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New If you want to limit yourself... do that.
But don't blame a service that offers streaming video @ 256K and greater for not servicing low-bandwidth users.

TBH, most (notice I typed _most_) dial-up users are that way by choice. I know of many people that they do not see a good reason to have Broadband period. They choose to surf @ Dial-up speed.

The choice to be dial-up can be one of cost vs percieved benefit.
It can be preference, not wanting to deal with website bling
Just plain not wanting to wield the firehose of information right now.

Few are limited to Dial-Up due to location or lack of possible broadband.
--
[link|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net|greg],
[link|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ iwethey
Freedom is not FREE.
Yeah, but 10s of Trillions of US Dollars?
SELECT * FROM scog WHERE ethics > 0;

0 rows returned.
New No, they're being punsished
Todd's position is that if we don't start using the newer features, users will never upgrade from their current software. Content has to lead to get past chicken and egg.

Ben's position is that using these new features that aren't supported in the older software is punishing users for not upgrading.

So if I have high-bandwidth video, isn't that punsihing users for not upgrading to broadband?
===

Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
New ICLRPDs. (new thread)
Created as new thread #239000 titled [link|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=239000|ICLRPDs.]
[link|http://spellbound.sourceforge.net/|Spellbound] is very handy. :-)
New I wonder how Ben feels about stations
switching to broadcasting in HDTV?



"Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect"   --Mark Twain

"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them."   --Albert Einstein

"This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses."   --George W. Bush
New Seems the US government is shoving this one
down the throats of end users.

There really is no need for them to get new TVs. They will just miss the extra info transmitted on the sidebands. Which of course, since it'll be wide format... the news and programs *WILL* use that area for things normally not have done. Like Center shots tween two people, meaning the "NTSC 4:3" only users will se about 2/3rds of each person... :)

But, they will still be able to *SEE* it.
--
[link|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net|greg],
[link|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ iwethey
Freedom is not FREE.
Yeah, but 10s of Trillions of US Dollars?
SELECT * FROM scog WHERE ethics > 0;

0 rows returned.
New IIRC
Once we've (been) switched, the analog channels we've all come to know an love will be "reassigned" to the highest bidder for other things, like maybe CCTV-for-hire (to support the Surveilance society) or for YAN cell phone encoding scheme.
jb4
shrub●bish (Am., from shrub + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf. BULLSHIT

New I think that the switch is fine...
but I'm not happy with their decision to force the migration to complete by cutting off standard TV at a point where a lot of people would like to keep using their old TVs.

Luckily this will be mitigated somewhat by the fact that cable and satellite TV providers are willing to provide the old style of signal.

Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
New No, it is not punishing them.
If you have a service you provide and you have a "minimum service level" that you can make you product work at, you are not punishing the users. You excluding them from participation, until they fix the problem.

Some offerings like that, are sometimes done out of sheer stupidity of not knowing any better. Some are due to ignorance of the group they are trying to reach. Some are done on purpose, to not compromise on the level of service they want to provide.

I still believe stores and of the like should stick to making interfaces that are light enough to run well over Dial-up. Many sadly don't even care though the know.

It is just exclusion, not punishment. Just like Microsoft not supporting the OpenDocument XML spec. They have chosen to not support or interoperate with it, they could at any moment change that stance. It is because they choose to be excluded.

Even if in Ben's scenario, Ben was choosing to stay at the level of "stuff" he was using due to more than one constraint. Some nearly-mandatory, some optional, others on preference.

If it comes down to it, I am sure Ben will admit nothing except optional and preference constraints were the over riding factor for his stagnation in technology terms.

But, then again, I could be wrong.
--
[link|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net|greg],
[link|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ iwethey
Freedom is not FREE.
Yeah, but 10s of Trillions of US Dollars?
SELECT * FROM scog WHERE ethics > 0;

0 rows returned.
New I think you summarized my position pretty well
I was paying for my wife's medical school, so I didn't have a lot of spare cash. I was living in a dorm that was a shoebox by NYC standards, so I had no room. (I had just enough for my laptop, and that was it. I didn't even have enough room to use a mouse with it!) I anticipated both restrictions improving at a given date, and so was just trying to hang in until then.

At that date they did improve, and I got myself a much nicer computer. Since then I've kept myself fairly current.

However I was poor for long enough that I empathize strongly with people who have a computer that they don't want to replace any sooner than they have to. And I don't think that they should be forced to do so.

Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
New Firefox is a 5MB download that works well on older computers


Peter
[link|http://www.no2id.net/|Don't Let The Terrorists Win]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
New Not on my old system
1. Firefox did not exist.

2. Mozilla binaries required an update to the C libraries that I didn't have room for.

Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
New Re: Not on my old system
1. That's not a very "can-do" attitude.
2. Delete the monkey-pr0n.


Peter
[link|http://www.no2id.net/|Don't Let The Terrorists Win]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
New Is there a reason?
Why are you acting like such an asshole?

Wondering,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
New "Hu-mour".
Regards,

-scott anderson

"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
New Can't be. It isn't funny.
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
New Beg to differ
But it could get funnier. Please, go ahead and say, "But I don't have any monkey pr0n."
===

Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
New Maybe to *you* it isn't.
But then again, I don't think your humor cells are fully functional sometimes, Ben. :-P
Regards,

-scott anderson

"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
New of course they are misfunctioning, he's a father now
"the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli

Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
New Agreed
Something about small kids cripples the humour in guys.

But it will come back.

Some day, the tyke will be walking along and will slip.
And you will see it.
In real time.
And your brain will do the possibility for damage calculation.
And will decide it is low enough that you can crack a smile.
Just a little one. Really, a compressed smirk.
And roll your eyes.

And think: Clumsy fuck - must have got it from HER side.

And then it will do the apparent callousness VS guilt calculation.
Along with the chance for getting caught, ie: Wife in the room?

Note: All of this is happening while the kids is flailing his arms
to gain balance. There are no sharp tables edges around, only
very cussiony couch pillows and soft carpet. You are out of range
so there is nothing you can do to help.

That is the day the humour starts creeping in.

Can take a LONG time though.
     Graphing in Javascript using Canvas Tag - (tuberculosis) - (82)
         Nifty, but next to useless, unfortunately. - (admin) - (8)
             Only if you're supporting broken browsers - (tuberculosis) - (7)
                 Er... - (admin) - (6)
                     Yes, this is a toy - (tuberculosis) - (5)
                         What about SVG? - (ChrisR) - (4)
                             Its dead, Jim. - (tuberculosis) - (3)
                                 It's dead on the web. - (pwhysall)
                                 Standardization process is broken - (JayMehaffey) - (1)
                                     Have you ever served on standards committee? - (tuberculosis)
         And it crashes older browsers.... - (Simon_Jester) - (72)
             Cool! Makes you wanna upgrade! - (tuberculosis) - (71)
                 No. Makes me think the web designer is a jackass. -NT - (ben_tilly) - (69)
                     If a browser crashes - its not the designer's fault - (tuberculosis) - (68)
                         Strongly disagree - (ben_tilly) - (67)
                             I think we have different quality expectations of software - (tuberculosis) - (66)
                                 I seem to recall... - (Yendor) - (1)
                                     If it's valid HTML/CSS, that's a browser bug. - (pwhysall)
                                 Agree on the crash thing. - (pwhysall)
                                 I agree with you about well-written software - (ben_tilly) - (62)
                                     Not blaming the users per se - (tuberculosis) - (61)
                                         cf. Ada - (jb4)
                                         member of a working group now, know what ya mean -NT - (boxley)
                                         You might not be blaming the users... - (ben_tilly) - (58)
                                             problem is you are all not willing to use microsoft only -NT - (boxley) - (1)
                                                 The right analogy for that is... - (ben_tilly)
                                             Or the user is enabling bad coders - (tuberculosis) - (55)
                                                 Suppose I'm a user using an old browser... - (ben_tilly) - (54)
                                                     By this logic we should all stick to html 3.2 forever - (tuberculosis) - (53)
                                                         Go back to the root conversation - (ben_tilly) - (52)
                                                             And it hasn't been touched in over 5 years - (tuberculosis) - (49)
                                                                 In other words the 1% figure was a red herring - (ben_tilly) - (48)
                                                                     I'm not the one doing the punishing in this scenario - (tuberculosis) - (4)
                                                                         You're not? - (ben_tilly) - (3)
                                                                             One user's pain is another's pleasure - (tuberculosis) - (2)
                                                                                 Far too often... - (ben_tilly) - (1)
                                                                                     He should not have to -NT - (broomberg)
                                                                     Is high-bandwidth streaming video a punishment? - (drewk) - (22)
                                                                         If you want to limit yourself... do that. - (folkert) - (18)
                                                                             No, they're being punsished - (drewk) - (17)
                                                                                 ICLRPDs. (new thread) - (Another Scott)
                                                                                 I wonder how Ben feels about stations - (tuberculosis) - (3)
                                                                                     Seems the US government is shoving this one - (folkert) - (1)
                                                                                         IIRC - (jb4)
                                                                                     I think that the switch is fine... - (ben_tilly)
                                                                                 No, it is not punishing them. - (folkert) - (11)
                                                                                     I think you summarized my position pretty well - (ben_tilly) - (10)
                                                                                         Firefox is a 5MB download that works well on older computers -NT - (pwhysall) - (9)
                                                                                             Not on my old system - (ben_tilly) - (8)
                                                                                                 Re: Not on my old system - (pwhysall) - (7)
                                                                                                     Is there a reason? - (ben_tilly) - (6)
                                                                                                         "Hu-mour". -NT - (admin) - (5)
                                                                                                             Can't be. It isn't funny. -NT - (ben_tilly) - (4)
                                                                                                                 Beg to differ - (drewk)
                                                                                                                 Maybe to *you* it isn't. - (admin) - (2)
                                                                                                                     of course they are misfunctioning, he's a father now -NT - (boxley) - (1)
                                                                                                                         Agreed - (broomberg)
                                                                         No - (ben_tilly) - (2)
                                                                             Nobody? - (drewk) - (1)
                                                                                 People aren't doing that? - (ben_tilly)
                                                                     I disagree - (pwhysall) - (1)
                                                                         Yes, the product is broken. But... - (ben_tilly)
                                                                     Also, aren't the users *choosing* to use a broken product? -NT - (pwhysall) - (17)
                                                                         Same question I offered Todd - (ben_tilly) - (16)
                                                                             Firefox, Opera, Safari, Camino -NT - (pwhysall) - (9)
                                                                                 Firefox, Safari, and Camino at least are broken - (admin) - (7)
                                                                                     Firefox and Safari - (tuberculosis) - (6)
                                                                                         Firefox dumps core fairly regularly for me - (ben_tilly) - (1)
                                                                                             Firefox/Deerpark 1.5 beta weird for me on MEPIS. - (Another Scott)
                                                                                         Completely missing the point. - (admin) - (3)
                                                                                             Yep, I don't get your point - (tuberculosis) - (2)
                                                                                                 Re: Yep, I don't get your point - (admin) - (1)
                                                                                                     So I should probably add something to my webpage - (tuberculosis)
                                                                                 What Scott said - (ben_tilly)
                                                                             Epiphany -NT - (drewk) - (5)
                                                                                 I haven't used it yet but... - (ben_tilly) - (4)
                                                                                     Well I feel silly - (SpiceWare) - (3)
                                                                                         And now I feel silly as well - (ben_tilly) - (2)
                                                                                             Wheee! cha-ching cha-ching - (drewk) - (1)
                                                                                                 LOL - don't feel quite so silly anymore -NT - (SpiceWare)
                                                             He who pays the piper calls the tune. - (broomberg) - (1)
                                                                 I understand why it happens. I don't have to like it. -NT - (ben_tilly)
                 "The job is not done - (Arkadiy)

You want to debate how many LRPD's fit on the head of the GRR?
181 ms