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New Respectfully disagree.
As much as the WTC symbolizes American success, wealth and attitude, they simply were the easiest targets to hit in the NYC skyline. They also housed a great deal of people working there thus maximizing the casualties short of taking out a nuclear plant or detonating a nuke.


If "death of Americans" was the primary intention why not fly into a packed Yankees game? That'd only take one plane and would kill even more of us.

bcnu,
Mikem

The soul and substance of what customarily ranks as patriotism is moral cowardice and always has been...We have thrown away the most valuable asset we had-- the individual's right to oppose both flag and country when he (just he, by himself) believed them to be in the wrong. We have thrown it away; and with it all that was really respectable about that grotesque and laughable word, Patriotism.

- Mark Twain, "Monarchical and Republican Patriotism"
New Re: Respectfully disagree.
Because there's potentially less people there and the target is harder to hit so close to the ground. They could only attack Yankee stadium when a game is on versus collapsing two buildings anytime. I can only presume they hoped that the buildings would topple instead of going straight down.
lister
New They did hit a low lying building.
The Pentagon. I have no way of knowing absolutely the thought process that lead to picking targets. I hope I never come to think in such ways. But I do think it's reasonably clear that their targets had more to do with symbolism that death tolls. Of course, YMMV.
bcnu,
Mikem

The soul and substance of what customarily ranks as patriotism is moral cowardice and always has been...We have thrown away the most valuable asset we had-- the individual's right to oppose both flag and country when he (just he, by himself) believed them to be in the wrong. We have thrown it away; and with it all that was really respectable about that grotesque and laughable word, Patriotism.

- Mark Twain, "Monarchical and Republican Patriotism"
New Really?
The towers held about 50k people. Evacuation of the second tower didn't start in earnest until it was hit. They probably counted on people assuming the first had to be an accident. Had the towers not held up as long as they did -- ie: had they fallen over when hit -- loss of life would have been much higher.

At a Yankees game, the crowd is dispersed horizontally. You could have taken out maybe a quarter of the stadium with a very precise hit. IMO if you're going for body count a skyscraper is the way to go.
===

Implicitly condoning stupidity since 2001.
New They weren't going for body count
They wanted the visuals of those towers coming down when people were still awake back home. They wanted the first impressions back home to be of America in a panic. It was symbolism that they were aiming for.

If they had been going for bodies then they would have hit them after trading started at 9:30. Then all of those stories you heard of people who survived because they happened to be a little late to work wouldn't have happened. Moving people would have been harder because there would have been more.

They could have also increased the body count substantially by dive-bombing the towers rather than the horizontal smash. They were aiming for the vision of seeing the towers collapse. But having a burning fireball channeling down the tube would have killed a lot more. And left a lot of gruesomely scarred survivers who only got half-burned. The medical emergency that everyone was preparing for in NYC could have happened.

Instead people pretty much only had minor injuries or were dead. And only 6% of the usual capacity of those buildings were dead.

Yes. It. Could. Have. Been. Worse.

Regards,
Ben
"good ideas and bad code build communities, the other three combinations do not"
- [link|http://archives.real-time.com/pipermail/cocoon-devel/2000-October/003023.html|Stefano Mazzocchi]
New Re: They weren't going for body count
Thanks, that was what I was trying to get across. It wasn't about how many they could kill, not really. They were targeting America and it's psyche. They wanted to terrorize us, and they did just that.

Nightowl >8#
"I learned to be the door, instead of the mat!" "illegitimi nil carborundum"

Comment by Nightowl
New Dive-bombing is not easy with 737
They did the simplest thing that could work
--

One Buffalo Bill
And one Biffalo Buff
New They did it at the Pentagon
But I agree that what they did is simpler.

Ben
"good ideas and bad code build communities, the other three combinations do not"
- [link|http://archives.real-time.com/pipermail/cocoon-devel/2000-October/003023.html|Stefano Mazzocchi]
New Re: They did it at the Pentagon
True, but the Pentagon was a lot lower target, and less cloud issue, for example, trying to dive bomb the towers, when the tops of them essentially disappear into the clouds, at times, might have posed an almost impossible task to be able to truly hit the top of the building in a dive-bomb position.

Even a smaller plane, (with more turning and maneuvering ability than a jet), would still have faced that difficulty of surmounting how to "see" the target had the clouds been covering it, or the sun been blinding them or any other phenomenon that high-rise buildings face.

The probabilty of missing it completely and crashing say, right between them, or along side them, or sideswiping them probably caused the terrorists to rule out that concept completely.

Nightowl >8#
"I learned to be the door, instead of the mat!" "illegitimi nil carborundum"

Comment by Nightowl
New If they really dive-bombed Pentagon
the entire building would have been destroyed. They essentially crash-landed next to it. Dive-bombing would aim for the center of the ring, filling it with burning fuel.

In general, people here ascribe a lot of decision-making capabilities to al Quaeda. I think bin Laden is doing the best he can. He is a fearsome opponent, but his ruthlessness lever is all the way up. He can hurt us badly, but he has no reserve, no capability to escalate at will. Of course he will try to do something even more spectacular next, but I just don't se him timing an action. It's too dangerous, especially now that US is so alert.
--

One Buffalo Bill
And one Biffalo Buff
New Next to it??
The way that I recall it, they landed right on the building. The grass outside was still in good shape.

[link|http://www.geoffmetcalf.com/pentagon/pentagon_20020316.html|http://www.geoffmetc...gon_20020316.html]

But agreed that Bin Laden is doing everything he can. However something as big as what he did on 9/11 can clearly be timed to a moderate extent. They timed the day to be one with symbolism for them. They could have trivially picked flights an hour later. The background research to have known that starting after trading hours would kill more people than starting before is not hard to do. Certainly it is easier than training pilots!

When they don't wait the extra hour, you have to wonder why not.

Cheers,
Ben
"good ideas and bad code build communities, the other three combinations do not"
- [link|http://archives.real-time.com/pipermail/cocoon-devel/2000-October/003023.html|Stefano Mazzocchi]
New Re: Next to it??
They did land right on the building, but not in the center ring, they landed on one of the outer ring areas, but I believe they came down on such an angle that it would be considered a "dive bomb" of sorts.

I agree though, a better "dive bomb" concept would have been the center, however, maybe they thought people could escape quicker if the outer edges weren't burning first. I'm not sure how quickly the fire would spread through the rings in such a fortified building.

Nightowl >8#
"I learned to be the door, instead of the mat!" "illegitimi nil carborundum"

Comment by Nightowl
New Check out the link Ben gave
The tops of light poles were sheared off on the freeway. The plane could not have been on a very steep approach to have done that.
===

Implicitly condoning stupidity since 2001.
New Re: Check out the link Ben gave
Interesting...

(I apologize that I don't have any of my 9/11 books here right now, or I would pull them out and look at other things. I lent them to church to decorate for the special 9/11 service we had, and don't have them back yet)

Well, I think what throws us is the downward angle of the damaged area into the building. Did the plane then come in more level and just collapse it? Maybe they leveled out at the last minute to be sure to have better aim? Hard to aim when dive bombing on a steep dive.

Fascinating though, and changes my concept of what I thought happened, for sure.

Nightowl >8#
"I learned to be the door, instead of the mat!" "illegitimi nil carborundum"

Comment by Nightowl
New Another set of links.
[link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=31944|#31944].

Cheers,
Scott.
New Re: Another set of links.
Thanks Scott.

It seems to indicate that it did indeed come in at an angle, but it doesn't explain if the angle was sideways (i.e. not straight at the side of the building), or downward (i.e. divebombing into the top of the building).

I wish I had my books, they have detailed diagrams of the path of the planes.Ah well, thanks though, the links helped!

I think the main thing we are indicating here though is that divebombing the towers would have been very very difficult with lots of chance for failure, whereas divebombing the Pentagon would have been easier. Whether or not they actually tried to dive bomb the Pentagon and missed hitting the center ring, or whether or not they hit where they aimed, we'll really never know.

Interestingly enough, if body count was the main issue, you would think they would have hit the towers lower, because then less people would have been able to evacuate. Just something I thought about, due to the way the fire prevented people from getting down from the upper floors.

Nightowl >8#
"I learned to be the door, instead of the mat!" "illegitimi nil carborundum"

Comment by Nightowl
New more like emulating a torpedo attack from the air
"You're just like me streak. You never left the free-fire zone.You think aspirins and meetings and cold showers are going to clean out your head. What you want is God's permission to paint the trees with the bad guys. That wont happen big mon." Clete
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
New Re: They weren't going for body count
I mostly agree, but the key factor was getting on planes with mostly empty seats and lots of fuel. Try to get a flight after 7:30 AM with empty seats out of a major Eastern city.. IOW I think they would have been happy to board an empty flight to the West Coast at 12:00 PM if one had existed.

Dive bombing the towers would probably have immediately brought the towers down, due to failure of floor trusses over many floors. I don't think causing the towers to fail was even in their plans - it was for them a happy accident of the Towers' unique structure.

-drl
New Symbolism
They were attacking symbols of the three main pillars of the United States' power in the world: The WTC, for wealth, the Pentagon, for the military, and the White House or the Capitol (don't know which one they meant to hit as they piled it in in Penn) for the state.

If they'd wanted to max the death toll they would have flown all four planes into the WTC (or another similar set of buildings) to bring them down faster so as to minimise the people who could escape.

OTOH, they needed to HAVE a death toll, and a reasonably large one at that. However, the tactical goal was two-fold: cause the deaths of enough citizens to cause people to take it seriously, and damage and/or destroy symbols of US wealth, strength, and the state.

They didn't succeed very well in their tactical goals; they destroyed one target, damaged another, and completely missed the third. While they might reasonably have had hopes of killing up to about thirty thousand people, they only killed three thousand of them. However, then one has to consider their (likely) strategic goals.

Terrorism is not about inflicting real damage. For example, the damage on 9/11 is but a pale shadow of the daily damage inflicted on European countries on a daily basis during the Second World War. The number of Russians that died on a daily basis in Stalingrad (for example) far outstrip the deaths in NY on 9/11... and that's just one battle in one country.

Terrorism is about changing behaviour. Fighting democracies is hard, because once a democratic nation decides to do something, they really decide to do it, and do it all the way. That's because everybody in a democracy feels a stake in the outcome; it's not just the elites that are involved in struggle, it's everybody. OTOH, the West in general has been moving away from democracy and towards an authoritarianism of the bureaucracy for quite some time now. This authoritarianism of the bureaucracy is one of the main reasons that people are not able to see substantive differences between the apparatchiks of one party (the Republicrats) and another (the Democans). By undertaking this action, I believe that one of the goals of the perpetrators was to accelerate this. They wanted to sow FUD among the US citizenry, and hoped that it would lead to a destruction of the freedoms they enjoy, as well as the further marginalisation of the lower and under classes from the body politic. Over time, that marginalisation will pay dividends because they will eventually stop seeing the United States as "us" and various other folks as "them", and will start thinking of their fellow poor and ethnic as "us" and the state as "them". At that point, the US will lose a lot of strength because the foundation of that strength (the People) will no longer be one.

This is a goal that takes time to realise, but I have little doubt that the fanatics are thinking in generations. So far, they seem to be succeeding admirably.

This is part of the reason why I find Marlowe so offensive. By his simplistic jingoism he helps to accelerate that process. If you were a practicing muslim in America, and Marlowe's rantings came to be seen by you as the position of "the People", would you be one with the people or separate from it? If you were a small-d democrat in America, and Marlowe's rantings came to be the conventional wisdom, with all that it implies about exclusivity of participation based on ideologically based belief of what constitutes right action (as opposed to ethics based belief in what constitutes right action), would you be one with the people or separate from it?

I said a long time ago that the right way to think about what happened two years ago was as a crime, and to be prosecuted as such. Not as a war, but as a criminal matter. That prosecuting the perpetrators of such a crime might require muscular measures is neither here nor there; considering their location, their followers, and their belief system, muscular action would indeed be a necessary part of their prosecution. But by seeing it as a crime and not as an act of war they would remove one of the props of legitimacy that the criminals can claim; instead of drawing the cloak of "a strike for Islam against the infidel" over themselves, they would be "murderers of thousands". And, instead of bombing the shit out of a bunch of people that had nothing to do with the attack, and turning them into haters of America and the West, the use of force would be directed against those who committed that crime only. Finally, instead of throwing basic Western principles like free speech, security of the person, and due process out the window, we would be carrying out the investigation in the full light of day so that justice would be done (the people involved brought to task) and so that justice would be seen to be done, so as to provide an important example of how a free just society handles a crisis brought about by attack from without to the world.
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton                            jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca]                   [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada               [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
New That may well be the best opinion I have heard.
Very well reasoned and very nicely done.

(Aside: one part in particular has helped me understand something. You write: if
Marlowe's rantings came to be the conventional wisdom, with all that it implies about exclusivity of participation based on ideologically based belief of what constitutes right action (as opposed to ethics based belief in what constitutes right action), would you be one with the people or separate from it?

I put it to you that Marlowe is far closer to "conventional wisdom" in the US than one might hope. For me, this explains much about my recent and intensifying feelings of isolation.
bcnu,
Mikem

The soul and substance of what customarily ranks as patriotism is moral cowardice and always has been...We have thrown away the most valuable asset we had-- the individual's right to oppose both flag and country when he (just he, by himself) believed them to be in the wrong. We have thrown it away; and with it all that was really respectable about that grotesque and laughable word, Patriotism.

- Mark Twain, "Monarchical and Republican Patriotism"
New You make the same mistake
as another poster here (don't remember who) made when we discussed Bali bombing. You assume that bin Laden thinks in terms of electoral politics. "further marginalisation of the lower and under classes from the body politic" and other lofty goals have not even entered his head. The world is divided into Muslims and infidels. The infidels must live in constant fear of Muslims, so that Muslim demands are met immediately when presented. No politics is necessary in the infidel world - infidels are lower anymals, all they need is fear. So, the more horrible is the catastrophee the better. If they could take out Yankee stadium, they would have. If they could blow up a dirty bomb and make NY Metropolitan Area unlivable for 10 generation, the would have. No political conciderations need to apply.
--

One Buffalo Bill
And one Biffalo Buff
New Hmmm - an interesting dissection.
I suppose it could all be just happenstance, that they have succeeded in creating such panic as causes many to willingly surrender to the mindset of so strange a creature as John Ashcroft manifestly is.. and further accident that - the $$-God is in such fear and loathing that, the greatest job loss since [who cares] is upon us. Can they be credited for predicting Shrub's primitive mindset --> alienating most-all friends, as we have seen? Or was that just dumb luck (too)?

But on one level, I see your point. And well may that be a root attitude, you just described. But is that important, as to an appropriate response to the obviously very shrewd (or Very Very Lucky!?) *strategy* employed -- and our quite less ept automatic responses -- which have alienated so large a slice of the planet's billions? already.


Ashton
New The mistake is yours
I'm not talking about electoral politics. I'm talking about a divide and conquer strategy. Considering the bent of the group in power in the US (who better to understand the likely reaction of a bunch of fundamentalists than another fundamentalist), the reaction was pretty predictable. I certainly did, and Laden is many things but a fool he ain't. America and the West is stronger standing together. The Bush doctrine has divided the West against itself (did you hear any objections to America's invasion of Afghanistan? Nope, neither did I; hell, my country participated and has many times more troops there now than the US does). Furthermore, where is the boot landing in the United States? What effect will that have on US unity? Put another way... if it really comes down to a major war of attrition in ten years or so, and there's a huge swath of pissed off Americans who think that "the Man" is a crock of shit because they've been being pissed on by their representatives (cf- forcing a woman to drink her own breast milk getting on an airplane; disappearing people for months to years, cops getting all kinds of new powers to fuck with your life, etc), what motivation are they going to have to contribute to saving the elite's bacon?

You're probably going to point me to the people that say "it's ok, we need to be safe". You know what... most people aren't like the people you see on TV. Most people have a lot less than those people do. Most people are on the outskirts of the "core" US/NA society portrayed on TV.

In a war, where does most of the productive capacity and shooting forces come from? Not from the middle class; there aren't enough of them. It comes from the teeming masses of "dumb irish" in the cities that were being pissed on not too long ago in this very site, from their labour and their bodies. Not from the rich people.

You don't need to think like a political philosopher to figure that out. And, don't forget; bin Laden's from a very wealthy family and had an excellent education in England. He is very used to thinking in exactly the terms I used in my post above, and he's also quite capable of running an organisation made up of uneducated but very capable hill tribe soldiers. In short, he can float all the way from the hard core elite corridors to the grunts on the ground and be effective in dealing with both. This makes him out to be a remarkable person, even if he is an evil one as well.

Your guilty of understimating him. So's Marlowe, and so's the clowns running the show in Washington, using something serious like this as cover to engage in a sideshow in Iraq to settle personal scores with a person and regime who it must be repeated HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH IT.

Irresponsibility and ego gratification on a grand scale is what it looks like to me.
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton                            jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca]                   [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada               [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
New Applause!
bcnu,
Mikem

The soul and substance of what customarily ranks as patriotism is moral cowardice and always has been...We have thrown away the most valuable asset we had-- the individual's right to oppose both flag and country when he (just he, by himself) believed them to be in the wrong. We have thrown it away; and with it all that was really respectable about that grotesque and laughable word, Patriotism.

- Mark Twain, "Monarchical and Republican Patriotism"
New There you go again
"Divide and conquer"

My opinion is that bin Laden and his ilk is not capable of "divide" when it comes to infidels (blacks, governement agents, insert your favorite here). Differences between mmofit and me are moot to him. Differences between Bill Gates and a drunk homeless bum in the park are moot to him. We're all unbelievers, and he'll treat us the same way.

Now, I have no proof of this, apart from the feeling I get from his propaganda (compared to, say, Communist propaganda or Bush propaganda, or Israely propaganda). It seems that he never expressed regret about any death, be it the most opressed illegal immigrant janitor, a native barmaid in Bali or innocent bystanders in Africa. Infidels die because they should be killed, and Muslins die and go to Paradise. No ifs or buts. If he had any intentions to "divide", he would have picked his target and his speaches more carefully. In any case, this is just my impression, so I can't convince you.
--

One Buffalo Bill
And one Biffalo Buff
New Strategically
there is no difference to him; he wants both you and Mike dead.

Tactically, he recognises there are differences between you, and wishes to use them to his best advantage.

bin Laden is not some ill-educated mountain peasant with a rifle and a bomb. He is a well educated intelligent man. He spent years living in the West. I think you are greatly underestimating him.

God knows the US military did when they tried to corner him in Tora Bora.
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton                            jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca]                   [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada               [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
New Oh, and by the way
Iraq did indeed divided the West. But bin Laden did not caused Iraq. Did not even think of it. That's solely Busheie's doing. his wildest dream, bin Laden could not anticipate the Iraqi disater coming out of 9/11. Bush really outdid him there.
--

One Buffalo Bill
And one Biffalo Buff
New Sure he could have
all he had to do was read the PNAC website. After all, it's not like he's a stranger to tech; until the US started using cell phone signals to target him with bombs, al Qaida were fully wired up.

The historical record shows that Ba'ath and al-Qaida are traditional enemies. And yet, in 2002, bin Laden's audio tapes were playing up "hidden connections" between him and Iraq. He knew that Bush's inner coterie wanted an excuse, and did what he could to give it to them.

OTOH, I agree... Bush really outdid himself on that one. It's like he's handing the peoples of the ME to the fundamentalists on a silver platter.
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton                            jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca]                   [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada               [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
New I am between you two on this.
I don't give Osama enough credit for being able to forecast Iraq. Especially in light of the tape released just prior to the War when he said to his minions (words to the effect of) "It's okay to stand and fight with the Socialists (Iraq) when they are fighting the Americans".

I'm sure he was happy about it and I agree that Bush really screwed the pooch with Iraq, but I don't think Osama's predictive abilities are strong enough to forsee how really inane Bush's policies can be. In this regard (Iraq) I think Osama "misunderestimated" Dubya. I think we all did. Even I am impressed with the collosal mess he's been able to create in just three years.
bcnu,
Mikem

The soul and substance of what customarily ranks as patriotism is moral cowardice and always has been...We have thrown away the most valuable asset we had-- the individual's right to oppose both flag and country when he (just he, by himself) believed them to be in the wrong. We have thrown it away; and with it all that was really respectable about that grotesque and laughable word, Patriotism.

- Mark Twain, "Monarchical and Republican Patriotism"
New Projecting?
Perhaps you are an educated person from a good family. Bin Laden may have been educated, but is not very smart. Unless that you believe that he hated his own people for their backwardness and wanted to see them destroyed. He had to know that the US needed another bogey man after the Eastern Bloc fell. Hell, he fought in Afghanistan with our weaponry against the old bogey man. Think about it.

In simple terms, post cold war America is a big dog armed to the teeth with rows and rows of very sharp teeth. For comparative military terms, we'll make the Islamic "world" a jackrabbit. If this "educated" jackrabbit chose to bite the foot of this dog, what did he think would happen? Was he betting the dog wasn't hungry? The dog had no bite? Just what fucking intelligence is in that. If he were so well educated, he would know that Americans have an attention span that coincides with Sweeps week. We wouldn't remember "who" fought this war (in socio-economic terms) any more now than in the Vietnam, Korean, WWII, Civil War, ad nauseum wars. Our national actions are never "wrong" from the Spanish American War, etc... Ask Germans about the Third Reich... This is pure and simply overintellectualizing a non complex issue.

Quite frankly, the folks in Washington - from the CIA to the White House to the Pentagon - are put there to make sure this country survives. Period. Do you think that anyone there really gives a shit what France or Germany thinks? They are not the world - nor "world opinion". There is no "west" anymore either as that implies there is an "east". Who, pray tell is the "east"? They are a political annoyance at present from this mindset. In many regards, they are beaten empiricist that pose no threat, military or intellectual. It is in the US's best interest now to court the former Eastern Bloc and Russia (an oil rich country). To continue to trade with and appease China, etc...

Bush did not screw the pooch because there was no pooch. Iraq is in the US's strategic interest because of it's oil and it's geography. It is a good place to start "cleaning up" the rest of the third world. Bin Laden gave us an excuse. Given his background, he had to know this would be the result. Right? To exhalt Bin Laden as intelligent is laughable, unless you go for the theory that he really hates his own people and wants their way of life destroyed.
Just a few thoughts,

Screamer


But take your time, think a lot,
Why, think of everything you've got.
For you will still be here tomorrow, but your dreams may not.


Y. Islam - Father and Son
New Read the history of guerilla conflicts
it is replete with examples of large, well-armed, wealthy nations being brought to heel by small, low-tech, poor forces.

... and yes, he does hate the current leadership of Saudi Arabia and other Arab countries; he sees them as toads to the American behemoth.

Western Civilization need not imply the existence of an Eastern Civilization; it only needs to imply the existence of other civilizations... like China, SE Asian, Arab, African.

Is Iraq really that good a place? After all, that's what Kennedy thought about Vietnam as a way of dealing with communism in SE Asia.

To denigrate bin Laden as "not intelligent" or dumb is to risk greatly underestimating him. Let's see... he's managed to build a pan-national terrorist organisation, and build one that is able to act. You can't do that if you are an unintelligent person.
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton                            jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca]                   [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada               [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
New Going to give up on this one...
because I do not personally know Bin Laden. My opinion, for whatever its worth, is that he is clever. Intelligent is as intelligent does or conversely, to quote a movie character, "stupid is as stupid does".

My hack analysis of his psyche puts him as a mercenary who's angry at his former boss. When the Soviet Union ceased, he was unemployed as were many other third world nations caught in the ideological struggle. All fifty cent euphemisms aside, the US and NATO really didn't give a shit about these "allies" when they were no longer convenient.

I'll give the best analogy I can think think of. A guy get's laid off and decides he's so pissed he's going to buy a gun. He goes back in to his old job and starts shooting his peers. Never does it seem that the CEO gets it. Why? If the guy really wanted to do any "good", he'd kill the dude that was responsible for his layoff. I don't even pretend to know the answer. I just find it interesting.

Unless you look at Bin Laden as perhaps a "Bluto" like character in Animal House (this calls for a really futile stupid gesture), what type of intelligence was Bin Laden showing other than callous military cunning. If you're impressed by him, you should really be impressed by the cunning the US military showed in taking Afghanistan in less time than it took the Soviets to mount an offensive. Afghanistan being probably the most quoted example in your book of a "wealthy nation being brought to heel".

I seriously digress. I found your posts in this thread thought provoking and excellent in content and basic logic. It just doesn't seem to flesh out with the basic reality, IMO.
Just a few thoughts,

Screamer


But take your time, think a lot,
Why, think of everything you've got.
For you will still be here tomorrow, but your dreams may not.


Y. Islam - Father and Son
New Are you forgetting Mogadishu, Somalia?
Or for that matter (to be non-partisan) [link|http://www.dailypast.com/middle-east/us-marines-beirut.shtml|Beirut, Lebanon] in 1983?

Kill a few Americans, show some gore on TV, and they turn tail and run.

But, apparently bin Laden thinking that attacking the US at home as being worthwhile was a stretch. Still, for $100K in expenses to cause hundreds of billions in damage was hard to resist.
Alex

"Don't let it end like this. Tell them I said something." -- last words of Pancho Villa (1877-1923)
New So then.. it's the PNAC Fundamentalists + Xian-Rightists
(of whatever collective intelligence one is pleased to assign)
VS a Paladin with an aim to be Caliph - Unify Muslims,
whose root-strategy we may only surmise, and
(of whatever collective intelligence one is pleased to assign).

Meanwhile.. through Shrub's very Large (Texas-large) mouth, currently:

Our friends are ex-friends and utterly-predictably vacillating.
*We* are firmly stuck to a Tar-Baby whose entire infrastructure must needs be utterly replaced, as the folks stand about in (Confucian) helpless confusion - with neither water, power, communications .. working worth a shit.

And for the entire-focus of the (now greatly lapsed) "Find the Terrorists" game being upon the Leader(s) -- thus damn little attention paid to the drudgery of nailing All Those loosely-coupled invisible *cells* ..

And our Constitutional Republic a mere facsimile of its former (tarnished and Corp-controlled) state, and with the VICTORY Act awaiting in the wings, next - -

What are the odds?



Ashton


Edit - and courtesy Oklahoma! cf.
Poor Jud is daid;
A candle lights his haid
. . .
..but it's summer and
we're runnin outta $Ice$
Expand Edited by Ashton Sept. 13, 2003, 12:23:36 AM EDT
New Get over yourself, friend...
This has absofuckinglutely nothing to do with Shrub or Clitoris or whatever fucking political bend you want to assign. The boys behind the martyrs were trained by our own CIA. They (the CIA) have been trying to figure out how to "deal with them" since the late 80's. I REPEAT, THIS IS NOT ABOUT BUSH... Myopia seems to be consuming thee lately.

You seem to grasp the macro in so many areas, why do refuse to grasp it here. This is the backwash of the cold war. This mess was created even before Shrub's daddy was in politics. I will take it even one step further and say that I am really fucking offended when I hear Peter go on about America when Great Britain was truly the one responsible for most of the mess.

Whether or not Bush Jr is politically astute or not has nothing, repeat nothing to do with this situation. The CIA was here long before him and will be calling the shots long after he's gone, irregardless of what chowderhead sits in the White House.

Think for a minute about why the Pentagon was a target. Think also what kind of hornets nest your kicking when you attack it. Do you think Bin Laden is an "intelligent" man? Logically? What could be accomplished other than what has happened. Even I predicted it to a tee the day after 9-11 on this forum - we're going to use it as an excuse to clean up the messes we created in the third world starting with Afghanistan and then Iraq, next Iran, next Syria, next North Korea.

I repeat, unless he hates his own kind and wishes to see them destroyed, what intelligent thing was accomplished?

Ashton, I know you are on a roll, so much so that you use shorthand instead of coherent English. But for whatever its worth, I find your S to N ratio quite high recently. I'm assuming you are gearing up for election year? You're a treasure, to be sure, but once again, I'm starting to suspect that your idealism may be clouding your vision. YMMV
Just a few thoughts,

Screamer


But take your time, think a lot,
Why, think of everything you've got.
For you will still be here tomorrow, but your dreams may not.


Y. Islam - Father and Son
New PS
Bite me you panty wasted weak titted sniveling pinko communist fascist French loving turd.

Yeah, that's right. You want a piece of me... You want a piece of me?

I've never had a chance to officially "flame you". We've dropped cannisters in on eachother from time to time, occasionally even smoke bombs. But it was liberating. I even called you a "dumbass" in my initial unedited version before I hit save.

It's late and you know what? I just read my own post to which I am replying and feel somewhat like I'm reading an old Akroyd character on the original SNL, "Ash, you ignorant slut".How intelligent is it for us to be debating how intelligent someone else is? :-0

Keep up the good fight. Gotta go to bed - I'm pretty grumpy.
Just a few thoughts,

Screamer


But take your time, think a lot,
Why, think of everything you've got.
For you will still be here tomorrow, but your dreams may not.


Y. Islam - Father and Son
New Who can resist?___"An Invitation to the Dance" -
that lovely lilt from a bygone era of real musical compositions with actual people-played instruments, none of them transistorized - nor accompanied by SHOUTING (or smashed faux-instruments either, cometothinkofit..)

OK meretricious spawn of gang-bangs by herds of syphilitic dung beetles {leave The Beatles outta this!} Why my Father's insurance policy is so Much Better than -


But Seriously, Dan .. WTF - good practice for when the Shit really hits The Fan.
I shall endeavour to omit as much shorthand as my internal-aMuse can forego.
That'll make it longer. Tough. Manifestos are such good exercise. But dumb.

And No.. I don't surmise {either} that your smart-neurons have been irreversibly deranged, via proximity to one of the world's longest-running Floating Crap Games.. with its own cult of the Virgin and other ephemera.. Really I Don't! (if I said this less obliquely we'd have to move it to Religion.)
..But you may have become self-seduced by a need for comforting What-If-We-Could.. thoughts (?)

Obv it's Hardly! about the mere fecklessness of a Shrub; it's about what lies (entendre inescapable) behind a Shrub. And I too may dabble in that higher Scale: re the end-with-a mere-Whimper of the relatively short-running Cold War -- that Con Game of Leaders Bent on Remaining in Power via the Murdered Language which created the Dead People.
This has absofuckinglutely nothing to do with Shrub or Clitoris or whatever fucking political bend you want to assign. The boys behind the martyrs were trained by our own CIA. They (the CIA) have been trying to figure out how to "deal with them" since the late 80's. I REPEAT, THIS IS NOT ABOUT BUSH... Myopia seems to be consuming thee lately.
NOTHING TO DO with.. Daddy's Boyz / members-All of the dread KGBPNAC !? and its early-on Let's Get Saddam no-matter-What mindset? ..As we move towards that Global hegemony "Which Everyone Wants From US" cha cha cha -->

(..sorry about the cha cha - but, I seem to hear it everywhere. Lately.)

Illustrated to a T by the daily innuendo
{but so far as I've read: no direct actual declarative statement}
to the effect that: Iraq aided and abetted
{surely Must Have helped plan ?!} 9/11.

You'd dismiss all refs to the machinations of this group, on from the Goon Squad sent to disrupt the recounts in Miami .. through today: as mostly IRRELEVANT? Wouldst see the playing-out of the '80s antics whereby our passing out of RPGs (Stingers, actually IIRC) to rub the Russki's noses in a morass -
- and now coming back to bite Our Asses

- is the Prime Map of events! including all Shrub's selection as Mortimer Snerd for his coterie of Edgar Bergens ??
[for the radio-deprived: a famous ventriloquist and his er Dummy; note that Charlie McCarthy was the more famous smarter-Dummy in his performances.]

Sorry But: you overlook all of the lower-scale stuff.. as multiplies exponentially to overtake that simpler theme. The game you suggest is also the game the PNAC planned to Win. That game also required the simple bi-polarization of that artificial 'World' now gone; especially did it demand that the US be seen as ~incorruptible Nemesis. I submit: That Game was called on account of unscheduled Darkness.

Obv. examples as cancel that milieu:
1) Le Monde September 12, 2001, We Are All Americans. More examples unnecessary, I think. Largely through the {Texas-style words put into the} mouth of aforementioned Great Leader: Not 'We' - but
"the US Government, as Instrument of that Coterie, in full control of all its vast array of WMDs":
- within days of those almost Universal messages of GoodWill:

W managed to first, disdain the offers of Help. [Texan speak was instantaneous and predictable - isn't that called 'science' - when you Can Predict?] First W said ~ Thanks. But. We Can Do It Alone. And We Will. The State of the Union message was as bellicose and Unilateral a 'message' - as no one with the IQ of a tick could Miss. And: no one did (miss).

2) and 3) Then, as matters hotted-up for the PNAC scheduled Target #1 - Iraq.

(after "2)" - the obv. auto-retaliation of Afgh. natch -- a mere bagtelle -- as predictable as a John Wayne response to a snarled dare. Equally wobbly place today as is the later invasion. Women back in sacks, etc. As if we 'cared' now or before.) We called it A War, and NOT a Criminal Action - which it WAS ergo: we Needed a State to Hit. {But not Yet.. the Saudi state that provided 100% of the Criminals - run that up your flagpole and see who salutes}

- we again -disdainfully- relegated such offers to {let you help} to relatively few and unappealing chores, sharply and sometimes overtly Insultingly! -- and with no slightest 'involvement' with the decision-making, even Under the table, let alone On it. This-all amidst a barrage of Anti-UN rhetoric right out of My Gramma's ancient issues of Human Events (John Birch Society Bible, for the newcomers). Irrelevant to the present pair of Tar Babies? and the response of the rest of the world? The French-bashing was pure 11 yo schoolyard class. Shameful! We Have No Statesmen! left..

4) Today: would anyone argue that there remains more than a vestige of this GoodWill? anything resembling so large a measure as.. a soup\ufffdon of Trust! in the words or expected Deeds? Next -- of such mouthers of nastiness as Rumsfeld, Perle, Wolfowitz and the lesser bulbs -- Rumsfeld having usurped Presidential Authority (!) to speak disparagingly about (sometimes to) other world Statesmen ??

I just Don't See That Model working, Dan. But for amusement and amazement then,

Here's [link|http://www.thismodernworld.com/| Tom T's] external review of a book about The Soul of Capitalism and his latest cartoon about the folks who would prolly hugely share your view that [link|http://www.thismodernworld.com/pages/new/new_fr.html|It Isn't *OUR* Fault!]
[Can wait til Tues for Working Assets; OR read some ads or pay-up! to read Salon's now]

See, I believe that we are seeing much More than some cold-war dance among folks with only The Radio and local Authority Figures to 'interpret' for 'clarification'. That's *new* - the added communication worldwide: factoids AND spin. Instantly

Finally, and clearly implicit within
. . .
Do you think Bin Laden is an "intelligent" man? Logically? What could be accomplished other than what has happened. Even I predicted it to a tee the day after 9-11 on this forum - we're going to use it as an excuse to clean up the messes we created in the third world starting with Afghanistan and then Iraq, next Iran, next Syria, next North Korea.

I repeat, unless he hates his own kind and wishes to see them destroyed, what intelligent thing was accomplished?
Here lies the Heart of our differing views of the matter and IMhO larger Matter? of the sort, "how it might be that the stage-play of Life demonstrates the State of Being of the actors, singly and en masse" - yeah, stuff like That; words are so flimsy sometimes..

Taking the bold first -
I think you actually Imagine That: for all that has passed since 9/11 re the US's relationship to the other 6 Billion inhabitants and multi-various flag-waving assemblages of All Those People:

We're next gonna just Go Clean Things Up\ufffd \ufffd [!!]
I Think: that's what you Just Said. Right ?? Think About That a tad longer, OK?

But before we dissect the probabilities of That Aim - what egregious fun! {must we?}
I will agree at outset: you have lots of Murican company for this view of God+US = Nemesis of All Evil (as we define All Meanings) via our Righteousness (and Nukes). And when we can't buy much more Toys abroad.. what was that Domino Theory again? Did you fold that one in?

NEVER! forget that Ultimate Saber we rattle so incessantly .. but usually, quietly enough for it to escape the newsfotainment for the True Believers' amusement and the soothing of their Allegiance to all proposals made with a proper throb in the Leadership Voice.. (He's not getting any better at that - but before.. it never had to be particularly Good a throb)

Because THAT Sword: is all we have in The End,
as and when the 'economy' falters further under the multiple burdens of [unrecoverable!] Corporate over-raiding of all Stuff worth Stealing, the understandably wary consuming-sheep portion of the unfathomable $-equations and.. the expectable de facto / or unofficial / boycott of investments in our Debt
(Our Largest Product these days: getting buyers for our notes).
We're spending your kids' kid's stuff now. But.. No New Taxes by Sonny, either.

As Middle-Class becomes a arcane-word in Econ texts of the future and we race towards a Two-Class society with Gated ""Communities"" and.. all the Others Outside:
Well, are we sure we want to debate the Pax Americana thing?

As to the underlined bit -
Right you must be: this Dumb Fuck squandered $100K or so, and all he got for a day's work was:

A pattern of US | World alienation not 1:1000000 might have imagined possible - in virtual milliseconds, as History is writ.

An intensified malaise, bizness floundering and flagellation: panic shedding of mere drone-worker commodities (ever carried in the 'Expense' column of the Econ ledgers, in the CIEIO minds. Only now: they've SHOUTED this view for all to remember.) No prospects as we speak - in the foreseeable, except bogus numbers disassociating JOBS from 'an Up Market' cha. cha. cha.

Thus far {just?} Two Tar Babies par excellance - money, reputation and Competence! -sumps as there are no numerical values to plot. Military running to Over-time in-field. Nobody rushing to install their own cannon-fodder, unless I'm missing a lot of volunteers. Conscription next? How long to train? - unless it's to be that new Thiry Years War.

WORST: the trade of a marginally-functioning Republic with at least democratic pretensions, as could have been reformed - for a sleazy Ashcroftian statue-draping Vision of surveillance 24/7, girded by such notions as:
If you Question our Wisdom - You Are a Terrorist

{which flies in the hearts/minds of a certain sort of dunce - one unAware of Just How we came to steal this land from its inhabitants; and what we Said we meant to do for the Winners.. in atonement for How we did-in the Losers}

ie Well, are we sure we want to debate the Pax Americana thing?
(What sort of 'America' would be producing What sort of 'pax'?)
And When?


Cheers,

I Who Watch
can't Do a fucking thing - Either. Like you.
We have No StatesPersons left. Either assassinated back-when.. or converted in the gene pool to - consumer-grade fodder. Soylent-$$$$
New If I've offended you...
...then my work here is done :-)


Peter
[link|http://www.debian.org|Shill For Hire]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Blog]
New Only once though...
I think I made it clear when it happened though.

:-0

The thing that gets me is that for most of my life I have been branded a liberal and a secular humanist. When stationed in Germany for almost three years, people were constantly asking me why is the US doing this or that... Like I have a fucking clue.

I am a human being first, a nation/race/religion/whateverelse much further down. I don't think of myself as an American. Most people I've met are pretty decent, no matter their nation/race/religion/etc... if you give them half a chance.

Human beings are prone to frailties and weakness however. Power seems to fuck with most carbon based life forms. We live in continually interesting times.

Rambling on here, but I don't want you to think that I am anti British/whatever. due to my pointing out Britain's history. In fact, because of the Beatles and the Who, I felt more in tune with Great Britain than America growing up. I'm totally rambling. No point either.

It's good to communicate in a forum such as this though, if for no other reason to write down and sort out some of the things kicking about in your head.
Just a few thoughts,

Screamer


But take your time, think a lot,
Why, think of everything you've got.
For you will still be here tomorrow, but your dreams may not.


Y. Islam - Father and Son
New Eloquently summarized
I will second your extrapolation of Our marlowe - via My Gramma - having experienced en famille: what the corrosive mindset of a pukka-Jingoist can do {to the possessed-one as well as to those within range-of-spew.. if at all predisposed to this EZ-no-think viral wasting disease.}

Sadly {predictably} the Neoconman Cabal has responded typically of those with short attention span, a large Reptile-brain and a miniscule capacity for patience over longer periods than the next Quarter/ the next Election. Certainly there is no Wisdom in the entire carload - only Ambition ---> towards further consolidation of planetary Power: deemed by these Troglodytes to Be! that Murican Dream.

These see that Dream as Empire, and not at all that Strength as comes from restraint, the wise wielding of inexorable power. These concepts are unknown to those running the asylum just now, judging by their every pronouncement to date.

Thus have we seen Tactics - a Rush into now two invasions via an attitude of Utter Disdain for say, the Good Opinions of Mankind (as mentined in our er founding Documents): Johm Wayne responding viscerally to the New Kid's spittin at him and shoutin, DRAW, SUCKER!!

bin-L et al: by now we may say (I think I might suggest with not a whole lot of contradiction?) has exemplified! Strategy.

Ours is a society immersed in entertainment, distraction, the constant noise of banal pop-songs plugged-into 'earbuds' - and one besotted with the seeking of ever more comfort / ever more consumption of further toys of every-Minute distraction. 13 yos are now completely MTV-driven in their waking hours and in their dreams, {Aspirations!!} - and the level of dumbth overall.. could be verified by a thousand metrics. Could there be a less promising preparation for a planetwide struggle for a more honest division of the Wealth across 6B or so homo-sap psych-retards?

[Shrub just now heard en passant on NPR saying, We Shall Win This War.] {sigh} 11 yo jingles. Incessantly.

Pensive? we are not. Historically informed? we are not. Prideful? Arrogant, even Hubristic?? Sanctimonious to the point of self-caricature? ..many say we are some or all of these. yet.. just after 9/11, Le Monde said, We Are All Americans.. So Much lost by so primitive a mind in a Leader.

I suppose we shall see this devolve into a Force of Nukes VS the ones who are patient, invisible, dispersed into anonymity -- and God-fantasy driven (like so many of Our Own) -- barring a most fortunate and Unexpectable local 'event' as awakens some long-suppressed Realization about suppressed daily humanity (?)

But I don't see much Comprehension going on here. Yet.



Ashton
seems about Shakespeare time, again
Tragedies of course
And soon, Wagner...
New It's a floor polish and a dessert topping!
Clearly bin Laden want to do both - cause maximum casualties and cause maximum damage to symbols of America's political, military and economic strength.

[link|http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/wire/sns-worldtrade-binladen-lat.story|LA Times] from October 2001:

But in writings and interviews over the last five years, Osama bin Laden -- the attack's suspected mastermind -- has laid out political goals that extend well beyond a primal rage at America. Indeed, those who have studied him most carefully agree that bin Laden seems as intent on toppling Arab regimes as weakening the United States -- though he clearly sees the two goals as interconnected.

From driving U.S. troops out of Saudi Arabia to replacing authoritarian Arab governments with fundamentalist Islamic systems, bin Laden's ambition has swelled and shifted over time. And as his aspirations have grown, it has become more difficult for policymakers to imagine any plausible changes in U.S. policy that could cause him to call off the "jihad," or holy war, he declared against America in 1996.

"For years, we thought his principal goal was to get U.S. forces off the Arabian peninsula and then he'd declare victory," said an intelligence specialist. "Now ... the range of his goals is increasingly ambitious. Whether he believes he can achieve all or some, it's hard to know."

At his most revolutionary, bin Laden may dream of erasing the modern map of the Middle East. In both of his fatwas, he has indicated he believes the West has artificially fragmented the Islamic world "into small and little countries." That hints that his ultimate vision is unifying the Arab world under a common political structure -- a modern equivalent of the caliphate that provided an early form of Islamic government after the death of the prophet Muhammad in the seventh century.

As one U.S. government analyst put it: "Al-Qaida's goal, in bin Laden's words, is "to unite all Muslims and establish a government which follows the rule of the caliphs.' ... al-Qaida's goal, therefore, is to overthrow nearly all Muslim governments, which bin Laden views as "corrupt,' to drive Western influence from those countries and eventually to abolish state boundaries."

[...]

Yet his anger goes only so far in explaining his actions, analysts agree. Most believe bin Laden pursues terror in service of an ideology that dreams of reshaping the world map as fundamentally as Hitler or Stalin hoped to more than half a century ago.

Bin Laden has fleetingly talked about the destruction and dissolution of the United States. "We predict a black day for America and the end of the United States as United States, and (it) will be separate states, and will retreat from our land and collect the bodies of its sons back to America, Allah willing," he said in a 1998 interview with ABC.

[...]

For many years, U.S. analysts believed bin Laden's principal aim was to force the withdrawal of American military forces from Saudi Arabia in particular, and the Mideast more broadly. In his 1996 fatwa, bin Laden declared, "There is no more important duty than pushing the American enemy out of the holy land." In this goal, he was no different from his predecessors among the Lebanese Shiite extremists who in 1983 bombed the U.S. Marine compound in Beirut, killing 241.

In interviews with Western reporters through the 1990s, bin Laden has never accepted blame for any specific terrorist act. But in praising those attacks, he suggested the aim was to make the price of remaining in Saudi Arabia unacceptably high to the U.S. government and public. He has made clear he believes that if terrorists can impose enough pain, the United States will retreat.

In a 1997 interview with CNN, bin Laden cited the U.S. military experiences in Vietnam and Lebanon, and particularly the U.S. retreat from Somalia in 1993, as proof of that conviction: "After a little resistance, the American troops left after achieving nothing," he said of Somalia. "They left after claiming that they were the largest power on Earth. They left after some resistance from powerless, poor, unarmed people whose only weapon is the belief in Allah the almighty."

Here, bin Laden's thinking may most closely track the conventional terrorist calculation in which a militarily weaker but more committed force can expel an occupying presence by exposing an unwillingness to accept losses.

But bin Laden's goals now seem to have broadened beyond driving the United States out of Saudi Arabia. "At this point, for us to withdraw our bases from Saudi Arabia, that would not be enough," said Jim Steinberg, deputy national security advisor for former President Clinton.

The prevailing view among U.S. experts is that bin Laden's larger aim is to transform the Arab world itself, starting with Saudi Arabia and perhaps ultimately unifying the region under some common form of an Islamic government. Ending U.S. support for Israel is clearly part of bin Laden's agenda, but it is not the centerpiece, most experts agree.

[...]

In that sense, analysts think bin Laden has targeted the United States largely because he believes it blocks his ultimate objective -- radicalizing the Islamic nations. As President Bush put it in his speech to Congress last month: "They stand against us because we stand in their way."

Bin Laden may also believe targeting the United States advances his goal of transforming the Arab world because he is convinced that his attacks can widen the gulf between the two. In effect, bin Laden inverts Bush's declaration that the nations of the world must decide whether they stand with America or with the terrorists.


I believe this view - that bin Laden wants the US out of the way so he can create a caliphate - is still widely held among people who've studied bin Laden in far more detail than me.

Cheers,
Scott.
     This needs to be taken to Flame Forum -NT - (Arkadiy) - (81)
         Rot in hell, you and your kind. - (Arkadiy) - (63)
             Blow me. - (mmoffitt) - (61)
                 Go blow up the rest of them excesses - (Arkadiy) - (60)
                     Endless applause. - (bepatient)
                     My kind of language? - (mmoffitt) - (57)
                         You insist on continuing ... - (bepatient) - (56)
                             You know, ... - (mmoffitt) - (8)
                                 Oh sure I can... - (bepatient) - (7)
                                     At least the volume is coming down a little. - (mmoffitt) - (6)
                                         None so blind as they can't see. - (bepatient) - (5)
                                             You got myopia? - (mmoffitt) - (4)
                                                 Chuckle. - (bepatient) - (3)
                                                     Heh. You're just pretending to be thick, aren't you? - (mmoffitt) - (2)
                                                         I know... - (bepatient) - (1)
                                                             ICLRPD (new thread) - (Silverlock)
                             Taller in Toronto - (jake123) - (1)
                                 Nothing like that Canadian engineering ;-) -NT - (mmoffitt)
                             Actually speaker of the CN Tower indirectly... - (lister) - (41)
                                 Respectfully disagree. - (mmoffitt) - (40)
                                     Re: Respectfully disagree. - (lister) - (1)
                                         They did hit a low lying building. - (mmoffitt)
                                     Really? - (drewk) - (14)
                                         They weren't going for body count - (ben_tilly) - (13)
                                             Re: They weren't going for body count - (Nightowl)
                                             Dive-bombing is not easy with 737 - (Arkadiy) - (10)
                                                 They did it at the Pentagon - (ben_tilly) - (9)
                                                     Re: They did it at the Pentagon - (Nightowl)
                                                     If they really dive-bombed Pentagon - (Arkadiy) - (7)
                                                         Next to it?? - (ben_tilly) - (6)
                                                             Re: Next to it?? - (Nightowl) - (5)
                                                                 Check out the link Ben gave - (drewk) - (4)
                                                                     Re: Check out the link Ben gave - (Nightowl) - (2)
                                                                         Another set of links. - (Another Scott) - (1)
                                                                             Re: Another set of links. - (Nightowl)
                                                                     more like emulating a torpedo attack from the air -NT - (boxley)
                                             Re: They weren't going for body count - (deSitter)
                                     Symbolism - (jake123) - (22)
                                         That may well be the best opinion I have heard. - (mmoffitt)
                                         You make the same mistake - (Arkadiy) - (18)
                                             Hmmm - an interesting dissection. - (Ashton)
                                             The mistake is yours - (jake123) - (16)
                                                 Applause! -NT - (mmoffitt)
                                                 There you go again - (Arkadiy) - (1)
                                                     Strategically - (jake123)
                                                 Oh, and by the way - (Arkadiy) - (2)
                                                     Sure he could have - (jake123) - (1)
                                                         I am between you two on this. - (mmoffitt)
                                                 Projecting? - (screamer) - (9)
                                                     Read the history of guerilla conflicts - (jake123) - (1)
                                                         Going to give up on this one... - (screamer)
                                                     Are you forgetting Mogadishu, Somalia? - (a6l6e6x)
                                                     So then.. it's the PNAC Fundamentalists + Xian-Rightists - (Ashton) - (5)
                                                         Get over yourself, friend... - (screamer) - (4)
                                                             PS - (screamer) - (1)
                                                                 Who can resist?___"An Invitation to the Dance" - - (Ashton)
                                                             If I've offended you... - (pwhysall) - (1)
                                                                 Only once though... - (screamer)
                                         Eloquently summarized - (Ashton)
                                         It's a floor polish and a dessert topping! - (Another Scott)
                             Sorry Bill, Mike has a point - (ben_tilly) - (2)
                                 Oh You Kid___:-\ufffd_____Love. It. -NT - (Ashton)
                                 ObPlug - (deSitter)
                     Tangential flame (new thread) - (drewk)
             kudos -NT - (deSitter)
         No grey areas (or matter) to see here...move along -NT - (FuManChu) - (2)
             Unless, of course, - (bepatient) - (1)
                 Fuck you too. -NT - (mmoffitt)
         It is possible to lament the deaths of *ALL* senseless - (Ashton) - (13)
             No. - (bepatient) - (11)
                 Fair point - sorta supposing.. - (Ashton) - (5)
                     Oh it is certain... - (bepatient) - (4)
                         You don't really know - you want to Believe - (Ashton) - (1)
                             Simplistic? - (bepatient)
                         Re: Oh it is certain... - (Nightowl) - (1)
                             Interesting comparison, Owl - (Ashton)
                 No. - (Nightowl)
                 Talking about Mecca - (Arkadiy) - (2)
                     Arkadiy___you be BAAD :-\ufffd -NT - (Ashton)
                     Re: pretty much justified from Mike's point of view... - (mmoffitt)
                 Hmm idea - (deSitter)
             re: bad moffitt. - (mmoffitt)

Doh! Wrong button, Scott!
305 ms