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New Ummm. What?
My biggest and most salient point was about:config - which directly concerns the topic being discussed. Extensions make up for some of the deficiencies, true. That's part of what makes firefox more flexible, the ability to choose, download and configure features placed within easy reach of the user, not just your power-user. That's part of being flexible, running and (easily) configuring just the pieces you want to.

On top of that, about:config made fine-tuned configuring more available, while firefox got a simpler base UI at the same time. Meanwhile, firefox lost none of it's popularity. Gnome has made fine-tuning LESS available; time will tell if that makes it more popular, but I think not.

As I have said, repeatedly, I have no problems with 'sane defaults' or simplicity as a base. It's the fact that Gnome is harder to configure than it has to be, harder than it used to be. You think that's a good feature, I think that's a problem. I can't see people beating down the doors for more difficulty in configuration, you do. You think that there is a solid wall between power users and regular users, I see a painted line. I have no problem with locking down a desktop when necessary; that is NOT the same thing as making it a PITA to configure.

And - insist I'm complaining all you like; I'm not. I simply won't use it until it's done. If I think it's done 'wrong', if it's a pain to use, I won't use it at all. I haven't badmouthed Gnome, the developers, or anything else but expressed concern that the direction Gnome is headed will marginalize it. My ONLY complaint about Gnome is that it seems slower to me than KDE; and that's something that I would expect to be remedied over time anyway. IOW, it's not a big concern.

And - BTW, the old saw of 'write it yourself'? I might, if it mattered to me at all. It doesn't, though.
[link|http://www.runningworks.com|
]
Imric's Tips for Living
  • Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
  • Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
  • Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.


Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
 
 
New The gconf editor is no harder than about:config


Peter
[link|http://www.ubuntulinux.org|Ubuntu Linux]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
New And about:config is easier
than what was there before. Which was nothing. 'Nuff said.
[link|http://www.runningworks.com|
]
Imric's Tips for Living
  • Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
  • Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
  • Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.


Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
 
 
Expand Edited by imric March 14, 2005, 02:42:00 PM EST
New What was there before...
...was a confusing mess.

I can see we've gone circular here, so I'll not beat the bloody horse stain too much more.

The bottom line is that GNOME is now more usable by regular users than it was before. Regular users (i.e. !you and people like you) don't want to configure stuff. At all. Ever. They want to write the memo, send the email, make the document and then go the hell home. Or they want to print the photo, buy junk on eBay, send the email, look at the funny video, and go the hell out to the pub.

Configuring windows into groups with a programmable window manager is, oddly enough, not on these users' radar.

KDE has chosen to plough a different furrow, and that Kontrol Kentre will come back to bite them in the bum, mark my words. It's already like the elephant in the boardroom.


Peter
[link|http://www.ubuntulinux.org|Ubuntu Linux]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
New One last word (can't resist)
If a user doesn't want to configure, they won't. Configurability does not lessen the value of the desktop. Those clueless users that want only what everybody else has, and no more, they shouldn't be forced to configure. By all means, sane defaults!

But... being forced to do the equivalent of editing the registry to tweak (unless, as has been pointed out, you install some other package that makes it easy to configure but is not part of Gnome) does NOT ad value to the desktop. Making it a PITA to tweak isn't locking it down either (as should be possible, and I've said elsewhere) - it's just a PITA.
[link|http://www.runningworks.com|
]
Imric's Tips for Living
  • Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
  • Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
  • Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.


Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
 
 
     Bizarre KDE Bug - (cwbrenn) - (83)
         That IS strange. - (imric)
         I have the answer... - (folkert) - (81)
             Yabut - (altmann) - (1)
                 You didn't get my meaning of... - (folkert)
             I've had no problems with KDE - (cwbrenn) - (77)
                 Oh, I know Chris.... - (folkert) - (76)
                     Oh - OK. Gnome sucks. - (imric) - (75)
                         I use GNOME. - (folkert) - (55)
                             No, it's not insane. - (pwhysall) - (45)
                                 *shakes head sadly* - (imric) - (44)
                                     /me points at KDE - (pwhysall) - (1)
                                         I agree! - (imric)
                                     Except - (ubernostrum) - (41)
                                         Ummm. - (imric) - (40)
                                             I don't think it's silly at all. - (pwhysall) - (39)
                                                 What's silly - (imric) - (36)
                                                     I don't think it's a hedge argument. - (cwbrenn) - (1)
                                                         Mebbe. - (imric)
                                                     Feel free to ask for whatever you like. - (pwhysall) - (6)
                                                         Re: Feel free to ask for whatever you like. - (ubernostrum)
                                                         To be honest, it's not that important to me - (imric) - (3)
                                                             To most computer users, - (ubernostrum) - (2)
                                                                 No it means "I can change the wallpaper." - (static) - (1)
                                                                     That's been a big thing in web-design the past few years. - (ubernostrum)
                                                         Tell that to Microsoft - (drewk)
                                                     I see. - (ubernostrum) - (26)
                                                         ROFL - actually, right! - (imric) - (25)
                                                             Ah yes, all that configurability. - (ubernostrum) - (24)
                                                                 Ah yes, all that availability. - (imric) - (23)
                                                                     You don't get it. - (ubernostrum) - (22)
                                                                         Huh? - (bepatient) - (16)
                                                                             "Removing functionality people find useful" - (ubernostrum) - (15)
                                                                                 Different Levels of Configuration options. - (folkert) - (14)
                                                                                     Harder than you think. - (pwhysall)
                                                                                     Users are stupid. - (ubernostrum) - (12)
                                                                                         I wonder... - (folkert) - (11)
                                                                                             I'm not. - (ubernostrum) - (10)
                                                                                                 Bah. Firefox made configuration tweaking MORE accessable. -NT - (imric) - (9)
                                                                                                     To expand on that - (drewk) - (6)
                                                                                                         And I'm saying - (ubernostrum) - (5)
                                                                                                             I completely disagree with that assertion. - (bepatient) - (4)
                                                                                                                 Let me explain something to you. - (ubernostrum) - (3)
                                                                                                                     Now let *me* explain something to *you* - (drewk) - (1)
                                                                                                                         Bug. Bug. Bug. Distro Bug. Not a bug. Bug. - (pwhysall)
                                                                                                                     Re: Let me explain something to you. - (bepatient)
                                                                                                     Re: Bah. Firefox made configuration tweaking MORE accessabl - (ubernostrum) - (1)
                                                                                                         So what? - (imric)
                                                                         Ummm. What? - (imric) - (4)
                                                                             The gconf editor is no harder than about:config -NT - (pwhysall) - (3)
                                                                                 And about:config is easier - (imric) - (2)
                                                                                     What was there before... - (pwhysall) - (1)
                                                                                         One last word (can't resist) - (imric)
                                                 Zenworks... - (folkert) - (1)
                                                     Does Linux Zenworks do policy, and if so, how? -NT - (pwhysall)
                             What Peter said. - (ubernostrum) - (8)
                                 That's fine but... - (ben_tilly) - (6)
                                     I sympathise with that. - (pwhysall) - (1)
                                         I'm pickier than you think - (ben_tilly)
                                     GNOME integration - (ubernostrum) - (3)
                                         To me, GNOME sucks less than most other stuff. - (folkert) - (2)
                                             Coming from OS/2... - (cwbrenn)
                                             Maybe doing it every day is the trick - (ben_tilly)
                                 That's really the part that ticks me off: - (admin)
                         What about those SMB shares? - (Another Scott) - (18)
                             You can do all of that! - (pwhysall) - (17)
                                 Couldn't prove it by me. - (imric) - (7)
                                     Worked out-of-the-box for me. - (ubernostrum) - (6)
                                         Which means what? - (imric) - (5)
                                             Honestly? - (ubernostrum) - (4)
                                                 Uh huh. Yah. This discussion is OVER. - (imric) - (3)
                                                     Really? - (ubernostrum) - (1)
                                                         pull the other one - (boxley)
                                                     s/darkness/being the defacto Linux standard DE/ - (pwhysall)
                                 Behold! The new BMW Gnome 75! - (Another Scott) - (8)
                                     Ah, yes. - (ubernostrum) - (7)
                                         Happy to oblige. :-/ -NT - (Another Scott)
                                         When in doubt, claim superiority. -NT - (bepatient) - (4)
                                             Re: When in doubt, claim superiority. - (ubernostrum) - (3)
                                                 That's a false dichotomy. - (admin) - (2)
                                                     Nobody ever said "no configuration" - (ubernostrum) - (1)
                                                         Neither did I. -NT - (admin)
                                         We seem to be talking about different things. - (Another Scott)
             Thats why I use XFCE. - (bepatient)

The meat is so under cooked it is starting to eat the salad.
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