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New Also, aren't the users *choosing* to use a broken product?


Peter
[link|http://www.no2id.net/|Don't Let The Terrorists Win]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
New Same question I offered Todd
Name me a non-broken browser that is available today and is useable on mainstream websites.

Thanks,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
New Firefox, Opera, Safari, Camino


Peter
[link|http://www.no2id.net/|Don't Let The Terrorists Win]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
New Firefox, Safari, and Camino at least are broken
Firefox: crashes, CSS bugs, weird memory leaks
Safari: eats all of the CPU on my Mini occasionally
Camino: so many different ways of broken it's not usable
Regards,

-scott anderson

"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
New Firefox and Safari
Kick IE 6's sorry little ass all over the web when it comes to actually implementing CSS and minimizing leakage.

So I don't know what issues you're specifically referencing, but IE LEAKS LIKE A BLOODY SEIVE (Dynamic Update - AJAX to you - requests are allocating about 8M of ram each in IE but only 4M are getting reclaimed) and doesn't even implement the bloody :hover pseudo class properly thus requiring bits of javascript to hack around it. I could go on, but for my money Firefox is the best browser on the web, Safari is second despite a number of wacky implementation decisions (all of which we've been able to work around once we figured out the "philosophy" of the thing.

Camino I haven't tried in forever but it should be about like Firefox.




"Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect"   --Mark Twain

"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them."   --Albert Einstein

"This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses."   --George W. Bush
New Firefox dumps core fairly regularly for me
I don't dispute that it is better than IE. But that isn't saying much.

According to [link|http://secunia.com/search/?search=firefox|http://secunia.com/s...h/?search=firefox], all that has been reported recently are denial of service attacks. But just over 3 months ago a whole ton of "execute arbitrary code" bugs were found in firefox, and I don't doubt that there are plenty more.

Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
New Firefox/Deerpark 1.5 beta weird for me on MEPIS.
I installed the latest SimplyMEPIS beta (SimplyMEPIS_3.4-2.rc1.iso)on my T41. Firefox/Deerpark 1.5 beta acts very strangely:

1) The pageup/pagedown keys don't work (it acts as if it goes pagedown then immediately back to the top of the page).
[edit:] This problem seems to be resolved. I was trying to setup the desktop at 1400x1050 and part of the setup was stuck at 1024x768. Changing everything to 1024x768 has fixed this problem. (Apparently I need to edit some config files to get 1400x1050 working...) [/edit]

2) It seems to have no DNS cacheing at all. Every request to z involves about a 15 s delay while it looks up z's address, then there's a long "waiting".
[edit:] This problem seems to be gone as well. ? [/edit]

3) Konquerer seems to act a little better, so it seems to be something about Deerpark. [edit:] Konqueror is working fine now too. [/edit]

(I thought I updated to the released version of Firefox, but I can't seem to find it on the machine.)

Both of these things with Firefox are probably more related to some sort of MEPIS networking/X settings, but I've not had these types of problems with Firefox on Win2k.

Just another datapoint...

Cheers,
Scott.
(Who's going to try the latest release of SimplyMEPIS, then may try Kubuntu. One of his goals for 2006 is to move as much as possible to Linux even if that means running WinforLin/etc. in Linux. [edit:] SimplyMEPIS 3.4-2.rc1 seems worth sticking with at the moment. [/edit])
Expand Edited by Another Scott Dec. 25, 2005, 05:11:18 PM EST
New Completely missing the point.
Yes, Firefox and Safari are better. Yes, IE sucks massive donkey dongs. That doesn't mean that Firefox and Safari aren't broken as well. Just in different, lesser ways.

There are definitely more issues to work around in IE, but I've had to work around issues in Firefox too (try hiding/showing multiple stacked iframes sometime).

Firefox may be the best on the web, but it is still broken.

Camino is much worse than Firefox. Crap-ass port. I couldn't use it for more than a few minutes before stumbling across a bug or a crash.
Regards,

-scott anderson

"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
New Yep, I don't get your point
Browser ranking in order of suckyness of 3 leading browsers (which make up about 98% of traffic) is IE 6, Safari, Firefox.

So?

Of these, two are making improvements.

One is stuck in time and it happens to be the suckyest one. So eliminating support for it can only be a good thing.




"Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect"   --Mark Twain

"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them."   --Albert Einstein

"This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses."   --George W. Bush
New Re: Yep, I don't get your point
You said earlier: "If your browser crashes, you need a new one."

Ben said (later on): "Name me a non-broken browser that is available today and is useable on mainstream websites."

Peter said: "Firefox, Opera, Safari, Camino"

And I said: "Firefox, Safari, and Camino at least are broken"

The point being that there aren't ANY browsers that aren't broken. So telling someone they need something new because the old crashes means that no one will be using anything.
Regards,

-scott anderson

"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
New So I should probably add something to my webpage
like "Your browser has exceeded this site's minimum suckativity index. Please download a less sucky browser - here are some suggestions".



"Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect"   --Mark Twain

"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them."   --Albert Einstein

"This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses."   --George W. Bush
New What Scott said
As for Opera, [link|http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=opera+dhtml&btnG=Google+Search|http://www.google.co...tnG=Google+Search] pretty quickly gave me [link|http://www.jwweb.com/20010824.html|http://www.jwweb.com/20010824.html], which talks about how Opera doesn't fully support DHTML positioning using JavaScript. (I had remembered people complaining about DHTML support within Opera, which is why I searched on that.) With Ajax becoming more and more popular, that will become a bigger issue.

But even if it is useable, the question is whether it is good in the sense that Todd said. A glance at [link|http://secunia.com/search/?search=Opera|http://secunia.com/search/?search=Opera] tells me it is not. Just glancing at the last 2 months of reports, I see 5 security vulnerabilities, 3 of which could wind up executing arbitrary code on the user system. (One is entirely Opera's fault, one is due to an OS/Opera interaction, one Flash/Opera.)

That makes it not good in my books. And the ungoodness would be obvious if a competitor set out, as Microsoft did, and deliberately tried to find the weak spots and make sure that lots of websites tickle them.

Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
New Epiphany
===

Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
New I haven't used it yet but...
It combines the Mozilla engine and Gnome. I'll bet that it is subject to the problems that I've had with both.

Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
New Well I feel silly
I thought he meant he saw where you were coming from, as in "I had an epiphany".
Darrell Spice, Jr.                      [link|http://spiceware.org/gallery/ArtisticOverpass|Artistic Overpass]\n[link|http://www.spiceware.org/|SpiceWare] - We don't do Windows, it's too much of a chore
New And now I feel silly as well
You're right that he could well have meant that, and I didn't even think of it!

Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
New Wheee! cha-ching cha-ching
You're both right, and both wrong. I intended both interpretations as scecondary meanings, but more importantly I was expecting Peter to jump in with a rant about how it's not only cack, but it's cack that took too long to get to its current state of cack-ful-ness.
===

Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
New LOL - don't feel quite so silly anymore
Darrell Spice, Jr.            Trendy yet complex\nPeople seek me out - though they're not sure why\n[link|http://spiceware.org/gallery/ArtisticOverpass|Artistic Overpass]                      [link|http://www.spiceware.org/|SpiceWare]
     Graphing in Javascript using Canvas Tag - (tuberculosis) - (82)
         Nifty, but next to useless, unfortunately. - (admin) - (8)
             Only if you're supporting broken browsers - (tuberculosis) - (7)
                 Er... - (admin) - (6)
                     Yes, this is a toy - (tuberculosis) - (5)
                         What about SVG? - (ChrisR) - (4)
                             Its dead, Jim. - (tuberculosis) - (3)
                                 It's dead on the web. - (pwhysall)
                                 Standardization process is broken - (JayMehaffey) - (1)
                                     Have you ever served on standards committee? - (tuberculosis)
         And it crashes older browsers.... - (Simon_Jester) - (72)
             Cool! Makes you wanna upgrade! - (tuberculosis) - (71)
                 No. Makes me think the web designer is a jackass. -NT - (ben_tilly) - (69)
                     If a browser crashes - its not the designer's fault - (tuberculosis) - (68)
                         Strongly disagree - (ben_tilly) - (67)
                             I think we have different quality expectations of software - (tuberculosis) - (66)
                                 I seem to recall... - (Yendor) - (1)
                                     If it's valid HTML/CSS, that's a browser bug. - (pwhysall)
                                 Agree on the crash thing. - (pwhysall)
                                 I agree with you about well-written software - (ben_tilly) - (62)
                                     Not blaming the users per se - (tuberculosis) - (61)
                                         cf. Ada - (jb4)
                                         member of a working group now, know what ya mean -NT - (boxley)
                                         You might not be blaming the users... - (ben_tilly) - (58)
                                             problem is you are all not willing to use microsoft only -NT - (boxley) - (1)
                                                 The right analogy for that is... - (ben_tilly)
                                             Or the user is enabling bad coders - (tuberculosis) - (55)
                                                 Suppose I'm a user using an old browser... - (ben_tilly) - (54)
                                                     By this logic we should all stick to html 3.2 forever - (tuberculosis) - (53)
                                                         Go back to the root conversation - (ben_tilly) - (52)
                                                             And it hasn't been touched in over 5 years - (tuberculosis) - (49)
                                                                 In other words the 1% figure was a red herring - (ben_tilly) - (48)
                                                                     I'm not the one doing the punishing in this scenario - (tuberculosis) - (4)
                                                                         You're not? - (ben_tilly) - (3)
                                                                             One user's pain is another's pleasure - (tuberculosis) - (2)
                                                                                 Far too often... - (ben_tilly) - (1)
                                                                                     He should not have to -NT - (broomberg)
                                                                     Is high-bandwidth streaming video a punishment? - (drewk) - (22)
                                                                         If you want to limit yourself... do that. - (folkert) - (18)
                                                                             No, they're being punsished - (drewk) - (17)
                                                                                 ICLRPDs. (new thread) - (Another Scott)
                                                                                 I wonder how Ben feels about stations - (tuberculosis) - (3)
                                                                                     Seems the US government is shoving this one - (folkert) - (1)
                                                                                         IIRC - (jb4)
                                                                                     I think that the switch is fine... - (ben_tilly)
                                                                                 No, it is not punishing them. - (folkert) - (11)
                                                                                     I think you summarized my position pretty well - (ben_tilly) - (10)
                                                                                         Firefox is a 5MB download that works well on older computers -NT - (pwhysall) - (9)
                                                                                             Not on my old system - (ben_tilly) - (8)
                                                                                                 Re: Not on my old system - (pwhysall) - (7)
                                                                                                     Is there a reason? - (ben_tilly) - (6)
                                                                                                         "Hu-mour". -NT - (admin) - (5)
                                                                                                             Can't be. It isn't funny. -NT - (ben_tilly) - (4)
                                                                                                                 Beg to differ - (drewk)
                                                                                                                 Maybe to *you* it isn't. - (admin) - (2)
                                                                                                                     of course they are misfunctioning, he's a father now -NT - (boxley) - (1)
                                                                                                                         Agreed - (broomberg)
                                                                         No - (ben_tilly) - (2)
                                                                             Nobody? - (drewk) - (1)
                                                                                 People aren't doing that? - (ben_tilly)
                                                                     I disagree - (pwhysall) - (1)
                                                                         Yes, the product is broken. But... - (ben_tilly)
                                                                     Also, aren't the users *choosing* to use a broken product? -NT - (pwhysall) - (17)
                                                                         Same question I offered Todd - (ben_tilly) - (16)
                                                                             Firefox, Opera, Safari, Camino -NT - (pwhysall) - (9)
                                                                                 Firefox, Safari, and Camino at least are broken - (admin) - (7)
                                                                                     Firefox and Safari - (tuberculosis) - (6)
                                                                                         Firefox dumps core fairly regularly for me - (ben_tilly) - (1)
                                                                                             Firefox/Deerpark 1.5 beta weird for me on MEPIS. - (Another Scott)
                                                                                         Completely missing the point. - (admin) - (3)
                                                                                             Yep, I don't get your point - (tuberculosis) - (2)
                                                                                                 Re: Yep, I don't get your point - (admin) - (1)
                                                                                                     So I should probably add something to my webpage - (tuberculosis)
                                                                                 What Scott said - (ben_tilly)
                                                                             Epiphany -NT - (drewk) - (5)
                                                                                 I haven't used it yet but... - (ben_tilly) - (4)
                                                                                     Well I feel silly - (SpiceWare) - (3)
                                                                                         And now I feel silly as well - (ben_tilly) - (2)
                                                                                             Wheee! cha-ching cha-ching - (drewk) - (1)
                                                                                                 LOL - don't feel quite so silly anymore -NT - (SpiceWare)
                                                             He who pays the piper calls the tune. - (broomberg) - (1)
                                                                 I understand why it happens. I don't have to like it. -NT - (ben_tilly)
                 "The job is not done - (Arkadiy)

It's like dingos mating with elephants: messy loud with lots of snapping and position changes.
189 ms