Survey says:

Post #232,292 by admin 11/3/05 12:19:51 PM Reply	Survey says: As some of you know via other means, I've been fighting a very odd sort of ill health the past month or two (and actually going on 6 years now). Tremors, paraesthesia, migraines, fatigue, stabbing pains, sweats, heart palpitations, metallic tastes, cramps, numb lips, trouble speaking, trouble swallowing, lightheadedness, concentration problems... all kinds of things. So I've had many, many blood tests (and the bruised elbows to prove it), two MRIs, a CT scan, multiple neurological work-ups, EKGs, etc. I don't have: MS, a tumor, cancer, lupus, B12 deficiency, heart problems, blood problems, kidney problems, liver problems, or thalamus problems. Or a number of other things either. So what I've been given is a clinical diagnosis: fibromyalgia, which can only be diagnosed after a bunch of other things (as above) have been eliminated. The good news: while it's an autoimmune disorder, it's not degenerative, nor fatal, nor any of a number of other nasty things I've been imagining throughout the testing for the past few months. The bad news: they don't know what causes it, nor do they have a treatment for anything other than symptoms. The other good news: most of the symptoms can be treated by lifestyle changes: exercise, better sleep (sleep is ultra-important), no caffeine, eat on a schedule, lessen stress and anxiety. The fatigue and pain can be treated with a drug (Effector), which can work at very low doses -- it does stuff with serotonin and the like, all of which I will be investigating heavily. The really good news: I can stop worrying about what it might be, and get on with living my life. I also konw that, apart from this weird disorder, I'm very healthy. :-P Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #232,293 by ben_tilly 11/3/05 12:22:32 PM Reply	Now wait for the other shoe to drop They say that bad things tend to come in threes. Let's see. Your eye problems. Your autoimmune disorder. ??? :-P Cheers, Ben I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
Post #232,303 by drewk 11/3/05 12:57:57 PM Reply	His personality === Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link\|http://DocHope.com\|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats]. [link\|http://DocHope.com\|http://DocHope.com]
Post #232,305 by admin 11/3/05 1:03:56 PM Reply	Or my "friends"... Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #232,295 by tuberculosis 11/3/05 12:23:40 PM Reply	Knew someone with that Found daily yoga practice helpful for controlling pain/improving muscle steadiness. Glad you're not dying any faster than the rest of us. Sorry to hear of the discomfort. Ill health sucks. "Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" --Mark Twain "The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." --Albert Einstein "This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses." --George W. Bush
Post #232,306 by admin 11/3/05 1:04:27 PM Reply	Yep, that's one thing I'll be investigating. Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #232,297 by Silverlock 11/3/05 12:34:52 PM Reply	Take care of yourself I don't want to have to be missing you. ----------------------------------------- George W. Bush and his PNAC handlers sent the US into Iraq with lies. I find myself rethinking my opposition to the death penalty. --Donald Dean Richards Jr.
Post #232,307 by admin 11/3/05 1:06:16 PM Reply	Thanks. This is the main reason I've been scarce around here/the chat room lately. Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #232,298 by boxley 11/3/05 12:36:50 PM Reply	saw a workup on that, hard to diagnose but some think it is an overload of uric acid and or phosphate here is a treatise, as usual if its on the internet its crap but may help. [link\|http://web.mit.edu/london/www/guai.html\|http://web.mit.edu/london/www/guai.html] not fun, good luck, thanx, bill "the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #232,299 by boxley 11/3/05 12:45:57 PM Reply	ask your doc if an 1/8 teaspoon of magnesium oxide would hurt, It comes in a powder for about $13USD for 6 ounces. It does help aches, pains etc. I take it daily when I remember. thanx, bill "the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #232,308 by admin 11/3/05 1:07:31 PM Reply	It's actually a spectrum of disorders. It's closely related to Chronic Fatigue Syndrome too. Basically it's part of that whole catch-all "shit we don't understand, but all looks mostly the same" class of neurological disorders. Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #232,300 by Another Scott 11/3/05 12:47:56 PM 11/6/05 4:56:37 PM Reply	Bummer. :-( Speaking of autoimmune disorders: [link\|http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=9256593&dopt=Abstract\|Study indicates anorexia may be an autoimmune disorder]. [edit:] And [link\|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=232619\|this] story from The Economist.[/edit] It would be nice if our bodies weren't so complicated and we were able to say that X is caused by Y and can be fixed by Z. We have a need to find solutions like that (that's one reason why quackery is so popular). I assume you've investigated things like food alergies too? Maybe you need to go on an all baby seal diet or something... ;-) I'm only half kidding. Diet can have a pretty big impact on the way our bodies work (e.g. [link\|http://www.epilepsy.org.uk/info/ketogenic.html\|high fat diets] are claimed to help some types of epilepsy). Hang in there. Medical science marches on pretty quickly these days. With luck they'll find something that helps soon. Cheers, Scott. Edited by Another Scott Nov. 6, 2005, 04:56:37 PM EST Expand All History
Post #232,309 by admin 11/3/05 1:08:36 PM Reply	Going on an elimination diet soon. One trigger can be wheat, apparently. Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #232,304 by bionerd 11/3/05 1:02:14 PM Reply	The drug you referenced is Effexor- commonly used as an antidepressant. Recent findings suggest serotonin and norepinephrine are associated with regulating and reducing feelings of pain that come from the body. An imbalance of these chemicals is also known to cause depression. There is a strong link between pain and depression, and specifically between fibromyalgia and depression. As you do your research you will see this come up over and over again. I'm not not suggesting you're depressed, and even if you do have a depressive symptoms they are likely a symptom of the fibromyalgia- not a depressive disorder. Anxiety, depression, insomnia, cognitive problems, all traditionally thought of as "mind" problems, are often the result of physical illness and disease. You cant overlook the mind/body connection. I hope you have a physician who is sensitive to this and will treat you as a whole person rather than just the symptoms of a disease. I'm glad you can pin a name on your symptoms now. That must be a relief for you. Good luck on feeling better. Follow your MOUSE
Post #232,310 by Yendor 11/3/05 1:12:04 PM Reply	As opposed to half a person? ;-) -YendorMike "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin, 1759 Historical Review of Pennsylvania
Post #232,313 by admin 11/3/05 1:13:37 PM Reply	Thanks for that info. One of the problems with FM, apparently, is that it can be brought on by anxiety. And then all of the weird symptoms increase that anxiety, which makes things worse, and so it goes. And yes, I've got some of all of that: anxiety, low-grade depression (more just not feeling like doing anything), insomnia, and cognitive problems. The neurologist seems to be hip to all of that. She was glad to see that 1) I have a good attitude about it and 2) I'm willing to make a number of lifestyle changes, all of which should help with the symptoms. The Effexor is more to get me out of the current slump so the problem stops feeding itself. She also gave me a sleep inducer, but was very supportive of my attempts to make other changes first to get my sleep back. She just made it plain that I shouldn't be afraid to take it if I really need it; just don't depend on it. It's hard to find a doctor to even say the word "fibromyalgia", although that situation is getting better. She had even mentioned the possibility after my first appointment, so I take that as a promising sign. Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #232,343 by ChrisR 11/3/05 8:15:27 PM Reply	You need some Peril Sensitive Glasses to keep you calm (ala Zaphod). Closest approximation I can come up with - [link\|http://www.engadget.com/entry/1234000467045106/\|Media Sensitive Glasses] - no more fretting over the flame forum. :-)
Post #232,314 by Yendor 11/3/05 1:15:05 PM Reply	Man, that sucks. No caffeine -- been there, done that. It's fine, once you get over the headaches caused by withdrawal. Then, if you were previously a caffeine junkie, you're constantly reminded of all the crap you can no longer have. More sleep is a good thing. Exercise is good, too. But it's not like you have a burning need to lose weight or anything like that. Lessen stress. As a programmer. That'll be interesting. At least you know what it is. That's the start of a workable plan. Very good news there. :) -YendorMike "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin, 1759 Historical Review of Pennsylvania
Post #232,316 by admin 11/3/05 1:21:20 PM Reply	Not really... Caffeine is nasty stuff. It makes some disruptive changes to your brain while you're on it. I periodically give up caffeine anyways, and I don't drink pop, so it's not really an issue. On losing weight: I'm up to 172 pounds, which is a good 30 more than I weighed in high school. I could stand to convert that to muscle mass. Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #232,319 by jake123 11/3/05 1:39:50 PM Reply	Yeah, besides, it's a LOT better than some of the alternatives you mentioned. "Always look on the bright side of life" doot de doo, doot de doo. Take care of yourself Scott. --\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca \n [link\|http://consultron.ca\|http://consultron.ca] [link\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] \n Kingston Ontario Canada [link\|news://news.consultron.ca\|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
Post #232,333 by a6l6e6x 11/3/05 4:46:41 PM Reply	Now fhat you know the problem, here's hoping you can... deal with it successfully. Alex The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. -- Bertrand Russell
Post #232,340 by broomberg 11/3/05 6:58:37 PM Reply	I always thought that was the catchall for shit hurts that we can't figure out. Good luck and keep us informed.
Post #232,342 by admin 11/3/05 7:24:49 PM Reply	Pretty much. But there's more to it than "shit hurts". :-P Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #232,382 by cforde 11/4/05 12:56:42 AM Reply	with an attitude like that... you'll be fine. You're healthy except when you do things that make you ill. Hmmm, there's an insightful diagnosis. Doctor it hurts when I do this. Then don't do that... :-) Have fun, Carl Forde
Post #232,390 by pwhysall 11/4/05 3:04:51 AM Reply	If you were a horse, etc. Peter [link\|http://www.no2id.net/\|Don't Let The Terrorists Win] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Post #232,399 by CRConrad 11/4/05 6:37:06 AM Reply	Good news is, one can live with that for a long time. Bad... ...news is, I have a request. :-) Proof of the first point is, my Mom's been suffering from that for X years; over a decade, at least. (Probably nearer two, counting the time it took them to conclude that that was what it was.) The reason for the second is, my Mom's Google-fu is a lot lower than yours (no wonder; I'd guess it's nil... Or possibly negative). So let us know what you find out, eh? So I can pass it on to Mom! :-) (Come to think of it, I guess the bad news really is, one can live with that for a long time... :-/ ) [link\|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode\|Christian R. Conrad] (I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.) Yes Mr. Garrison, genetic engineering lets us correct God's horrible, horrible mistakes, like German people. - [link\|http://maxpages.com/southpark2k/Episode_105\|Mr. Hat]
Post #232,408 by admin 11/4/05 8:18:05 AM Reply	Will do. Preliminarily, sleep seems to be a big factor. And when you get bad sleep, the symptoms get worse, which makes you sleep worse, which makes the symptoms get worse, which... Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #232,417 by imqwerky 11/4/05 9:25:03 AM Reply	Roger on the Sleep. Critter is going in tomorrow for his sleep study. 45 years of poor quality sleep have hit critical mass. He will be wired for heart rate, breathing, brainwaves, eye movement and leg movement (that's all I can think of at the moment.) He will also be recorded and video-taped. I can't wait to find out how to remedy his sleeping deficiencies. He will be like a new man! I suggest anyone who has problems sleeping to hie thee to a sleep study clinic. Whether you have insurance or not, it is worth the price to find out the answers. I have snarkily said before (but not here, back when I was a new mom,) that sleep deprivation is a form of torture. Our culture is so screwed up when it comes to sleep. I wish I could find a joke I heard a few years ago about an American and a Mexican. Had to do with how hard one worked all day and how the other would take a siesta. Was funny but made you think. Anyhoo, wishing the best for you, Scott. I hope more research continues on this illness and you will find comfort from your symtoms. Peace, Amy "It's never too late to be what you might have been." ~ George Eliot
Post #232,419 by CRConrad 11/4/05 10:09:27 AM Reply	Info-flow can go the other way too:I'll let you know what... ...she has to tell; with that many years of experience of it, there's gotta be something. [link\|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode\|Christian R. Conrad] (I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.) Yes Mr. Garrison, genetic engineering lets us correct God's horrible, horrible mistakes, like German people. - [link\|http://maxpages.com/southpark2k/Episode_105\|Mr. Hat]
Post #232,443 by boxley 11/4/05 1:12:25 PM Reply	she has probably seen this one [link\|http://web.mit.edu/london/www/guai.html\|http://web.mit.edu/london/www/guai.html] YMMV "the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #232,622 by CRConrad 11/6/05 4:46:19 PM Reply	Nope, she hasn't. Thanks (again), and sorry... ...I forgot to mention that I'd already printed that one out for her from your previous link; just haven't mailed the print-out to her yet. Yeah, dead trees and snailmail and so on; my Mom isn't into computers and Internets and all this modern shizzit. (Heck, why did you think her Google-fu is so bad? :-) [link\|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode\|Christian R. Conrad] (I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.) Yes Mr. Garrison, genetic engineering lets us correct God's horrible, horrible mistakes, like German people. - [link\|http://maxpages.com/southpark2k/Episode_105\|Mr. Hat]
Post #232,636 by broomberg 11/6/05 5:46:01 PM Reply	Interesting I always was under the impression that guaifenesin was almost a placebo. Expectorant? Who the hell wants that that? I'm expectorating enough when I have a cold. And now I find it's a very powerful muscle relaxer and decent pain killer! You got any other finds for me?
Post #232,639 by imqwerky 11/6/05 5:54:08 PM Reply	Expectorants are useful They make your coughs more productive, thereby less frequent. Instead of a non-productive, dry, hacking cough (which is a waste of energy), you hock some good loogies and get the job done. Medically speaking, you are moving phlegm from the respiratory tract to the digestive tract (if swallowed) or out of the system ( if hocked or blown into a tissue.) Just call me Dr. Mom. Peace, Amy "It's never too late to be what you might have been." ~ George Eliot
Post #232,646 by jake123 11/6/05 6:05:51 PM Reply	Who knew loogies was a medical term? --\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca \n [link\|http://consultron.ca\|http://consultron.ca] [link\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] \n Kingston Ontario Canada [link\|news://news.consultron.ca\|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
Post #232,640 by boxley 11/6/05 5:56:02 PM Reply	found it when searching for why my dam bones ache so bad "the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #232,652 by broomberg 11/6/05 6:10:00 PM Reply	Holy Fing St The fact that guaifenesin has a history of treating various ailments, supports the theory that it has a more general analgesic effect, rather than a specific effect that only treats fibromyalgia. So it's no wonder that people such as Gregory Penniston, a chiropractor who designed the GuaiLife form of guaifenesin, markets it for a very wide range of pain conditions, such as pelvic pain, Ehlers-Danlos Syndrome and restless leg syndrome, among others. Ehlers-Danlos Syndrome** I've been diagnosed for years, seen multiple Drs, live on a huge amount of expensive painkillers, and no one has ever mentioned this. ARRGG!!!!
Post #232,656 by broomberg 11/6/05 6:26:46 PM Reply	Another Holy Fing S**t And it's because of magnesium's ability to regulate nerve functions that other fibromyalgia symptoms occur. Migraine headaches, mitral valve prolapse, and Raynaud's phenomenon, all problems commonly found in people with fibromyalgia, are also problems that have been associated with a magnesium deficiency. Without enough magnesium, nerves fire too easily from even minor stimuli. Noises will sound excessively loud, lights will seem too bright, emotional reactions will be exaggerated, and the brain will be too stimulated to sleep, all symptoms commonly found in fibromyalgia. And if the oversensitivity to light and noise reminds you of someone suffering from a hangover, they are one and the same problem, as alcohol is known for decreasing magnesium levels, and magnesium supplementation has been found to relieve hangover symptoms. As some of you may recall, these symptoms pretty much describe me. As I sit in a dark room, being annoyed from noises that I hear from upstairs. As I recall that I've blocked the light from the VCR clock in my bedroom becuase the dots between the hours and the seconds blink and keep me awake. As most people tell me I'm way too amped up and excitable. I'm starting magnesium supplements tomorrow.
Post #232,659 by admin 11/6/05 6:30:51 PM Reply	Magnesium is hard to get... Supplements don't absorb very well. If you get loose stools (not the kind you get from a missing screw...) then you aren't absorbing it properly. Pumpking seeds have a lot of magnesium in them, though. I'm going to start trying them as a daily snack. Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #232,660 by broomberg 11/6/05 6:56:49 PM Reply	I've got to come up with something else [link\|http://www.holistic-online.com/Herbal-Med/_Herbs/h_pumpkin_seed.htm\|http://www.holistic-..._pumpkin_seed.htm] 50% carbs. I've got another 20 pounds to go before I'm willing to start eating that much carbs. Anything else I should be looking at?
Post #232,665 by Andrew Grygus 11/6/05 7:11:36 PM Reply	Well, you could start eating Apple iBook G4s . . . [link\|http://www.aaxnet.com\|AAx]
Post #232,666 by Another Scott 11/6/05 7:26:00 PM Reply	My Thinkpad T41 has a Mg cover too. Please note that there are many claims about supplements that haven't been verified in medical tests. My FIL was enthralled by [link\|http://www.drweil.com/u/Home/index.html\|Dr. Weil] for a while. I'd hate to think of how many hundreds of dollars he spent on boxes of pills from that quack. :-( Barry, if you're concerned about magnesium deficiency, make sure you look over things like [link\|http://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/magnesium.asp\|this] page at the NIH. Please remember if things were as black and white as advocates like [link\|http://www.mgwater.com\|Mgwater] said, then there would be little controversy about their claims. FWIW. Hang in there. Cheers, Scott.
Post #232,672 by Andrew Grygus 11/6/05 7:47:47 PM Reply	Well, he's afraid of carbs, so . . . . . that halibut looks like a good deal. [link\|http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=foodspice&dbid=16\|Swiss chard] is real heavy on magnesium and better than spinach for most dishes. Grilled halibut (and I bet other fish) served over swiss chard with a lemon/(butter or olive oil)/pepper sauce with some white wine is going to be great stuff and packed with magnesium. Fish and swiss chard also make a great fish soup. Cooking Swiss Chard: cut or tear the green parts from the stems (white, red or yellow - I ususally use white). Roll up the leafy parts and cut them into strips. Cut the stems into narrow sticks or diagonals about 1/2 wide. Steam or sauté (in olive oil) the stem pieces half done before mixing in the leaves. Don't overcook. [link\|http://www.aaxnet.com\|AAx]
Post #232,677 by broomberg 11/6/05 8:22:20 PM Reply	Great recommendation Interesting quote on the page. Bone Up on Swiss Chard Magnesium, yet another nutrient on Swiss chard's "Excellent Source" list, helps regulate nerve and muscle tone by balancing the action of calcium. In many nerve cells, magnesium serves as Nature's own calcium channel blocker, preventing calcium from rushing into the nerve cell and activating the nerve. By blocking calcium's entry, magnesium keeps our nerves (and the blood vessels and muscles they ennervate) relaxed. If our diet provides us with too little magnesium, however, calcium can gain free entry, and the nerve cell can become overactivated, sending too many messages and causing excessive contraction. Insufficient magnesium can thus contribute to high blood pressure, muscle spasms (including spasms of the heart muscle or the spasms of the airways symptomatic of asthma), and migraine headaches, as well as muscle cramps, tension, soreness and fatigue. *Insufficient magnesium can thus contribute to high blood pressure,* Another HFS. The most recent diagnosis is 190/100.
Post #232,678 by admin 11/6/05 8:23:49 PM Reply	One reason I'm not likely Mg deficient. Mine is something like 118/70 IIRC. Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #232,705 by pwhysall 11/7/05 1:07:00 AM Reply	Last time I was measured, it was 100/70. However, I have no idea what those numbers mean. Peter [link\|http://www.no2id.net/\|Don't Let The Terrorists Win] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Post #232,727 by admin 11/7/05 8:12:35 AM Reply	Re: Last time I was measured, it was 100/70. # Pre-high blood pressure: systolic pressure consistently 120 to 139, or diastolic 80 to 89 # Stage 1 high blood pressure: systolic pressure consistently 140 to 159, or diastolic 90 to 99 # Stage 2 high blood pressure: systolic pressure consistently 160 or over, or diastolic 100 or over # Hypotension (blood pressure below normal): may be indicated by a systolic pressure lower than 90, or a pressure 25 mmHg lower than usual Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #232,683 by broomberg 11/6/05 8:55:44 PM Reply	Chard may be good - but broccoli is much better! [link\|http://www.marinurology.com/articles/calculi/foods/magnesium.htm\|http://www.marinurol...ods/magnesium.htm] And when I'm off Atkins, checkout the peanuts!
Post #232,685 by Andrew Grygus 11/6/05 9:08:29 PM Reply	Yeabut - 2 large stalks is waaaay over 1/2 cup . . . . . so you're not talking equal portions. [link\|http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=foodspice&dbid=9#summary\|Broccoli] is actually much lower (presuming American broccoli). I'm using a fair amount of Chinese broccoli (which is like Italian broccoli (rapini) but even more leafy) these days, and it's probably a lot higher in magnesium, but my recipes call for rice or rice noodles which are carbs. [link\|http://www.aaxnet.com\|AAx]
Post #232,690 by broomberg 11/6/05 9:24:00 PM Reply	Ah - good point Silly me, I thought they were doing equal portion comparisons. OK, I'll look for the Swiss chard, and if I can't find it, do the brocoli. Note: They say cooked broccoli. Is cooking a requirement? I like it raw.
Post #232,694 by Andrew Grygus 11/6/05 9:46:41 PM Reply	Cooking shouldn't be a requirement . . . . . provided you chew it up well. Light cooking does make a lot of plant material more digestible but overcooking destroys vitamins and other nutrients. Light cooking also makes broccoli blend better with other ingredients in recipes. Swiss chard I use a fair amount of and it's easily available at farmer's markets and ethnic groceries in Southern California at about $1.00 for a 1 pound bunch (bought a bunch this morning). The supermarkets also all have it but I don't pay supermarket prices for this sort of stuff. Red, white and yellow stemmed versions are available in that order of availability. A (low carb) breakfast or side dish I've often used. Slice up a pound of polish sausage or similar. Put it in a wide sauté pan with 1/8" of water. Bring up over high heat uncovered and let all the water evaporate until the sausage slices start to fry, then stir them until lightly fried. Enough oil should have been rendered by the boiling but if your sausage is too lean use a little olive oil, if too fat pour some off. Cut the chard stems as desired (a 1 pound bunch), and shread the leaves course. Toss the stems into the sauté pan with 1/3 cup water, cover and simmer until half done. Stir the leaves in well and cover. Simmer until tender (check water, it shouldn't get dry) but not overdone. The sausage should provide enough salt so don't add any. Serve. This also works very well with other greens, such as leafy broccoli (rapini or Chinese) or amaranth and particularly mustard greens, but collards don't work because they have to be cooked way too long. [link\|http://www.aaxnet.com\|AAx]
Post #232,937 by broomberg 11/7/05 9:55:19 PM Reply	Dinner tonight A big bowl of raw swiss chard, a bit of nova lox, and Newman's Garlic / Parmesan Italian dressing. MmmmmMmmm.
Post #232,946 by Andrew Grygus 11/7/05 11:21:48 PM Reply	Raw Swiss Chard? Well, I've munched a few leaves that way, but I wouldn't make a meal of it. I'd steam the bastards. You can use them in recipes that call for spinach (a lot less mushy and a lot less sour, but compatible). [link\|http://www.aaxnet.com\|AAx]
Post #232,955 by broomberg 11/8/05 6:32:59 AM Reply	Because it's bad for you or because you don't like it? I asked above since I was a bit worried that I would not get the same magnesium level unless I cooked it. I prefer my veggies raw. I'm eating a bowl of it for breakfast right now. Also, I think it's really pretty. Perfectly formed large leaves on a colorful red stalk.
Post #232,661 by broomberg 11/6/05 7:03:29 PM Reply	You got the "lumps"? One of the main diagnostic tools which Dr. St. Amand uses to determine if a patient is correctly responding to guaifenesin, is by examining lumps which he detects on a patient. He maps the body for such lumps. While the definition of fibromyalgia includes the presence of tender points in the body, these points are not necessarily lumpy. Plus, Dr. St. Amand finds many more lumps than the number of known tender points. They literally are all over the body, not just on muscles, but also on tendons and ligaments. Such lumps are not described by any other fibromyalgia researcher, and are not a part of the description of fibromyalgia. It's perplexing that Dr. St. Amands finds these "lesions" (as he often refers to them), while no other fibromyalgia researcher has found any such abnormalities that are specific to fibromyalgia.
Post #232,675 by admin 11/6/05 8:21:03 PM Reply	No, Armand's full of crap IMO. Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #232,680 by broomberg 11/6/05 8:29:39 PM Reply	Seems that way Seems like a lot of his "observations" were picking up on EDS symptoms. And the lumps are very common in EDS patients. I'm covered with them, as are my brothers, sister, and kids. And EDS was often confused with FM, until they figured out it was a genetic collagen defect. I bet he mis-diagnosed a bunch of EDS patients.
Post #232,682 by admin 11/6/05 8:49:42 PM Reply	Likely, then. Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #232,671 by boxley 11/6/05 7:39:34 PM Reply	dont waste your money! This is what I take [link\|http://www.nowfoods.com/index.php?action=search&search_text=magnesium+oxide&search_cat_id=1494&submit.x=4&submit.y=9\|http://www.nowfoods....it.x=4&submit.y=9] $7.00 for 8 ounces powder 1/4 teaspoon a day. If you get constipated a 1/2 teaspoon will fix that but dont drive too far away from a toilet thanx, bill "the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #232,673 by Andrew Grygus 11/6/05 8:09:30 PM Reply	The problem with suplements is . . . . . they are often in a form convenient to manufacture but different from those found in vegetables and meats (like left handed vs. right handed molecules, as an example). They are sometimes much harder for the body to absorb or less effective and may have to be used in quantities that produce side effects. Recent research on nutrition for flu resistance has shown natural sources to be better balanced and more effective. Suplements may be called for but should be examined with due caution. [link\|http://www.aaxnet.com\|AAx]
Post #232,676 by admin 11/6/05 8:21:44 PM Reply	Exactly. Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #232,693 by Ashton 11/6/05 9:42:11 PM Reply	Yep, one reason chard is often on my shopping list - besides I Like it, and spinach and broccoli.. (never understood adults' memory, continuation of stupid rebellion against anything not Sweet. Or, always picking frozen - for 'convenience'.) 2 min prep; few minutes steam or even boil briefly - if you use the juice too. I do go for the non-sprayed versions: Muricans will give up everything to make it all look Pretty. Ugly tastes just fine. Oh well, add to long Not-understood list.
Post #232,759 by folkert 11/7/05 11:42:33 AM Reply	ICLRPD: (though other may disagree) (new thread) Created as new thread #232758 titled [link\|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=232758\|ICLRPD: (though other may disagree)] -- [link\|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net\|greg], [link\|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry\|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ *i_wethey* Freedom is not FREE. Yeah, but 10s of Trillions of US Dollars? SELECT * FROM scog WHERE ethics > 0; 0 rows returned.
Post #233,460 by boxley 11/10/05 11:16:02 PM Reply	lets see eat swiss chard or gag down a chemical hmm.chemical "the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #233,461 by Andrew Grygus 11/10/05 11:24:14 PM Reply	Hmmmm. . . . Swiss chard: works. Chemical: might work - more research needed. Swiss chard: tasty in many recipes. Chemical: "gag down". Swiss chard: cheap (at least where I buy it) Chemical: generally not cheap. So we have something cheap and tasty that works. We have something expensive and blah that might work - but we really don't know. [link\|http://www.aaxnet.com\|AAx]
Post #233,462 by Ashton 11/10/05 11:38:18 PM Reply	And.. that is almost The General pharmchem dilemma :-/
Post #233,630 by broomberg 11/11/05 7:06:39 PM Reply	I like it As long as it is fresh. About the same as spinach to me. Of course, I drink my coffee double strength, black, no sugar. And chew my drugs to make them work faster.
Post #232,691 by admin 11/6/05 9:40:54 PM Reply	Turns out it might have a genetic component My aunt was diagnosed with fibromyalgia recently, apparently. My mother also has some of the symptoms, as did my maternal grandmother. A friend at work told me that a number of people in his family have FM or similar things, like chronic fatigue syndrome or lupus. Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #232,753 by folkert 11/7/05 11:34:24 AM Reply	Ahhh, so you come from "Bad Stock". Too bad... We will have to send you all to the gas chamber. -- [link\|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net\|greg], [link\|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry\|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ *i_wethey* Freedom is not FREE. Yeah, but 10s of Trillions of US Dollars? SELECT * FROM scog WHERE ethics > 0; 0 rows returned.
Post #234,189 by dws 11/15/05 1:32:38 AM Reply	Re: Turns out it might have a genetic component Several years back I had a several similar symptoms that got worse to the point of tracking down medical help. After getting nowhere with conventional MDs, I tracked down a Doc who did environmental medicine. A mineral/metals test showed that I had a high level of Mercury, which is treatable in one of several ways. It took about 4 months to get the levels down to something sane, and I feel a lot better for it. My sister has similar problems, but the "genetic" component was environmental. We were both exposed to Mercury when we were young, both directly via elemental Mercury (my Grandmother kept a vial of the stuff around for the grandkids to play with), through medicines (Mercurichrome (sp?), which was put on the smallest of cuts and scrapes (and stung like hell)), and via dental work. And then later through a diet of fish, including lots of Swordfish. Heavy metals can screw your body up in many interesting ways, with a diverse set of downstream side-effects. It might be worth seeing if your Doc can get you tested. There's a hair analysis test that's quick, painless, and fairly inexpensive. It might point in the direction of other tests, or rule heavy metals out as a factor.
Post #234,222 by admin 11/15/05 10:01:47 AM Reply	Thanks, I'll look into that. Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #232,779 by Nightowl 11/7/05 1:01:14 PM Reply	Re: Survey says: So what I've been given is a clinical diagnosis: fibromyalgia, which can only be diagnosed after a bunch of other things (as above) have been eliminated. Wow Scott. Someone on my Yahoo group, a good friend of John and I's from back on the BBS, just got diagnosed with that as well. If you find any good literature or anything useful that helps you, can I ask you to send me the links or titles or something so I can pass it along to her? Thanks! The good news: while it's an autoimmune disorder, it's not degenerative, nor fatal, nor any of a number of other nasty things I've been imagining throughout the testing for the past few months. The bad news: they don't know what causes it, nor do they have a treatment for anything other than symptoms. The other good news: most of the symptoms can be treated by lifestyle changes: exercise, better sleep (sleep is ultra-important), no caffeine, eat on a schedule, lessen stress and anxiety. The fatigue and pain can be treated with a drug (Effector), which can work at very low doses -- it does stuff with serotonin and the like, all of which I will be investigating heavily. The really good news: I can stop worrying about what it might be, and get on with living my life. I also konw that, apart from this weird disorder, I'm very healthy. :-P Hang in there, and do whatever it takes to be okay. I know you'll be allright, and I'll keep you in my prayers and thoughts. Brenda "I'll rock the darn boat all I want to, and if it's meant to stay afloat, then it will. If not, then we'll just all go down with the bloody ship!"
Post #235,419 by Arkadiy 11/21/05 9:02:53 PM Reply	Congratulatons! Since the tests did not kill you, you will surely live to the ripe old age. ------ 179. I will not outsource core functions. -- [link\|http://omega.med.yale.edu/~pcy5/misc/overlord2.htm\|.]

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