This was not intended as hazing

Here are a couple of questions to ask yourself:
*How come you're only asking me? I dont see you asking the other guys about their sexual preferences. Is this some kind of initiation? Okay, I'll bite.(happy now, Andrew?)

Two reasons. First of all I don't see them disagreeing with my characterizations of male and female behaviour. Secondly I happen to know a fair amount about most of them. I don't need to ask about Inthane, for instance, I've met him. And his wife Susan.

1. Are there any famous people that you'd sleep with if you got the chance? I'm not asking whether you're trying to land them, but if the opportunity arose to spend time on Brad Pitt's lap or cozied up with Pierce Brosnin, would you turn it down? (If they don't turn your crank, then substitute people who are more to your taste.)

*Who doesnt have a list of famous people they'd cozy up with? Brad Pitt? Too pretty. Pierce Brosnin? Overgroomed. I'm oddly attracted to Anderson Cooper. And Heath Ledger. And Keith Urban. And that kid that plays Harry Potter.

I meant this as food for your thought, not to answer publically.

But since you mention it, isn't it odd that the vast majority of us are likely to wind up in relationships that (at least nominally) are supposed to be exclusive, but most people maintain a list of famous people that they'd go for anyways? Something doesn't quite add up here. As Shaw said, "We've established what you are, madam, now we are just haggling over the price."

Fame in our society is just a normal social dynamic taken to an absurd extreme. The way that people react to fame is how they've always reacted to success and status. If there are so many famous people that you'd sleep with, how many non-famous ones could trigger that reaction also? On what terms?

That is the A-level strategy that I was referring to above. Most guys can't play it. Plenty try. Those who achieve even moderate success leave a lot of broken hearts.

2. Looking back on your past boyfriends, what is the nice guy/jerk ratio? What reason do you have to believe that your next guy is going to be better than the last few? (Most of us keep on recreating the same relationship over and over again..)

*And the reason we are attracted to the same type of person over and over again is because it's what we know and we're comfortable with it. Even though it might suck, it's easier to do this than change. Change is hard.

That, and also our reactions tend to follow a pattern. To get a different relationship you often don't need a different person, you just need to interact differently with the same person. To get the same relationship you don't need the same person (or even a very similar one), you just need to develop the same interpersonal dynamics. But since your half of the interaction is going to be the same, and everyone has some common reactions, it is easy to train someone else to fill in the missing pieces.

Nice guy/jerk ratio- overall, mostly nice guys. Engineers, mostly. I married someone I thought was a nice guy, and he was even able to pull this persona off for most of our marriage. But when his true self started leaking out it was time to pack my bags.

I hope you know that that's unusual. It is also possible that many of the guys that you thought were nice were not necessarily nice, but never felt that they had the opportunity to act in a not nice way.

That applies to everyone, incidentally. There are very few saints in this world, and very few devils. Frequently what divides good from bad is perceived opportunity. (Machievelli thought that "frequently" in this case is "virtually always".) There is certainly evidence that bad behaviour becomes more common as power imbalances become more extreme. For instance this shows up very starkly in abuse statistics - abusive behaviour is strongly correlated with the victim's dependence on the abuser. (I'm not saying that most guys are abusers - far from it - but what holds for extremes of bad behaviour also holds for milder expressions.)

I'm older now, wiser, and still want a nice B-level guy. Unfortunately I'm a working single mother who has precious little time to devote to finding Mr. B-level.

Well, good luck.

For most single (and far to many non-single) women that I know, the answers are respectively, "of course" and "uh..." As several have noted, women consistently say one thing and do another. Which should we pay attention to?

*It appears that most of you are married. You bagged a wife- what are you complaining about?

Most of us are indeed. Andrew is a notable (and vocally cynical) exception. I've personally been married for 15 years and have no plans to .

While some of us are complaining, I'm not. I'm commenting on what the world looks like to me. I like to understand the world.

Cheers,
Ben

. . and admit that a woman might actually want to concentrate on attracting a man. How is that to be done when cosmetics, celulite treatments, fancy hair styles and the fashion industry are all for one-upping other women?

Basics are not to be too scrawney, have good posture, seem pleasant and approachable, and keep your hair as long as she can properly manage it. Forget fancy hair styling, noticeable makeup and perfumes (unless you want to hook a lounge lizard).

The real key though is clothes. Not high fashion or hooker style clothes but clothes you know how to wear and know make you look good - to men. A woman who wears her cloths well can look enticing in anything she selects (because, of course, she selects what she looks good in). For others it may take a little more effort. I guess you learn by ignoring the fashion ads and watching other women.

I remember when I worked for a place that did electronic assembly many long years ago. The assemblers then were a mix of white women (mostly lesbians) and Mexican girls. Let me tell you those Mexicn girls knew how to dress and they dressed to kill, even for work on an assembly line.

Post #194,175 by ben_tilly 2/11/05 12:30:16 PM Reply	This was not intended as hazing Here are a couple of questions to ask yourself: How come you're only asking me? I dont see you asking the other guys about their sexual preferences. Is this some kind of initiation? Okay, I'll bite.(happy now, Andrew?) Two reasons. First of all I don't see them disagreeing with my characterizations of male and female behaviour. Secondly I happen to know a fair amount about most of them. I don't need to ask about Inthane, for instance, I've met him. And his wife Susan. 1. Are there any famous people that you'd sleep with if you got the chance? I'm not asking whether you're trying to land them, but if the opportunity arose to spend time on Brad Pitt's lap or cozied up with Pierce Brosnin, would you turn it down? (If they don't turn your crank, then substitute people who are more to your taste.) Who doesnt have a list of famous people they'd cozy up with? Brad Pitt? Too pretty. Pierce Brosnin? Overgroomed. I'm oddly attracted to Anderson Cooper. And Heath Ledger. And Keith Urban. And that kid that plays Harry Potter. I meant this as food for your thought, not to answer publically. But since you mention it, isn't it odd that the vast majority of us are likely to wind up in relationships that (at least nominally) are supposed to be exclusive, but most people maintain a list of famous people that they'd go for anyways? Something doesn't quite add up here. As Shaw said, "We've established what you are, madam, now we are just haggling over the price." Fame in our society is just a normal social dynamic taken to an absurd extreme. The way that people react to fame is how they've always reacted to success and status. If there are so many famous people that you'd sleep with, how many non-famous ones could trigger that reaction also? On what terms? That is the A-level strategy that I was referring to above. Most guys can't play it. Plenty try. Those who achieve even moderate success leave a lot of broken hearts. 2. Looking back on your past boyfriends, what is the nice guy/jerk ratio? What reason do you have to believe that your next guy is going to be better than the last few? (Most of us keep on recreating the same relationship over and over again..) And the reason we are attracted to the same type of person over and over again is because it's what we know and we're comfortable with it. Even though it might suck, it's easier to do this than change. Change is hard. That, and also our reactions tend to follow a pattern. To get a different relationship you often don't need a different person, you just need to interact differently with the same person. To get the same relationship you don't need the same person (or even a very similar one), you just need to develop the same interpersonal dynamics. But since your half of the interaction is going to be the same, and everyone has some common reactions, it is easy to train someone else to fill in the missing pieces. Nice guy/jerk ratio- overall, mostly nice guys. Engineers, mostly. I married someone I thought was a nice guy, and he was even able to pull this persona off for most of our marriage. But when his true self started leaking out it was time to pack my bags. I hope you know that that's unusual. It is also possible that many of the guys that you thought were nice were not necessarily nice, but never felt that they had the opportunity to act in a not nice way. That applies to everyone, incidentally. There are very few saints in this world, and very few devils. Frequently what divides good from bad is perceived opportunity. (Machievelli thought that "frequently" in this case is "virtually always".) There is certainly evidence that bad behaviour becomes more common as power imbalances become more extreme. For instance this shows up very starkly in abuse statistics - abusive behaviour is strongly correlated with the victim's dependence on the abuser. (I'm not saying that most guys are abusers - far from it - but what holds for extremes of bad behaviour also holds for milder expressions.) I'm older now, wiser, and still want a nice B-level guy. Unfortunately I'm a working single mother who has precious little time to devote to finding Mr. B-level. Well, good luck. For most single (and far to many non-single) women that I know, the answers are respectively, "of course" and "uh..." As several have noted, women consistently say one thing and do another. Which should we pay attention to? It appears that most of you are married. You bagged a wife- what are you complaining about? Most of us are indeed. Andrew is a notable (and vocally cynical) exception. I've personally been married for 15 years and have no plans to . While some of us are complaining, I'm not. I'm commenting on what the world looks like to me. I like to understand the world. Cheers, Ben I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
Post #194,221 by Andrew Grygus 2/11/05 2:45:01 PM Reply	Yeah, cynical Like why do I end up with women who just wnat food and sex and run at a hint of "commitment"? That's not the way it's supposed to be, is it? I thought that was the guy's job. [link\|http://www.aaxnet.com\|AAx]
Post #194,225 by ben_tilly 2/11/05 3:27:37 PM Reply	That is unusual Though I have to say that a confirmed bachelor who is also a gourmet cook would tend to attract women who just want food and sex... Cheers, Ben I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
Post #194,253 by Andrew Grygus 2/11/05 4:43:00 PM 2/11/05 5:01:39 PM Reply	It ain' I that . . . . . . confirmed the bachelorhood - they did. I've been pretty neutral on the subject but never indicated I rejected marriage. [link\|http://www.aaxnet.com\|AAx] Edited by Andrew Grygus Feb. 11, 2005, 05:01:39 PM EST Expand All History
Post #194,285 by daemon 2/11/05 9:50:25 PM Reply	prolly if they are not already into a commited relationship at the age I am guessing they are, they aint worth a shit, exceptions such as slugbug and bio are noted and rare. If they have been alone for a long time, prolly prefer it that way. regards, daemon I love her dearly, far beyond any creature I've ever known, and I can prove it, for never once in almost seventy years of married life have I taken her by the throat. Mind you, it's been a near thing once or twice. George Macdonald Frasier Clearwater highschool marching band [link\|http://www.chstornadoband.org/\|http://www.chstornadoband.org/]
Post #194,294 by drewk 2/11/05 10:29:04 PM Reply	And wouldn't they be thinking the same of him? === Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link\|http://DocHope.com\|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats]. [link\|http://DocHope.com\|http://DocHope.com]
Post #194,297 by daemon 2/11/05 10:31:54 PM Reply	naw, they can see he has "things" but figure its too hard to separate him from them. regards, daemon I love her dearly, far beyond any creature I've ever known, and I can prove it, for never once in almost seventy years of married life have I taken her by the throat. Mind you, it's been a near thing once or twice. George Macdonald Frasier Clearwater highschool marching band [link\|http://www.chstornadoband.org/\|http://www.chstornadoband.org/]
Post #194,352 by bionerd 2/12/05 11:13:55 AM Reply	Re: Yeah, cynical Umm- you dont wear that helmet all the time, do you? I dont think chicks dig helmets. **************** "I think animal testing is a terrible idea; they get all nervous and give the wrong answers." djmoou85@sbcglobal.net
Post #194,355 by Another Scott 2/12/05 11:21:49 AM Reply	Yeah, they love stogies though. AG looks more conventionally civilized [link\|http://www.aaxnet.com/images/ajg02a.jpg\|here]. :-) Cheers, Scott.
Post #194,363 by bionerd 2/12/05 12:11:26 PM Reply	Well, at least Monica does **************** "I think animal testing is a terrible idea; they get all nervous and give the wrong answers." djmoou85@sbcglobal.net
Post #194,364 by Another Scott 2/12/05 12:19:29 PM Reply	She's a "special case", I think.
Post #194,435 by inthane-chan 2/13/05 1:03:28 PM Reply	Okay, you're cool now in my book.
Post #194,476 by drewk 2/13/05 8:42:02 PM Reply	Ummm ... odd that's what it takes === Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link\|http://DocHope.com\|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats]. [link\|http://DocHope.com\|http://DocHope.com]
Post #194,351 by bionerd 2/12/05 11:11:51 AM Reply	Agree to Disagree While I still hold my ground, I graciously concede from this debate. Kind of sorry I brought the whole thing up! Final comments: 1.\tI agree that marketing and cultural expectations play a major role in how we ALL present ourselves. For example, there is a commercial for underarm deodorant that attempts to convince women we need this product because it is important to have well-moisturized underarms. Good luck trying to sell that. But I still refuse to believe that men don\ufffdt respond to our primping and you\ufffdll never convince me otherwise. 2.\tAnd for the record, I rarely wear makeup and spend about 10 minutes primping in front of the mirror. My usual attire is jeans and tennis shoes. My underarms are un-moisturized and I\ufffdm still damn cute. For the most part, I\ufffdm oblivious to what happens on Madison Ave (unless I\ufffdm walking on Madison Ave and am about to get hit by a car) \ufffdCant we all just get along?\ufffd- Rodney King **************** "I think animal testing is a terrible idea; they get all nervous and give the wrong answers."
Post #194,354 by Andrew Grygus 2/12/05 11:21:49 AM Reply	Apparently not . . . . . . Rodney King keeps ending up in jail. [link\|http://www.aaxnet.com\|AAx]
Post #194,356 by Another Scott 2/12/05 11:23:09 AM Reply	:-) Er... :-/
Post #194,399 by tuberculosis 2/13/05 1:30:14 AM Reply	Yes, please, new topic you start. "Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" --Mark Twain "The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." --Albert Einstein "This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses." --George W. Bush
Post #194,423 by bionerd 2/13/05 10:09:56 AM Reply	Are You Kidding?!? I think I started enough already. You go first. "I think animal testing is a terrible idea; they get all nervous and give the wrong answers."
Post #194,442 by admin 2/13/05 1:36:11 PM Reply	Just to warn you ahead of time... If you see something at the bottom of one of the forum pages here that looks strangely familiar, and in fact you could absolutely just swear that you wrote that somewhere... Then you're probably right. Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #194,445 by Another Scott 2/13/05 1:43:10 PM Reply	LPRDism Spotting!
Post #194,521 by bionerd 2/14/05 8:56:41 AM Reply	What is this LRPD you speak of ? Seriously- what does it stand for? "I think animal testing is a terrible idea; they get all nervous and give the wrong answers."
Post #194,525 by hnick 2/14/05 9:13:52 AM Reply	Little Red Plasma Dot literally There is also a random comment at the bottom of the page which is also referred to as an LRPD. It is taken from posts and books and Monty Python skits and ... The serious addicts keep refreshing pages to see the messages change. They are sometimes rather apropos of the post thread above. Sometimes just random.
Post #194,536 by admin 2/14/05 9:56:14 AM Reply	Please do not spit too loud, thank you. Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #194,542 by bepatient 2/14/05 10:23:27 AM Reply	And we hug around the weasels. If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #194,560 by folkert 2/14/05 11:58:14 AM Reply	ObLRPD: Finding him was pure luck. -- [link\|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net\|greg], [link\|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry\|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ *i_wethey* [link\|http://it.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=134485&cid=11233230\|"Microsoft Security" is an even better oxymoron than "Miltary Intelligence"] No matter how much Microsoft supporters whine about how Linux and other operating systems have just as many bugs as their operating systems do, the bottom line is that the serious, gut-wrenching problems happen on Windows, not on Linux, not on Mac OS. -- [link\|http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1622086,00.asp\|source]
Post #194,561 by admin 2/14/05 11:59:10 AM Reply	Just slightly more difficult than choosing your parents. Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #194,592 by Meerkat 2/14/05 3:05:08 PM Reply	It's administration policy. Two out of three people wonder where the other one is.
Post #194,595 by folkert 2/14/05 3:12:37 PM Reply	Yeah, but they were all dying of the plague anyway... -- [link\|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net\|greg], [link\|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry\|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ *i_wethey* [link\|http://it.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=134485&cid=11233230\|"Microsoft Security" is an even better oxymoron than "Miltary Intelligence"] No matter how much Microsoft supporters whine about how Linux and other operating systems have just as many bugs as their operating systems do, the bottom line is that the serious, gut-wrenching problems happen on Windows, not on Linux, not on Mac OS. -- [link\|http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1622086,00.asp\|source]
Post #194,594 by folkert 2/14/05 3:09:50 PM Reply	My parents just came back from a planet where the dominant life form had no bilateral symmetry, and all I got was this stupid F-Shirt. -- [link\|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net\|greg], [link\|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry\|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ *i_wethey* [link\|http://it.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=134485&cid=11233230\|"Microsoft Security" is an even better oxymoron than "Miltary Intelligence"] No matter how much Microsoft supporters whine about how Linux and other operating systems have just as many bugs as their operating systems do, the bottom line is that the serious, gut-wrenching problems happen on Windows, not on Linux, not on Mac OS. -- [link\|http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1622086,00.asp\|source]
Post #194,674 by broomberg 2/14/05 8:34:13 PM Reply	No one wins in an LRPD eating contest.
Post #194,676 by admin 2/14/05 8:40:11 PM Reply	OK, you're chuffed. Whatever that means. Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #194,677 by broomberg 2/14/05 8:41:44 PM Reply	Hey - That's mine! YAY! And Peter, you never responded.
Post #194,679 by admin 2/14/05 8:43:09 PM Reply	You got the chainsaw. Now find some meat! I love this thing... Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #194,688 by bepatient 2/14/05 9:15:14 PM Reply	I'm sure I've heard those last 3 lines in an unsavoury movie me too:) If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #194,756 by inthane-chan 2/15/05 11:07:31 AM Reply	Splat.
Post #194,760 by pwhysall 2/15/05 11:14:38 AM Reply	What was it about again? (new thread) Created as new thread #194759 titled [link\|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=194759\|What was it about again?] Peter [link\|http://www.ubuntulinux.org\|Ubuntu Linux] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Post #194,686 by ben_tilly 2/14/05 9:09:42 PM Reply	I'd probably enjoy it, actually. I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
Post #194,461 by tuberculosis 2/13/05 6:52:01 PM Reply	I've started a couple [link\|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=194402\|Jump] [link\|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=194403\|in] [link\|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=194460\|whenever]. "Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" --Mark Twain "The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." --Albert Einstein "This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses." --George W. Bush
Post #194,516 by Ashton 2/14/05 6:48:31 AM Reply	Re: Are You Kidding?!? Nicely done arabesque. :-) You might find [link\|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=194512\| this one] to clear air of any remote whiff of piling-on.. I think the right-brain / left-brain artifice is as good a start as any, in trying to fathom the perpetual dullardness of males re females; especially in this culture! where the Puritan roots guarantee the ~Worst in rationalizing of patronizing behavior as, er: The Natural Order (ie The Story I Like) cha cha cha
Post #194,524 by bionerd 2/14/05 9:05:44 AM Reply	Nicely done arabesque. :-) Yeah, I thought so. :-) "I think animal testing is a terrible idea; they get all nervous and give the wrong answers."
Post #194,412 by jbrabeck 2/13/05 9:20:52 AM Reply	Can we be the judges? and I’m still damn cute. ;-) A good friend will come and bail you out of jail ... but, a true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "Damn...that was fun!"
Post #194,419 by daemon 2/13/05 9:37:51 AM Reply	if she posts here of course she's damn cute. Dont drive em off unescessarily, besides what do you care, chitown is a long way from the twin cities. regaeds, daemon I love her dearly, far beyond any creature I've ever known, and I can prove it, for never once in almost seventy years of married life have I taken her by the throat. Mind you, it's been a near thing once or twice. George Macdonald Frasier Clearwater highschool marching band [link\|http://www.chstornadoband.org/\|http://www.chstornadoband.org/]
Post #194,421 by jbrabeck 2/13/05 9:47:38 AM Reply	Kewl, posting here Makes women damn cute. And men? Extraordinarily handsome and provides 'em with super powers... Gee, even Marlowe? [image\|/forums/images/warning.png\|0\|This is sarcasm...] For evidence read, seems that the men here are "well rounded".... ;-j And to Bionerd, Welcome. I've enjoy reading your posts. Keep it up, it's great to see someone take on the guys. A good friend will come and bail you out of jail ... but, a true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "Damn...that was fun!"
Post #194,441 by Andrew Grygus 2/13/05 1:35:50 PM Reply	OK, I'm going to back off a little here . . . . . and admit that a woman might actually want to concentrate on attracting a man. How is that to be done when cosmetics, celulite treatments, fancy hair styles and the fashion industry are all for one-upping other women? Basics are not to be too scrawney, have good posture, seem pleasant and approachable, and keep your hair as long as she can properly manage it. Forget fancy hair styling, noticeable makeup and perfumes (unless you want to hook a lounge lizard). The real key though is clothes. Not high fashion or hooker style clothes but clothes you know how to wear and know make you look good - to men. A woman who wears her cloths well can look enticing in anything she selects (because, of course, she selects what she looks good in). For others it may take a little more effort. I guess you learn by ignoring the fashion ads and watching other women. I remember when I worked for a place that did electronic assembly many long years ago. The assemblers then were a mix of white women (mostly lesbians) and Mexican girls. Let me tell you those Mexicn girls knew how to dress and they dressed to kill, even for work on an assembly line. [link\|http://www.aaxnet.com\|AAx]
Post #194,473 by drewk 2/13/05 8:33:05 PM Reply	One other thing Outside of Appalachia, American men seem to have an almost universal disdain for snaggleteeth. === Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link\|http://DocHope.com\|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats]. [link\|http://DocHope.com\|http://DocHope.com]
Post #194,493 by ben_tilly 2/13/05 11:25:55 PM Reply	We've certainly given you a hard start... I'm fine with agreeing to disagree. I well remember that just a few years ago when I was in academia I would have taken great offence at the views that I've been describing, and would have argued against them with great force, if not substance. Hopefully we'll find other discussion topics that generate energy and interest where you'll not feel quite so overwhelmed. Cheers, Ben I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
Post #194,523 by bionerd 2/14/05 9:03:43 AM Reply	Not overwhelmed Pooped "I think animal testing is a terrible idea; they get all nervous and give the wrong answers."
Post #194,562 by folkert 2/14/05 11:59:25 AM Reply	I hope it is all in group! -- [link\|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net\|greg], [link\|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry\|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ *i_wethey* [link\|http://it.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=134485&cid=11233230\|"Microsoft Security" is an even better oxymoron than "Miltary Intelligence"] No matter how much Microsoft supporters whine about how Linux and other operating systems have just as many bugs as their operating systems do, the bottom line is that the serious, gut-wrenching problems happen on Windows, not on Linux, not on Mac OS. -- [link\|http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1622086,00.asp\|source]

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