Post #387,641
3/17/14 12:14:14 PM
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Who do these Russians in Crimea think they are?
"We'll continue to make clear to Russia that further provocations will achieve nothing except to further isolate Russia and diminish its place in the world," President Barack Obama said. "The international community will continue to stand together to oppose any violations of Ukrainian sovereignty and territorial integrity, and continued Russia military intervention in Ukraine will only deepen Russia's diplomatic isolation and exact a greater toll on the Russia economy."
http://www.cnn.com/2...ex.html?hpt=hp_c2
Damn it, don't they realize WE, THE CAPITALIST CLASS, are the only ones who get to decide how the globe is carved up. I know this is going to be a wildly unpopular position (and my personal apologies up front to Alex) but there's a part of me that's glad the Russians moved in to secure the Black Sea fleet. There are some very scary people behind the revolution in Kiev.
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Post #387,645
3/17/14 12:49:53 PM
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Serious question:How was the Black Sea Fleet ever threatened
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Post #387,650
3/17/14 2:09:24 PM
3/17/14 2:23:31 PM
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It wasn't.
Immediately. But who knows? Osama Bin Laden and Saddam Hussein were once our allies. We armed, trained and funded them. Looks like we're headed down the very same path in the Ukraine. I'm not saying the majority of the folks in Kiev were scary - far from it. But there was and is a non-trivial number of folks we really don't want to be backing there, imo. The West is (for their own political reasons) downplaying the ultra-Rightists in this situation. The Russians are exaggerating (for their own political reasons) the ultra-Rightists in this situation. It's just that we've got a terrible history of backing people "who hate the Soviets/Russians" while turning a blind eye to the danger of such support and I trust the Russians with their fleet more than I do a bunch of newly empowered ultra-nationalist neo-nazis. I think "jumping immediately to the side that hates Putin" was not a well-reasoned approach. All I'm saying is that the fact our new friends can't get a hold of the Black Sea fleet is not such a bad thing.
Edit: Here's the sort of people I'm talking about.
February 24, 2014 |
As the Euromaidan protests in the Ukrainian capitol of Kiev culminated this week, displays of open fascism and neo-Nazi extremism became too glaring to ignore. Since demonstrators filled the downtown square to battle Ukrainian riot police and demand the ouster of the corruption-stained, pro-Russian President Viktor Yanukovich, it has been filled with far-right streetfighting men pledging to defend their countryÂs ethnic purity.
White supremacist banners and Confederate flags were draped inside KievÂs occupied City Hall, and demonstrators have hoisted Nazi SS and white power symbols over a toppled memorial to V.I. Lenin. After Yanukovich fled his palatial estate by helicopter, EuroMaidan protesters destroyed a memorial to Ukrainians who died battling German occupation during World War II. Sieg heil salutes and the Nazi Wolfsangel symbol have become an increasingly common site in Maidan Square, and neo-Nazi forces have established Âautonomous zones in and around Kiev.
An Anarchist group called AntiFascist Union Ukraine attempted to join the Euromaidan demonstrations but found it difficult to avoid threats of violence and imprecations from the gangs of neo-Nazis roving the square. ÂThey called the Anarchists things like Jews, blacks, Communists, one of its members said. ÂThere werenÂt even any Communists, that was just an insult.Â
ÂThere are lots of Nationalists here, including Nazis, the anti-fascist continued. ÂThey came from all over Ukraine, and they make up about 30% of protesters.Â
http://www.alternet....neo-nazis-ukraine
Edited by mmoffitt
March 17, 2014, 02:23:31 PM EDT
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Post #387,653
3/17/14 2:52:33 PM
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<sigh>
We didn't ally, fund, or train bin Laden. http://en.wikipedia....n_Cyclone#Funding
Saddam wasn't an ally. http://en.wikipedia....n_to_the_conflict (Offering support to Iraq so that Iran didn't win, or as leverage for the Hostages, didn't make Saddam an ally.)
The UK had Hong Kong for nearly 100 years. The US has had Guantanamo for over 100 years. There is nothing in what happened in Kyiv that indicated that Sevastapol was in danger and every reasonable expectation that the lease with the Russians would continue to be honored through 2042 as the agreement states.
Putin (and Max Blumenthal) taking a handful of neo-Nazi kooks and puffing it up as being a threat to Russian residents or the Black Sea fleet sounds eerily reminiscent of the statements about the threat from the Polish cavalry in 1939...
Sure, be skeptical. But don't be ridiculous. You think Angela Merkel supports neo-Nazis?
Cheers,
Scott.
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Post #387,655
3/17/14 4:00:49 PM
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You mean she isn't one?
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Post #387,687
3/18/14 12:21:25 PM
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Back at you.
Saddam worked for the CIA ferchrissakes. He was on their payroll!
Then there's this:
http://media.photobu...videos&sort=1&o=5
A good synopsis on Saddam here: http://www.thirdworl...dden_History.html
Didn't help arm the Mujahadeen? You've got to be joking. Here's a visual for you: https://inquirer.wor...-qaedamujahideen/
Oh, let me guess. None of the arms-for-hostages supplies and none of the dual use technology ever made it to Osama, right?
Exactly how deep are those rose colored glasses you wear?
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Post #387,689
3/18/14 12:31:59 PM
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Read my post, and the linkies, again please. :-)
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Post #387,691
3/18/14 12:33:55 PM
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Wikipedia? That's your sole source? </me falls over>
I give you photographs and you give me wikipedia?
End.Of.Discussion.
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Post #387,695
3/18/14 2:02:52 PM
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Wikipedia has cites. HTH.
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Post #387,656
3/17/14 4:10:10 PM
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Counterpoint.
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Post #387,670
3/17/14 11:18:37 PM
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You're buying into Yanukovych spin.
Take a look at this posting of a Jewish protestor:
http://www.ukieland....idans-protestors/
However, I present myself solely as a Jew, and a religious one at that. I have tens of resistance guards  Georgians, Azerbaijani, Armenians, and Russians who do not even attempt to speak Ukrainian  we have never been intolerant to each other.
You think he might be a Nazi?
Note that SS stands for ÂSpilna Sprava or "Common Cause" in English.
Alex
ÂThere is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.Â
-- Isaac Asimov
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Post #387,686
3/18/14 11:53:46 AM
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One thing I do know.
The first casualty of conflict is truth. Anecdotal evidence is not compelling. I really feel for the Ukrainians. Recall I went to the 4th grade in Kiev. I know that was 40+ years ago but my memories of that time are the fondest of my youth. I wish I had remained in contact with my schoolmates there. In my office right now I have a photo of myself, my little brother and Hubert Humphrey at the opening of the exhibit my dad worked on in Leningrad. Maybe there is still quite a bit of Soviet/Russian apologist in me that I inculcated at ages 9 and 10. That's a fair criticism and one I take under serious advisement.
I've never been a fan of violence anywhere. Well, okay, maybe on Wall Street, but that's a different matter entirely and completely understandable (fascist bastards). I'm just not sure things are as black-and-white as they are painted by the West. I'm equally dubious things are as bleak as the Russians are claiming. Throwing billions of dollars at one side or the other, or worse, offering military support immediately seems dicey to me. To whom is the money going? For what purpose? Unbiased reporting suggests that there is some radical Right involvement (which is to be expected in a power vacuum). I just want us to be careful that we are helping the right folks. We don't have the greatest track record of doing that.
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Post #387,647
3/17/14 12:57:00 PM
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BS! They reneged on Ukraine's nuclear arms agreement.
See the Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances:
https://en.wikipedia...curity_Assurances
The memorandum included security assurances against threats or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Ukraine as well as those of Belarus and Kazakhstan. As a result Ukraine gave up the world's third largest nuclear weapons stockpile between 1994 and 1996.
Ukraine was number 3 nuclear power in the world, after US and Russia. Now they have zip.
Let the Tatars come back to Crimea and the Russians won't be the majority.
There are 11 million ethnic Ukrainians in Russia. Should Ukraine be annexing parts of Russia?
On the fleet base, check out Sochi where the Olympics were held. It's on the Black Sea.
Alex
ÂThere is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.Â
-- Isaac Asimov
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Post #387,651
3/17/14 2:12:13 PM
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I understand that.
While I agree that Russia is far from innocent in this matter, I'm still not comfortable with *all* the allies the Ukrainian revolutionary movement has aligned itself with.
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Post #387,657
3/17/14 6:18:57 PM
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Plan B:
Let the Russians have Crimea, and then sell them (the Crimeans) water and electricity.
Neither of which they've got much of, as I understand it.
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Post #387,658
3/17/14 6:44:24 PM
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Putin seems to have realized that.
http://www.nytimes.c...ne-says.html?_r=0
SIMFEROPOL, Ukraine  Tensions mounted on the eve of a secession referendum here in Crimea as helicopter-borne Russian forces made a provocative incursion just outside the peninsulaÂs regional border to seize a natural gas terminal, while American and European officials prepared sanctions to impose on Moscow as early as Monday.
The military operation by at least 80 troops landing on a slender sand bar just across from CrimeaÂs northeast border seemed part of a broader effort to strengthen control over the peninsula before a referendum Sunday on whether its majority Russian-speaking population wants to demand greater autonomy from Ukraine or break away completely and join Russia. Whatever its tactical goals, the seizure of the terminal sent a defiant message to the United States and Europe and underscored that a diplomatic resolution to RussiaÂs recent takeover of Crimea remains elusive.
[...]
First they came for the gas, then they came for the electricity, then they came for the water...
:-(
Cheers,
Scott.
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Post #387,677
3/18/14 2:58:39 AM
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Money talks, Russkies walk
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Post #387,703
3/18/14 10:28:50 PM
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Boundaries rejiggered
I dislike Putin, and the Crimea takeover reeks of Anschluss (which was not entirely ill-received by Austrians at the time), but considering how freely the West has redrawn national borders in the former Yugoslavia—carving Kosovo out of Serbia, in particular—I think we are obliged to eat this goose with a generous ladling of sauce. There are indications that Putin regards the independence of the remainder of Ukraine as illegitimate. He would be unwise to act upon these impulses, but it would be not merely unwise but mad to mount a military response. Since the Baltic states are, for better or for worse, NATO members, any move to reclaim them (utter folly, as these provinces proved in the event to be bones lodged in the USSR's throat, ultimately setting in train the sequence of events culminating in a fatal choking spasm for Lenin's state) would have to be countered by armed forces. We may hope that matters do not come to this.
And so I find myself flying, if not exactly in formation with mmoffitt, at least along a similar heading. Geopolitics makes strange bedfellows.
cordially,
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Post #387,705
3/18/14 11:13:14 PM
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Putin's take
Disagreeable, but not altogether delusional.
http://www.nytimes.c...imea.html?hp&_r=0
cordially,
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Post #387,751
3/20/14 1:15:37 AM
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I knew a 'relative' of the co-author
of this piece, one Dalyta derVartanyan (a Princess, of her tribe.. I was told.)
She married a physicist I knew, (one whose social graces reminded me of a character in Breakfast at Tiffany's--the geekish '2nd-richest guy' Ms. Golightly was then pursuing.)
(Irrelevant to This 'Vartanyan' ... but I always look for synchroniciity, though--what else is 'memory' good for?)
There aren't enough hours/day for me to make substantial use of the cornucopia of info within The Times--so Thanks for culling this one.
(I met, chatted with one of your ex-Pats way-back--Cinco de Mayo celebration, IIRC. He corrected my impoverished elocution of my fav Russki saying, re. Kapitalichiiskaya.. Cousin?)
I derive from this (artfully concise) article that, much as in the dis-USA, the mythos of Capitalism is in danger of corrupting itsy-South Ossetia, as it has Putin's Russia.
That assumption leads to the obvious: unless/until both S.O. and Russia supersede un-regulated US-vulture-Kapitalismo, re. their social-financial principles:
Nothing useful will be buildable-upon. In either country.
Dunno the Russian word for corruption, but the piece illustrates how it cancels-out even the most sincere offers/actions of assistance.
Just like Here.
One can only empathize with the denizens of both, currently mis-guided 'Nations'. We are such babies, despite all that (unread) History.
{{sigh}}
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Post #387,706
3/18/14 11:13:47 PM
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my take
Putin will grab what he thinks he can get away with. He knows he owns the euro fuel supply and he perceives rightly or wrongly America is in no condition to roll troops at this time. I hope he is smart enough to stay his hand at this time.
If tanks rolled across the Ukraine plains folks would get nervous enough to fire shots and it would escalate badly. The germans have the same fear as the russians of each other and it would get ugly fast. Have a quick boo at Kursk and the battle there during ww2.
A friend of mine now deceased was seconded to the eastern front in ww2 as a driver for a colonel in a tank destroying German airforce battalion. They were using anti aircraft weapons as tank destroyers. he went along to Stalingrad and got a million dollar wound ride out of there. His stories and my extensive reading of the front prior to meeting him makes me realize it could be a horror pit again. All it takes is some minor players to get the lumbering mindless giants involved then katie bar the door.
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 58 years. meep
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Post #387,708
3/19/14 12:55:20 AM
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The Red Army
...ain't what it used to be, and its "field position," as we say in American football, is nothing like as advantageous as it was back when Tom Clancy composed his elaborate fantasies. Western Europe, and even Eastern Europe, need not lie awake with visions of Russian tank battalions rolling over 'em. But if Putin absorbs Ukraine, Belarus, Moldova, etc., this still leaves NATO in a more advantageous strategic position than when the Warsaw Pact was still a going concern.
cordially,
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Post #387,709
3/19/14 2:46:44 AM
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"owns the euro fuel supply"
Not as much as he would like to think, he doesn't.
Remember, the only reason Russia sells fuel to Europe is because they need to subsidise their internal market because the Russian public is, generally speaking, not able to afford it.
If that money tap gets turned off - shit gets real, fast.
And the gas thing gives him no leverage in the UK, because we don't important Russian gas (well, not very much, anyhoo). We do, however, handle an awful lot of Russian money.
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Post #387,716
3/19/14 8:25:36 AM
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Agreed that one has to worry about uncontrolled escalation.
Putin's strength is in getting what he wants by puffing up his muscles without actually fighting a major power. He doesn't want a shooting war with NATO.
I assume he will continue to pressure the Ukraine government and demand that it be weakened (e.g. via the federalism demands). So he'll get his compliant neighbor government again without having the cost and dangers of fighting for it. If Ukraine's government refuses to weaken its independence from the Kremlin in the process of forming a new government, then I expect more "spontaneous demonstrations" demanding that Putin intervene. And more violence, and a greater chance that he'll be "forced" to move in to more of Ukraine the way he did in Crimea. But he hopes it doesn't go that far - the other side will blink first.
If it comes to blows, it won't end well for anyone, least of all the crumbling Russian armed forces. But that doesn't mean either side would have an "easy" victory. It took up to 60,000 troops for Russia to sorta passivate Chechnya - an area with a tiny population. Ukraine has a long and bloody history with the USSR - if they choose to resist, it won't end easily.
Plus, Putin's economy is crashing and Crimea is becoming a basket-case (tourism is drying up for good reason). He doesn't have money for another Afghanistan-like adventure. He doesn't want a shooting war (neither do we of course).
What should we do? I think Obama is right. Economic and political pressure that continues to tighten if he doesn't back down.
My $0.02.
Cheers,
Scott.
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Post #387,720
3/19/14 9:57:56 AM
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Re: escalation and Sochi.
Emphasis Mine.
Sevastopol has been a seat of Russian naval power from the imperial 18th century to the Soviet era, giving its forces access to the Balkans, Mediterranean Sea and Middle East. After the collapse of the Soviet Union, Russia began leasing part of the port from Ukraine. That deal, scheduled to end in 2017, was extended to 2042. The move was heavily criticized by the opposition forces now in power in Kiev.
Although Russia continues to construct a navy base in its own territory in Novorossisk, near Sochi, analysts agree that Sevastopol remains the navyÂs preferred base in the Black Sea region because of its size, location and infrastructure.
ÂItÂs hard to speculate on motivations, but it may be that one of the main reasons for the (events) in Crimea was, legitimately or not, they thought they might lose the base in Sevastopol, said Dmitry Gorenburg, who researches Russian military reform at the CNA Corporation, an analysis group.
The Black Sea Fleet remains the smallest of RussiaÂs four fleets, and one whose aging ships limit its capabilities. Of the fleetÂs 25 ships, 19 are corvettes and patrol craft, according to an analysis by Christian Le Mière, a researcher with the International Institute for Strategic Studies. Le Mière also counts two destroyers, a pair of frigates, a cruiser and a diesel-electric submarine.
Gorenburg said most ships date to the 1970s, with one of the frigates going back to the Â60s. Thomas Fedyszyn, a researcher at the Naval War College in Rhode Island, offered a similar assessment.
ÂTheyÂve got a smattering of older Russian ships, he said. ÂA couple of them are fairly big  a couple of Russian cruisers and destroyers. But mostly theyÂre fairly small.Â
The fleet remains operational, however. It played a role in the 2008 war with Georgia, when it destroyed GeorgiaÂs small patrol boats, Fedyszyn said. More recently, the fleetÂs flagship, the missile cruiser Moskva, was deployed off the coast of Syria as tensions rose last year.
Russia plans to gradually replace the ships in the coming years, analysts say, with three new frigates, new submarines and an amphibious ship. Gorenburg said the new ships will replace older, outdated vessels and should not increase the size of the fleet.
Even those changes would face restrictions under RussiaÂs basing agreement in Sevastopol, which requires Ukraine approve all ships based in the port or entering it. ThatÂs one more reason compelling Russia to complete its base at Novorossisk, where it faces no restrictions, Le Mière said in his analysis.
The fleet may also need to grow to support a new Mediterranean task force created by Russia last year, noted Fedyszyn, a move that comes as the U.S. increases its own Mediterranean presence with four destroyers in Spain.
ÂThere is certainly some increase going on because Russia is increasing its naval presence in the Mediterranean Sea, he said. ÂIn order to do that, they have to augment their fleet in the Black Sea area.Â
http://www.stripes.c...nterests-1.270904
<dons apologist hat again - or maybe not> Combine the NATO expansion (despite our assurances of no expansion) with the current regime's hostility toward Russia's BSF in Sevastopol with our increased Mediterranean presence and ask yourself, "Who is it that is escalating things in the region?" This is not as simple a situation as you might conclude from relying exclusively on the Western press.
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Post #387,722
3/19/14 11:03:23 AM
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One can always make arguments to justify one's actions.
http://www.cfr.org/a...ances-1994/p32484
[Russia, UK, USA] Confirm the following:
1. The Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the United States of America reaffirm their commitment to Ukraine, in accordance with the principles of the Final Act of the Conference on Security and Cooperation in Europe, to respect the independence and sovereignty and the existing borders of Ukraine;
2. The Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the United States of America reaffirm their obligation to refrain from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Ukraine, and that none of their weapons will ever be used against Ukraine except in self-defence or otherwise in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations;
It's pretty hard to square that with what Putin did.
The Black Sea was a bathtub as far back as 1905 - http://books.google....nned%20in&f=false . If a serious war ever breaks out, Russia's ships there will be stuck. The BSF is a convenient, but transparent, excuse.
FWIW.
Cheers,
Scott.
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Post #387,723
3/19/14 11:20:52 AM
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I'm not saying the Russians are heroes.
Just that we aren't either.
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Post #387,724
3/19/14 11:24:13 AM
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Agreement. But that's not the topic, is it? :-)
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Post #387,727
3/19/14 11:29:03 AM
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Fine. We're picking nits now are we? :0)
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Post #387,729
3/19/14 11:49:38 AM
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That's what we do, especially in this forum! :-)
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Post #387,731
3/19/14 1:11:10 PM
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Ukraine would resist all right
in ww2 partisans fought the germans then continued to fight the soviets well onto the 1950's. Won't be easily pacified
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 58 years. meep
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Post #387,733
3/19/14 3:32:19 PM
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all sorts of sound reasons for behaving rationally
No national leader of sound mind wants a shooting war in Europe, still less a vigorous exchange of démarches between Washington and Moscow conducted over the North Pole. The problem lies with the miscalculations made by men of sound mind (see The Guns of August, and in that connection I do hope that no statesman of note takes it into his head to tour Sarajevo in an open car this summer, which of course marks the centenary of those selfsame opening rounds of The War to End All War).
cordially,
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Post #387,737
3/19/14 5:31:08 PM
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On that note, let us Here embark upon a similar
sane, peaceful means of re-forming our financial and related internecine Forces--without Molotov cocktails either stockpiled or ... thrown.
We need no shooting-war Here, either. Until the disUSA finally faces its own feet-of-clay, no sanctimonious pronouncements of this
or any Sec/State can hide the hypocrisy and just plain disingenuousness. All Around.
Goose/gander whether Sarajevo or Red State/Blue State formal dis-Recognition of each other--as now.
(Yeah, I know.. adolescents never do stop to Think. Until all other useless band-aids fall all the way off.)
Irascibly,
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Post #387,745
3/19/14 9:10:36 PM
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Putin the revanchist
I don't think many Americans can appreciate the sense of dislocation and resentment that Russians of Putin's generation and younger (I know a couple of Russian kids, still in their twenties, who are hypernationalistic) must feel over the developments of the last twenty years, although history may yet vouchsafe the USA something like that enlightenment. The USSR was a big swinging dick prior to its terminal decline. Like the USA, and to an even greater extent, it was geographically and culturally separate and self-sufficient; like the USA it was suffused and besotted with a sense of its own virtue and the inevitability of its historical mission and destiny. These are illusions not lightly surrendered. Since 1991 the Russian Federation, the rump USSR, has been variously ignored and condescended to by capital regnant. Most of its former client states have fled its embrace, and smiling NATO has absorbed some former provinces. Attempts to support its historical allies in Serbia were brushed aside. And now Ukraine is making goo-goo eyes at the EU? Consider how the USA might regard Mexico falling under the sway of Zombie Muammar Gaddafi, or however he spells it when he's not drilling his virgins.
We don't have to like what VVP has done to Ukraine, but we can certainly recognize that he feels altogether justified in conducting his aggression, and that there is a significant and popular grievance underlying his action.
cordially,
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Post #387,746
3/19/14 11:04:05 PM
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Even accepting all of that...
Yes, too little attention was paid to the feelings in Moscow and the downsides of NATO expansion, for the reasons you outline. If this Wikipedia page is accurate, NATO membership was never a majority opinion in the country. But some politicians there (likely with at least some pushing from the USA), certainly were pushing for it.
I didn't realize that Iraq allegations was lurking in the background, too..
http://en.wikipedia....%93NATO_relations
In 2002 relations with the governments of the United States and other NATO countries deteriorated after one of the recordings made during the Cassette Scandal revealed an alleged transfer of a sophisticated Ukrainian defense system to Saddam Hussein's Iraq.[20] At the NATO enlargement summit in November 2002, the NATOÂUkraine commission adopted a UkraineÂNATO Action Plan. President Kuchma's declaration that Ukraine wanted to join NATO (also in 2002) and the sending of Ukrainian troops to Iraq in 2003[20] could not mend relations between Kuchma and NATO.[20] Currently, the Ukrainian Armed Forces are working with NATO in Iraq.[25]
After the Orange Revolution in 2004 Kuchma was replaced by President Viktor Yushchenko [the guy who was poisoned with dioxin] who is a keen supporter of Ukraine's NATO membership.[26] In January 2008 the second Yulia Tymoshenko [the woman just released from prison] cabinet's proposal for Ukraine to join NATO's Membership Action Plan was met with opposition. A petition of over 2 million signatures has called for a referendum on Ukraine's membership proposal to join NATO. The opposition have called for a national referendum to be held on any steps towards further involvement with NATO. In February 2008 57.8% of Ukrainians supported the idea of a national referendum on joining NATO, against 38.6% in February 2007.[27]
Ukrainian governments proposal to join the NATO Membership Action Plan
On January 16, 2008 United States Senator Richard Lugar announced: "Ukrainian President Viktor Yushchenko, Prime Minister Yulia Tymoshenko and Parliamentary Chairman Arseniy Yatsenyuk have signed the statement calling for consideration on Ukraine's entry into the NATO membership action plan at the Bucharest summit."[28]
The Ukrainian parliament headed by chairman Arseniy Yatsenyuk was unable to hold its regular parliamentary session following the decision of the Parliamentary Opposition to prevent the parliament from functioning in a protest against joining NATO. The parliament was blocked from January 25, 2008 [29] till March 4, 2008 (at 29 February 2008 factions leaders agreed on a protocol of mutual understanding).[30] US President George W. Bush and both nominees for President of the United States in the 2008 election, U.S. senator Barack Obama and U.S. senator John McCain, did offer backing to Ukraine's membership of NATO.[31][32][33] Russian reactions were negative.
[...]
Prime Minister Vladimir Putin allegedly declared at a NATO-Russia summit in 2008 that if Ukraine joined NATO his country could contend to annex the Ukrainian East and Crimea.[75]
But even accepting that Putin made his feeling clear years ago, that doesn't give him a pass on what he's done. Euromaidan wasn't about joining NATO.
There have been some recent noises that the EU-Ukraine Association Agreement - http://en.wikipedia....ciation_Agreement - has some sort of secret pre-NATO membership language or something, but I don't see it.
It looks like Putin was pissed off that Ukraine wouldn't be under his economic and political thumb any more. NATO, and "Nazis", were a convenient excuse. Grabbing Crimea wasn't necessary (the ports and bases there were never in danger), but it was a relatively easy way to punish Ukraine and stick his thumb in the eye of the EU and NATO. Grabbing Crimea risks pushing the rest of Ukraine closer to the EU and maybe, eventually, toward even closer relations with NATO (but not membership). So he may come to regret it.
Some (e.g. Lawrence Wilkerson on Chris Hayes's show tonight) are saying that everyone needs to get together, stop talking in apocalyptic language, and agree that Ukraine is a border state that it won't join NATO. Maybe. Talking's good, but Ukraine needs a say on its future. Too much of its recent history has seemingly been overtly dictated by Moscow (poisoning a candidate for head of state isn't subtle) and cold-warriors in DC. However, I don't see Putin feeling that he needs to negotiate anything this soon after "winning" this round.
What happens next is anyone's guess. Already Syria is feeling less constrained since they think that Russia won't pressure them along with the west any more. Maybe that will get worse, or maybe things will change in a few months.
The G8 meeting was to be in Sochi in early June. Maybe after expressing their disgust by not showing up, maybe things will settle down and head back toward normal shortly afterward. But maybe not. The US election season will start heating up a few weeks later, and Putin may think it would be "fun" to cause some trouble so Obama's party has more troubles. Who knows...
Interesting times. :-(
FWIW.
Cheers,
Scott.
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Post #387,748
3/20/14 12:24:42 AM
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delving into a little history
russia has a love hate relationship with the west. After the last two go rounds an abiding distrust of letting europe creep close to what it thinks is her natural borders. Ukraine was interested in Nato but europe sensibly put them off. Between Napoleon, germany funding Lenin's spree and Adolph I would suggest that they have a reasonable cause to keep the front door as far away from moscow as possible. That has nothing to do with democracy but realpolitik. Just because we pretend to have a democracy here in america, doesnt mean the rest of the world doesn't see thru the oligarch's that control the american dream.
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 58 years. meep
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Post #387,750
3/20/14 12:41:37 AM
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Jeez, Box!
..Wish you'd stay in this mode a %greater-than
..that Other-mode, oft associated with creatures who hide under t(r)oll-bridges.
Eh?
;^>
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Post #387,760
3/20/14 11:45:55 AM
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I keep telling y'all...
He can be this way. I know you see it... but nobody holds his feet to the fire... and in fact well... encourages the other mode.
--
greg@gregfolkert.net
"No snowflake in an avalanche ever feels responsible." --Stanislaw Jerzy Lec
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Post #387,749
3/20/14 12:26:16 AM
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Interesting times..
Apparently none of these (legitimate and not-so-much) concerns have--in fact--been hashed-out via any one-to-one, private exchanges.
Clearly such face-time Cannot be rebroadcast to anyone (in either camp.) It is the nature of diplomacy that it doesn't work when everyone gets a script.
Thanks for a cohesive presentation of a few other aspects--to issues which we may Not/probably cannot resolve via any 'reasonable' public disclosures.
(Except at IWE, of course.) ;^>
For my own part, I hope that Putin--against his Public-macho displays of aggrieved 2nd-Class status bereavement
--is possessed-of a built-in sanity-Editor, one capable of Patience (that is.)
Should he go 100% with Ivan (the Terrible one), and with all those enhanced-nukes: global-warming could be enhanced a few thousand mega-tonnes thermal equivalents. :-/
May (also) BHO refrain from any Ultimata; it's the anti-gemütlichkeit path to Perdition City.
{{sigh}} Why fight over Real Estate? when the planetary-bearer of those squiggles on a chart shall trump as surely as ... the deck-chair rearrangement on that large ship
didn't.
Scale!! without relativity? is meaningless.
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Post #387,752
3/20/14 1:36:49 AM
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Imagine Canada
...withdrawing from NATO, recalling its ambassador from Washington, inviting the Russians to establish air and naval presences in their provinces. We'd arrange for the overthrow its government, with a new US-installed regime rescinding these arrangements, in a New York minute. In a world governed by the Lollipop Guild, these trespasses against the sovereignty of a weaker neighbor by a stronger would not occur, but...get real.
cordially,
(recall that in the aftermath of 09/11/01 there was talk in the Cheney Shogunate of pulling Canada "inside our security perimeter," with some of our gauleiters speaking quite openly about the necessity of our northern neighbor yielding a measure of its police powers to US oversight)
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Post #387,754
3/20/14 7:23:21 AM
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One could imagine that.
There has been talk of the eastern Canadian provinces joining the US if Quebec ever votes to become independent. I don't know how serious the talk is, but it wouldn't involve a US invasion.
The UK air force was effectively under SAC military control in the 1950s before they had their own nuclear forces - http://en.wikipedia...._Operational_Plan (some scary stuff is in there!). Lots of weird war planning went on, showing the US feeling and acting like BMOC.
We all know that Cheney was (or was reported to be) a war monger. Lots of people apparently went insane after 9/11. Recall the mumblings about putting off the 2004 presidential election "in case" there was a terrorist attack - http://www.nytimes.c...f-vote-delay.html
Yes, if there was a sudden change in Canada's leadership that caused it to change alliances, etc., then there would be consternation in DC. Maybe even some plans involving military actions would be drawn up in response. But remember that France left NATO - http://en.wikipedia....French_withdrawal (but, yes, it did not join the Warsaw Pack) without too much consternation from neighbors or the US. But even if that did happen to Canada, I can't see us deciding that we needed to take Windsor, ON, or something. Slicing off parts of a country without going through a slow, well-defined, and reasonably democratic process raises lots of red flags.
My $0.02.
Cheers,
Scott.
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Post #387,756
3/20/14 10:00:48 AM
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my scenario was deliberately lurid
and obviously implausible, but the intent was to provide a sense of the Russian mindset (into which I do not claim any special insight) as it plausibly appears to me. As to the independent Quebec scenario, I suppose some Anglophones there might stream south as cultural refugees, but the other provinces? How deluded would these commonwealths have to be to bind their fates more closely to that of this savage, predatory, authoritarian oligarchy, this doomed experiment?
(The late Robertson Davies had some amusing things to say about Canada, the USA and Mother England. I'll see if I can find them today.)
cordially,
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Post #387,757
3/20/14 10:37:38 AM
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On Canada...
IIRC, one of the arguments was that by being physically separated from the rest of Canada, they would have "no choice" but join the US.
A contemporary article (from 1990) - http://articles.chic...meech-lake-quebec
Newfoundland joined Canada in 1949 - http://www.ucs.mun.c...ederation1949.htm
Yeah, governments have had wild swings in the last 100 years or so, but many in Canada probably wouldn't look too askance at leaving Harper's clutches these days... :-/
Cheers,
Scott.
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Post #387,783
3/21/14 5:38:41 AM
3/21/14 5:54:18 AM
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If we suppose that Putin's take on our corrupt authoritarian
oligarchy is similar to yours (and mine), then probably he has little interest in the diplomacy dance, at all.
Haven't much idea how many Canadians have pierced the bespattered-veil/shroud? of our self-congratulatory Exceptionalism--do Canadians watch as much crap-TV as Muricans?
Next moves?
Can.. our plutocrats, via their slogans and $Ts overcome Putin's disdain to sign our dance-card? via similar financial machinations (as created and maintain our 0.001% Overlords,)
Disingenuous jingoism -vs- real politik 2014. May the dis-USA Military 2015 be comprised of 90% scions of the Ruling Class: What a Glorious New War! eh?
It would be nice to find someone to root-for, trapped as I am, within the belly of one of the beastliest-ever, (scanning all previous dysfunctional empires--just to check.)
Guatemala, perhaps? Their Prez appears to be a mensch; lives at home, even. Maybe doesn't possess the requisite two swords to rattle.
(Probably with feet-of-clay too; it's all the rage now.)
Russkies and their cohorts in the diaspora Will march in solidarity.. Muricans? Hah! what's to fight/die-for Here, which engenders allegiance, such as we have Become.
Resignedly... but Cheerfully.
Ed: punct.
Edited by Ashton
March 21, 2014, 05:54:18 AM EDT
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Post #387,806
3/22/14 9:29:46 AM
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The likelihood of the Maritimes joining the US in the event
of Qc separation is very low. For one thing, there's no guarantee that Quebec would be able to hold on to its Grand Nord; the vast majority of the people that live there are Cree, and they've already stated they would not be interested in remaining within an independent Quebec, many times over many years.
As for the Maritime provinces... I think it's highly unlikely that they'd be willing to consider joining the US. For one thing, periphery states don't do so well in the US federation. I could see them deciding to go on alone, but join the US? Not very likely. The likeliest outcome would be continuing to send MPs to the House, with the Grand Nord and Labrador forming the physical connection. If the Quebecois didn't like it, well, it wouldn't be difficult for the Cree to turn off their electricity. It wouldn't take long after that.
Mind you, my take is that the likelihood of any of that coming to pass is slim at best. Marois is spinning cotton candy dreams and I'm pretty sure most of the people there know that. What she's really doing is trying the Republican approach of finding an issue to drive a particular segment of the citizenry to the polls, in the hopes of (in this case) picking up some rural ridings so she can get her majority. My feeling is that she's doing a great job of destroying the separatist movement by splitting them down the fault line of the hard nationalists and the folks that actually care about civil liberties.
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Post #387,815
3/22/14 12:40:21 PM
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Maritimes? not likely. I could see Alberta maybe
the maritimes would more likely want to be commonwealth and return to the crown if it would have them
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 58 years. meep
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Post #387,816
3/22/14 12:45:55 PM
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Right now Alberta is in a class of its own`
I have family out there. They're quite frankly pissed at how things are going. It's not anyone's fault other than their province's, though; the person mostly responsible is an Albertan... and relevantly similarly to how W was a Texan.
First as tragedy, second as farce.
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Post #387,823
3/22/14 1:24:00 PM
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Very interesting. Thanks.
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Post #387,817
3/22/14 12:50:40 PM
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Robertson Davies on Canada
The late, great Canadian magical realist had this to say about his country just about thirty-seven years ago: Perhaps we have been a little late in coming to self-recognition. Sometimes when I think of the great world family of English-speaking peoples, I think of Canada as the Daughter Who Stayed at Home. I mean that in 1776 Columbia, a self-willed girl with a strong sense of her own independence, left her motherÂs house, after some high-pitched family rows, and set up a household of her own. At that time Canada elected to stay with Mother. It was not a simple decision, for Columbia offered us all the inducements that naughty girls have at their command; we have not forgotten the bags of gold (we suspect they were of French origin) with which some of your very persuasive citizens—including that extremely persuasive, somewhat ambiguous character Benjamin Franklin—visited us, hoping that we might be bought. But, to continue this simplified version of history, we said: ÂNo, Mother needs us, and we shall always be true to Mother; so long as she needs a faithful daughter, we shall never desert her. So what happened? Just what everybody with a knowledge of family behaviour might expect to happen: Columbia, the naughty daughter, prospered mightily and Mother (who always had a sharp eye for success) became very fond of her. And the Good Daughter Who Stayed at Home became, in the course of time, rather a bore. Many years have passed since that decision and that outcome: Mother has been having a rough time, and has taken up with all sorts of rowdy Continental companions. And the Good Daughter has begun, somewhat belatedly, to have some very serious thoughts about her future. Where does it lie? cordially,
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Post #387,822
3/22/14 1:23:40 PM
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Excellent. Thanks.
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Post #387,831
3/22/14 6:09:03 PM
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{{Chortle, long guffaw..}}
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