Allah is to Muslims as _________

Post #43,814 by Brandioch 6/28/02 3:18:58 PM Reply	Allah is to Muslims as __________ is to Christians. So - a change that would support a single religion would be "just as acceptable" as a statement that doesn't support a single religion? Are you listening to yourself? Listen to yourself. I'm saying that "under God" DOES support a single religion (Christianity). I have NEVER said that it didn't support a single religion. That is the point of people such as yourself. What I illustrated is how it DOES support a single religion and this is simply done by changing from the identifier for the Christian religion to the identifier for the Muslim religion. Oh, and my Muslim friend says that your Muslim friend is wrong. PS: Answer the question in the title.
Post #43,817 by imric 6/28/02 3:29:34 PM 6/28/02 4:31:30 PM Reply	Insist that God is a name all you want. Of course simply repeating oneself over and over in the face of evidence to the contrary (again, look in the Bible - you'll find the name of God - and it's not "God") until it's accepted as fact might be a 'winning strategy of lawyers and politicians - but it doesn't mean that conclusions reached thereby are valid. Everyone who has looked in the Bible before knows that you are either A) completely ignorant of the subject about which you are arguing, or B) Manufacturing data to support your own 'argument'. I don't think you are ignorant. ps. Funny, God and Allah seem to refer to the same divinity [link\|http://www.al-islam.org/beliefs/main.html\|here]. Imric's Tips for Living Paranoia Is a Survival Trait Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised... Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win. Edited by imric June 28, 2002, 04:27:48 PM EDT Edited by imric June 28, 2002, 04:31:30 PM EDT Expand All History
Post #43,828 by Brandioch 6/28/02 4:59:35 PM Reply	To quote you "look in the Bible". And "it's a sin" to post the name of the god of the Christians. "god" is a noun. "God" is a proper noun. No. Fuck this. I am NOT going to begin teaching basic grammar to people. In "One nation, under God", because "God" is capitalized but not the first word of that sentence, "God" is a proper noun. Everyone who has looked in the Bible before knows that you are either A) completely ignorant of the subject about which you are arguing, or B) Manufacturing data to support your own 'argument'. And I'm sure that "everyone" who has done that also believes it is a "sin" to post it. Hey, if you were even right about it being in the Bible, you'd be able to point me to a chapter and verse. I'm going to be prophetic and say that you won't even be able to do this. Of course, you won't have any reasonable answer as to why you can't do this. You'll either skip it or claim that it's against your religion again.
Post #43,829 by imric 6/28/02 5:01:21 PM Reply	Nope. Wrong again. All pronouns referring to God are capitalized. Look in the Bible. Imric's Tips for Living Paranoia Is a Survival Trait Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised... Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
Post #43,837 by Brandioch 6/28/02 5:39:17 PM Reply	Look up "circular reference". I'm wrong because I disagree with your religion. To prove that I'm wrong, you reference the holy book of your religion. To quote you: All pronouns referring to God are capitalized. You do realize that, accourding to your position, you just stated that all pronouns refering to another pronoun are capitalized. But pronouns can only refer to nouns (or proper nouns). That is the definition of "pronoun". I'm sure there's a chapter and verse in that book of your's that will "prove" I'm wrong. There usually is in those kinds of books.
Post #43,839 by imric 6/28/02 5:45:21 PM Reply	Confusing levels of reference Another political and legal tactic. I refer you to the content of that book, or the Quran, for that matter. I never asked you to believe the message therein. Imric's Tips for Living Paranoia Is a Survival Trait Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised... Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
Post #43,841 by Brandioch 6/28/02 5:56:27 PM Reply	Why am I wrong? Because the Bible says so. Why am I wrong? Because the Bible says so. Where does the Bible say I'm wrong? Well, if I'd read the Bible, I'd know. But I have read the Bible and I don't know. loop ================================================= Oh, so now I can find the answer in the Quran, too. But you are still unable or unwilling (it's a *SIN*!!!) to point out the chapter and verse. You do know that the Bible is broken down to books and chapters and verses. Of course you do. Even someone who's read the Bible like I have knows that. And since what you're saying is in the Bible (so you say), then it should be referencable by book, chapter and verse. From the King James version. Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth." 2 Kings 6:4 "So he went with them. And when they came to Jordan, they cut down wood." See how easy it is? Damn. Now I have The Pet Shop Boys' "It's a Sin" going through my head.
Post #43,843 by imric 6/28/02 6:13:43 PM Reply	Oh, I can prove you wrong without 'saying' his name. Exodus 20 And God spake all these words, saying, 2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. 3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me. 4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. 5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; 6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments. 7 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain. Notice: The LORD thy God. Not used as a proper noun. Imric's Tips for Living Paranoia Is a Survival Trait Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised... Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
Post #43,849 by Brandioch 6/28/02 7:19:48 PM Reply	How did it get printed if it's a sin to print it? Okay, how did the verse with the name of the god of the Christians make it through all those copies of the Bible (2000 years old) if it was a sin to "say" it? Fascinating. As for "thy God" not being a proper noun, you're quoting from your holy book. Now, which god is "thy God" referencing in your holy book? "One nation, under God" But you don't see how the reference is the same? "One nation, under God" uses "God" as a proper noun. The name of the god of the Christians. It was put in there to differentiate our indoctrination oath from the indoctrination oaths of the "Godless Communists" with whom we were engaged in the "Cold War". The chapter you quoted, and all throughout your holy book, capitalizes anything refering to the god of the Christians. "Him", "His" and so forth. This is because it is your holy book about your god. It also capitalizes "Son" when refering to God's Son, Jesus (John, 3:16). For reference, check out how "god" is capitalized when refering to Zeus or Thor in historical texts. Here's a link to Bulfinch's. [link\|http://www.bulfinch.org/fables/bull1a.html\|gods]
Post #44,167 by CRConrad 7/1/02 10:18:21 PM Reply	If it begins with a G (not g), then yes, it IS "a name"! And you probably know very well that the reason for this is that God's "real name" isn't supposed to be used -- some old Jewish Yahweh taboo -- so in effect the ordinary word 'god' _HAS BECOME_, in Western culture "the name" God. F'rinstance, you didn't wonder which God the first occurence of the word "God" in the previous sentence referred to, did you? Then again, the Muslims have their own taboos... Prominent among them, AFAIK, a prohibition against translating the Koran into languages other than Arabic. (A way to impose cultural homogeneity by having all prospective converts learn the language, an effect like the Catholic Church's insistence on using Latin in medieval Europe -- only more pronounced, since the Muslims were more for having people read their Book for themselves than Europe, where the Catholic priests read it to their parishioners -- probably more useful than harmful in both cases, for simplifying long-distance trade and other contacts.) Thus, the Muslim God was referred to only in Arabic, and therefore "his name" came to be 'Allah'. So while it may be (or at least originally have been) true that "'Allah' is just the word for 'god' in Arabic", there has been an "in effect" change there too, so in effect the opposite view, that "'Allah' is the name of the Muslim God" has become at least somewhat true, too. But still, it doesn't matter whether you, Imric, or Brandioch is more right than wrong on this particular sub-sub-issue of Allah -- on the original sub-issue of "God" referring to the (Judeo-)Christian God, Brandioch is fucking obviously right: If it were just a noun, a god, any which one -- then it would be written with a lower-case 'g'. Furthermore, even if you somehow manage to wriggle out of that (or rather, just refuse to admit defeat), on the original MAIN issue Brandioch is basically right (or IOW, far more right than wrong): Phrasing like "One nation under [g/G]od" is obviously religiously discriminatory. "What, 'under [g/G]od', singular?!? Why just one??? And which* one of them?!? I thought this was 'One nation under' Odin and Thor and Frigg!!!"* Obviously discriminatory to all polytheist beliefs. What, are they somehow less "equal"? Christian R. Conrad Microsoft is a true reflection of Bill Gates' personality - the sleaziest, most unethical, ugliest little rat's ass the world has seen unto this time. -- [link\|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=42971\|Andrew Grygus]
Post #43,821 by Silverlock 6/28/02 4:13:47 PM Reply	Fill in the blank Jehova, Yahweh, Tetragrammaton. Take your pick. "God" as defined in the dictionary refers to the supernational being that is the object of worship of any of a number of monotheistic religions. You're wrong. "If you run Windows and read Email, You Have the Klez!" -Andrew Grygus
Post #43,824 by Brandioch 6/28/02 4:51:54 PM Reply	Cool. I'll use "Tetragrammaton". Oooooh. It doesn't seem to be in the New Testament of the King James Bible. Wanna know how many times "God" appears though? Unless you're claiming that the name of the god of the Christians is not recorded in the holy book of the Christians. And "Yahweh" seems to be found a lot more in Jewish religion than Christianity. Well, I could go on, but why bother? Yes, you are correct in the dictionary definition of "god" (note the capitalization. "god" is, accourding to the dictionary, a noun. "cat" is a noun. My cat likes tuna. Note that "cat" is not capitalized in that sentence. Every noun can further be classified as common or proper. A proper noun has two distinctive features: 1) it will name a specific (usually a one-of-a-kind) item, and 2) it will begin with a capital letter no matter where it occurs in a sentence. Note the specification of the capital letter. "One nation, under God" My cat likes tuna. Your dictionary definition for "god" is correct for the noun "god". You did not define the proper noun "God". Again, note capitalization.
Post #43,827 by imric 6/28/02 4:58:14 PM 6/28/02 5:00:29 PM Reply	ROFL - I suppose "Him" is His name then , too? And - BTW, Muslims "Him", "His", etc. as well. Just to round out your education. Imric's Tips for Living Paranoia Is a Survival Trait Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised... Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win. Edited by imric June 28, 2002, 05:00:29 PM EDT Expand All History
Post #43,832 by Brandioch 6/28/02 5:06:27 PM Reply	Buy yourself a dictionary. You left off "Creator". You have a flaw in your logic. Who does "Him" refer to? Who does "His" refer to? Him seems to be, accourding to the dictionary, a pronoun. Accourding to the dictionary, "god" is a noun. While "God" is a proper noun. Are you proposing a class of "proper pronouns"? Or do you capitalize "Him" when refering to Vishna?
Post #43,831 by Silverlock 6/28/02 5:03:10 PM Reply	The picking of (imaginary) nits You focus on the capitalization. The dictionary I refernced did indeed distinguish between the caps and non-caps versions. The definition I praphrased was for the cpaitalized one. You are still wrong. And in case you hadn't noticed, the Christian bible includes a section called "The Old Testament" In that section is a story about someone named Moses. You could look it up if you feel inclined, but the point here is that Moses asks 'God' what his 'name' is. Here is a [link\|http://www.jewfaq.org/name.htm\|link] that may clarify matters. "If you run Windows and read Email, You Have the Klez!" -Andrew Grygus
Post #43,833 by Brandioch 6/28/02 5:11:09 PM Reply	Awww, so it is dueling dictionaries then? The dictionary I refernced did indeed distinguish between the caps and non-caps versions. So, why don't you post the non-caps definition? Hmmmmmm? Do that and you'll see my point about establishing a religion. Oh, and your link was to "Judaism 101: The Name of God" Judaism. Jew. You know, somehow I just don't think Ike was thinking "Jew" when he endorsed that.
Post #43,870 by Silverlock 6/28/02 11:19:45 PM Reply	The weakest link You point out the 'Jewishness' of my link, Ummm, wasn't Christ a Jew? Isn't the Old Testament the book of the Jews? Isn't it included in christian bibles? Not sure I see any point being made here. Forgetting your trip away from logic-land, let's continue- A few links for you [link\|http://www.encyclopedia.com/html/section/god_conceptionsofgod.asp\|Generic] definition of 'God' Extract The general conception of God may be said to be that of an infinite being (often a personality but not necessarily anthropomorphic) who is supremely good, who created the world, who knows all and can do all, who is transcendent over and immanent in the world, and who loves humanity. By the majority of Christians God is believed to have lived on earth in the flesh as Jesus (see Trinity ). In the Hebrew Bible the concept of God is not a unified one. The attitude of believers to this apparent inconsistency has generally been that God, unchanging, revealed Himself more and more to Israel. A link that focuses on the "name" aspect. [link\|http://www.encyclopedia.com/html/section/god_namesforgod.asp\|URL] Extract- It is generally not possible to tell from English translations of the Bible what was the exact form of the name of God in the original. In Islam, the name of God is Allah . Credit to you, some do consider 'God' as the name of god. Seems to be that the only ones who do this, though, are [link\|http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608x.htm\|Catholics]. Not Catholic are you? If so, the argument is over and you win by divine right. Extract= God can variously be defined as: * the proper name of the one Supreme and Infinite Personal Being, the Creator and Ruler of the universe, to whom man owes obedience and worship; * the common or generic name of the several supposed beings to whom, in polytheistic religions, Divine attributes are ascribed and Divine worship rendered; * the name sometimes applied to an idol as the image or dwelling-place of a god. This one pretty much [link\|http://www.bartleby.com/65/go/God.html\|demolishes] your point. Extract- ..divinity of the three great monotheistic religions, Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, as well as many other world religions. See also religion and articles on individual religions. In case the point escapes, the word god/God describes a giant invisible ghost in the sky. It is not the name of a giant invisible ghost in the sky. You are still wrong. Sheesh, arguing over semantics. I quit, you win. Happy? "If you run Windows and read Email, You Have the Klez!" -Andrew Grygus
Post #43,880 by Brandioch 6/29/02 12:55:52 AM Reply	That's a complex question. You point out the 'Jewishness' of my link, Ummm, wasn't Christ a Jew? He was born of Jewish parents. He was trained as a rabbi. Nationalistically, he was a Jew. Whether he was a religious Jew depends upon whether you believe he was the Son of the Jewish God or not. The current Jews do not believe that he was. Or, if he was, he has not yet proven that he was. Anyway. I said that "One nation, under God" refered to the Christian "God". You attempted to refute that with a link to a site on Judaism. Isn't the Old Testament the book of the Jews? Isn't it included in christian bibles? Not sure I see any point being made here. Yep and yep. Yet there are VERY large differences between the Jewish faith and the Christian faith. Just because they share SOME teachings does not mean they are the same. That link is amusing. Allow me to quote: In the Hebrew Bible the concept of God is not a unified one. The attitude of believers to this apparent inconsistency has generally been that God, unchanging, revealed Himself more and more to Israel. But, since the Christian religion is the same as Judaism, right up to the point o Jesus' birth, wouldn't that statement apply to Christianity as well? Does the author realize that the Bible is NOT a distinct work? That it is composed of various stories and such? By different authors. In different locations? At different times? The Christian Bible has been HEAVILY edited. The Apocrypha aren't included in all of them. Your link to that would seem to contradict your earlier statement about them being similar. And I do know what Judaism teaches about the name of God. That's why I chose "Tetragrammaton" as the "name" to search on when you posted it. Tetragrammaton isn't a name of God. It's the name of the construct that is the name of God. It is generally not possible to tell from English translations of the Bible what was the exact form of the name of God in the original. Sure it is. Here's a link. Look at the glyphs at the top of the page. [link\|http://pages.cthome.net/hirsch/tetra.htm\|Here]Note: I never said you'd be able to read it. Credit to you, some do consider 'God' as the name of god. Not Muslims and not Jews. Only Christians consider "God" to be God's name. Seems to be that the only ones who do this, though, are Catholics. Not Catholic are you? If so, the argument is over and you win by divine right. I'd also include Protestants. Nope. I've been christened, but never took communion. God can variously be defined as: And "smith" can be a job or a name or a verb. Context. This one pretty much demolishes your point. Nope. Again, Smith, smith, and smith. In case the point escapes, the word god/God describes a giant invisible ghost in the sky. It is not the name of a giant invisible ghost in the sky. And "smith" describes one who works metal. Of course, there weren't any smiths named smith. "god" as a noun describes the invisible ghost. "God" as a proper noun is the name of the invisible ghost. You are still wrong. Whatever. I'm still saying that Ike did NOT refer to a generic "god" nor Yahweh nor Allah. Ike refered to the Christian "God". The "God" in "One nation, under God" is the Christian "God". -and- Any organized recitation of the PoA, in a public classroom, during mandatory attendence, is a violation of the separation of Church and State.
Post #43,883 by bepatient 6/29/02 1:03:12 AM Reply	Ike is irrelevent. You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! _{Laurie Anderson} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #43,834 by Ashton 6/28/02 5:18:07 PM Reply	We Pentagrammatonistas are Superior, we see that you see.. And we are very Pleased to see that Our Deity is forever enshrined (just below The $ of course!) as Capitalism's holiest concept. Yes, it is not blasphemous in Our One True Religion to reveal that the Real-Name of Pentagrammaton, Her Blessed Name IS: God May Her Bird of Paradise Fly Up Your Nose, my fellow-Murican Pentagrammatonistas! E Pluribus Unum Pentagrammatoniensis
Post #43,871 by Silverlock 6/28/02 11:23:52 PM Reply	Where do I sign up? "If you run Windows and read Email, You Have the Klez!" -Andrew Grygus
Post #43,876 by Ashton 6/29/02 12:18:32 AM Reply	Many are called__but____few are chastened..
Post #43,923 by a6l6e6x 6/29/02 4:49:30 PM Reply	But he Heptagrammatonistas look down on you! :) As I recall, they drink 7-Up. Alex "Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened." -- Winston Churchill (1874-1965)
Post #44,045 by bluke 7/1/02 12:40:45 AM Reply	As a Jew I can say that in English ... I refer to God as God, and therefore God is not just a Christian usage
Post #44,050 by static 7/1/02 1:32:00 AM Reply	+5 Informative. :-) "Ah. One of the difficult questions."
Post #44,088 by Brandioch 7/1/02 10:40:42 AM Reply	:) Not just Christian. But "YWHY" is not used by the Christians. They use "God". More boolean. Imagine a set containing all the names by which God is known. Now draw a circle around the name(s) used by modern, US Christians. What do you get?

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