IWETHEY v. 0.3.0 | TODO
1,095 registered users | 0 active users | 0 LpH | Statistics
Login | Create New User
IWETHEY Banner

Welcome to IWETHEY!

New How much is this a semantic argument?
While government intervention does indeed affect the market...by economic definition it is NOT a "market" force.

Someone (Ashton?) recently brought up the concept that professions are just the way to keep non-professionals from playing your game through the use of technical jargon. I'm not an economist, but a layperson ... one who pays attention.

It seems there is some disagreement even from the people with formal training in the field as to whether government intervention should be classified as a "market force." To the extent that anything that affects the market is a market force, it is. To the extent that the "idealized market" only consists of supply, demand and price, it isn't. The "truth" must lie somewhere in between.

My understanding, as I said in my other post, is the simple Supply/Demand graph, and that everything else is just inputs into determining these curves. The simple chart, by itself, is not predictive or useful. But even at this level of understanding, I see government intervention -- in the form of patents, anti-trust regulation, price fixing, nationalized industry, etc. -- as fundamentally different from buyer/seller inputs.

In this sense, supply is the idealized end-point of all inputs involving the seller, and demand is the end-point of all inputs involving the buyer. IMO government input is still orthoganal to these forces. I suspect that Addison's viewpoint is farily close to this. FWIW I believe that's the "proper" way to view government input since "the government" is theoretically a representative of "the people," which should include the buyers and the sellers.


Slightly OT: A gas station franchise owner in Alabama (he only has one station) has sued OPEC under anti-trust legislation for price fixing. At the first hearing, OPEC didn't appear and the judge entered summary judgement on behalf of the plaintiff. Another judge has set aside the verdict, and a second round is under way with OPEC taking the matter somewhat more seriously. The US Attorney isn't weighing in, claiming they don't have a mechanism to pursue the case. OPEC's position is that the plaintiff has no standing to pursue a multinational, due to sovreign immunity. They are explicitly holding themselves up as equivalent to the U.N., as deserving of immunity to local prosecution.
This is my sig. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
New Definition...
I can understand why the confusion exists. Public finance (government intervention in the economy) is a couple of full time courses in economics.

The basic principle is that "market" forces are those inherent in the interaction between the "suppliers and demanders"...where government intervention is "enforced" on the market from the outside. Both have influence on the derived outcome of the market...so the net effect is pretty much the same. So...

...I understand both points of view...but to really be true to my school...have to split laws and other government issues away from the naturally occuring "market".
You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! Laurie Anderson

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
     Bill Gates's way, or no way - (addison) - (105)
         A lesson - - (imric) - (104)
             At last I see, the only viable solution next: - (Ashton)
             Wrong lesson. - (addison) - (102)
                 This faith may not be entirely misplaced but.. - (Ashton)
                 And the Thousand Year Reich would have corrected itself . . - (Andrew Grygus) - (7)
                     Touch\ufffd____cackle___cackle_____Market Forces for Dummies\ufffd - (Ashton)
                     Markets, Andrew, not Governments. - (addison) - (5)
                         False Godwin. - (inthane-chan) - (1)
                             False False godwin. - (addison)
                         I fail to see the difference. - (Andrew Grygus) - (2)
                             The one sentence version - (Andrew Grygus)
                             I agree, its a failing. :) - (addison)
                 I disagree. - (Another Scott) - (15)
                     Re: I disagree. - (addison) - (14)
                         The infrastructure would still be there . . . - (Andrew Grygus) - (4)
                             That's a "presume" not a "simply". - (addison) - (3)
                                 What's Microsoft's ratio of "plants, trucks, etc"... - (CRConrad) - (1)
                                     Erm. I think you got mixed up. - (addison)
                                 Counterexample. - (a6l6e6x)
                         SOAP - (Decco Dave) - (8)
                             Needs more washing - (addison) - (3)
                                 Re: Needs more washing - (Decco Dave) - (2)
                                     Needs a LOT more washing. - (addison) - (1)
                                         Interoperation? - (Decco Dave)
                             Re: SOAP - MS 'invented' SOAP ? - (dmarker2) - (1)
                                 Pleasing MS - (Decco Dave)
                             Microsoft did not invent SOAP. - (Andrew Grygus) - (1)
                                 Dave Winer. - (static)
                 Antitrust law IS a 'market correction' -NT - (imric) - (76)
                     No, its an artificial outside influence, like ceiling/floors -NT - (addison) - (43)
                         Wrong. - (imric) - (42)
                             If you insist on perverting the language, fine. - (addison) - (41)
                                 noting previous antitrust vs. Microsoft - (wharris2) - (1)
                                     Absolute faith in a simplistic concept, 'free market' - (Ashton)
                                 So hostile... - (imric) - (38)
                                     Because its a "concept" that disallows agreement. - (addison) - (37)
                                         Now we know - (Silverlock) - (4)
                                             Re: Now we know - (addison) - (3)
                                                 Just going by history - (Silverlock) - (2)
                                                     I suggest you repeat History, you've forgotten it. - (addison) - (1)
                                                         Sorry dude, you just rub me the wrong way - (Silverlock)
                                         Sure. Whatever. - (imric) - (3)
                                             Re: Sure. Whatever. - (addison) - (2)
                                                 ? - (imric) - (1)
                                                     You've gotten confused. - (addison)
                                         Shoplifting is a market force . . - (Andrew Grygus) - (2)
                                             WOT - (jbrabeck)
                                             Not really. - (addison)
                                         Huh??? - (CRConrad) - (4)
                                             Context, CRC, context. - (addison) - (3)
                                                 What, you think BeeP is the only economist in here??? - (CRConrad) - (2)
                                                     No idea how many there are in here. - (addison)
                                                     Econometrics...cool - (bepatient)
                                         Good point... - (hnick) - (17)
                                             Two approaches to "the market" - (Andrew Grygus) - (16)
                                                 Re: Two approaches to "the market" - (addison) - (11)
                                                     BTW: - (addison) - (10)
                                                         Which is why you adhere . . . - (Andrew Grygus) - (9)
                                                             Which is why I asked... - (addison) - (8)
                                                                 How "Super Buys" work . . - (Andrew Grygus) - (7)
                                                                     Hey! I think I see a 'graph' in there________:-\ufffd - (Ashton) - (1)
                                                                         Adventures in marketing #48734655j - (Andrew Grygus)
                                                                     Or, for the 'engineering model' - (Ashton) - (1)
                                                                         No problem - it's "Faith Based" -NT - (Andrew Grygus)
                                                                     Missed item - (wharris2) - (2)
                                                                         dollar stores also - (boxley)
                                                                         No, I got that . . . - (Andrew Grygus)
                                                 Boys boys boys.... - (bepatient) - (3)
                                                     Now don't spoil it, BP - (Ashton)
                                                     How much is this a semantic argument? - (drewk) - (1)
                                                         Definition... - (bepatient)
                                         hate to let a perfectly degenerating thread go to waste. - (boxley) - (1)
                                             Ah.. but the *Biggest* 'marketing force' has to be - (Ashton)
                     I think there is a definition issue here - (ben_tilly) - (31)
                         Exactly. Thanks. - (addison) - (30)
                             Fine! - (imric) - (7)
                                 Market theory assumes idealized conditions. - (drewk) - (2)
                                     Oh, shut the (*#@$ up. - (addison) - (1)
                                         *chuckle* -NT - (imric)
                                 Re: Fine! - (addison) - (3)
                                     Thanks for an illuminating thread, all. - (Ashton)
                                     Aieee! - (imric)
                                     In support of your position - (boxley)
                             Where do you get this stuff from??? - (CRConrad) - (21)
                                 Many years of econ classes. - (addison) - (17)
                                     How many? And of *what* -- Econ 101, over and over again...? - (CRConrad) - (6)
                                         3. - (addison)
                                         Apologies to Mr. Smith, for having blamed him for - (Ashton)
                                         Natural monopoly - (bepatient) - (3)
                                             yeah right Auburn :-) - (boxley)
                                             yeah right Auburn :-) - (boxley) - (1)
                                                 Just had to give the credit.... - (bepatient)
                                     Not just time but method - (mhuber) - (9)
                                         Yep...sometimes what is substituted... - (bepatient) - (8)
                                             How so? - (Silverlock) - (7)
                                                 Issues... - (bepatient) - (6)
                                                     Good! the nitty-gritty.. finally. - (Ashton)
                                                     I figured Billy needs a personal punishment. - (Andrew Grygus) - (3)
                                                         Well... - (bepatient)
                                                         Then why didn't you describe one? :-) - (static) - (1)
                                                             Nope. Then he'd go into politics directly, 'stead of buying' -NT - (Ashton)
                                                     Re: Issues... - (addison)
                                 Oh it will... - (bepatient) - (1)
                                     Well... we are still waiting on that last supposition - (Ashton)
                                 AT&T - (wharris2)

Uno? My brain hurts. And I'm out of milk, so the coffee's not a happening thing. Pout.
147 ms