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New I completely disagree with that assertion.
Making something more configurable only adds a component of usability to those who chose to actually use that ability.

Establishing what is being stated in this thread as "sane defaults" simply establishes the baseline usability.

Dumbing down for the masses has already been accomplished. In the end it created an entire subculture devoted to designing an alternative. And as appears to be the case with Gnome development...this subculture (or at least a portion of it) appears quite willing to repeat that history.
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
New Let me explain something to you.

When you add features and configurability to a system, you have to decide where to put them. In other words, if you're going to provide Feature X and allow users to configure Feature X, you have to provide controls for it somewhere. Do this often enough and the number of controls and options gets to be a bit unwieldy. At that point usually somebody has the bright idea of just adding an "Advanced" panel on the configuration, and sticking all the extra options in it (or an "Advanced" sub-menu off the main menu), but there are two problems with this:

\r\n\r\n
    \r\n
  1. It doesn't address the root problem (too many features and options to manage) and, inevitably,
  2. \r\n
  3. The "Advanced" panel/menu becomes hopelessly cluttered.
  4. \r\n
\r\n\r\n

When you reach this point you have to step back and evaluate your feature set, and ask yourself: what do we really need? Anything you can't justify based on significant demand and significant usage should go. And anything that confuses more people than it helps should go. Firefox did it, GNOME's doing it. It's a fact of development that can't be avoided, and you can complain about "dumbing down" all you like without changing it.

--\r\nYou cooin' with my bird?
\r\n[link|http://www.shtuff.us/|shtuff]
New Now let *me* explain something to *you*
It's not that we don't understand what you're saying, we don't agree. While I don't know of anyone else here who does usability as their primary job, a lot of us have spent quite a bit of time studying it. You can explain your point however you want, we'll still understand and still disagree.


Let's talk some specifics:

* Why is Screensaver under Advanced, while Network Proxy, PGP Preferences and Remote Desktop are top level?

* How is Printing a System Tool?

* Why doesn't Screen Resolution work in a default installation?

* And if it doesn't work, why is it on the menu?

* Why is the Keyboard settings under Accessibility a non-resizable window that doesn't fit vertically within the viewable area of my 800 x 600 laptop display?

None of these strike me as the type of things designed with usability in mind. But hey, at least they got rid of all those confusing options.
===

Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
New Bug. Bug. Bug. Distro Bug. Not a bug. Bug.
Filed 'em? (I should note that the usability-borked "advanced" submenu has gone in 2.10, at least as shipped by Ubuntu).

Having said all that, I've switched to Mac OS X as my primary desktop, so it's all a bit academic to me.


Peter
[link|http://www.ubuntulinux.org|Ubuntu Linux]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
New Re: Let me explain something to you.
When you add features and configurability to a system, you have to decide where to put them.


Our point exactly. Thats where HCI folks like you come in.

To the remaining point of "everybody has screwed this up before so Gnome development was correct in just throwing in the towel and taking that crap out", I continue to disagree. Try and justify it all you like. They are repeating a failed history. It drove me away and has done the same to several other folks around here.
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
     Bizarre KDE Bug - (cwbrenn) - (83)
         That IS strange. - (imric)
         I have the answer... - (folkert) - (81)
             Yabut - (altmann) - (1)
                 You didn't get my meaning of... - (folkert)
             I've had no problems with KDE - (cwbrenn) - (77)
                 Oh, I know Chris.... - (folkert) - (76)
                     Oh - OK. Gnome sucks. - (imric) - (75)
                         I use GNOME. - (folkert) - (55)
                             No, it's not insane. - (pwhysall) - (45)
                                 *shakes head sadly* - (imric) - (44)
                                     /me points at KDE - (pwhysall) - (1)
                                         I agree! - (imric)
                                     Except - (ubernostrum) - (41)
                                         Ummm. - (imric) - (40)
                                             I don't think it's silly at all. - (pwhysall) - (39)
                                                 What's silly - (imric) - (36)
                                                     I don't think it's a hedge argument. - (cwbrenn) - (1)
                                                         Mebbe. - (imric)
                                                     Feel free to ask for whatever you like. - (pwhysall) - (6)
                                                         Re: Feel free to ask for whatever you like. - (ubernostrum)
                                                         To be honest, it's not that important to me - (imric) - (3)
                                                             To most computer users, - (ubernostrum) - (2)
                                                                 No it means "I can change the wallpaper." - (static) - (1)
                                                                     That's been a big thing in web-design the past few years. - (ubernostrum)
                                                         Tell that to Microsoft - (drewk)
                                                     I see. - (ubernostrum) - (26)
                                                         ROFL - actually, right! - (imric) - (25)
                                                             Ah yes, all that configurability. - (ubernostrum) - (24)
                                                                 Ah yes, all that availability. - (imric) - (23)
                                                                     You don't get it. - (ubernostrum) - (22)
                                                                         Huh? - (bepatient) - (16)
                                                                             "Removing functionality people find useful" - (ubernostrum) - (15)
                                                                                 Different Levels of Configuration options. - (folkert) - (14)
                                                                                     Harder than you think. - (pwhysall)
                                                                                     Users are stupid. - (ubernostrum) - (12)
                                                                                         I wonder... - (folkert) - (11)
                                                                                             I'm not. - (ubernostrum) - (10)
                                                                                                 Bah. Firefox made configuration tweaking MORE accessable. -NT - (imric) - (9)
                                                                                                     To expand on that - (drewk) - (6)
                                                                                                         And I'm saying - (ubernostrum) - (5)
                                                                                                             I completely disagree with that assertion. - (bepatient) - (4)
                                                                                                                 Let me explain something to you. - (ubernostrum) - (3)
                                                                                                                     Now let *me* explain something to *you* - (drewk) - (1)
                                                                                                                         Bug. Bug. Bug. Distro Bug. Not a bug. Bug. - (pwhysall)
                                                                                                                     Re: Let me explain something to you. - (bepatient)
                                                                                                     Re: Bah. Firefox made configuration tweaking MORE accessabl - (ubernostrum) - (1)
                                                                                                         So what? - (imric)
                                                                         Ummm. What? - (imric) - (4)
                                                                             The gconf editor is no harder than about:config -NT - (pwhysall) - (3)
                                                                                 And about:config is easier - (imric) - (2)
                                                                                     What was there before... - (pwhysall) - (1)
                                                                                         One last word (can't resist) - (imric)
                                                 Zenworks... - (folkert) - (1)
                                                     Does Linux Zenworks do policy, and if so, how? -NT - (pwhysall)
                             What Peter said. - (ubernostrum) - (8)
                                 That's fine but... - (ben_tilly) - (6)
                                     I sympathise with that. - (pwhysall) - (1)
                                         I'm pickier than you think - (ben_tilly)
                                     GNOME integration - (ubernostrum) - (3)
                                         To me, GNOME sucks less than most other stuff. - (folkert) - (2)
                                             Coming from OS/2... - (cwbrenn)
                                             Maybe doing it every day is the trick - (ben_tilly)
                                 That's really the part that ticks me off: - (admin)
                         What about those SMB shares? - (Another Scott) - (18)
                             You can do all of that! - (pwhysall) - (17)
                                 Couldn't prove it by me. - (imric) - (7)
                                     Worked out-of-the-box for me. - (ubernostrum) - (6)
                                         Which means what? - (imric) - (5)
                                             Honestly? - (ubernostrum) - (4)
                                                 Uh huh. Yah. This discussion is OVER. - (imric) - (3)
                                                     Really? - (ubernostrum) - (1)
                                                         pull the other one - (boxley)
                                                     s/darkness/being the defacto Linux standard DE/ - (pwhysall)
                                 Behold! The new BMW Gnome 75! - (Another Scott) - (8)
                                     Ah, yes. - (ubernostrum) - (7)
                                         Happy to oblige. :-/ -NT - (Another Scott)
                                         When in doubt, claim superiority. -NT - (bepatient) - (4)
                                             Re: When in doubt, claim superiority. - (ubernostrum) - (3)
                                                 That's a false dichotomy. - (admin) - (2)
                                                     Nobody ever said "no configuration" - (ubernostrum) - (1)
                                                         Neither did I. -NT - (admin)
                                         We seem to be talking about different things. - (Another Scott)
             Thats why I use XFCE. - (bepatient)

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