I could not disagree more vehemently.

Post #389,312 by mmoffitt 5/9/14 2:28:09 PM Reply	I could not disagree more vehemently. I reject your assertion that it's "rational" to "fear the other" and that rationality in any area focuses on "our selfish motivations and results." Concern over selfish motivations and results evaporates with sufficient rational thought. Emphasis Mine. Protect our kids, fuck everyone else's, unless we are directly connected, and then include them in our sphere of caring. That's the whole point, isn't it? If it is only through connections that we can find meaning, is it not irrational to work against the establishment of those connections? I think pretty clearly it is. A lack of empathy to humanity in general (which doesn't really make sense, since one can only truly be empathetic to individuals) is, in any case, not the rational result of our evolution. Human beings achieved dominance only through co-operation. This idyllic American notion of "fierce independence" and "self made man" is an illusion which is useful in a capitalist system. That you can hold that a lack of empathy is the rational result of evolution suggests (to me at least) that your thinking has been corrupted by the socio-economic system in which you were raised.
Post #389,314 by crazy 5/9/14 3:00:16 PM Reply	Please explain which doesn't really make sense, since one can only truly be empathetic to individuals Individuals you know?
Post #389,317 by mmoffitt 5/9/14 3:18:58 PM Reply	Sorry, I should have said I don't know what it means. I can understand being sympathetic to the wants, needs, pain, etc. of a group of people (read: humanity in general) but I don't understand what means being empathetic to a group of people. Here's a good contrast of the two terms as I understand them and why I said what I did above. Both empathy and sympathy are feelings concerning other people. Sympathy is literally 'feeling with' - compassion for or commiseration with another person. Empathy, by contrast, is literally 'feeling into' - the ability to project one's personality into another person and more fully understand that person. Sympathy derives from Latin and Greek words meaning 'having a fellow feeling'. The term empathy originated in psychology (translation of a German term, c. 1903) and has now come to mean the ability to imagine or project oneself into another person's position and experience all the sensations involved in that position. You feel empathy when you've "been there", and sympathy when you haven't. http://dictionary.re...language/d23.html How does one "project oneself" into a multitude of individuals? Isn't that in itself a tad bigoted? I mean, if I say I can pull that off for a whole group am I not (at least in some sense) saying "they're all like that, they all did that, they all feel this way or that, etc."?
Post #389,320 by crazy 5/9/14 4:55:50 PM Reply	You can't. I have. That is what a large dose of an empathetic drug does. It amps up those exact circuits. And once those pathways open up, they don't close down again. I feel the pain and joy of others, those that I've not even met but can observe, in a way that most people will shield from. Even those that I do not like, that have given me reason to despise, if I am exposed to them suffering, it hurts. Both in person, in video, and any other manner of communication that allows for it. It is incredibly painful and incredibly joyous. And it has taught me much.
Post #389,341 by mmoffitt 5/10/14 12:45:48 PM Reply	You say you can. I remain unconvinced. From my POV, what you feel can most precisely be defined as a drug induced delusion. Your view appears to be that your experiences are genuine and permanent. I think that's our disagreement in a nutshell. It's not that I think it is impossible for me to be wrong, but I do think (and have always felt) that feelings, thoughts, opinions and experiences arising from the non-therapeutic use of psycho-active medications are not as genuine as those feelings, thoughts, opinions and experiences arising in the absence of mind altering substances (pot, alcohol, acid, whatever). That will no doubt sound judgmental to you, which will cause you to think that I still believe you should be punished. That's not the case at all. You will never believe your experiences aren't real and I will never believe your experiences are real. That's the long and the short of it and we will never agree, so I don't think further discussion is warranted.
Post #389,342 by crazy 5/10/14 1:35:37 PM Reply	Silly, feelings aren't "real" Perfectly aware of that. I spent a lifetime of having a certain attitude. I seemed (based on posting history) pretty damn close to yours. It centered on a level of selfishness and personal hard work and responsibility. And if someone else didn't measure up capability or effort wise, fuck'em. You may claim otherwise as you rail against the machine, but you've made clear that the collapse of society (including protecting your home and daughters with weapons from the inevitable looters) is better than what we have now. I disagree. Way more pain that way than simply making what we have better, way more death and privation, but you don't see it. Part of that was an inability to feel based on whatever others felt. 100% rational. No mirror neurons taking control, they were simply there for analysis. This served me very well, in society, responsibility, family, etc. I did what had to be done, and if it hurt others, well, sorry, but that's the way the world worked. And then a drug induced "fantasy" showed me the error of my ways. I felt (oh my god, not feelings, can't have those affect your thinking) the level of pain that the current society inflicts upon the vast majority of people, and then decided that whenever possible, I should not add to their level of pain and mitigate wherever possible. I picked up a bit of personal responsibility for it. Note, a large portion of the housing crisis and financial collapse of the last 10 years is in my lap, so I bear a bit more than most. You grabbed the dictionary definition of empathy, which you don't understand, and consider grandiose, as straw man to argue against. Since you haven't experienced it, and fight against the concept, it is clear it is meaningless to you. As it was once to me. Go listen to Hemispheres by Rush (have the words handy and read along) for a far better explanation than I am capable of. I needed a better balance, and it took the drug to put me there. So, we are at an impasse. It can't be any other way. I wish you well, since your pain would be mine, and it is in my self interest to avoid it. I'm still a selfish bastard, but I recognize why it is in my (and all people's) best interest not to be.
Post #389,343 by Another Scott 5/10/14 8:11:11 PM Reply	Speaking of Hemispheres. My old boss was really into Krishnamurti for a while. And he (my boss) had a bit of an epiphany after reading "Drawing on the Right Side of the Brain" - http://www.amazon.co...ve/dp/1585429201/ . Our brain has lots of ways to look at and try to understand our environment. I haven't read it myself, but I think I got the gist of the book from talking with him. As a kid I was into drawing for a while. I remember once working on a drawing of Michelangelo's Pietà from a picture. It suddenly dawned on me to draw the shadows rather than the boundaries. (It didn't turn out too badly, but I gave up on it before it was finished.) Looking at things and seeing the shadows rather than the thing itself can be kinda relaxing - it supposedly uses a different side of your brain. Similarly, in high school I was at a pool party and bored and ended up looking at the light dancing off the waves in the pool for quite a while... And in a college lab experiment we were doing the Millikan Oil Drop Experiment - where you have to time some tiny oil drops as they fall some distance in a pitch-black room, the time depending on how much charge they pick up as they move in a capacitor. If you looked directly at them, it was hard. If you relaxed your eyes as if you were staring into space, it was much easier. What our "thinking man" part of our brain thinks is reality is only a tiny piece of the sensations and experiences we pick-up, usually subconsciously, every day. Hang in there, you two. :-) Cheers, Scott.
Post #389,351 by Ashton 5/11/14 4:15:24 AM Reply	The parent-topic to this brouhaha is quite more Interesting, I think: Consciousness.. Itself. I congratulate you (belatedly, for all circumstances, and fwiw) upon possessing the tenacity to successfully break-through that which seems almost a primordial-fog, fed largely by industrial-think and all that negative emotional-baggage it spawned, along its path of dismantling any true sense of 'democracy' ever occurring. (Many 'students' would envy that feat, as inculcated mindsets are most insidious, being daily reinforced.) You will always be within a small minority, I think you realize. Because you are both articulate and ..forthcoming, you'd be an "entitled" test-subject for some researchers. The importance of 'forthcoming' is related to the demands of personal-daily-lying, as follows from the tenets of vulture-capitalism (as you've described quite neatly enough.) I'd add only that, Murica (maybe since its inception) has been a Proof of one koan: Language was invented that men might disguise their thoughts from each other. Nowhere is that more indubitable as in: any Office (bizness or political.) Lying-animals we may be, in many circumstances, but Muricans are inculcated incessantly, from tyke-hood. [I grew up here, y'see?] As to the thread, its scope limited (via Mike's 'Certainty-reflex'?) that such effects as you describe are entirely a Â(chemicals) thus persistence of any insights is bogus [if THIS then THAT as in, hmmm.. coding?] Â for mechanical or human machines: Others have experienced this alteration of consciousness (pure and simple: that) sans any chemicals whatsoever--predominantly via First: realizing they were living-crippled (as many individual tales there, as Â people); Second: discovering/being advised by cohorts, that a teacher (of meditation and similar means of calming our natural, untutored 'monkey-minds') could help. Next: with/without a teacher, doing the Work of (finally) testing, watching inner mind processes, to a purpose. (know thyself? or by any other words.) Lastly: forever next, find selves immune to the stimulus/response games which underlie our Status-seeking/greed for Power-as-Money, and related mental disabilities. Clearly some.. experience a change in consciousness (varying by all we can imagine about others' 'psyches') while under some chemical aid. When the molecules have gone, the 'insights' (if it was like that) or new-Purposefulness? may have greatly diminished. Maybe the state can be re-produced by another dose sometime or maybe not. It's reasonable to call these experiences 'drug related'--and as transitory--even knowing little of the highly-individual other particulars. Others, like yourself do Not, subsequently revert to their nominal state of consciousness, long after the molecules have left. (If the above is News to anyone (?) that person (even in Murica) has not been paying much attention to anything outside the daily strait-jacket of me-Me-Mine!, I'd think.) Esalen (Institute) in Big Sur CA (overlooking the Pacific) has been a focal point for people across a huge spectrum, from paupers to luminaries--each for own reasons--attempting to learn more about their very-Own psyches. CA just seems to synthesize?/innovate much better than most other States, in matters about 'States'-of-consciousness (transliterated for American vocabularies.) Truly sorry that mere-fucking random-Chance threw you into the maw of the Great [compartmentalized-Set] of State-punishments prescribed for any personal science-based experiments: outside of that antediluvian [Puritan box]. But you now possess quite more insight into the Tragedy we're living-within--than anyone with jingoistic blinkers super-glued on. Hope that that priceless new awareness (of ancient lessons, long-ago ridiculed here--necessarily!--so that financial schemes could be cleansed of their patently-criminal shame) can maintain your equanimity. It seems that, you are entirely-within-Theater next, where the management expects 'correct' answers as must be acted-out via a prescribed script: in which there can be no ad-libs whatsoever (?) You can Do this! Luck on the elocution and decent rehearsal-prep.. I'm reminded of the UC prof. Ernst Cantorovich (sp?) in McCarthy days, whose tract contained the death-knell 'sentence' for Loyalty Oaths everywhere: A coerced oath is invalid on its face! Eventually he (+others afflicted, who would not Sign) Won, but many had careers ruined by clones of the troglodytes on today's 'news' and ever since the Shogunate. I see yours as a parallel circumstance of timing, too: worldwide, there is growing comprehension of what these psycho-active substances (and many suspected/untested yet) might well do to alleviate the misery --unrelieved by our inadequate 'talk-therapies'--for millions worldwide. We will be last, of course.
Post #389,350 by crazy 5/10/14 10:51:01 PM Reply	Also, "non-therapeutic use" is a kicker People (pychs, therapists, etc, ya know, medical professionals) would LOVE to use MDMA and LSD and psilocybin for studies and therapy but due to political issues, they are scheduled as untouchable. No medical use allowed. So there is a catch-22 that will never be resolved, and you get to declare victory. Which in turn means only those that are willing to break the law can gain any benefit, so you get to damn them.
Post #389,352 by Ashton 5/11/14 6:31:21 AM Reply	If fundies prevail in '16, we'll return to coat-hangers for HALF the dis-USA population: simply because so few Muricans have. the. wits. to comprehend the al punte meaning-of: If men could get pregnant, abortion would be a sacrament. --Zyklon-B, small book published in early ... 1970s! I'm sure that most anyone here could compile (maybe for some contest with a MB-Pro as prize?) a list of 100 blatant-Idiocies, of every-day sort and of long standing--to whose presence we have all become inured. [YOU are enmeshed in ... several of these common-daily-idiocies--Right?] I could be: tomorrow. Murican 'justice' re most victimless 'crimes' has become LUDICROUSLY stupid/hypocritical, ergo Evil. More and more resembling Germany's intentionally-bogus ones of the '30s ... say? No one of these is a hit-the-barricades-Tomorrow trigger. But cumulatively, are we not now nearing a genuine Inflection-point in the zeitgeist, such that authentic forces for Radical--as in Root--changes shall soon manifest, with Power behind the Forces? (Else: why bother: exhortation and many magnificently-sensible essays have produced no consensus at-all visible/or, at least their effects--if-any? --lie buried beneath the perpetual noise of the corrupt media, all $$-driven and disconnected from most actual people.) 'Course, forever shall thousands of faint voices be heard intoning the mantra.. But I just haven't the time! to attend a march/rally/Happening/can't get the time off-work.. My wonderment continues unabated, over this One question: How many parents have ever looked long & hard at their kids, one day, while thinking ~ How much? will these children, in a few years ... Despise Me! for having sucked-it-up, taking no Stand on anything.. before or after their birth?? (Sorry.. read more 'news' today than in a while, and it and We ... Suck in so many cowardly-ways. Still.)

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