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New I'm actually sympathetic to the guy who brought the case
I see the PoA story as the same kind of thing as a moment of silence, or a student-led prayer in a school. I used to think, "Well, as long as the school isn't enforcing any particular type of belief ... "

But then I read some stories from the bible belt. Jewish students; atheists; foreign students from eastern cultures who prcticed Taoism, Bhuddism, Hinduism; all receiving death threats because they chose not to stand and recite The Lord's Prayer in class, or before the football game.

While the constitution only specifies that they state may not support or establish a religion, when the state (or its agent, the school) sees that the majority is trying to impose its religious views on a minority while under state auspices, I think the state has an affirmative duty to protect the rights of the minority.

Does this mean I don't think City Hall can put out a manger scene near Christmas? No. No one will be singled out for not going to look at it. But at the same time, if there is a manger scene, then other faiths should be allowed to put up displays honoring their own sacred stories.

If I were in California, and my child didn't want to recite the PoA (or just the "under God" part), I would hope she could use it as a teaching point. When other students ask why she doesn't recite it, she can explain why. Maybe get them thinking about it. I have even read stories about teachers teaching this very lesson when students ask about it.

However, in the bible belt this could be dangerous. If I lived there I would hope someone in a more tolerant part of the country would do exactly what this father has done.
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Microsoft offers them the one thing most business people will pay any price for - the ability to say "we had no choice - everyone's doing it that way." -- [link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=38978|Andrew Grygus]
New Yeah.. after all the etymology dancing about -
there's a considerable reservoir of Murican viciousness about Anyone who 'isn't a part of My group'. Exactly as in the examples you mention, particularly the "moment of silence" patently obvious ploy.

Especially with kids! whose Greatest fear is to be left-out of (anything). (And even to 'protest' the status quo -?- there are Rulez for proper rebel attire!)

In a nation of sheep: Not-reciting is tantamount to getting spray-canned Black.

Rest case.


Ashton
New Matter of fact
I never really liked the "One Nation, Under God" part anyway. Despite my logical quibblings with Brandioch, I don't think that religion should share ANY connection with government. Power corrupts - and I think it's been shown through histery that religious authorities are not immune.

Imric's Tips for Living
  • Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
  • Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
  • Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
New Kinda figgered that
the well-travelled Panhandler J would have heard about all the weasel-words from the various folks whose allegiance is to an er Him (and screw.. the 'us' which hang out umm temporally..)
Or at least heard enough to know which sort you Wouldn't want to have a finger on a Govt trigger (?) :-\ufffd

Recall? Language was invented that men may disguise their thoughts from one another



Ashton
Anything to do with -lingual must be about Sex.
New ObSentient LRPDism: The (LoTR) Ring Rhyme. :-)

"Ah. One of the difficult questions."

     Words fail me. - (Brandioch) - (143)
         They don't fail me - (rsf) - (4)
             I can respect their political ideology. - (Brandioch)
             The Declaration of Independence is UnConsititutional - (ChrisR) - (2)
                 Good thing it was a 'Press Release' - (imric)
                 We covered this elsewhere... - (jb4)
         There is no avoiding the problem. - (static) - (5)
             IIRC - originally the idea was to use 'Providence" - (Ashton) - (3)
                 Something else you reminded me of. - (static) - (2)
                     I guess that, we might find that development to be - (Ashton)
                     Unthinkable ~700 years ago; 1000, quite thinkable, AFAICS. - (CRConrad)
             Re: There is no avoiding the problem. - (wharris2)
         CNN polls oxymoron - (SpiceWare) - (131)
             Re: CNN polls oxymoron - (bepatient) - (130)
                 So you'd support a bill for "One nation, under Allah"? - (Brandioch) - (41)
                     Re: So you'd support a bill for "One nation, under Allah"? - (bepatient) - (40)
                         If it doesn't matter, then why does it matter? - (Brandioch) - (39)
                             ahh... - (bepatient) - (38)
                                 You can't just say it, can you? "God" == "Allah" - (Brandioch) - (37)
                                     That statement is false. - (imric) - (32)
                                         "God" != "god" - (Brandioch) - (31)
                                             Uh. Vishnu is a God. - (imric) - (30)
                                                 "a God". Pay careful attention to the "a" there. - (Brandioch) - (29)
                                                     So what? - (imric) - (28)
                                                         You missed it. - (Brandioch) - (27)
                                                             Have you asked a Muslim this? - (imric) - (26)
                                                                 Allah is to Muslims as __________ is to Christians. - (Brandioch) - (25)
                                                                     Insist that God is a name all you want. - (imric) - (8)
                                                                         To quote you "look in the Bible". - (Brandioch) - (6)
                                                                             Nope. Wrong again. - (imric) - (5)
                                                                                 Look up "circular reference". - (Brandioch) - (4)
                                                                                     Confusing levels of reference - (imric) - (3)
                                                                                         Why am I wrong? Because the Bible says so. - (Brandioch) - (2)
                                                                                             Oh, I can prove you wrong - (imric) - (1)
                                                                                                 How did it get printed if it's a sin to print it? - (Brandioch)
                                                                         If it begins with a G (not g), then yes, it IS "a name"! - (CRConrad)
                                                                     Fill in the blank - (Silverlock) - (12)
                                                                         Cool. I'll use "Tetragrammaton". - (Brandioch) - (11)
                                                                             ROFL - I suppose "Him" is His name then , too? - (imric) - (1)
                                                                                 Buy yourself a dictionary. - (Brandioch)
                                                                             The picking of (imaginary) nits - (Silverlock) - (4)
                                                                                 Awww, so it is dueling dictionaries then? - (Brandioch) - (3)
                                                                                     The weakest link - (Silverlock) - (2)
                                                                                         That's a complex question. - (Brandioch) - (1)
                                                                                             Ike is irrelevent. -NT - (bepatient)
                                                                             We Pentagrammatonistas are Superior, we see that you see.. - (Ashton) - (3)
                                                                                 Where do I sign up? -NT - (Silverlock) - (1)
                                                                                     Many are called__but____few are chastened.. -NT - (Ashton)
                                                                                 But he Heptagrammatonistas look down on you! :) - (a6l6e6x)
                                                                     As a Jew I can say that in English ... - (bluke) - (2)
                                                                         +5 Informative. :-) -NT - (static)
                                                                         :) Not just Christian. - (Brandioch)
                                     Cool... - (bepatient) - (3)
                                         Is it History or English you failed? - (Brandioch) - (2)
                                             Congress shall... - (ChrisR) - (1)
                                                 We covered that in a different thread. :) - (Brandioch)
                 The more I think about this, the less I understand - (Silverlock) - (82)
                     It isn't unConstitutional. - (Brandioch) - (81)
                         Uh huh. - (imric) - (80)
                             Not irrelevent. - (Brandioch) - (78)
                                 Wrong. - (imric) - (77)
                                     Well, please violate that rule right now. - (Brandioch) - (76)
                                         Oh, I won't. - (imric) - (65)
                                             I didn't think you would. - (Brandioch) - (64)
                                                 Now you ARE manufacturing data. - (imric) - (10)
                                                     "I can not tell you that name for it would be a Sin!" - (Brandioch) - (9)
                                                         I did identify it. - (imric) - (8)
                                                             I asked you to post it. Can you understand "post it"? - (Brandioch) - (7)
                                                                 Ok. Insist on 'winning' this 'debate'. - (imric) - (6)
                                                                     How many chances do you want? - (Brandioch) - (4)
                                                                         You have read the Bible? - (imric) - (3)
                                                                             So the name of God is "Lord"? - (Brandioch) - (2)
                                                                                 Note. - (imric) - (1)
                                                                                     thy servant, thy hand, thy words. NOT A PRONOUN! - (Brandioch)
                                                                     So, what do you *call* Him? What letter is he filed under,.. - (CRConrad)
                                                 I'll answer. - (static) - (52)
                                                     Gracias - a thoughtful clarification. Finally. - (Ashton)
                                                     I'll use this forum as my example. :) - (Brandioch) - (47)
                                                         Maybe the thread was worth the trouble.. - (Ashton) - (46)
                                                             Yup. - (Brandioch) - (45)
                                                                 Nah. - (imric) - (44)
                                                                     However one slices it - (Ashton) - (1)
                                                                         Yup. -NT - (imric)
                                                                     So you keep saying. - (Brandioch) - (41)
                                                                         Static posted the Chapter and verse - (bepatient) - (40)
                                                                             You just can't get enough of me. - (Brandioch) - (39)
                                                                                 Its simply because I love you - (bepatient) - (22)
                                                                                     The point escapes you, yet again. - (Brandioch) - (21)
                                                                                         Becuase you failed... - (bepatient) - (20)
                                                                                             "Straw Man" may not be invariably correct an - (Ashton) - (2)
                                                                                                 Disappointed - (bepatient) - (1)
                                                                                                     Blessed art those who expect nothing - (Ashton)
                                                                                             "Research"? You are an idiot. - (Brandioch) - (11)
                                                                                                 ... - (bepatient) - (10)
                                                                                                     That's post #1. - (Brandioch) - (9)
                                                                                                         Self-appointed... - (bepatient) - (8)
                                                                                                             >logic< isn't Reason - (Ashton) - (1)
                                                                                                                 Add a debate class to that and I'm all for it. - (Brandioch)
                                                                                                             Let me go over the criteria AGAIN. - (Brandioch) - (5)
                                                                                                                 Its really no effort... - (bepatient) - (4)
                                                                                                                     Tell me why and adult would refuse to post it. - (Brandioch) - (3)
                                                                                                                         Why are you talking about me? - (bepatient) - (2)
                                                                                                                             NOW you're avoiding it?!? - (Brandioch) - (1)
                                                                                                                                 Whatever. - (bepatient)
                                                                                             Sorry, BeeP, but you're wrong on both counts. - (CRConrad) - (4)
                                                                                                 Rofl - (bepatient) - (3)
                                                                                                     Quit the stupid laughter; it's still just not all that funny - (CRConrad) - (2)
                                                                                                         Certainly it is.... - (bepatient) - (1)
                                                                                                             Sorry about the imbalance, but... - (CRConrad)
                                                                                 There is an error in your argument. - (static) - (15)
                                                                                     You'll note that your reference - (Ashton) - (6)
                                                                                         I had to chose something. - (static) - (5)
                                                                                             You don't live over here, do you? :) - (Brandioch) - (4)
                                                                                                 Recent? - (ChrisR) - (1)
                                                                                                     In my day, people respected their elders! - (Brandioch)
                                                                                                 Church vs State. - (static) - (1)
                                                                                                     How about a diode? - (Brandioch)
                                                                                     Could be. - (Brandioch) - (7)
                                                                                         What? Never a pair of Jehovah's Witnesses at your door? :) -NT - (a6l6e6x) - (1)
                                                                                             Not in YEARS. - (Brandioch)
                                                                                         I'd like to make some distinctions. - (static) - (2)
                                                                                             Agreed. - (Brandioch) - (1)
                                                                                                 We'll have to differ. - (static)
                                                                                         Uh... "God is a four-letter word", I think. - (CRConrad) - (1)
                                                                                             Mhy speling sux. - (Brandioch)
                                                     Nice of you to agree with Brandishim's original point. - (CRConrad) - (2)
                                                         Hello Christian. - (static) - (1)
                                                             Point? Just the first line (never mind why). Hi yerself! :-) -NT - (CRConrad)
                                         God, god, and gods - (ChrisR) - (9)
                                             Allah is to Muslims as _________ is to Christians. - (Brandioch) - (5)
                                                 Allah is to Arabic Speakers as God is to English speakers - (ChrisR) - (4)
                                                     Not quite. - (Brandioch) - (3)
                                                         The question is nonsensical because you... - (ChrisR) - (2)
                                                             No I'm not. - (Brandioch) - (1)
                                                                 I think it's as obvious as, what is *meant* when a - (Ashton)
                                             "it intentionally offends those who fall outside of this - (Ashton)
                                             "One nation under glowing spooky stuff" -NT - (tablizer) - (1)
                                                 Yeah... Big glowing UFOs covered in OOP-turds, you mean? :-) -NT - (CRConrad)
                             Stop calling it a pronoun, please. It isn't. -NT - (CRConrad)
                 I'm actually sympathetic to the guy who brought the case - (drewk) - (4)
                     Yeah.. after all the etymology dancing about - - (Ashton) - (3)
                         Matter of fact - (imric) - (2)
                             Kinda figgered that - (Ashton) - (1)
                                 ObSentient LRPDism: The (LoTR) Ring Rhyme. :-) -NT - (static)

Aim for the flattop!
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