranting. I didn't think to use the term "demographics", but Box found the numbers. I could spend a year doing research and maybe come close the amount of information about Jews that you've accumulated in your lifetime. But I won't. Understanding is important to me, but it's not the central issue in my life. I understand what you're saying about research, but it's not the only way to learn. No one can research everything. We all have to pick and choose and, to some extent, rely on the opinions of others we trust for the rest. So I don't subscribe to your belief that research and personal experience are the ONLY way to learn. I also don't accept outrageous claims about important issues just because I heard it from the right guy with the right funny hat. If I don't know, I'll try to find someone I trust who does know, and I'll ask them. If what they say doesn't make sense, I'll ask more questions and/or go follow up on what they've said. You know, like I've been doing for three days with you. And we're still using the same words, but meaning different things. To you "assimilate" means "kneel". If I moved to Israel, and spent the years of research and converted, I would have assimilated into that culture. Is that kneeling? I heard a story once of a nice Jewish boy who said, "Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's, render unto God that which is God's." Yeah, I know, wrong book. But that was written when Jesus was still a Jew, not a Christian. I read that as a lesson about assimilation. Accept that parts of the majority culture that aren't central to your identity, but keep the parts that matter. I don't think that's a good idea because it's in the bible. I think it's one of many good ideas that happens to be in the bible, alongside a whole bunch of mythology, misogyny and hypocrisy. -- Drew
Post #327,875 by boxley 6/12/10 2:57:07 PM Reply	here is a single page that covers most of it http://remember.org/...ot.classical.html
Post #327,876 by Another Scott 6/12/10 3:30:15 PM Reply	Thanks very much.
Post #327,878 by drook 6/12/10 5:10:27 PM Reply	Yes, that's what I was looking for You might be surprised (or not) that in 7 years of attending Catholic school I never heard any of that. -- Drew
Post #327,880 by boxley 6/12/10 5:40:14 PM Reply	not surprised at all catholic school is about catholics, not others.
Post #327,885 by crazy 6/12/10 9:47:19 PM Reply	Good list Now I know what to point to the next time.
Post #327,886 by Ashton 6/12/10 9:53:32 PM Reply	Concise ergo Nice. While I was aware of maybe 80%, the chronology and intelligent organization makes some of the 20% worth further exploration. (I was not anti-religio as a tyke. While my mater possessed a sort of subliminal acceptance of prevailing Xian 'concepts of their God' -- she had the Good Sense not to try to point me (nor allow any proxy, as at the boarding schools, to inculcate -- beyond the 'fact' of there being periodic religio-infused assemblies there.) Consequently, as adult matters + abilities began to supersede thoughts derived from the usual treadmill of school-directed, test-oriented plots -- I came by my anti-corporate-religion decision entirely through observation, reading and then deciding from experience. But, as crazy has been emphasizing, repeating when it does not seem to penetrate enough -- grokking the Jewish situational-history requires some considerable experience of Real History ==> that which requires (also) the delving critically into one's local, Official/National-sanctioned and Bowdlerized versions: ever to earn usage of that Real- modifier, in any aspect of the whole. Thus ... With the caveat succinctly stated by Mike re. overall performance of the extant government of Israel / their peculiar blindspots regarding ever Noticing the parallels between their employment of Power and ... that Usage which they have ever Fled-from: I claim to comprehend sufficiently 'how it came to be' that Jews have been such a handy target for deflection of attention from any pol's current tight-spot. The 'kneeling' metaphor is necessary and sufficient to recognize the absolute necessity of there being Jewish Territory somewhere on what's left of this planet. (For me this has 0 to do with any concepts of covenants with supernaturals or other meta-Real Estate transactions.) It is simply necessary to protect these non-kneelers from every other brand-name of One True God-worshippers. Let's SomeOne! -- get bus(ier) holding up a Mirror to the Israeli gummint Et Al, before some next action is taken to be so odious that even supporters [of the above, generally] join the brainless, slavering mobs with shouted simplicities One More Time. But with nukes. <rest case ... for 2x4 upside heads of those myopic and amnesiac solons.> I could almost see voting for Palin in 2012 on the grounds that this sorry ratfucking excuse for a republic, this savage, smirking, predatory empire deserves her. Bring on the Rapture, motherfuckers! -- via RC
Post #327,887 by Another Scott 6/12/10 10:53:31 PM Reply	More at Sullivan: "It's much funnier in Arabic" http://andrewsulliva...-mistake-ctd.html Cheers, Scott.
Post #327,892 by boxley 6/12/10 11:59:44 PM Reply	great, now I have to find an allen king clip not this one, the hemeneh, hemenah one http://www.youtube.c...tch?v=eXwqoblFlEU great, no link but essentially the same. As a young comic dishwasher watching the old time comics doing standup the best joke was half english half yiddish. I cant explain it well enough by writing. Same effect tho, doesnt translate well into straight english. RIP Alen, saw him live and it was a great experience thanx, bill
Post #327,895 by Another Scott 6/13/10 8:27:52 AM Reply	:-) That's a funny clip. I haven't been able to find what you're looking for, but I did find this - http://crazymotion.n...Irb9fNRrMjAy.html :-D Cheers, Scott.
Post #327,716 by crazy 6/10/10 11:29:47 AM Reply	Oh, I do I take responsibility to not kneel before the next conquerer. So what. Do I take responsibility for every waco action of someone who is "related" to me by religion? NO! WTF is wrong with you? So, how's that child molestation thing going on around your parish? And if not currently/locally, I'm sure it would be easy enough to find an example somewhere close to you. I would expect you to be very interested, because in your world view it is your job to defend it. Oh, I know. It is a vile persecution by the Zionist controlled newspapers, right? I know I heard that out of the official Vatican mouthpiece for a while. You guys are blaming the Jews for the bad things that happen to priests after they are caught molesting kids. Again, WTF is wrong with you? This is the culture that you want us to join, to offer up our kids into it's care? If we just stopped fighting and assimilate, then we won't have any more problems, right? Again, WTF is wrong with you?
Post #327,726 by drook 6/10/10 1:25:19 PM Reply	What values are you preserving? I define "culture" as a set of generally-agreed-upon values. I believe assimilation can mean that some of the values of the minority group are absorbed into the majority group. I would think a minority group would like for their values to be transmitted to the majority. What Jewish values do you think other cultures should adopt? Do you think resistance to those values is the source of conflict? For instance, some cultures believe sharia law says that a woman should be stoned to death for the sin of being raped. I disagree with that value. If I were forced into a culture that tried to impose that value on me, I'd be willing to fight over it. In France there's debate around Muslim women wearing head coverings. People are debating whether that's a value worth fighting over. But I keep asking why Jews are persecuted, and all I keep hearing is "because we refuse to be assimilated". So the cultural value that's worth fighting to the death over is the willingness to fight to the death? I know that's wrong. So what are the values implicit in "being a Jew" that people are fighting over? What is it that Jews are fighting for, other than "being Jewish"? Please give me an answer that doesn't sound like "cultural purity", because I'm Irish, Italian, Scottish, Welsh, German, and probably a few other things. I don't have a strong racial or religious identity, and find arguments for purity both offensive and frightening. -- Drew
Post #327,742 by crazy 6/10/10 4:34:08 PM Reply	The right not to be killed Dude, you are not getting it. You have classic majority think. You have no f'ing clue.
Post #327,745 by drook 6/10/10 5:06:47 PM Reply	I must not be asking this clearly enough If a single Jew were so thoroughly assimilated that no one knew he was a Jew, no one would kill him for being a Jew. Can we agree on that? Now, I'm not suggesting that anyone should do that, or that anyone should be required to do that, I'm just setting a baseline for the question. At the other end of the scale is a Hasidic rabbi who is killed for being a Jew. Now the questions. First: In the case of the rabbi killed for being a Jew, what exactly do you think motivates the person who kills him? I'm stipulating that he is killed "because he's a Jew", but I don't understand the motivation to kill someone because of their race, nationality or religion. (Being Jewish can mean any of those depending on context, right?) So what I'm asking -- what I've been asking all along -- is why do you think some people are willing to do that? There are lots of cultures that have been "outsiders". If someone wants to kill outsiders there are plenty to pick from. Why are Jews so often the target? This isn't a trap question, I really want to know the answer, because it doesn't make sense to me. So either it's not actually true, or there's a reason that I don't understand. Second question: If we again stipulate that someone is willing to kill people because they're Jews, somewhere between fully assimilated and Hasidic rabbi there is some level of assimilation that won't trigger whatever is the impulse I'm asking about with my first question. You're not Orthodox, so you are apparently willing to give up some of the values they hold. But apparently there are some values you still hold, because giving those values up you equate with "kneeling to the conqueror". What values are those? What is it besides "being Jewish" that makes assimilation unacceptable? The reason I'm asking is not because I think I know how people should act. I just think that if millions of people are at war over something, then I'd like to know what that something is. You say I don't get it. Dude, I've been saying that since the beginning. Yes, I have classic majority think. I am part of the majority and have been my whole life. I. Don't. Get. It. Please, explain it to me. -- Drew
Post #327,747 by boxley 6/10/10 6:04:48 PM Reply	how about a different question Is there going to be a piece of dirt on this planet where only jews can decide to kill jews? Cureently there is, a lot of reasonable majority folks think that the answer to that is no and are doing their best to insure that jews may only live with the grace of an intolerant majority. Why do they think that?
Post #327,751 by drook 6/10/10 6:58:38 PM Reply	As long as there are X and not-X in the world ... ... some X will try to kill some not-X. What you're asking for is a place with no Jews. They have a word for that: Ethnic cleansing. -- Drew
Post #327,753 by crazy 6/10/10 7:16:28 PM Reply	No, it's called rule of law As the majority, you see the problem as someone else's, and the choice doesn't include them surviving.
Post #327,760 by drook 6/10/10 8:17:31 PM Reply	I'm responding to Box's question "...where only jews can decide to kill jews" -- Drew
Post #327,769 by boxley 6/10/10 9:51:58 PM Reply	im not wanting to dismantle israel since that currently is the only place that jews decide why and when jews get killed. I am asking why the majority thinks that should be changed? You are part of that majority so I was asking you why people think that way. Not to kill all jews, just not allow them to have their own nation state and be dependent on the good will of the majority to stay alive? That is what I am asking.
Post #327,772 by drook 6/10/10 10:01:28 PM Reply	Show me where I said that Or are you asking me as the spokesman for the majority? Fine, I'll take a shot. (Note that I don't agree with any of this, but it's an easy argument to make.) Jews wanted their own land, because they were persecuted everywhere else. They got their own land, and they act no better than anyone else had. Besides, we fought WWII and kicked Germany's ass. If you were all just going to leave Germany anyway, why did we have to fight a war first? Easy, cheap, lazy thinking. But seems compelling to someone who doesn't know the history and doesn't care to look into it. Which is why I am asking. Because I want to understand. -- Drew
Post #327,775 by boxley 6/10/10 10:04:42 PM Reply	never said you believe that however you are asking a minority why the majority hates them? Perhaps they are too busy living and avoiding the majority to really care why, they just want to live
Post #327,800 by mhuber 6/11/10 4:07:46 AM Reply	We didn't kick Hitler's ass to rescue the Jews We did that to stop him conquering the world. Rescuing the remaining Jews was a nice side effect. The historical record on WW II is even clearer than Lincoln's many statements that he was preserving the Union, not freeing the slaves. --------------------------------------- I think it's perfectly clear we're in the wrong band. (Tori Amos)
Post #327,770 by Silverlock 6/10/10 9:59:51 PM Reply	You're over thinking it. Jews have been persecuted, pogromed, and final solutioned (except when convenient for business) pretty much as long as we can recall. It may have started because they were easily identifiable as "other" and thus handy for shifting blame or appeasing rabble or whatever. But it has become a cultural thing. As Zero would say, Tradition! Passed down through families. You ask for a reason for hate. I think you must remain unsatisfied. This is in no way a defense of the nation of Israel. Its leaders are abysmal, its policies abhorrent and its influence on US policy is ludicrous. I think the single most compelling piece of evidence for global warming is that Fox News viewers think it's a hoax.
Post #327,776 by boxley 6/10/10 10:05:50 PM Reply	+1 on both statements
Post #327,717 by crazy 6/10/10 11:37:36 AM Reply	Oh, and quoting the bible really doesn't do it for me I don't give a rat's ass about what it says, either old or new "testament". The psychotic ignorant politically motivated ramblings, slapped together, by a bunch of crazy old men over the course of hundreds of years really don't strike me a valid launching point on how to run one's life. And the next thousand years of politically driven interpretation don't help much. But then again, I'm sure you bible "scholars" have a wonderful time picking and choosing the passages on which to base your next decision.
Post #327,718 by boxley 6/10/10 12:02:40 PM Reply	you want shrimp with that?
Post #327,836 by Ashton 6/11/10 1:07:21 PM Reply	Re: Yup -- Lovely compilation.. Worthy of annotation, IMO. The Annotated Crazy?? soon to be a major cinema attraction. The pithiest parts could be said other ways; matter of opinion which prose form might flow the smoothest; some examples come to mind: [cf. George Carlin for, as a humorist par excellence -- his highly polished, practiced and honed "skits?" -- (hardly..) are the epitome of al-punte concision] 1) Murica and the Puritans: THAT is the enviro in which most-everyone here was incubated. Whether premeditated or via just typ. Murican mental sloth -- the main Murican metaphors function with these aspects: a) (hardly ever..) Question Authority. 'Live' the mythos as-if you Believed it Literally. This may fall under the rubric ~~ [cf. the old Moyers series of interviews with ____ Joseph Campbell, released only just after his death]: b) If'n ya don't Understand what a simile.. an analogy.. a metaphor or A PARABLE! ARE ??? You begin as a tyke, sorting-out incomprehensible, unlikely.. (or just plain-Impossible) Things. For the longest time. Maybe until you meet T. Pratchett's DEATH (when, at least -- you expire into a moment of pure wry.) c) Having created these hoary, Vengeful, Martinet God-icons (Hey.. Old or New 'testaments', Sutras, Upanishads, Vedas etc.) and failing to notice the mental-aberration of a Supreme (with so little self-Sufficiency or emotional adulthood) that She NEEDS >you< to tell Her! how Adorable Always She Is -- always it is forgotten that Every Word, committee-selected, that survived these artfully-illuminated screeds: were written by 'man'; that is to say (also, in all Western climes) by fucking sociopathic, Power-freaky MEN. ie Misogyny Rulez (as in the Eastern ones with their similarly once-human-Godlike creations.) d) So rarely is it Noticed the simple Fact-by-Inspection: God has been molded in our conflicted, oft-obtuse, always arrogant and sanctimonious Image. qed 2) The World and its Variants: THAT is the super-set under which the Murican aberrations {customized} inculcate stuff into their helpless children. In the super-set: with sometimes less-silly, less-contradictory, less execrably-vicious Attributes of the godhead. There are some variants even with Â wisdom-extensions, e.g. a) In those whose (written-only, not oral) root-language is Sanskrit (the Only language invented solely for discussion of metaphysical concepts) the opening prelude is -- *The Absolute* is without attributes (!)** ie She/He/It MAY NOT be said to Â 1) Hate the queers She made 2) Need Your Love (in prose or pop-music) 3) 'Likes ___ Hates___ Prefers___ {Anything} aka cha. cha. cha. 4) Just append your list ___ here. b) Not needed -- if a one can't Grok-to-Fullness >> a) << -- the rest would go ^Zoom^ anyway. [/ glossary of given-absurdities, viral in mist who ever were tykes, at some point] So then, your comments appear (to me) to be of similar ilk, and your style would likely appeal to many more than would mine (I can live with that.) Storytelling is always more effective than a series of revelations, assertions / (idiocies-if-they-'smart') Â of the baldfaced kind. I was trying for brevity here. It may be that the WHY ?!? of consistent Jew-bashing, Jew-baiting IS self evident (if any of the above is.) As aberrant- describes the psyche of at least a plurality of homo-saps today (compounded by inculcated misinformation, disinformation and just plain sloth) -- within the adolescent psyche (cf. their daily uniforms, clustering into clans, dissing the ones not-in Our clan, etc.): Jews are insulting! (because, not only will they Not contribute to arguments about the number of angels who can fit int a Higgs boson: they are poo-poo-heads; they seem [projection: they ARE] smugly superior.) Their 'insularity' Proves That, in the poo-poo-head-calling mind/light.) Or, at least, my Sigma-experience has taught me this little-much. So far. (But, as I have yet to achiever full-consciousness thus Illumination Â well, you know: everyone has to figure out the enigma For Themselves.) So Â never mind. WFT do I Know-fershure? It's all maya until a one Sees that It's. all. maya. PS: [folksier story-teller mode On] The most blindingly-Brilliant person I ever encountered (Jewish but evidently completely unpreoccupied with those roots - at least toward others; this Other in particular) -- trained as a mathematician and passed the Bar but never practiced law, and much Else for such a brief life. A year or so after his untimely death (for having too-long ignored incipient diabetes and then dying of the inattention) I spent a blissful several weeks in company with his widow, in a strange furrin land (UK). In between our explorations, upon which I shall not elaborate, I learned quite more about his unUsual life and accomplishments. He too, would have pissed-off many a bumpkin, upon any pointed provocation -- as he had no time for fools. (And yes, I had to earn the ~~maybe-not Complete-fool acceptance before I could hear some of his stories. His mate filled-in a bit more that he would never casually 'discuss'. [/story time] Carrion I could almost see voting for Palin in 2012 on the grounds that this sorry ratfucking excuse for a republic, this savage, smirking, predatory empire deserves her. Bring on the Rapture, motherfuckers! -- via RC
Post #327,663 by boxley 6/9/10 6:51:36 PM Reply	refuse to assimilate? Hoke hay white boy :-) here is a link from the northern neighbor http://usredtory.wor...ty-vs-inequality/ For the Settler Tribe to call for the unilateral dismantling of Native Peoples is indeed racist, in fact genocidal, whether it stems from ignorance or intentional malice. I prefer to believe most of it does stem from ignorance, though culpable on the part of Settler education systems, which teach Settlers all kinds of things in all kinds of depth and detail, but not these facts which are fundamental to the very existence and founding of their States. Consider if the Honourable MP had instead called for the absorption of CanadaÂs Jews into its Christian Churches Â or its Hindus, Muslims, atheists, etc. Or for the abolition of, say, Catholic schools and colleges in Canada Â ÂNo more special rights for Catholics; old Churches have no relevance in modern times.Â And with taxpayer-funded mailings, yet! ISTM religion is a helpful analogue to Native sovereignty and rights and ÂprivilegesÂ and existence. ItÂs not just Âpolitical correctnessÂ that prevents him from doing so, but the legal freedoms increasingly recognized by liberal democracy Â and entrenched in CanadaÂs constitution by 1982′s Charter of Rights and Freedoms Â the same constitution that now explicitly guarantees the Aboriginal and Treaty Rights of CanadaÂs Indians, Inuit, and Metis. And considering the evidence that inflammatory public speech can tend to incite violence against the targets of that speech, the MP might even be held liable.
Post #327,666 by Another Scott 6/9/10 8:18:31 PM Reply	It obviously goes back a long time... In America, I think it mainly goes back to religion. E.g. Peter Stuyvesant (early governor of New Amsterdam) really didn't like them. http://www.pbs.org/w.../documents_1.html The first group of Jewish settlers in North America were 23 refugees from the Portuguese reconquest of Recife, Brazil, who arrived in New Amsterdam (present day New York City) in 1654. The colony's governor, Peter Stuyvesant, greeted them coldly and wished to expell them. He engaged in this pungent correspondence with the Dutch West India Company, overseers of the New Netherlands colony, seeking permission to eject the refugees. [...] HTH a little. Cheers, Scott.
Post #327,749 by mhuber 6/10/10 6:41:53 PM Reply	Is it the wide spread? I wonder if Jews are so widely persecuted because they are in so many places? They are the other co-existing culture in so very many places. So many opportunities for persecution. If you go to a random spot on the planet and punch the first person who doesn't look like the majority in that spot, chances are you punched a Jew. To put it another way, the Nazis didn't persecute Native Americans. It wasn't because they liked them. ------- As to co-existence being not a supportable option, are there any single-culture nations that accomplish anything? Prime example: Spain with Jews - world power; Spain post 1492 (when they evicted the Jews) - punch line. Costa Rica, the only Latin American country with no Indians (they vanished completely before the Europeans arrived) is a beautiful, peaceful land. You would not believe the place, just stunning, every environment except arctic within a day's drive, more than half the land (I was told) is National Park. And actual trained grown-up cops with side-arms instead of army boys with machine guns like most of Central America. But isn't really doing anything at all. The United States, probably the most co-existence-based nation ever, not to be all "we're number one" but we are one hell of a vibrant, productive, interesting country. We landed on the goddamn Moon, ya know? Everybody goes to our movies, buys our crap or at least Chinese crap with our brands. Co-existence is messy, but the alternative seems to me to be stagnation. Hell, I bet Great Britain would never have been important if the Angles and Saxons had been able to get along. --------------------------------------- I think it's perfectly clear we're in the wrong band. (Tori Amos)
Post #327,636 by crazy 6/9/10 2:55:24 PM Reply	I know EXACTLY the moment I've experienced it. Multiple times. A large group of people looked at me, old and young, male and female, some directly, some out of the corner of their eyes. Sometimes they glare, other times they whisper back and forth. It's a very simple thing that I do. I go to a church and do not kneel. I do not kneel a lot, as they pop up and down, so it is more and more obvious as the service goes on. Sure, there are many people who simply don't care. But there are a huge amount that do, and make it obvious. Do NOT kneel. To their GOD! How DARE I! For the last several thousand years, that refusal resulted in death, torture, and slavery. Nowadays, they just beat us up. Mostly.

Welcome to IWETHEY!