They weren't going for body count

Post #118,374 by ben_tilly 9/21/03 3:28:56 PM Reply	They weren't going for body count They wanted the visuals of those towers coming down when people were still awake back home. They wanted the first impressions back home to be of America in a panic. It was symbolism that they were aiming for. If they had been going for bodies then they would have hit them after trading started at 9:30. Then all of those stories you heard of people who survived because they happened to be a little late to work wouldn't have happened. Moving people would have been harder because there would have been more. They could have also increased the body count substantially by dive-bombing the towers rather than the horizontal smash. They were aiming for the vision of seeing the towers collapse. But having a burning fireball channeling down the tube would have killed a lot more. And left a lot of gruesomely scarred survivers who only got half-burned. The medical emergency that everyone was preparing for in NYC could have happened. Instead people pretty much only had minor injuries or were dead. And only 6% of the usual capacity of those buildings were dead. Yes. It. Could. Have. Been. Worse. Regards, Ben "good ideas and bad code build communities, the other three combinations do not" - [link\|http://archives.real-time.com/pipermail/cocoon-devel/2000-October/003023.html\|Stefano Mazzocchi]
Post #118,410 by Nightowl 9/22/03 2:00:43 AM Reply	Re: They weren't going for body count Thanks, that was what I was trying to get across. It wasn't about how many they could kill, not really. They were targeting America and it's psyche. They wanted to terrorize us, and they did just that. Nightowl >8# "I learned to be the door, instead of the mat!" "illegitimi nil carborundum" Comment by Nightowl
Post #118,456 by Arkadiy 9/22/03 2:55:41 PM Reply	Dive-bombing is not easy with 737 They did the simplest thing that could work -- One Buffalo Bill And one Biffalo Buff
Post #118,517 by ben_tilly 9/23/03 1:02:10 AM Reply	They did it at the Pentagon But I agree that what they did is simpler. Ben "good ideas and bad code build communities, the other three combinations do not" - [link\|http://archives.real-time.com/pipermail/cocoon-devel/2000-October/003023.html\|Stefano Mazzocchi]
Post #118,520 by Nightowl 9/23/03 1:14:36 AM Reply	Re: They did it at the Pentagon True, but the Pentagon was a lot lower target, and less cloud issue, for example, trying to dive bomb the towers, when the tops of them essentially disappear into the clouds, at times, might have posed an almost impossible task to be able to truly hit the top of the building in a dive-bomb position. Even a smaller plane, (with more turning and maneuvering ability than a jet), would still have faced that difficulty of surmounting how to "see" the target had the clouds been covering it, or the sun been blinding them or any other phenomenon that high-rise buildings face. The probabilty of missing it completely and crashing say, right between them, or along side them, or sideswiping them probably caused the terrorists to rule out that concept completely. Nightowl >8# "I learned to be the door, instead of the mat!" "illegitimi nil carborundum" Comment by Nightowl
Post #118,536 by Arkadiy 9/23/03 9:32:25 AM Reply	If they really dive-bombed Pentagon the entire building would have been destroyed. They essentially crash-landed next to it. Dive-bombing would aim for the center of the ring, filling it with burning fuel. In general, people here ascribe a lot of decision-making capabilities to al Quaeda. I think bin Laden is doing the best he can. He is a fearsome opponent, but his ruthlessness lever is all the way up. He can hurt us badly, but he has no reserve, no capability to escalate at will. Of course he will try to do something even more spectacular next, but I just don't se him timing an action. It's too dangerous, especially now that US is so alert. -- One Buffalo Bill And one Biffalo Buff
Post #118,551 by ben_tilly 9/23/03 10:37:38 AM Reply	Next to it?? The way that I recall it, they landed right on the building. The grass outside was still in good shape. [link\|http://www.geoffmetcalf.com/pentagon/pentagon_20020316.html\|http://www.geoffmetc...gon_20020316.html] But agreed that Bin Laden is doing everything he can. However something as big as what he did on 9/11 can clearly be timed to a moderate extent. They timed the day to be one with symbolism for them. They could have trivially picked flights an hour later. The background research to have known that starting after trading hours would kill more people than starting before is not hard to do. Certainly it is easier than training pilots! When they don't wait the extra hour, you have to wonder why not. Cheers, Ben "good ideas and bad code build communities, the other three combinations do not" - [link\|http://archives.real-time.com/pipermail/cocoon-devel/2000-October/003023.html\|Stefano Mazzocchi]
Post #118,568 by Nightowl 9/23/03 11:08:15 AM Reply	Re: Next to it?? They did land right on the building, but not in the center ring, they landed on one of the outer ring areas, but I believe they came down on such an angle that it would be considered a "dive bomb" of sorts. I agree though, a better "dive bomb" concept would have been the center, however, maybe they thought people could escape quicker if the outer edges weren't burning first. I'm not sure how quickly the fire would spread through the rings in such a fortified building. Nightowl >8# "I learned to be the door, instead of the mat!" "illegitimi nil carborundum" Comment by Nightowl
Post #118,569 by drewk 9/23/03 11:09:50 AM Reply	Check out the link Ben gave The tops of light poles were sheared off on the freeway. The plane could not have been on a very steep approach to have done that. === Implicitly condoning stupidity since 2001.
Post #118,571 by Nightowl 9/23/03 11:19:09 AM Reply	Re: Check out the link Ben gave Interesting... (I apologize that I don't have any of my 9/11 books here right now, or I would pull them out and look at other things. I lent them to church to decorate for the special 9/11 service we had, and don't have them back yet) Well, I think what throws us is the downward angle of the damaged area into the building. Did the plane then come in more level and just collapse it? Maybe they leveled out at the last minute to be sure to have better aim? Hard to aim when dive bombing on a steep dive. Fascinating though, and changes my concept of what I thought happened, for sure. Nightowl >8# "I learned to be the door, instead of the mat!" "illegitimi nil carborundum" Comment by Nightowl
Post #118,574 by Another Scott 9/23/03 11:29:20 AM Reply	Another set of links. [link\|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=31944\|#31944]. Cheers, Scott.
Post #118,579 by Nightowl 9/23/03 11:47:11 AM Reply	Re: Another set of links. Thanks Scott. It seems to indicate that it did indeed come in at an angle, but it doesn't explain if the angle was sideways (i.e. not straight at the side of the building), or downward (i.e. divebombing into the top of the building). I wish I had my books, they have detailed diagrams of the path of the planes.Ah well, thanks though, the links helped! I think the main thing we are indicating here though is that divebombing the towers would have been very very difficult with lots of chance for failure, whereas divebombing the Pentagon would have been easier. Whether or not they actually tried to dive bomb the Pentagon and missed hitting the center ring, or whether or not they hit where they aimed, we'll really never know. Interestingly enough, if body count was the main issue, you would think they would have hit the towers lower, because then less people would have been able to evacuate. Just something I thought about, due to the way the fire prevented people from getting down from the upper floors. Nightowl >8# "I learned to be the door, instead of the mat!" "illegitimi nil carborundum" Comment by Nightowl
Post #118,653 by boxley 9/23/03 10:33:29 PM Reply	more like emulating a torpedo attack from the air "You're just like me streak. You never left the free-fire zone.You think aspirins and meetings and cold showers are going to clean out your head. What you want is God's permission to paint the trees with the bad guys. That wont happen big mon." Clete questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #119,153 by deSitter 9/26/03 10:08:14 PM Reply	Re: They weren't going for body count I mostly agree, but the key factor was getting on planes with mostly empty seats and lots of fuel. Try to get a flight after 7:30 AM with empty seats out of a major Eastern city.. IOW I think they would have been happy to board an empty flight to the West Coast at 12:00 PM if one had existed. Dive bombing the towers would probably have immediately brought the towers down, due to failure of floor trusses over many floors. I don't think causing the towers to fail was even in their plans - it was for them a happy accident of the Towers' unique structure. -drl

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