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New No
If you choose to use an old browser, I am OK with your having a degraded experience.

What I am not OK with is people taking working sites, making "improvements" that nobody really wanted, and gratuitously breaking people whose systems didn't need breaking.

I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
New Nobody?
Now I think most all-flash sites are Not Scottish. But if someone decides they want their e-commerce site to be flashier than anyone else's, it's their site, they can do what they want. It's not like people are taking working sites, re-writing them with new technology that doesn't degrade well in older browsers, but still looks the same in new browsers as before the change.

Are you suggesting that when someone writes a new version of their site using a new technology, that they should also keep the old site up-to-date and in sync with the new site? Because that's the only way to introduce the new features without locking out users of older browsers.

[edit] I just realized, you sound like you're talking in general terms about a specific instance. What site or sites stopped working for you when they redesigned?

Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
Expand Edited by drewk Dec. 22, 2005, 04:50:41 PM EST
New People aren't doing that?
Because that is pretty much what I've seen happen.

People take working sites, decide to add a couple of cool features that nobody really cares about, and in the "upgrade" they break older browsers.

Yes, it looks slightly different. But it doesn't look a lot different. Typically the changes that break sites for older browsers are fairly marginal UI changes, that just happen to introduce something that craps out older browsers.

I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
     Graphing in Javascript using Canvas Tag - (tuberculosis) - (82)
         Nifty, but next to useless, unfortunately. - (admin) - (8)
             Only if you're supporting broken browsers - (tuberculosis) - (7)
                 Er... - (admin) - (6)
                     Yes, this is a toy - (tuberculosis) - (5)
                         What about SVG? - (ChrisR) - (4)
                             Its dead, Jim. - (tuberculosis) - (3)
                                 It's dead on the web. - (pwhysall)
                                 Standardization process is broken - (JayMehaffey) - (1)
                                     Have you ever served on standards committee? - (tuberculosis)
         And it crashes older browsers.... - (Simon_Jester) - (72)
             Cool! Makes you wanna upgrade! - (tuberculosis) - (71)
                 No. Makes me think the web designer is a jackass. -NT - (ben_tilly) - (69)
                     If a browser crashes - its not the designer's fault - (tuberculosis) - (68)
                         Strongly disagree - (ben_tilly) - (67)
                             I think we have different quality expectations of software - (tuberculosis) - (66)
                                 I seem to recall... - (Yendor) - (1)
                                     If it's valid HTML/CSS, that's a browser bug. - (pwhysall)
                                 Agree on the crash thing. - (pwhysall)
                                 I agree with you about well-written software - (ben_tilly) - (62)
                                     Not blaming the users per se - (tuberculosis) - (61)
                                         cf. Ada - (jb4)
                                         member of a working group now, know what ya mean -NT - (boxley)
                                         You might not be blaming the users... - (ben_tilly) - (58)
                                             problem is you are all not willing to use microsoft only -NT - (boxley) - (1)
                                                 The right analogy for that is... - (ben_tilly)
                                             Or the user is enabling bad coders - (tuberculosis) - (55)
                                                 Suppose I'm a user using an old browser... - (ben_tilly) - (54)
                                                     By this logic we should all stick to html 3.2 forever - (tuberculosis) - (53)
                                                         Go back to the root conversation - (ben_tilly) - (52)
                                                             And it hasn't been touched in over 5 years - (tuberculosis) - (49)
                                                                 In other words the 1% figure was a red herring - (ben_tilly) - (48)
                                                                     I'm not the one doing the punishing in this scenario - (tuberculosis) - (4)
                                                                         You're not? - (ben_tilly) - (3)
                                                                             One user's pain is another's pleasure - (tuberculosis) - (2)
                                                                                 Far too often... - (ben_tilly) - (1)
                                                                                     He should not have to -NT - (broomberg)
                                                                     Is high-bandwidth streaming video a punishment? - (drewk) - (22)
                                                                         If you want to limit yourself... do that. - (folkert) - (18)
                                                                             No, they're being punsished - (drewk) - (17)
                                                                                 ICLRPDs. (new thread) - (Another Scott)
                                                                                 I wonder how Ben feels about stations - (tuberculosis) - (3)
                                                                                     Seems the US government is shoving this one - (folkert) - (1)
                                                                                         IIRC - (jb4)
                                                                                     I think that the switch is fine... - (ben_tilly)
                                                                                 No, it is not punishing them. - (folkert) - (11)
                                                                                     I think you summarized my position pretty well - (ben_tilly) - (10)
                                                                                         Firefox is a 5MB download that works well on older computers -NT - (pwhysall) - (9)
                                                                                             Not on my old system - (ben_tilly) - (8)
                                                                                                 Re: Not on my old system - (pwhysall) - (7)
                                                                                                     Is there a reason? - (ben_tilly) - (6)
                                                                                                         "Hu-mour". -NT - (admin) - (5)
                                                                                                             Can't be. It isn't funny. -NT - (ben_tilly) - (4)
                                                                                                                 Beg to differ - (drewk)
                                                                                                                 Maybe to *you* it isn't. - (admin) - (2)
                                                                                                                     of course they are misfunctioning, he's a father now -NT - (boxley) - (1)
                                                                                                                         Agreed - (broomberg)
                                                                         No - (ben_tilly) - (2)
                                                                             Nobody? - (drewk) - (1)
                                                                                 People aren't doing that? - (ben_tilly)
                                                                     I disagree - (pwhysall) - (1)
                                                                         Yes, the product is broken. But... - (ben_tilly)
                                                                     Also, aren't the users *choosing* to use a broken product? -NT - (pwhysall) - (17)
                                                                         Same question I offered Todd - (ben_tilly) - (16)
                                                                             Firefox, Opera, Safari, Camino -NT - (pwhysall) - (9)
                                                                                 Firefox, Safari, and Camino at least are broken - (admin) - (7)
                                                                                     Firefox and Safari - (tuberculosis) - (6)
                                                                                         Firefox dumps core fairly regularly for me - (ben_tilly) - (1)
                                                                                             Firefox/Deerpark 1.5 beta weird for me on MEPIS. - (Another Scott)
                                                                                         Completely missing the point. - (admin) - (3)
                                                                                             Yep, I don't get your point - (tuberculosis) - (2)
                                                                                                 Re: Yep, I don't get your point - (admin) - (1)
                                                                                                     So I should probably add something to my webpage - (tuberculosis)
                                                                                 What Scott said - (ben_tilly)
                                                                             Epiphany -NT - (drewk) - (5)
                                                                                 I haven't used it yet but... - (ben_tilly) - (4)
                                                                                     Well I feel silly - (SpiceWare) - (3)
                                                                                         And now I feel silly as well - (ben_tilly) - (2)
                                                                                             Wheee! cha-ching cha-ching - (drewk) - (1)
                                                                                                 LOL - don't feel quite so silly anymore -NT - (SpiceWare)
                                                             He who pays the piper calls the tune. - (broomberg) - (1)
                                                                 I understand why it happens. I don't have to like it. -NT - (ben_tilly)
                 "The job is not done - (Arkadiy)

My brain hurts thinking about how you know all of that.
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