It's universal

2/9/05 2:45:38 PM

or at all if they get paid in advance, evidently :)

~~~)-Steven----

"I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country.
He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country..."

General George S. Patton

Post #193,823

2/9/05 4:26:57 PM

So it's true

You can get something for nothing! :)

****************
"I think animal testing is a terrible idea; they get all nervous and give the wrong answers."

djmoou85@sbcglobal.net

Post #193,825

by imric

2/9/05 4:35:59 PM

zero-sum-game

because somebody else gets nothing for something...

[link|http://forfree.sytes.net|

]

Imric's Tips for Living

Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.

Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.

Post #193,857

2/9/05 8:40:20 PM

So what you're saying . . .

. . is that all women are - ummm - I think they call themselves "sex workers" now rather than use the "w" word.

Since this comes from a female biologist I guess we can consider it an authoritative statement, and go from there.

[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]

Post #193,919

by CRConrad

2/10/05 3:27:54 AM

2/10/05 4:51:29 AM

As B Russell(?) is reputed to have said: "We have already...

...established what you are; now we're just negotiating the price".

[link|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode|Christian R. Conrad]
(I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.)

Your lies are of Microsoftian Scale and boring to boot. Your 'depression' may be the closest you ever come to recognizing truth: you have no 'inferiority complex', you are inferior - and something inside you recognizes this. - [link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=71575|Ashton Brown]

Edited by CRConrad Feb. 10, 2005, 04:50:39 AM EST

Edited by CRConrad Feb. 10, 2005, 04:51:12 AM EST

Edited by CRConrad Feb. 10, 2005, 04:51:29 AM EST

Expand All History

Post #193,925

2/10/05 3:57:00 AM

Ummm . . . don't think it was Churchill.

[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]

Post #193,943

2/10/05 8:46:34 AM

2/10/05 8:47:56 AM

Keep on guessing (last guess: B. Russell)

If I notice you guessing the person that it is usually attributed to, I'll note that, but you haven't managed to get it yet. I'm curious how many famous people you can go through before getting there. :-P

Cheers,
Ben

I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)

Edited by ben_tilly Feb. 10, 2005, 08:47:56 AM EST

Expand All History

Post #193,946

2/10/05 9:21:55 AM

Oh, come on

Females have the burden of attracting a male, enduring and maintaining pregnancy, delivering the young, protecting the young and raising the young- all to ensure the survival of the species, and for humans, the survival of civiliation.
We may live in a patriarchal society but we all know its the women who keep it all together. And what does the male do? Inseminate the female. Big whoop. Yes, this is vital to ensure the proliferation of the species, but I dont hear too many men complaining about it. So if you ask me, snatching a rock every now and then to protect one's eggs is hardly out of line.

Tell me, when you bring home flowers or candy for your wife, dont you sometimes expect a little action for your kindness? Or if you take a women on a date, pay for dinner, a movie, coffee, whatever, dont you- somewhere in the back of your mind- think that you've invested a lot of money in the woman and deserve a little "reciprocation". Tit for tat. It's not just the women who do it.

****************
"I think animal testing is a terrible idea; they get all nervous and give the wrong answers."

djmoou85@sbcglobal.net

Post #193,950

by admin

2/10/05 9:47:11 AM

Maybe I'm doing something wrong then.

When I use rocks I never seem to get anything other than odd looks and restraining orders.

Regards,

-scott anderson

"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."

Post #193,959

2/10/05 10:06:10 AM

:-)

Post #193,960

by imric

2/10/05 10:06:39 AM

I don't understand, then

how can female penguins file a restraining order?

[link|http://forfree.sytes.net|

]

Imric's Tips for Living

Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.

Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.

Post #193,962

2/10/05 10:16:00 AM

Oh, the males do a little more than that

Ignoring the issue of who has to attract who...

There's that whole issue of providing shelter, dragging home food, fighting (or leading) off preditors, buying the minivan, fighting the wars so it has fuel, and inventing the internet - all in hopes of getting a little nookie now and then.

Without the desire to mate, there would be no civilization. Its all just colossal oneupmanship.

"Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect"   --Mark Twain

"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them."   --Albert Einstein

"This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses."   --George W. Bush

Post #193,976

2/10/05 11:38:08 AM

Okay, so maybe I was being a little facetious, but

"Ignoring the issue of who has to attract who..."
In most of the animal kingdom it's the male who is showier and tries to catch the eye of the ladies. But for humans, it's dead opposite. Look at the comestic industry and breast implants, for example. We dont spend this kind of money to look good for other women, ya know. (At least most of us dont)

"There's that whole issue of providing shelter, dragging home food, fighting (or leading) off preditors, buying the minivan, fighting the wars so it has fuel, and inventing the internet"
Look at all the single mothers out there doing all of the above.
What about the women in the military? We fight and torture prisoners just like the men do.

"Its all just colossal oneupmanship"
Not trying to one-up anybody. Just stating the facts, sir.

****************
"I think animal testing is a terrible idea; they get all nervous and give the wrong answers."

djmoou85@sbcglobal.net

Post #193,981

by drewk

2/10/05 11:48:30 AM

Yes you do

We dont spend this kind of money to look good for other women, ya know.

Any reasonably attractive woman can go out and get impregnated -- or at least go through the motions -- any night she wants to. She doesn't have to look like a model, she just has to be sufficiently friendly.

Or let me put it another way. (Stereo)Typically women use appearance to compete for mates. Men use the ability to provide. But you know what? The most driven businessmen are not doing it for the women. They like to "win", to be better than the other men. I suspect it's the same with women.

===

Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]

Post #193,983

2/10/05 11:53:12 AM

Hmmmm

Maybe so

****************
"I think animal testing is a terrible idea; they get all nervous and give the wrong answers."

djmoou85@sbcglobal.net

Post #194,014

by admin

2/10/05 3:08:57 PM

Re: Hmmmm

The man still has to pursue the woman, for the most part.

As Drew said, women control mating. What she looks like or how she behaves is more or less irrelevant, within reason. Most of the dolling up she does is for herself.

Regards,

-scott anderson

"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."

Post #194,038

2/10/05 6:09:37 PM

Not all for herself

Women have plenty of mating opportunities. True. For a graphical illustration, how many women could be prostitutes if they really wanted to be? Even the unattractive ones generally could - see the concept of a "skag".

However they don't have so many opportunities to mate with desirable men.

They also have even fewer opportunities to get men to settle down.

And even fewer opportunities to get desirable men to settle down.

So for a woman to have the matings that she wants is a competitive situation. And she is competing with other women for it.

Most of the details of womanly competition men are cheerfully oblivious to. Conversely women tend to hold with some distain the details of the hierarchies that men build with each other. However both sexes have a fairly accurate idea how well individuals of the other sex do in that internal competition, and respond accordingly.

Cheers,
Ben

I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)

Post #194,127

2/11/05 9:34:59 AM

You all dont get it

Wrong wrong wrong. We dont spend an hour in the bathroom every morning to impress other women. It's to impress YOU. You men are the prize. We do it to compete with other women for the prize, not to impress other women. You're not oblivious to our efforts. For the most part, you respond to them. If you're at a bar and have to choose between a frump or a women who puts some time and effort into her appearance- who are you going to be drawn to first?????

****************
"I think animal testing is a terrible idea; they get all nervous and give the wrong answers."

djmoou85@sbcglobal.net

Post #194,144

by imric

2/11/05 10:34:30 AM

Madison Avenue

Sees a competitive aspect, at least. Women are more likely have thier attention drawn by a beautiful woman than a handsome man. That's why ads targeting females don't have frumpy women in them.

It's not to attract a man. Men will be attracted anyway. It's to compete with other women.

Personally, I'd think jello wrestling would be a more effective form of competition, but hey, that's just me.

[link|http://forfree.sytes.net|

]

Imric's Tips for Living

Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.

Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.

Post #194,147

2/11/05 10:48:17 AM

Not mud wrestling?

****************
"I think animal testing is a terrible idea; they get all nervous and give the wrong answers."

djmoou85@sbcglobal.net

Post #194,150

by imric

2/11/05 10:52:21 AM

Well, OK

But jello has that lovely transparent quality...

[link|http://forfree.sytes.net|

]

Imric's Tips for Living

Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.

Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.

Post #194,148

2/11/05 10:49:14 AM

You're a...

LEAN...MEAN...FIGHTIN...MACHINE!!!!!

If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition}

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]

Post #194,163

by CRConrad

2/11/05 11:58:37 AM

Yeah; I, too, always identify with Oxberger (Candy).

Post #194,158

2/11/05 11:43:09 AM

Yes and no

I believe women do try hard to impress men, sure; but in a lot of cases, it appears they are trying to compete for the top 1% (financially or socially), not necessarily the normal marrying type.

The point I think Ben was trying to get at was from the male point of view. Most men aren't paying as much attention as women think. Beyond a certain amount of prepping just to look attractive, we don't require women to put that much work into it. In fact too much can intimidate a lot of men. How many guys would feel comfortable actually going up to a supermodel and asking her for a date?

~~~)-Steven----

"I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country.
He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country..."

General George S. Patton

Post #194,212

2/11/05 2:13:04 PM

Bingo.

I saw "The Terminal" about a month ago, and for the first time in my life, I actually found Catherine Zeta-Jones an attractive woman. She's not excessively dolled up like she is in her other films - just an average woman.

And she looks a heck of a lot better to me that way.

"Here at Ortillery Command we have at our disposal hundred megawatt laser beams, mach 20 titanium rods and guided thermonuclear bombs. Some people say we think that we're God. We're not God. We just borrowed his 'SMITE' button for our fire control system."

Post #194,217

2/11/05 2:31:16 PM

That's why...

That's why I've liked Sandra Bullock. She tends to do the normal girl next door look (especially The Net).

~~~)-Steven----

"I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country.
He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country..."

General George S. Patton

Post #194,223

2/11/05 3:21:51 PM

2/11/05 3:24:30 PM

No. You don't get it.

Listen to the chorus of guys. Guys are oblivious. Really.

Oh, guys notice. We tend to be very visual. But we don't notice what women think we notice.

Experiment for you. Remember the last time that you got a hair cut. Remember who made unsolicited comments on it. Did the list include any guys? Likely not, and if there was one then he was probably in a relationship with you and considers it his job to notice and respond appropriately. Did the list include any gals? I'll bet it did!

Repeat said thought experiment with a nice piece of clothing. Most guys can't even tell you what the woman sitting next to them is wearing without turning and looking. Most women remember people by what they are wearing. Yet women expect men to react to what they effectively don't even see.

Guys are oblivious to what women do to enhance their appearances. Seriously oblivious.

In fact we often respond negatively to things that women are unaware of. Take perfume, for instance. I'm still looking for a polite way to say, "Your perfume makes me sick." Every so often I really want to say it to strangers in elevators, because it really is true. I know that they believe that it makes them more attractive. They're dead wrong.

Another example is lipstick. Some men react positively to it, others do not. I do not for the simple reason that it isn't fun to kiss lips with lipstick, chapstick, etc on them. I'm far from alone.

OTOH guys are very visual. If you want to know what the average guy notices, look at ads aimed at men. (Madison Avenue studies this kind of thing very seriously.) Beer ads are a good example. The faces don't have masses of make-up, secondary sexual attributes (primarily t&a) are played to the hilt.

Blunt, but effective.

So the point is quite straightforward. Women spend an hour a day in the bathroom and the net effect is that they impress (or not) other women, and most of the effort is wasted if they're really trying to get men to notice anything. Whatever women may think they are doing, what they are succeeding in doing is impressing other women, not attracting men.

Cheers,
Ben

I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)

Edited by ben_tilly Feb. 11, 2005, 03:24:30 PM EST

Expand All History

Post #194,258

2/11/05 4:52:01 PM

And Madison Avenue desperately wants to keep it that way.

Just how much money do you suppose there is in telling women, "Have narrow sholders and wider hips with thighs that have some substance. Be clean and comb your hair. Having sizeable boobs are a plus but not having them isn't a deal killer in most cases".

I don't smell a whole lot of money there, do you? Very small in comparison to the current market.

[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]

Post #194,265

by drewk

2/11/05 5:32:27 PM

I'm sure it was someone here who pointed this out

And I think it was you, Andrew. The fashion industry is run by gay men. The models they prefer are the ones who look most like the young men they fantasize about. No straight man ever decided he liked the "waif look".

===

Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]

Post #194,272

2/11/05 7:21:36 PM

Yeah, it was probably me . .

. . but I wouldn't say "no straight man", there's all kinds of perverts on the straight side too.

[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]

Post #194,320

by Nightowl

2/12/05 1:21:11 AM

Re: No. You don't get it.

So the point is quite straightforward. Women spend an hour a day in the bathroom and the net effect is that they impress (or not) other women, and most of the effort is wasted if they're really trying to get men to notice anything. Whatever women may think they are doing, what they are succeeding in doing is impressing other women, not attracting men.

Hehehee! The only time I spend an hour in the bathroom is if I'm reading a good book on the throne. ;)

Brenda
Nightowl >8#

"The people of the world having once been deceived, suspect deceit in truth itself." -- Hitopadesa 600?-1100? AD, Sanskrit Fable From Panchatantr

Post #194,323

2/12/05 2:02:29 AM

Good for you!

I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)

Post #193,985

by Nightowl

2/10/05 12:32:11 PM

This convo makes me glad...

that I was not trying to attract anyone, that John just found me. I don't do all that stuff, I could care less about makeup, fancy clothes, hairdos, etc. He liked me for what I was, not what I displayed.

I'm simply not a typical female, I don't strut my stuff. :)

Brenda
Nightowl >8#

"The people of the world having once been deceived, suspect deceit in truth itself." -- Hitopadesa 600?-1100? AD, Sanskrit Fable From Panchatantr

Post #193,986

2/10/05 12:46:54 PM

I must also protest this point.

The cosmetic, fashion and weight loss industries are totally dependent on women trying to one-up each other. Men rarely enter the equasion at all and then only as an accessory. Women dress to compete and then get offended if men even look at them.

One of the many secrets exposed in Sex Tips for Girls is "Men don't really mind celulite". Can you imagine the disasterous effect on entire industries if women started paying attention to men's opinions?

The panty-hose industry would be down for the count in 8 seconds flat. "Only really, really perverted men like pantyhose", and the cosmetic industry would be struggling to come up with lipstick that doesn't taste like soap. You kiss a woman wearing lipstick as a courtecy, not because you really want to.

[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]

Post #194,053

by static

2/10/05 8:01:19 PM

+5, Insightful.

I empathise on the lipstick. I also had a hard realization a few months ago that what the hands like and what the eyes like can be two different things. The eyes need retraining.

Wade.

Is it enough to love
Is it enough to breathe
Somebody rip my heart out
And leave me here to bleed

Is it enough to die
Somebody save my life
I'd rather be Anything but Ordinary
Please

-- "Anything but Ordinary" by Avril Lavigne.

Post #194,002

2/10/05 2:20:13 PM

You should read this article.

[link|http://www.davidbrin.com/neotenyarticle1.html|Neoteny and two-way sexual selection in human evolution]

See if it changes your perspective of the male/female interplay. I know it changed mine.

Post #194,019

2/10/05 3:38:22 PM

Pretty good, but I think he's missing a factor.

Another thing I think women instinctively look for, and which may overrule nurturng, reason and such, is a man with the strength and will to hold enough territory to provide adequate resources (now abstracted as money) and to drive off other strong males who could savage the household. This is where the intense attraction to jerks with money would fit in.

[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]

Post #194,051

by daemon

2/10/05 7:56:35 PM

He mised a point in that article

work in a sober capacity in a bar. Women will compete for a bartender unto blows when they have loving, supportive mates at home. The alcohol lowers their logical thinking ability and raises they emotional persona. They usually compete over a person who is perceived as a "bad" man. This allows insemination of "survivor" genes who is then carried home to be brought up by a generous (and mostly unsuspecting) spouse.
regards,
daemon

I love her dearly, far beyond any creature I've ever known, and I can prove it, for never once in almost seventy years of married life have I taken her by the throat. Mind you, it's been a near thing once or twice.
George Macdonald Frasier
Clearwater highschool marching band [link|http://www.chstornadoband.org/|http://www.chstornadoband.org/]

Post #194,063

2/10/05 8:37:10 PM

Wonder why he didn't mention Desmond Morris.

[link|http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/october/12/newsid_3116000/3116329.stm|The Naked Ape] covered a lot of these issues in 1967. I'm surprised Brin didn't mention it. Wonder why.

An awful lot that's old is new again...

Cheers,
Scott.

Post #194,081

2/10/05 11:36:01 PM

Ask him.

It's possible he never read it - biology isn't exactly his AoK.

Post #194,087

2/10/05 11:50:35 PM

I'm not that interested. Thanks though. :-)

It's been around 25 years since I read TNA. Perhaps it's been superseded by later stuff he cited. I was just surprised that it wasn't at least mentioned as it caused a big splash and was a best seller for a long time. He must have heard of it.

I've not read any of Brin's stuff before (e.g., it's been ages since I curled up with a science fiction novel, and I haven't read TTS either). I've got too much on my plate now to try to talk with him about it. And it really doesn't matter anyway. ;-)

Thanks for the prodding though.

Cheers,
Scott.

Post #194,003

2/10/05 2:30:25 PM

2/10/05 4:37:41 PM

No, not you one upping (upping one?)

I meant that people invent/buy/acquire stuff to gain competitive edge over people who dont have that stuff.

Look, I'm sure it all started with some guy getting the first home built fire going and yelling "Hey baby, you cold? Come on over here and look what I've got!". Most likely the next guy had to skin a woolly mammoth so she'd have something to sit on and it just spiralled out of control from there. You just can't get laid by casting a come hither look from the glow of a campfire while waving around a tasty freshly killed weasel and a pomegranate anymore. Now you've got to pick her up in a Jag and show her your Mega-pad on the lakeshore. You might get by without that stuff, but only in the absence of some guy who does.

Edited by tuberculosis Feb. 10, 2005, 04:37:41 PM EST

Expand All History

Post #194,377

by lincoln

2/12/05 4:33:59 PM

I nominate this for an LRPD (new thread)

Created as new thread #194376 titled [link|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=194376|I nominate this for an LRPD]

lincoln
"Windows XP has so many holes in its security that any reasonable user will conclude it was designed by the same German officer who created the prison compound in "Hogan's Heroes." - Andy Ihnatko, Chicago Sun-Times
[link|mailto:bconnors@ev1.net|contact me]

Post #194,050

by daemon

2/10/05 7:45:59 PM

without the desire to mate there would be dam little bathing

Post #193,968

2/10/05 11:10:49 AM

Apparently . . .

. . I've wasted most of my life expecting different. I was long resistant to the reality that there is a strict "you pay enough, maybe you might get sex" protocol with women. I suppose it just confused them that I didn't make that connection clearly enough.

So, a lot of my life I've been mislead with "unrealistically romantic ideas about relationship" (which a woman recently accused me of). This last bastion against all=pervasive cynicism too must fall then. "Pay your money and hope for sex" is how the lady biologist says it works, and I guess she would know.

[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]

Post #193,970

2/10/05 11:23:57 AM

You missed my point

I didnt say women expect men to "pay your money and hope for sex". I said some MEN HOPE to get sex if they pay their money. That's a guy thing.
As for romance and partnership- I'm all for it.
And why make me the relationship expert? I'm a biologist- not Dr. Phil.

****************
"I think animal testing is a terrible idea; they get all nervous and give the wrong answers."

djmoou85@sbcglobal.net

Post #193,973

2/10/05 11:35:54 AM

Biologist != Dr Phil

And here I thought that was what he was talking about all this time!

And , yes this is a Joke.

No matter how much Microsoft supporters whine about how Linux and other operating systems have just as many bugs as their operating systems do, the bottom line is that the serious, gut-wrenching problems happen on Windows, not on Linux, not on Mac OS. -- [link|http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1622086,00.asp|source]

Post #193,974

2/10/05 11:35:58 AM

Because I'm yanking your chain to see if you bite.

[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]

Post #193,977

2/10/05 11:39:00 AM

2/10/05 11:40:30 AM

I bite :-)

****************
"I think animal testing is a terrible idea; they get all nervous and give the wrong answers."

djmoou85@sbcglobal.net

Edited by bionerd Feb. 10, 2005, 11:40:30 AM EST

Expand All History

Post #194,021

2/10/05 4:27:53 PM

Where? How hard?

I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)

Post #194,130

2/11/05 9:37:25 AM

A lady never bites and tells

****************
"I think animal testing is a terrible idea; they get all nervous and give the wrong answers."

djmoou85@sbcglobal.net

Post #194,149

2/11/05 10:49:52 AM

Monica did.

If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition}

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]

Post #194,151

2/11/05 10:58:39 AM

Monica is not a lady

****************
"I think animal testing is a terrible idea; they get all nervous and give the wrong answers."

djmoou85@sbcglobal.net

Post #193,984

2/10/05 12:20:39 PM

burden of attracting a male?

Most women that I've known seem to take great pleasure in it!

Incidentally anecdotal evidence would have it that if a guy really wants nookie, he's better off being a jerk. A random, but not atypical, example is the episode in Surely you must be joking, Mr. Feynman where the bartender told him that if he wanted to pick a woman up he had to NOT buy her the drink. (The advice worked.)

More seriously, there seem to be two basic male strategies. One strategy is for guys to portray themselves as A-level men - of interest to all women. The stereotypical examples are rock stars and sports figures. This works well for a small number of men. The second strategy is for guys to accept that they are B-level, and portray themselves as good providers. Most women would prefer to be with an A-level guy, but will settle. (However the B-level guy might just find himself cuckolded...)

The romantic ideal for women, of course, is to have an A-level guy who is also a good provider. The problem is that A-level guys have no incentive to do so - being an A-level guy is enough so why put out the effort? Furthermore A-level guys have an incentive not to do it, in a nasty (but fairly effective) piece of reverse psychology being a jerk demonstrates that you're so attractive to women that you don't have to care. (Conversely if you act as if you care, then you're demonstrating yourself to not really be A-level material!) This serves as a signal to women that this really is an A-level guy.

Of course the A-level strategy will work best in a pick-up scene, like a bar. Which is exactly where Mr. Feynman was and is why being a jerk worked out for him.

This is not how I'd like the world to be, but it seems to be how it is. Machievelli wins again. :-(

Cheers,
Ben

I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)

Post #193,988

2/10/05 1:09:20 PM

The 'jerk factor'

Yes, this is absolutely true.

Notice that really nice guys are almost always maried to a woman who feels (sometimes with justification) she is unattractive or has some other flaw that leads her to believe she desn't rate a real flaming jerk, so she settles for less.

Notice that aggressive assholes always have the finest women tending to their every want (and by "finest women" I don't mean "supermodel", I mean the best and brightest). That's because being an aggressive jerk is what's most attractive to women, so jerks can pick and chose. An aggressive asshole with money and a demonstrated propensity to spend it unwisely is the absolutely irresistable attraction and those can have any woman they want and as many as they want.

My youthful idealism was persistent and it took me a long time to learn never to listen to what women say - watch what the do. There's almost no correlation. Women complain endlessly about men, but you'd better display all those characteristics they're complaining about and display them well or you haven't a chance. That's why so many men are like that - it's called "natural selection".

[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]

Post #194,008

2/10/05 2:53:04 PM

Unfair!

You guys are painting an unfair portrayal of women!
I cant speak for the rest of my gender, but all I'm looking for is a nice guy! Not rich, not gorgeous, not a jerk, not famous. Just plain nice. It doesnt mean I'm settling for less. Geez!!
(And when I find him, I'll let you know)

****************
"I think animal testing is a terrible idea; they get all nervous and give the wrong answers."

djmoou85@sbcglobal.net

Post #194,010

2/10/05 3:02:15 PM

Then you are an exception.

I'm one of those "nice guys" - at least according to all the women I've ever known in my life. And trust me, I've known plenty, most of whom dated jerks, then would come cry on my shoulder when the guy they were dating became abusive towards them/cheated on them/left them over some trivial nonsense - and then when they were done crying, they'd go out and find another jerk to play them over.

Usually, while dating these creeps, they'd say something to me along the lines of "I wish my next boyfriend was more like you."

Not that any of them ever were interested in dating me.

I did finally find somebody who was tired of the jerk treadmill... But it took a while.

Post #194,012

by Meerkat

2/10/05 3:05:58 PM

Can't half tell we're primarily a bunch of computer nerds...

Could be worse, we used to have a member who was completely convinced of the 'What are you doing out of the kitchen? And who let you have shoes?' school of treating women.

IMO, anyone who says "ALL women are..." is going to get it wrong.

Two out of three people wonder where the other one is.

Post #194,017

2/10/05 3:33:09 PM

2/10/05 3:33:14 PM

Never mind.

Edited by inthane-chan Feb. 10, 2005, 03:33:14 PM EST

Expand All History

Post #194,018

by ChrisR

2/10/05 3:34:23 PM

Verifiable statement

IMO, anyone who says "ALL women are..." is going to get it wrong.

Scrambling it up a bit, we would get "All men are... wrong" especially when it comes to women (and that could probably be as close to a verifiable absolute as is possible). :-)

Post #194,016

2/10/05 3:26:31 PM

Again, that's what you SAY you want.

The proof, however, is in the pudding. When you wind up with a guy who meets that spec we'll be more than happy to accept what you say (Oooops, I almost said something most unkind).

[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]

Post #194,032

2/10/05 5:34:53 PM

God, you're exhausting!

****************
"I think animal testing is a terrible idea; they get all nervous and give the wrong answers."

djmoou85@sbcglobal.net

Post #194,111

2/11/05 6:20:28 AM

Yes, and it's time to let you rest.

It's becoming clear you don't actually bite even though you say you do, so there's not much sense in poking at you. I wish you the best in finding what you need.

[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]

Post #194,131

2/11/05 9:42:58 AM

Round 2

Hey, you try being provoked by half a dozen people you barely know and see how fast you can come up witty, insightful responses! Cut me some slack.

****************
"I think animal testing is a terrible idea; they get all nervous and give the wrong answers."

djmoou85@sbcglobal.net

Post #194,146

2/11/05 10:44:20 AM

Yes

You've handled yourself well and haven't lost patience under stress or run away. I wasn't complaining that you didn't bite, but it was 3:30am, so perhaps I didn't phrase my post as well as I might have.

[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]

Post #194,157

by drewk

2/11/05 11:42:15 AM

Sorry 'bout that

I wasn't trying to provoke. I guess that's why for years it was taboo to discuss the mating habits of homo sapiens sapiens. When you say, "The female of the species does this for this reason," any nearby females of that species might take exception.

===

Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]

Post #194,023

2/10/05 4:50:03 PM

Oh, they all say that

Joe Jackson's "Is she really going out with him" wasn't a hit because of the catchy melody ya know.

But what do we know, we're pretty much all B-level nice guy computer geeks.

Post #194,028

2/10/05 5:20:06 PM

Reality isn't fair

I'm not portraying a nice picture of either gender. But I'm portraying the most accurate picture that I know. I'm open to contrary evidence.

Here are a couple of questions to ask yourself:

Are there any famous people that you'd sleep with if you got the chance? I'm not asking whether you're trying to land them, but if the opportunity arose to spend time on Brad Pitt's lap or cozied up with Pierce Brosnin, would you turn it down? (If they don't turn your crank, then substitute people who are more to your taste.)
Looking back on your past boyfriends, what is the nice guy/jerk ratio? What reason do you have to believe that your next guy is going to be better than the last few? (Most of us keep on recreating the same relationship over and over again..)

For most single (and far to many non-single) women that I know, the answers are respectively, "of course" and "uh..." As several have noted, women consistently say one thing and do another. Which should we pay attention to?

Cheers,
Ben

I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)

Post #194,141

2/11/05 10:13:48 AM

3rd Degree

Here are a couple of questions to ask yourself:
*How come you're only asking me? I dont see you asking the other guys about their sexual preferences. Is this some kind of initiation? Okay, I'll bite.(happy now, Andrew?)

1. Are there any famous people that you'd sleep with if you got the chance? I'm not asking whether you're trying to land them, but if the opportunity arose to spend time on Brad Pitt's lap or cozied up with Pierce Brosnin, would you turn it down? (If they don't turn your crank, then substitute people who are more to your taste.)

*Who doesnt have a list of famous people they'd cozy up with? Brad Pitt? Too pretty. Pierce Brosnin? Overgroomed. I'm oddly attracted to Anderson Cooper. And Heath Ledger. And Keith Urban. And that kid that plays Harry Potter.

2. Looking back on your past boyfriends, what is the nice guy/jerk ratio? What reason do you have to believe that your next guy is going to be better than the last few? (Most of us keep on recreating the same relationship over and over again..)

*And the reason we are attracted to the same type of person over and over again is because it's what we know and we're comfortable with it. Even though it might suck, it's easier to do this than change. Change is hard.
Nice guy/jerk ratio- overall, mostly nice guys. Engineers, mostly. I married someone I thought was a nice guy, and he was even able to pull this persona off for most of our marriage. But when his true self started leaking out it was time to pack my bags.
I'm older now, wiser, and still want a nice B-level guy. Unfortunately I'm a working single mother who has precious little time to devote to finding Mr. B-level.

For most single (and far to many non-single) women that I know, the answers are respectively, "of course" and "uh..." As several have noted, women consistently say one thing and do another. Which should we pay attention to?

*It appears that most of you are married. You bagged a wife- what are you complaining about?

****************
"I think animal testing is a terrible idea; they get all nervous and give the wrong answers."

djmoou85@sbcglobal.net

Post #194,145

2/11/05 10:37:38 AM

OT: Posting tips.

Our admin has added some nice features that make it easy to quote text from messages that you're responding to.

You can use the [link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=57396|WeeCodes] to easily quote text (and do other HTML goodness, if you check the "Process WeeCodes" item on the New Comment screen), or you can use the "Quote" button down below (though it's a little tricky to get used to).

The "[quote]Text I'm quoting[/quote]" set (withoug the quotation marks) is your friend and a good feature to get to know. It results in:

Text I'm quoting

Ask if you have questions, and experiment in the Test Forum if you're unsure.

HTH.

Cheers,
Scott.

Post #194,175

2/11/05 12:30:16 PM

This was not intended as hazing

Here are a couple of questions to ask yourself:
*How come you're only asking me? I dont see you asking the other guys about their sexual preferences. Is this some kind of initiation? Okay, I'll bite.(happy now, Andrew?)

Two reasons. First of all I don't see them disagreeing with my characterizations of male and female behaviour. Secondly I happen to know a fair amount about most of them. I don't need to ask about Inthane, for instance, I've met him. And his wife Susan.

1. Are there any famous people that you'd sleep with if you got the chance? I'm not asking whether you're trying to land them, but if the opportunity arose to spend time on Brad Pitt's lap or cozied up with Pierce Brosnin, would you turn it down? (If they don't turn your crank, then substitute people who are more to your taste.)

*Who doesnt have a list of famous people they'd cozy up with? Brad Pitt? Too pretty. Pierce Brosnin? Overgroomed. I'm oddly attracted to Anderson Cooper. And Heath Ledger. And Keith Urban. And that kid that plays Harry Potter.

I meant this as food for your thought, not to answer publically.

But since you mention it, isn't it odd that the vast majority of us are likely to wind up in relationships that (at least nominally) are supposed to be exclusive, but most people maintain a list of famous people that they'd go for anyways? Something doesn't quite add up here. As Shaw said, "We've established what you are, madam, now we are just haggling over the price."

Fame in our society is just a normal social dynamic taken to an absurd extreme. The way that people react to fame is how they've always reacted to success and status. If there are so many famous people that you'd sleep with, how many non-famous ones could trigger that reaction also? On what terms?

That is the A-level strategy that I was referring to above. Most guys can't play it. Plenty try. Those who achieve even moderate success leave a lot of broken hearts.

2. Looking back on your past boyfriends, what is the nice guy/jerk ratio? What reason do you have to believe that your next guy is going to be better than the last few? (Most of us keep on recreating the same relationship over and over again..)

*And the reason we are attracted to the same type of person over and over again is because it's what we know and we're comfortable with it. Even though it might suck, it's easier to do this than change. Change is hard.

That, and also our reactions tend to follow a pattern. To get a different relationship you often don't need a different person, you just need to interact differently with the same person. To get the same relationship you don't need the same person (or even a very similar one), you just need to develop the same interpersonal dynamics. But since your half of the interaction is going to be the same, and everyone has some common reactions, it is easy to train someone else to fill in the missing pieces.

Nice guy/jerk ratio- overall, mostly nice guys. Engineers, mostly. I married someone I thought was a nice guy, and he was even able to pull this persona off for most of our marriage. But when his true self started leaking out it was time to pack my bags.

I hope you know that that's unusual. It is also possible that many of the guys that you thought were nice were not necessarily nice, but never felt that they had the opportunity to act in a not nice way.

That applies to everyone, incidentally. There are very few saints in this world, and very few devils. Frequently what divides good from bad is perceived opportunity. (Machievelli thought that "frequently" in this case is "virtually always".) There is certainly evidence that bad behaviour becomes more common as power imbalances become more extreme. For instance this shows up very starkly in abuse statistics - abusive behaviour is strongly correlated with the victim's dependence on the abuser. (I'm not saying that most guys are abusers - far from it - but what holds for extremes of bad behaviour also holds for milder expressions.)

I'm older now, wiser, and still want a nice B-level guy. Unfortunately I'm a working single mother who has precious little time to devote to finding Mr. B-level.

Well, good luck.

For most single (and far to many non-single) women that I know, the answers are respectively, "of course" and "uh..." As several have noted, women consistently say one thing and do another. Which should we pay attention to?

*It appears that most of you are married. You bagged a wife- what are you complaining about?

Most of us are indeed. Andrew is a notable (and vocally cynical) exception. I've personally been married for 15 years and have no plans to .

While some of us are complaining, I'm not. I'm commenting on what the world looks like to me. I like to understand the world.

Cheers,
Ben

I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)

Post #194,221

2/11/05 2:45:01 PM

Yeah, cynical

Like why do I end up with women who just wnat food and sex and run at a hint of "commitment"? That's not the way it's supposed to be, is it? I thought that was the guy's job.

[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]

Post #194,225

2/11/05 3:27:37 PM

That is unusual

Though I have to say that a confirmed bachelor who is also a gourmet cook would tend to attract women who just want food and sex...

Cheers,
Ben

I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)

Post #194,253

2/11/05 4:43:00 PM

2/11/05 5:01:39 PM

It ain' I that . . .

. . . confirmed the bachelorhood - they did. I've been pretty neutral on the subject but never indicated I rejected marriage.

[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]

Edited by Andrew Grygus Feb. 11, 2005, 05:01:39 PM EST

Expand All History

Post #194,285

by daemon

2/11/05 9:50:25 PM

prolly

if they are not already into a commited relationship at the age I am guessing they are, they aint worth a shit, exceptions such as slugbug and bio are noted and rare. If they have been alone for a long time, prolly prefer it that way.
regards,
daemon

Post #194,294

by drewk

2/11/05 10:29:04 PM

And wouldn't they be thinking the same of him?

===

Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]

Post #194,297

by daemon

2/11/05 10:31:54 PM

naw, they can see he has "things"

but figure its too hard to separate him from them.
regards,
daemon

Post #194,352

2/12/05 11:13:55 AM

Re: Yeah, cynical

Umm- you dont wear that helmet all the time, do you? I dont think chicks dig helmets.

****************
"I think animal testing is a terrible idea; they get all nervous and give the wrong answers."

djmoou85@sbcglobal.net

Post #194,355

2/12/05 11:21:49 AM

Yeah, they love stogies though.

AG looks more conventionally civilized [link|http://www.aaxnet.com/images/ajg02a.jpg|here].

:-)

Cheers,
Scott.

Post #194,363

2/12/05 12:11:26 PM

Well, at least Monica does

****************
"I think animal testing is a terrible idea; they get all nervous and give the wrong answers."

djmoou85@sbcglobal.net

Post #194,364

2/12/05 12:19:29 PM

She's a "special case", I think.

Post #194,435

2/13/05 1:03:28 PM

Okay, you're cool now in my book.

Post #194,476

by drewk

2/13/05 8:42:02 PM

Ummm ... odd that's what it takes

===

Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]

Post #194,351

2/12/05 11:11:51 AM

Agree to Disagree

While I still hold my ground, I graciously concede from this debate. Kind of sorry I brought the whole thing up!

Final comments:

1.\tI agree that marketing and cultural expectations play a major role in how we ALL present ourselves. For example, there is a commercial for underarm deodorant that attempts to convince women we need this product because it is important to have well-moisturized underarms. Good luck trying to sell that. But I still refuse to believe that men don\ufffdt respond to our primping and you\ufffdll never convince me otherwise.

2.\tAnd for the record, I rarely wear makeup and spend about 10 minutes primping in front of the mirror. My usual attire is jeans and tennis shoes. My underarms are un-moisturized and I\ufffdm still damn cute. For the most part, I\ufffdm oblivious to what happens on Madison Ave (unless I\ufffdm walking on Madison Ave and am about to get hit by a car)

\ufffdCant we all just get along?\ufffd- Rodney King

****************
"I think animal testing is a terrible idea; they get all nervous and give the wrong answers."

Post #194,354

2/12/05 11:21:49 AM

Apparently not . . . .

. . Rodney King keeps ending up in jail.

[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]

Post #194,356

2/12/05 11:23:09 AM

:-) Er... :-/

Post #194,399

2/13/05 1:30:14 AM

Yes, please, new topic

you start.

Post #194,423

2/13/05 10:09:56 AM

Are You Kidding?!?

I think I started enough already. You go first.

"I think animal testing is a terrible idea; they get all nervous and give the wrong answers."

Post #194,442

by admin

2/13/05 1:36:11 PM

Just to warn you ahead of time...

If you see something at the bottom of one of the forum pages here that looks strangely familiar, and in fact you could absolutely just swear that you wrote that somewhere...

Then you're probably right.

Regards,

-scott anderson

"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."

Post #194,445

2/13/05 1:43:10 PM

LPRDism Spotting!

Post #194,521

2/14/05 8:56:41 AM

What is this LRPD you speak of ?

Seriously- what does it stand for?

"I think animal testing is a terrible idea; they get all nervous and give the wrong answers."

Post #194,525

by hnick

2/14/05 9:13:52 AM

Little Red Plasma Dot literally

There is also a random comment at the bottom of the page which is also referred to as an LRPD. It is taken from posts and books and Monty Python skits and ...

The serious addicts keep refreshing pages to see the messages change. They are sometimes rather apropos of the post thread above. Sometimes just random.

Post #194,536

by admin

2/14/05 9:56:14 AM

Please do not spit too loud, thank you.

Regards,

-scott anderson

"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."

Post #194,542

2/14/05 10:23:27 AM

And we hug around the weasels.

If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition}

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]

Post #194,560

2/14/05 11:58:14 AM

ObLRPD: Finding him was pure luck.

No matter how much Microsoft supporters whine about how Linux and other operating systems have just as many bugs as their operating systems do, the bottom line is that the serious, gut-wrenching problems happen on Windows, not on Linux, not on Mac OS. -- [link|http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1622086,00.asp|source]

Post #194,561

by admin

2/14/05 11:59:10 AM

Just slightly more difficult than choosing your parents.

Regards,

-scott anderson

"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."

Post #194,592

by Meerkat

2/14/05 3:05:08 PM

It's administration policy.

Two out of three people wonder where the other one is.

Post #194,595

2/14/05 3:12:37 PM

Yeah, but they were all dying of the plague anyway...

No matter how much Microsoft supporters whine about how Linux and other operating systems have just as many bugs as their operating systems do, the bottom line is that the serious, gut-wrenching problems happen on Windows, not on Linux, not on Mac OS. -- [link|http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1622086,00.asp|source]

Post #194,594

2/14/05 3:09:50 PM

My parents just came back from a planet where the dominant

life form had no bilateral symmetry, and all I got was this stupid F-Shirt.

No matter how much Microsoft supporters whine about how Linux and other operating systems have just as many bugs as their operating systems do, the bottom line is that the serious, gut-wrenching problems happen on Windows, not on Linux, not on Mac OS. -- [link|http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1622086,00.asp|source]

Post #194,674

by broomberg

2/14/05 8:34:13 PM

No one wins in an LRPD eating contest.

Post #194,676

by admin

2/14/05 8:40:11 PM

OK, you're chuffed. Whatever that means.

Regards,

-scott anderson

"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."

Post #194,677

by broomberg

2/14/05 8:41:44 PM

Hey - That's mine! YAY!

And Peter, you never responded.

Post #194,679

by admin

2/14/05 8:43:09 PM

You got the chainsaw. Now find some meat!

I love this thing...

Regards,

-scott anderson

"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."

Post #194,688

2/14/05 9:15:14 PM

I'm sure I've heard those last 3 lines in an unsavoury movie

me too:)

If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition}

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]

Post #194,756

2/15/05 11:07:31 AM

Splat.

Post #194,760

by pwhysall

2/15/05 11:14:38 AM

What was it about again? (new thread)

Created as new thread #194759 titled [link|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=194759|What was it about again?]

Post #194,686

2/14/05 9:09:42 PM

I'd probably enjoy it, actually.

I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)

Post #194,461

2/13/05 6:52:01 PM

I've started a couple

Post #194,516

by Ashton

2/14/05 6:48:31 AM

Re: Are You Kidding?!?

Nicely done arabesque. :-)

You might find [link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=194512| this one] to clear air of any remote whiff of piling-on..

I think the right-brain / left-brain artifice is as good a start as any, in trying to fathom the perpetual dullardness of males re females; especially in this culture! where the Puritan roots guarantee the ~Worst in rationalizing of patronizing behavior as, er:
The Natural Order (ie The Story *I* Like) cha cha cha

Post #194,524

2/14/05 9:05:44 AM

Nicely done arabesque. :-)

Yeah, I thought so. :-)

"I think animal testing is a terrible idea; they get all nervous and give the wrong answers."

Post #194,412

by jbrabeck

2/13/05 9:20:52 AM

Can we be the judges?

and I’m still damn cute. ;-)

A good friend will come and bail you out of jail ... but, a true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "Damn...that was fun!"

Post #194,419

by daemon

2/13/05 9:37:51 AM

if she posts here

of course she's damn cute. Dont drive em off unescessarily, besides what do you care, chitown is a long way from the twin cities.
regaeds,
daemon

Post #194,421

by jbrabeck

2/13/05 9:47:38 AM

Kewl, posting here

Makes women damn cute.

And men? Extraordinarily handsome and provides 'em with super powers...

Gee, even Marlowe?

[image|/forums/images/warning.png|0|This is sarcasm...]

For evidence read, seems that the men here are "well rounded".... ;-j

And to Bionerd, Welcome. I've enjoy reading your posts. Keep it up, it's great to see someone take on the guys.

A good friend will come and bail you out of jail ... but, a true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "Damn...that was fun!"

Post #194,441

2/13/05 1:35:50 PM

OK, I'm going to back off a little here . . .

. . and admit that a woman might actually want to concentrate on attracting a man. How is that to be done when cosmetics, celulite treatments, fancy hair styles and the fashion industry are all for one-upping other women?

Basics are not to be too scrawney, have good posture, seem pleasant and approachable, and keep your hair as long as she can properly manage it. Forget fancy hair styling, noticeable makeup and perfumes (unless you want to hook a lounge lizard).

The real key though is clothes. Not high fashion or hooker style clothes but clothes you know how to wear and know make you look good - to men. A woman who wears her cloths well can look enticing in anything she selects (because, of course, she selects what she looks good in). For others it may take a little more effort. I guess you learn by ignoring the fashion ads and watching other women.

I remember when I worked for a place that did electronic assembly many long years ago. The assemblers then were a mix of white women (mostly lesbians) and Mexican girls. Let me tell you those Mexicn girls knew how to dress and they dressed to kill, even for work on an assembly line.

[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]

Post #194,473

by drewk

2/13/05 8:33:05 PM

One other thing

Outside of Appalachia, American men seem to have an almost universal disdain for snaggleteeth.

===

Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]

Post #194,493

2/13/05 11:25:55 PM

We've certainly given you a hard start...

I'm fine with agreeing to disagree.

I well remember that just a few years ago when I was in academia I would have taken great offence at the views that I've been describing, and would have argued against them with great force, if not substance.

Hopefully we'll find other discussion topics that generate energy and interest where you'll not feel quite so overwhelmed.

Cheers,
Ben

I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)

Post #194,523

2/14/05 9:03:43 AM

Not overwhelmed

Pooped

"I think animal testing is a terrible idea; they get all nervous and give the wrong answers."

Post #194,562

2/14/05 11:59:25 AM

I hope it is all in group!

No matter how much Microsoft supporters whine about how Linux and other operating systems have just as many bugs as their operating systems do, the bottom line is that the serious, gut-wrenching problems happen on Windows, not on Linux, not on Mac OS. -- [link|http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1622086,00.asp|source]

Post #194,321

by Nightowl

2/12/05 1:42:59 AM

Re: Reality isn't fair

Are there any famous people that you'd sleep with if you got the chance? I'm not asking whether you're trying to land them, but if the opportunity arose to spend time on Brad Pitt's lap or cozied up with Pierce Brosnin, would you turn it down? (If they don't turn your crank, then substitute people who are more to your taste.)

Nah, I don't want to sleep with anyone famous. Now meet them, that's a different story. I'd give anything to meet Harrison Ford, or Mario Lemieux, for example, but kiss them? Sleep with them? Nah. Hug maybe, but that's all. I don't even care to see them naked.

Looking back on your past boyfriends, what is the nice guy/jerk ratio? What reason do you have to believe that your next guy is going to be better than the last few? (Most of us keep on recreating the same relationship over and over again..)

I'm not sure on this one because one guy was a nice guy and became a jerk later... Lesseee... plus I don't know if it counts if they weren't really boyfriends.. I haven't had many. But counting actual boyfriends, (i.e. people I went out with on some sort of regular basis), I had one nice guy, then the abusive guy who acted like a nice guy on the outside then became an abusive jerk, then another nice guy who was rich, but just not my style, and then the jerk ex-fiance. Then I found John, and he is all nice guy, nothing jerky about him.

so lets see, that's 3 nice guys and two jerks? What does that say about me, Ben?

Nightowl >8#

"The people of the world having once been deceived, suspect deceit in truth itself." -- Hitopadesa 600?-1100? AD, Sanskrit Fable From Panchatantr

Post #194,324

2/12/05 2:05:56 AM

It says that you're odd. But we knew that.

I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)

Post #194,101

by pwhysall

2/11/05 2:38:16 AM

I'm not.

Here's the thing, chaps.

If a woman says you're a nice man, and doesn't shag you, then you may have to face up to the fact that you're ugly/boring/smelly/too fat/too thin/have bad hair/prone to discussing SDRAM in the pub/etc.

I've known a lot of women who got into relationships with idiots. Guess what? Only some of them are still in relationships with idiots. And further guess what? They're idiots, too.

Doesn't stop them being my friends, though. If idiocy was an overriding factor in friendship, we'd all be very lonely.

The attempts of some posters in this thread to paint this as a "woman thing" makes me wonder if we haven't opened some internet time portal to 1975.

In the meantime, marry me. I'm all of those things, and I'm nice.[0]

[0] Not a serious offer. Good for one time only. One offer per household. I may not actually be nice, famous, rich, or gorgeous. This is a joke.

Post #194,132

2/11/05 9:45:53 AM

Will be happy to accept your proposal

Providing you're as nice as you say and dont smell bad.

****************
"I think animal testing is a terrible idea; they get all nervous and give the wrong answers."

djmoou85@sbcglobal.net

Post #194,140

2/11/05 10:07:13 AM

Peter's SWMBO probably wouldn't be pleased.

SWMBO = She Who Must Be Obeyed.

:-)

Thanks for sticking around. Don't feel needled - many folks here like challenging conversation.

Cheers,
Scott.

Post #194,216

2/11/05 2:26:41 PM

And you'd have to go to England

which, given that you're in Michigan, I guess would seem kind of homey weather wise.

Seriously, we're only arguing with you because we're eggheads and like to argue. Please feel free to find a new topic to argue about.

As for mostly being married - funny how that happened. Seems that when we got onto this board most of us were single.

Post #194,219

2/11/05 2:32:17 PM

Some of us still are

~~~)-Steven----

"I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country.
He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country..."

General George S. Patton

Post #194,237

by Silverlock

2/11/05 4:04:44 PM

I went the opposite

I was married when I first got with this group and now I'm not. I did notice that I got hit on much more often when I had a wedding ring on*. Of course it probably didn't hurt that I was a manager making a metric buttload of money at the time.

*I was good. Never took up any of the offers till after the wife and I got separated. Now before I was married was a whole different ballgame. There was a time when "sex, drugs and rock and roll" was more than just a saying for me.

-----------------------------------------
"In this world of sin and sorrow there is always something to be thankful for. As for me, I rejoice that I am not a Republican."
-- H. L. Mencken

Post #194,357