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New And it hasn't been touched in over 5 years
But the next 2 most popular browsers have advanced.

So I'm still in favor of "disadvantaging" that browser and applying pressure for people to switch.

Otherwise, we really are going to be stuck at Html 3.2 forever.

Just like Microsoft wants.



"Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect"   --Mark Twain

"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them."   --Albert Einstein

"This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses."   --George W. Bush
New In other words the 1% figure was a red herring
You are in favour of punishing users because they aren't using the products that you want them to.


Glad we have that straight.

Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
New I'm not the one doing the punishing in this scenario
and I reckon they signed up for a certain level of pain when they bought windows.



"Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect"   --Mark Twain

"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them."   --Albert Einstein

"This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses."   --George W. Bush
New You're not?
If you do something knowing that it will cause pain to be inflicted, arguing about whether you are at fault is just a question of semantics.

Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
New One user's pain is another's pleasure
I can't please everybody.



"Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect"   --Mark Twain

"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them."   --Albert Einstein

"This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses."   --George W. Bush
Expand Edited by tuberculosis Dec. 23, 2005, 02:20:19 AM EST
New Far too often...
people don't even try. People who give themselves easy excuses are particularly unlikely to try.

Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
New He should not have to
New Is high-bandwidth streaming video a punishment?
If you're using dialup, there's no way you're going to watch a 256K stream. Is the user being punished?
===

Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
New If you want to limit yourself... do that.
But don't blame a service that offers streaming video @ 256K and greater for not servicing low-bandwidth users.

TBH, most (notice I typed _most_) dial-up users are that way by choice. I know of many people that they do not see a good reason to have Broadband period. They choose to surf @ Dial-up speed.

The choice to be dial-up can be one of cost vs percieved benefit.
It can be preference, not wanting to deal with website bling
Just plain not wanting to wield the firehose of information right now.

Few are limited to Dial-Up due to location or lack of possible broadband.
--
[link|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net|greg],
[link|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ iwethey
Freedom is not FREE.
Yeah, but 10s of Trillions of US Dollars?
SELECT * FROM scog WHERE ethics > 0;

0 rows returned.
New No, they're being punsished
Todd's position is that if we don't start using the newer features, users will never upgrade from their current software. Content has to lead to get past chicken and egg.

Ben's position is that using these new features that aren't supported in the older software is punishing users for not upgrading.

So if I have high-bandwidth video, isn't that punsihing users for not upgrading to broadband?
===

Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
New ICLRPDs. (new thread)
Created as new thread #239000 titled [link|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=239000|ICLRPDs.]
[link|http://spellbound.sourceforge.net/|Spellbound] is very handy. :-)
New I wonder how Ben feels about stations
switching to broadcasting in HDTV?



"Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect"   --Mark Twain

"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them."   --Albert Einstein

"This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses."   --George W. Bush
New Seems the US government is shoving this one
down the throats of end users.

There really is no need for them to get new TVs. They will just miss the extra info transmitted on the sidebands. Which of course, since it'll be wide format... the news and programs *WILL* use that area for things normally not have done. Like Center shots tween two people, meaning the "NTSC 4:3" only users will se about 2/3rds of each person... :)

But, they will still be able to *SEE* it.
--
[link|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net|greg],
[link|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ iwethey
Freedom is not FREE.
Yeah, but 10s of Trillions of US Dollars?
SELECT * FROM scog WHERE ethics > 0;

0 rows returned.
New IIRC
Once we've (been) switched, the analog channels we've all come to know an love will be "reassigned" to the highest bidder for other things, like maybe CCTV-for-hire (to support the Surveilance society) or for YAN cell phone encoding scheme.
jb4
shrub●bish (Am., from shrub + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf. BULLSHIT

New I think that the switch is fine...
but I'm not happy with their decision to force the migration to complete by cutting off standard TV at a point where a lot of people would like to keep using their old TVs.

Luckily this will be mitigated somewhat by the fact that cable and satellite TV providers are willing to provide the old style of signal.

Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
New No, it is not punishing them.
If you have a service you provide and you have a "minimum service level" that you can make you product work at, you are not punishing the users. You excluding them from participation, until they fix the problem.

Some offerings like that, are sometimes done out of sheer stupidity of not knowing any better. Some are due to ignorance of the group they are trying to reach. Some are done on purpose, to not compromise on the level of service they want to provide.

I still believe stores and of the like should stick to making interfaces that are light enough to run well over Dial-up. Many sadly don't even care though the know.

It is just exclusion, not punishment. Just like Microsoft not supporting the OpenDocument XML spec. They have chosen to not support or interoperate with it, they could at any moment change that stance. It is because they choose to be excluded.

Even if in Ben's scenario, Ben was choosing to stay at the level of "stuff" he was using due to more than one constraint. Some nearly-mandatory, some optional, others on preference.

If it comes down to it, I am sure Ben will admit nothing except optional and preference constraints were the over riding factor for his stagnation in technology terms.

But, then again, I could be wrong.
--
[link|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net|greg],
[link|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ iwethey
Freedom is not FREE.
Yeah, but 10s of Trillions of US Dollars?
SELECT * FROM scog WHERE ethics > 0;

0 rows returned.
New I think you summarized my position pretty well
I was paying for my wife's medical school, so I didn't have a lot of spare cash. I was living in a dorm that was a shoebox by NYC standards, so I had no room. (I had just enough for my laptop, and that was it. I didn't even have enough room to use a mouse with it!) I anticipated both restrictions improving at a given date, and so was just trying to hang in until then.

At that date they did improve, and I got myself a much nicer computer. Since then I've kept myself fairly current.

However I was poor for long enough that I empathize strongly with people who have a computer that they don't want to replace any sooner than they have to. And I don't think that they should be forced to do so.

Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
New Firefox is a 5MB download that works well on older computers


Peter
[link|http://www.no2id.net/|Don't Let The Terrorists Win]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
New Not on my old system
1. Firefox did not exist.

2. Mozilla binaries required an update to the C libraries that I didn't have room for.

Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
New Re: Not on my old system
1. That's not a very "can-do" attitude.
2. Delete the monkey-pr0n.


Peter
[link|http://www.no2id.net/|Don't Let The Terrorists Win]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
New Is there a reason?
Why are you acting like such an asshole?

Wondering,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
New "Hu-mour".
Regards,

-scott anderson

"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
New Can't be. It isn't funny.
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
New Beg to differ
But it could get funnier. Please, go ahead and say, "But I don't have any monkey pr0n."
===

Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
New Maybe to *you* it isn't.
But then again, I don't think your humor cells are fully functional sometimes, Ben. :-P
Regards,

-scott anderson

"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
New of course they are misfunctioning, he's a father now
"the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli

Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
New Agreed
Something about small kids cripples the humour in guys.

But it will come back.

Some day, the tyke will be walking along and will slip.
And you will see it.
In real time.
And your brain will do the possibility for damage calculation.
And will decide it is low enough that you can crack a smile.
Just a little one. Really, a compressed smirk.
And roll your eyes.

And think: Clumsy fuck - must have got it from HER side.

And then it will do the apparent callousness VS guilt calculation.
Along with the chance for getting caught, ie: Wife in the room?

Note: All of this is happening while the kids is flailing his arms
to gain balance. There are no sharp tables edges around, only
very cussiony couch pillows and soft carpet. You are out of range
so there is nothing you can do to help.

That is the day the humour starts creeping in.

Can take a LONG time though.
New No
If you choose to use an old browser, I am OK with your having a degraded experience.

What I am not OK with is people taking working sites, making "improvements" that nobody really wanted, and gratuitously breaking people whose systems didn't need breaking.

Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
New Nobody?
Now I think most all-flash sites are Not Scottish. But if someone decides they want their e-commerce site to be flashier than anyone else's, it's their site, they can do what they want. It's not like people are taking working sites, re-writing them with new technology that doesn't degrade well in older browsers, but still looks the same in new browsers as before the change.

Are you suggesting that when someone writes a new version of their site using a new technology, that they should also keep the old site up-to-date and in sync with the new site? Because that's the only way to introduce the new features without locking out users of older browsers.





[edit] I just realized, you sound like you're talking in general terms about a specific instance. What site or sites stopped working for you when they redesigned?
===

Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
Expand Edited by drewk Dec. 22, 2005, 04:50:41 PM EST
New People aren't doing that?
Because that is pretty much what I've seen happen.

People take working sites, decide to add a couple of cool features that nobody really cares about, and in the "upgrade" they break older browsers.

Yes, it looks slightly different. But it doesn't look a lot different. Typically the changes that break sites for older browsers are fairly marginal UI changes, that just happen to introduce something that craps out older browsers.

Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
New I disagree
If the product is broken, that's sorta the user's fault for continuing to use it.


Peter
[link|http://www.no2id.net/|Don't Let The Terrorists Win]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
New Yes, the product is broken. But...
the issue here is how OK it is to break what was working just fine.

Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
New Also, aren't the users *choosing* to use a broken product?


Peter
[link|http://www.no2id.net/|Don't Let The Terrorists Win]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
New Same question I offered Todd
Name me a non-broken browser that is available today and is useable on mainstream websites.

Thanks,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
New Firefox, Opera, Safari, Camino


Peter
[link|http://www.no2id.net/|Don't Let The Terrorists Win]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
New Firefox, Safari, and Camino at least are broken
Firefox: crashes, CSS bugs, weird memory leaks
Safari: eats all of the CPU on my Mini occasionally
Camino: so many different ways of broken it's not usable
Regards,

-scott anderson

"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
New Firefox and Safari
Kick IE 6's sorry little ass all over the web when it comes to actually implementing CSS and minimizing leakage.

So I don't know what issues you're specifically referencing, but IE LEAKS LIKE A BLOODY SEIVE (Dynamic Update - AJAX to you - requests are allocating about 8M of ram each in IE but only 4M are getting reclaimed) and doesn't even implement the bloody :hover pseudo class properly thus requiring bits of javascript to hack around it. I could go on, but for my money Firefox is the best browser on the web, Safari is second despite a number of wacky implementation decisions (all of which we've been able to work around once we figured out the "philosophy" of the thing.

Camino I haven't tried in forever but it should be about like Firefox.




"Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect"   --Mark Twain

"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them."   --Albert Einstein

"This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses."   --George W. Bush
New Firefox dumps core fairly regularly for me
I don't dispute that it is better than IE. But that isn't saying much.

According to [link|http://secunia.com/search/?search=firefox|http://secunia.com/s...h/?search=firefox], all that has been reported recently are denial of service attacks. But just over 3 months ago a whole ton of "execute arbitrary code" bugs were found in firefox, and I don't doubt that there are plenty more.

Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
New Firefox/Deerpark 1.5 beta weird for me on MEPIS.
I installed the latest SimplyMEPIS beta (SimplyMEPIS_3.4-2.rc1.iso)on my T41. Firefox/Deerpark 1.5 beta acts very strangely:

1) The pageup/pagedown keys don't work (it acts as if it goes pagedown then immediately back to the top of the page).
[edit:] This problem seems to be resolved. I was trying to setup the desktop at 1400x1050 and part of the setup was stuck at 1024x768. Changing everything to 1024x768 has fixed this problem. (Apparently I need to edit some config files to get 1400x1050 working...) [/edit]

2) It seems to have no DNS cacheing at all. Every request to z involves about a 15 s delay while it looks up z's address, then there's a long "waiting".
[edit:] This problem seems to be gone as well. ? [/edit]

3) Konquerer seems to act a little better, so it seems to be something about Deerpark. [edit:] Konqueror is working fine now too. [/edit]

(I thought I updated to the released version of Firefox, but I can't seem to find it on the machine.)

Both of these things with Firefox are probably more related to some sort of MEPIS networking/X settings, but I've not had these types of problems with Firefox on Win2k.

Just another datapoint...

Cheers,
Scott.
(Who's going to try the latest release of SimplyMEPIS, then may try Kubuntu. One of his goals for 2006 is to move as much as possible to Linux even if that means running WinforLin/etc. in Linux. [edit:] SimplyMEPIS 3.4-2.rc1 seems worth sticking with at the moment. [/edit])
Expand Edited by Another Scott Dec. 25, 2005, 05:11:18 PM EST
New Completely missing the point.
Yes, Firefox and Safari are better. Yes, IE sucks massive donkey dongs. That doesn't mean that Firefox and Safari aren't broken as well. Just in different, lesser ways.

There are definitely more issues to work around in IE, but I've had to work around issues in Firefox too (try hiding/showing multiple stacked iframes sometime).

Firefox may be the best on the web, but it is still broken.

Camino is much worse than Firefox. Crap-ass port. I couldn't use it for more than a few minutes before stumbling across a bug or a crash.
Regards,

-scott anderson

"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
New Yep, I don't get your point
Browser ranking in order of suckyness of 3 leading browsers (which make up about 98% of traffic) is IE 6, Safari, Firefox.

So?

Of these, two are making improvements.

One is stuck in time and it happens to be the suckyest one. So eliminating support for it can only be a good thing.




"Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect"   --Mark Twain

"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them."   --Albert Einstein

"This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses."   --George W. Bush
New Re: Yep, I don't get your point
You said earlier: "If your browser crashes, you need a new one."

Ben said (later on): "Name me a non-broken browser that is available today and is useable on mainstream websites."

Peter said: "Firefox, Opera, Safari, Camino"

And I said: "Firefox, Safari, and Camino at least are broken"

The point being that there aren't ANY browsers that aren't broken. So telling someone they need something new because the old crashes means that no one will be using anything.
Regards,

-scott anderson

"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
New So I should probably add something to my webpage
like "Your browser has exceeded this site's minimum suckativity index. Please download a less sucky browser - here are some suggestions".



"Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect"   --Mark Twain

"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them."   --Albert Einstein

"This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses."   --George W. Bush
New What Scott said
As for Opera, [link|http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=opera+dhtml&btnG=Google+Search|http://www.google.co...tnG=Google+Search] pretty quickly gave me [link|http://www.jwweb.com/20010824.html|http://www.jwweb.com/20010824.html], which talks about how Opera doesn't fully support DHTML positioning using JavaScript. (I had remembered people complaining about DHTML support within Opera, which is why I searched on that.) With Ajax becoming more and more popular, that will become a bigger issue.

But even if it is useable, the question is whether it is good in the sense that Todd said. A glance at [link|http://secunia.com/search/?search=Opera|http://secunia.com/search/?search=Opera] tells me it is not. Just glancing at the last 2 months of reports, I see 5 security vulnerabilities, 3 of which could wind up executing arbitrary code on the user system. (One is entirely Opera's fault, one is due to an OS/Opera interaction, one Flash/Opera.)

That makes it not good in my books. And the ungoodness would be obvious if a competitor set out, as Microsoft did, and deliberately tried to find the weak spots and make sure that lots of websites tickle them.

Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
New Epiphany
===

Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
New I haven't used it yet but...
It combines the Mozilla engine and Gnome. I'll bet that it is subject to the problems that I've had with both.

Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
New Well I feel silly
I thought he meant he saw where you were coming from, as in "I had an epiphany".
Darrell Spice, Jr.                      [link|http://spiceware.org/gallery/ArtisticOverpass|Artistic Overpass]\n[link|http://www.spiceware.org/|SpiceWare] - We don't do Windows, it's too much of a chore
New And now I feel silly as well
You're right that he could well have meant that, and I didn't even think of it!

Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
New Wheee! cha-ching cha-ching
You're both right, and both wrong. I intended both interpretations as scecondary meanings, but more importantly I was expecting Peter to jump in with a rant about how it's not only cack, but it's cack that took too long to get to its current state of cack-ful-ness.
===

Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
New LOL - don't feel quite so silly anymore
Darrell Spice, Jr.            Trendy yet complex\nPeople seek me out - though they're not sure why\n[link|http://spiceware.org/gallery/ArtisticOverpass|Artistic Overpass]                      [link|http://www.spiceware.org/|SpiceWare]
     Graphing in Javascript using Canvas Tag - (tuberculosis) - (82)
         Nifty, but next to useless, unfortunately. - (admin) - (8)
             Only if you're supporting broken browsers - (tuberculosis) - (7)
                 Er... - (admin) - (6)
                     Yes, this is a toy - (tuberculosis) - (5)
                         What about SVG? - (ChrisR) - (4)
                             Its dead, Jim. - (tuberculosis) - (3)
                                 It's dead on the web. - (pwhysall)
                                 Standardization process is broken - (JayMehaffey) - (1)
                                     Have you ever served on standards committee? - (tuberculosis)
         And it crashes older browsers.... - (Simon_Jester) - (72)
             Cool! Makes you wanna upgrade! - (tuberculosis) - (71)
                 No. Makes me think the web designer is a jackass. -NT - (ben_tilly) - (69)
                     If a browser crashes - its not the designer's fault - (tuberculosis) - (68)
                         Strongly disagree - (ben_tilly) - (67)
                             I think we have different quality expectations of software - (tuberculosis) - (66)
                                 I seem to recall... - (Yendor) - (1)
                                     If it's valid HTML/CSS, that's a browser bug. - (pwhysall)
                                 Agree on the crash thing. - (pwhysall)
                                 I agree with you about well-written software - (ben_tilly) - (62)
                                     Not blaming the users per se - (tuberculosis) - (61)
                                         cf. Ada - (jb4)
                                         member of a working group now, know what ya mean -NT - (boxley)
                                         You might not be blaming the users... - (ben_tilly) - (58)
                                             problem is you are all not willing to use microsoft only -NT - (boxley) - (1)
                                                 The right analogy for that is... - (ben_tilly)
                                             Or the user is enabling bad coders - (tuberculosis) - (55)
                                                 Suppose I'm a user using an old browser... - (ben_tilly) - (54)
                                                     By this logic we should all stick to html 3.2 forever - (tuberculosis) - (53)
                                                         Go back to the root conversation - (ben_tilly) - (52)
                                                             And it hasn't been touched in over 5 years - (tuberculosis) - (49)
                                                                 In other words the 1% figure was a red herring - (ben_tilly) - (48)
                                                                     I'm not the one doing the punishing in this scenario - (tuberculosis) - (4)
                                                                         You're not? - (ben_tilly) - (3)
                                                                             One user's pain is another's pleasure - (tuberculosis) - (2)
                                                                                 Far too often... - (ben_tilly) - (1)
                                                                                     He should not have to -NT - (broomberg)
                                                                     Is high-bandwidth streaming video a punishment? - (drewk) - (22)
                                                                         If you want to limit yourself... do that. - (folkert) - (18)
                                                                             No, they're being punsished - (drewk) - (17)
                                                                                 ICLRPDs. (new thread) - (Another Scott)
                                                                                 I wonder how Ben feels about stations - (tuberculosis) - (3)
                                                                                     Seems the US government is shoving this one - (folkert) - (1)
                                                                                         IIRC - (jb4)
                                                                                     I think that the switch is fine... - (ben_tilly)
                                                                                 No, it is not punishing them. - (folkert) - (11)
                                                                                     I think you summarized my position pretty well - (ben_tilly) - (10)
                                                                                         Firefox is a 5MB download that works well on older computers -NT - (pwhysall) - (9)
                                                                                             Not on my old system - (ben_tilly) - (8)
                                                                                                 Re: Not on my old system - (pwhysall) - (7)
                                                                                                     Is there a reason? - (ben_tilly) - (6)
                                                                                                         "Hu-mour". -NT - (admin) - (5)
                                                                                                             Can't be. It isn't funny. -NT - (ben_tilly) - (4)
                                                                                                                 Beg to differ - (drewk)
                                                                                                                 Maybe to *you* it isn't. - (admin) - (2)
                                                                                                                     of course they are misfunctioning, he's a father now -NT - (boxley) - (1)
                                                                                                                         Agreed - (broomberg)
                                                                         No - (ben_tilly) - (2)
                                                                             Nobody? - (drewk) - (1)
                                                                                 People aren't doing that? - (ben_tilly)
                                                                     I disagree - (pwhysall) - (1)
                                                                         Yes, the product is broken. But... - (ben_tilly)
                                                                     Also, aren't the users *choosing* to use a broken product? -NT - (pwhysall) - (17)
                                                                         Same question I offered Todd - (ben_tilly) - (16)
                                                                             Firefox, Opera, Safari, Camino -NT - (pwhysall) - (9)
                                                                                 Firefox, Safari, and Camino at least are broken - (admin) - (7)
                                                                                     Firefox and Safari - (tuberculosis) - (6)
                                                                                         Firefox dumps core fairly regularly for me - (ben_tilly) - (1)
                                                                                             Firefox/Deerpark 1.5 beta weird for me on MEPIS. - (Another Scott)
                                                                                         Completely missing the point. - (admin) - (3)
                                                                                             Yep, I don't get your point - (tuberculosis) - (2)
                                                                                                 Re: Yep, I don't get your point - (admin) - (1)
                                                                                                     So I should probably add something to my webpage - (tuberculosis)
                                                                                 What Scott said - (ben_tilly)
                                                                             Epiphany -NT - (drewk) - (5)
                                                                                 I haven't used it yet but... - (ben_tilly) - (4)
                                                                                     Well I feel silly - (SpiceWare) - (3)
                                                                                         And now I feel silly as well - (ben_tilly) - (2)
                                                                                             Wheee! cha-ching cha-ching - (drewk) - (1)
                                                                                                 LOL - don't feel quite so silly anymore -NT - (SpiceWare)
                                                             He who pays the piper calls the tune. - (broomberg) - (1)
                                                                 I understand why it happens. I don't have to like it. -NT - (ben_tilly)
                 "The job is not done - (Arkadiy)

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