Post #387,650
3/17/14 2:09:24 PM
3/17/14 2:23:31 PM
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It wasn't.
Immediately. But who knows? Osama Bin Laden and Saddam Hussein were once our allies. We armed, trained and funded them. Looks like we're headed down the very same path in the Ukraine. I'm not saying the majority of the folks in Kiev were scary - far from it. But there was and is a non-trivial number of folks we really don't want to be backing there, imo. The West is (for their own political reasons) downplaying the ultra-Rightists in this situation. The Russians are exaggerating (for their own political reasons) the ultra-Rightists in this situation. It's just that we've got a terrible history of backing people "who hate the Soviets/Russians" while turning a blind eye to the danger of such support and I trust the Russians with their fleet more than I do a bunch of newly empowered ultra-nationalist neo-nazis. I think "jumping immediately to the side that hates Putin" was not a well-reasoned approach. All I'm saying is that the fact our new friends can't get a hold of the Black Sea fleet is not such a bad thing.
Edit: Here's the sort of people I'm talking about.
February 24, 2014 |
As the Euromaidan protests in the Ukrainian capitol of Kiev culminated this week, displays of open fascism and neo-Nazi extremism became too glaring to ignore. Since demonstrators filled the downtown square to battle Ukrainian riot police and demand the ouster of the corruption-stained, pro-Russian President Viktor Yanukovich, it has been filled with far-right streetfighting men pledging to defend their countryÂs ethnic purity.
White supremacist banners and Confederate flags were draped inside KievÂs occupied City Hall, and demonstrators have hoisted Nazi SS and white power symbols over a toppled memorial to V.I. Lenin. After Yanukovich fled his palatial estate by helicopter, EuroMaidan protesters destroyed a memorial to Ukrainians who died battling German occupation during World War II. Sieg heil salutes and the Nazi Wolfsangel symbol have become an increasingly common site in Maidan Square, and neo-Nazi forces have established Âautonomous zones in and around Kiev.
An Anarchist group called AntiFascist Union Ukraine attempted to join the Euromaidan demonstrations but found it difficult to avoid threats of violence and imprecations from the gangs of neo-Nazis roving the square. ÂThey called the Anarchists things like Jews, blacks, Communists, one of its members said. ÂThere werenÂt even any Communists, that was just an insult.Â
ÂThere are lots of Nationalists here, including Nazis, the anti-fascist continued. ÂThey came from all over Ukraine, and they make up about 30% of protesters.Â
http://www.alternet....neo-nazis-ukraine
Edited by mmoffitt
March 17, 2014, 02:23:31 PM EDT
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Post #387,653
3/17/14 2:52:33 PM
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<sigh>
We didn't ally, fund, or train bin Laden. http://en.wikipedia....n_Cyclone#Funding
Saddam wasn't an ally. http://en.wikipedia....n_to_the_conflict (Offering support to Iraq so that Iran didn't win, or as leverage for the Hostages, didn't make Saddam an ally.)
The UK had Hong Kong for nearly 100 years. The US has had Guantanamo for over 100 years. There is nothing in what happened in Kyiv that indicated that Sevastapol was in danger and every reasonable expectation that the lease with the Russians would continue to be honored through 2042 as the agreement states.
Putin (and Max Blumenthal) taking a handful of neo-Nazi kooks and puffing it up as being a threat to Russian residents or the Black Sea fleet sounds eerily reminiscent of the statements about the threat from the Polish cavalry in 1939...
Sure, be skeptical. But don't be ridiculous. You think Angela Merkel supports neo-Nazis?
Cheers,
Scott.
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Post #387,655
3/17/14 4:00:49 PM
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You mean she isn't one?
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Post #387,687
3/18/14 12:21:25 PM
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Back at you.
Saddam worked for the CIA ferchrissakes. He was on their payroll!
Then there's this:
http://media.photobu...videos&sort=1&o=5
A good synopsis on Saddam here: http://www.thirdworl...dden_History.html
Didn't help arm the Mujahadeen? You've got to be joking. Here's a visual for you: https://inquirer.wor...-qaedamujahideen/
Oh, let me guess. None of the arms-for-hostages supplies and none of the dual use technology ever made it to Osama, right?
Exactly how deep are those rose colored glasses you wear?
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Post #387,689
3/18/14 12:31:59 PM
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Read my post, and the linkies, again please. :-)
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Post #387,691
3/18/14 12:33:55 PM
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Wikipedia? That's your sole source? </me falls over>
I give you photographs and you give me wikipedia?
End.Of.Discussion.
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Post #387,695
3/18/14 2:02:52 PM
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Wikipedia has cites. HTH.
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Post #387,656
3/17/14 4:10:10 PM
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Counterpoint.
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Post #387,670
3/17/14 11:18:37 PM
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You're buying into Yanukovych spin.
Take a look at this posting of a Jewish protestor:
http://www.ukieland....idans-protestors/
However, I present myself solely as a Jew, and a religious one at that. I have tens of resistance guards  Georgians, Azerbaijani, Armenians, and Russians who do not even attempt to speak Ukrainian  we have never been intolerant to each other.
You think he might be a Nazi?
Note that SS stands for ÂSpilna Sprava or "Common Cause" in English. Alex
ÂThere is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.Â
-- Isaac Asimov
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Post #387,686
3/18/14 11:53:46 AM
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One thing I do know.
The first casualty of conflict is truth. Anecdotal evidence is not compelling. I really feel for the Ukrainians. Recall I went to the 4th grade in Kiev. I know that was 40+ years ago but my memories of that time are the fondest of my youth. I wish I had remained in contact with my schoolmates there. In my office right now I have a photo of myself, my little brother and Hubert Humphrey at the opening of the exhibit my dad worked on in Leningrad. Maybe there is still quite a bit of Soviet/Russian apologist in me that I inculcated at ages 9 and 10. That's a fair criticism and one I take under serious advisement.
I've never been a fan of violence anywhere. Well, okay, maybe on Wall Street, but that's a different matter entirely and completely understandable (fascist bastards). I'm just not sure things are as black-and-white as they are painted by the West. I'm equally dubious things are as bleak as the Russians are claiming. Throwing billions of dollars at one side or the other, or worse, offering military support immediately seems dicey to me. To whom is the money going? For what purpose? Unbiased reporting suggests that there is some radical Right involvement (which is to be expected in a power vacuum). I just want us to be careful that we are helping the right folks. We don't have the greatest track record of doing that.
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