Post #193,976
2/10/05 11:38:08 AM
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Okay, so maybe I was being a little facetious, but
"Ignoring the issue of who has to attract who..."
In most of the animal kingdom it's the male who is showier and tries to catch the eye of the ladies. But for humans, it's dead opposite. Look at the comestic industry and breast implants, for example. We dont spend this kind of money to look good for other women, ya know. (At least most of us dont)
"There's that whole issue of providing shelter, dragging home food, fighting (or leading) off preditors, buying the minivan, fighting the wars so it has fuel, and inventing the internet"
Look at all the single mothers out there doing all of the above.
What about the women in the military? We fight and torture prisoners just like the men do.
"Its all just colossal oneupmanship"
Not trying to one-up anybody. Just stating the facts, sir.
****************
"I think animal testing is a terrible idea; they get all nervous and give the wrong answers."
djmoou85@sbcglobal.net
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Post #193,981
2/10/05 11:48:30 AM
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Yes you do
We dont spend this kind of money to look good for other women, ya know. Any reasonably attractive woman can go out and get impregnated -- or at least go through the motions -- any night she wants to. She doesn't have to look like a model, she just has to be sufficiently friendly. Or let me put it another way. (Stereo)Typically women use appearance to compete for mates. Men use the ability to provide. But you know what? The most driven businessmen are not doing it for the women. They like to "win", to be better than the other men. I suspect it's the same with women. ===
Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
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Post #193,983
2/10/05 11:53:12 AM
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Hmmmm
Maybe so
****************
"I think animal testing is a terrible idea; they get all nervous and give the wrong answers."
djmoou85@sbcglobal.net
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Post #194,014
2/10/05 3:08:57 PM
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Re: Hmmmm
The man still has to pursue the woman, for the most part.
As Drew said, women control mating. What she looks like or how she behaves is more or less irrelevant, within reason. Most of the dolling up she does is for herself.
Regards,
-scott anderson
"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
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Post #194,038
2/10/05 6:09:37 PM
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Not all for herself
Women have plenty of mating opportunities. True. For a graphical illustration, how many women could be prostitutes if they really wanted to be? Even the unattractive ones generally could - see the concept of a "skag".
However they don't have so many opportunities to mate with desirable men.
They also have even fewer opportunities to get men to settle down.
And even fewer opportunities to get desirable men to settle down.
So for a woman to have the matings that she wants is a competitive situation. And she is competing with other women for it.
Most of the details of womanly competition men are cheerfully oblivious to. Conversely women tend to hold with some distain the details of the hierarchies that men build with each other. However both sexes have a fairly accurate idea how well individuals of the other sex do in that internal competition, and respond accordingly.
Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
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Post #194,127
2/11/05 9:34:59 AM
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You all dont get it
Wrong wrong wrong. We dont spend an hour in the bathroom every morning to impress other women. It's to impress YOU. You men are the prize. We do it to compete with other women for the prize, not to impress other women. You're not oblivious to our efforts. For the most part, you respond to them. If you're at a bar and have to choose between a frump or a women who puts some time and effort into her appearance- who are you going to be drawn to first?????
****************
"I think animal testing is a terrible idea; they get all nervous and give the wrong answers."
djmoou85@sbcglobal.net
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Post #194,144
2/11/05 10:34:30 AM
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Madison Avenue
Sees a competitive aspect, at least. Women are more likely have thier attention drawn by a beautiful woman than a handsome man. That's why ads targeting females don't have frumpy women in them.
It's not to attract a man. Men will be attracted anyway. It's to compete with other women.
Personally, I'd think jello wrestling would be a more effective form of competition, but hey, that's just me.
[link|http://forfree.sytes.net|
] Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
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Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
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Post #194,147
2/11/05 10:48:17 AM
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Not mud wrestling?
****************
"I think animal testing is a terrible idea; they get all nervous and give the wrong answers."
djmoou85@sbcglobal.net
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Post #194,150
2/11/05 10:52:21 AM
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Well, OK
But jello has that lovely transparent quality...
[link|http://forfree.sytes.net|
] Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
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Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
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Post #194,148
2/11/05 10:49:14 AM
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You're a...
LEAN...MEAN...FIGHTIN...MACHINE!!!!!
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #194,163
2/11/05 11:58:37 AM
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Yeah; I, too, always identify with Oxberger (Candy).
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Post #194,158
2/11/05 11:43:09 AM
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Yes and no
I believe women do try hard to impress men, sure; but in a lot of cases, it appears they are trying to compete for the top 1% (financially or socially), not necessarily the normal marrying type.
The point I think Ben was trying to get at was from the male point of view. Most men aren't paying as much attention as women think. Beyond a certain amount of prepping just to look attractive, we don't require women to put that much work into it. In fact too much can intimidate a lot of men. How many guys would feel comfortable actually going up to a supermodel and asking her for a date?
~~~)-Steven----
"I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country.
He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country..."
General George S. Patton
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Post #194,212
2/11/05 2:13:04 PM
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Bingo.
I saw "The Terminal" about a month ago, and for the first time in my life, I actually found Catherine Zeta-Jones an attractive woman. She's not excessively dolled up like she is in her other films - just an average woman.
And she looks a heck of a lot better to me that way.
"Here at Ortillery Command we have at our disposal hundred megawatt laser beams, mach 20 titanium rods and guided thermonuclear bombs. Some people say we think that we're God. We're not God. We just borrowed his 'SMITE' button for our fire control system."
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Post #194,217
2/11/05 2:31:16 PM
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That's why...
That's why I've liked Sandra Bullock. She tends to do the normal girl next door look (especially The Net).
~~~)-Steven----
"I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country.
He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country..."
General George S. Patton
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Post #194,223
2/11/05 3:21:51 PM
2/11/05 3:24:30 PM
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No. You don't get it.
Listen to the chorus of guys. Guys are oblivious. Really.
Oh, guys notice. We tend to be very visual. But we don't notice what women think we notice.
Experiment for you. Remember the last time that you got a hair cut. Remember who made unsolicited comments on it. Did the list include any guys? Likely not, and if there was one then he was probably in a relationship with you and considers it his job to notice and respond appropriately. Did the list include any gals? I'll bet it did!
Repeat said thought experiment with a nice piece of clothing. Most guys can't even tell you what the woman sitting next to them is wearing without turning and looking. Most women remember people by what they are wearing. Yet women expect men to react to what they effectively don't even see.
Guys are oblivious to what women do to enhance their appearances. Seriously oblivious.
In fact we often respond negatively to things that women are unaware of. Take perfume, for instance. I'm still looking for a polite way to say, "Your perfume makes me sick." Every so often I really want to say it to strangers in elevators, because it really is true. I know that they believe that it makes them more attractive. They're dead wrong.
Another example is lipstick. Some men react positively to it, others do not. I do not for the simple reason that it isn't fun to kiss lips with lipstick, chapstick, etc on them. I'm far from alone.
OTOH guys are very visual. If you want to know what the average guy notices, look at ads aimed at men. (Madison Avenue studies this kind of thing very seriously.) Beer ads are a good example. The faces don't have masses of make-up, secondary sexual attributes (primarily t&a) are played to the hilt.
Blunt, but effective.
So the point is quite straightforward. Women spend an hour a day in the bathroom and the net effect is that they impress (or not) other women, and most of the effort is wasted if they're really trying to get men to notice anything. Whatever women may think they are doing, what they are succeeding in doing is impressing other women, not attracting men.
Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
Edited by ben_tilly
Feb. 11, 2005, 03:24:30 PM EST
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Post #194,258
2/11/05 4:52:01 PM
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And Madison Avenue desperately wants to keep it that way.
Just how much money do you suppose there is in telling women, "Have narrow sholders and wider hips with thighs that have some substance. Be clean and comb your hair. Having sizeable boobs are a plus but not having them isn't a deal killer in most cases".
I don't smell a whole lot of money there, do you? Very small in comparison to the current market.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
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Post #194,265
2/11/05 5:32:27 PM
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I'm sure it was someone here who pointed this out
And I think it was you, Andrew. The fashion industry is run by gay men. The models they prefer are the ones who look most like the young men they fantasize about. No straight man ever decided he liked the "waif look".
===
Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
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Post #194,272
2/11/05 7:21:36 PM
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Yeah, it was probably me . .
. . but I wouldn't say "no straight man", there's all kinds of perverts on the straight side too.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
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Post #194,320
2/12/05 1:21:11 AM
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Re: No. You don't get it.
So the point is quite straightforward. Women spend an hour a day in the bathroom and the net effect is that they impress (or not) other women, and most of the effort is wasted if they're really trying to get men to notice anything. Whatever women may think they are doing, what they are succeeding in doing is impressing other women, not attracting men. Hehehee! The only time I spend an hour in the bathroom is if I'm reading a good book on the throne. ;) Brenda Nightowl >8#
"The people of the world having once been deceived, suspect deceit in truth itself." -- Hitopadesa 600?-1100? AD, Sanskrit Fable From Panchatantr
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Post #194,323
2/12/05 2:02:29 AM
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Good for you!
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
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Post #193,985
2/10/05 12:32:11 PM
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This convo makes me glad...
that I was not trying to attract anyone, that John just found me. I don't do all that stuff, I could care less about makeup, fancy clothes, hairdos, etc. He liked me for what I was, not what I displayed.
I'm simply not a typical female, I don't strut my stuff. :)
Brenda
Nightowl >8#
"The people of the world having once been deceived, suspect deceit in truth itself." -- Hitopadesa 600?-1100? AD, Sanskrit Fable From Panchatantr
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Post #193,986
2/10/05 12:46:54 PM
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I must also protest this point.
The cosmetic, fashion and weight loss industries are totally dependent on women trying to one-up each other. Men rarely enter the equasion at all and then only as an accessory. Women dress to compete and then get offended if men even look at them.
One of the many secrets exposed in Sex Tips for Girls is "Men don't really mind celulite". Can you imagine the disasterous effect on entire industries if women started paying attention to men's opinions?
The panty-hose industry would be down for the count in 8 seconds flat. "Only really, really perverted men like pantyhose", and the cosmetic industry would be struggling to come up with lipstick that doesn't taste like soap. You kiss a woman wearing lipstick as a courtecy, not because you really want to.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
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Post #194,053
2/10/05 8:01:19 PM
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+5, Insightful.
I empathise on the lipstick. I also had a hard realization a few months ago that what the hands like and what the eyes like can be two different things. The eyes need retraining.
Wade.
Is it enough to love
Is it enough to breathe
Somebody rip my heart out
And leave me here to bleed
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Is it enough to die
Somebody save my life
I'd rather be Anything but Ordinary
Please
| -- "Anything but Ordinary" by Avril Lavigne. |
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Post #194,002
2/10/05 2:20:13 PM
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You should read this article.
[link|http://www.davidbrin.com/neotenyarticle1.html|Neoteny and two-way sexual selection in human evolution]
See if it changes your perspective of the male/female interplay. I know it changed mine.
"Here at Ortillery Command we have at our disposal hundred megawatt laser beams, mach 20 titanium rods and guided thermonuclear bombs. Some people say we think that we're God. We're not God. We just borrowed his 'SMITE' button for our fire control system."
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Post #194,019
2/10/05 3:38:22 PM
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Pretty good, but I think he's missing a factor.
Another thing I think women instinctively look for, and which may overrule nurturng, reason and such, is a man with the strength and will to hold enough territory to provide adequate resources (now abstracted as money) and to drive off other strong males who could savage the household. This is where the intense attraction to jerks with money would fit in.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
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Post #194,051
2/10/05 7:56:35 PM
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He mised a point in that article
work in a sober capacity in a bar. Women will compete for a bartender unto blows when they have loving, supportive mates at home. The alcohol lowers their logical thinking ability and raises they emotional persona. They usually compete over a person who is perceived as a "bad" man. This allows insemination of "survivor" genes who is then carried home to be brought up by a generous (and mostly unsuspecting) spouse.
regards,
daemon
I love her dearly, far beyond any creature I've ever known, and I can prove it, for never once in almost seventy years of married life have I taken her by the throat. Mind you, it's been a near thing once or twice.
George Macdonald Frasier
Clearwater highschool marching band [link|http://www.chstornadoband.org/|http://www.chstornadoband.org/]
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Post #194,063
2/10/05 8:37:10 PM
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Wonder why he didn't mention Desmond Morris.
[link|http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/october/12/newsid_3116000/3116329.stm|The Naked Ape] covered a lot of these issues in 1967. I'm surprised Brin didn't mention it. Wonder why.
An awful lot that's old is new again...
Cheers,
Scott.
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Post #194,081
2/10/05 11:36:01 PM
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Ask him.
It's possible he never read it - biology isn't exactly his AoK.
"Here at Ortillery Command we have at our disposal hundred megawatt laser beams, mach 20 titanium rods and guided thermonuclear bombs. Some people say we think that we're God. We're not God. We just borrowed his 'SMITE' button for our fire control system."
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Post #194,087
2/10/05 11:50:35 PM
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I'm not that interested. Thanks though. :-)
It's been around 25 years since I read TNA. Perhaps it's been superseded by later stuff he cited. I was just surprised that it wasn't at least mentioned as it caused a big splash and was a best seller for a long time. He must have heard of it.
I've not read any of Brin's stuff before (e.g., it's been ages since I curled up with a science fiction novel, and I haven't read TTS either). I've got too much on my plate now to try to talk with him about it. And it really doesn't matter anyway. ;-)
Thanks for the prodding though.
Cheers,
Scott.
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Post #194,003
2/10/05 2:30:25 PM
2/10/05 4:37:41 PM
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No, not you one upping (upping one?)
I meant that people invent/buy/acquire stuff to gain competitive edge over people who dont have that stuff.
Look, I'm sure it all started with some guy getting the first home built fire going and yelling "Hey baby, you cold? Come on over here and look what I've got!". Most likely the next guy had to skin a woolly mammoth so she'd have something to sit on and it just spiralled out of control from there. You just can't get laid by casting a come hither look from the glow of a campfire while waving around a tasty freshly killed weasel and a pomegranate anymore. Now you've got to pick her up in a Jag and show her your Mega-pad on the lakeshore. You might get by without that stuff, but only in the absence of some guy who does.
"Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" --Mark Twain
"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." --Albert Einstein
"This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses." --George W. Bush
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Post #194,377
2/12/05 4:33:59 PM
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I nominate this for an LRPD (new thread)
Created as new thread #194376 titled [link|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=194376|I nominate this for an LRPD]
lincoln
"Windows XP has so many holes in its security that any reasonable user will conclude it was designed by the same German officer who created the prison compound in "Hogan's Heroes." - Andy Ihnatko, Chicago Sun-Times
[link|mailto:bconnors@ev1.net|contact me]
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