Post #7,449
9/1/01 11:28:08 AM
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SOAP
" (And why Microsoft is so fearful of web services and Java, anything that further makes that a fluid transition). "
Rather than being fearful of Web services MS is embracing the concept using technologies like SOAP and XML. Keep in mind that MS created SOAP and that it is now being adopted by other vendors including MS competitors. SOAP allows services running on other platforms to be consumed by MS based applications and vice versa over the Net.
MS dumped Java and created C# because they could not co-opt the language. Sun reserved that right to themselves. MS has opened their application language environment in .NET by creating a common intermediate language and execution facility.
Make no mistake, MS would not be headed in this direction if they didn't think they could dominate the market and make a buck doing it.
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Post #7,452
9/1/01 11:56:40 AM
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Needs more washing
Rather than being fearful of Web services MS is embracing the concept using technologies like SOAP and XML.
Microsoft is terrified of Web Services. That's why they're trying to create MS-only web services.
MS dumped Java and created C# because they could not co-opt the language.
Co-opt is for *what*?
Java allows you to swap the backend... Microsoft would have to compete with everybody else.
Like I said. That's what scares 'em.
Make no mistake, MS would not be headed in this direction if they didn't think they could dominate the market and make a buck doing it.
Yes, and they're trying to force lock-in.
They certainly want to make a buck - but more importantly, they don't want to have to compete with other vendors on performance.
Addison
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Post #7,607
9/3/01 11:16:10 PM
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Re: Needs more washing
"Microsoft is terrified of Web Services."
That's why they are marketing Web services so heavily? They are scared of it so they market it?
Afraid I can't see the logic in that position.
No doubt in the MS ideal, Web services are all MS-only. But, they certainly haven't moved in that direction. On the contrary they have made a big push to build SOAP and XML into their products.
Re: Java, MS wanted to change Java to create their own unique, version yet still call it Java. Sun said no way, took them to court and won. Sun wants no competition from other vendors for the Java franchise.
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Post #7,613
9/4/01 12:53:45 AM
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Needs a LOT more washing.
That's why they are marketing Web services so heavily? They are scared of it so they market it?
Their version(s). Yes. The interoperatability is still in question, to say the least.
But, they certainly haven't moved in that direction. On the contrary they have made a big push to build SOAP and XML into their products.
On the contrary? Ok, so can you show me the Microsoft documentation for non-microsoft interoperation?
I don't know it doesn't exist, but my limited experience would indicate that you're repeating their PR.
Re: Java, MS wanted to change Java to create their own unique, version yet still call it Java. Sun said no way, took them to court and won. Sun wants no competition from other vendors for the Java franchise.
I hope you're charging by the hour for that. That's absoutely ludicrous - and why I don't believe you on the above.
You might note that HP is supposedly (I don't know the status) "clean-rooming" Java. IBM puts out their own JRE and JDKs.
Microsoft wanted to subvert Java so that if you used tools for Windows, it would only work on Windows.
Sun wants no competition from other vendors for the Java franchise.
And how much competition does Microsoft brook for the Windows franchise?
Addison
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Post #7,640
9/4/01 12:28:29 PM
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Interoperation?
If you define interoperation as something like the capability to service non-Windows OS calls on a Windows platform, then you are correct, MS has no interoperation strategy. But, what is the business justification for creating this capability when SOAP & XML allow cross platform provision and consumption of services?
As has been pointed out elsewhere, SOAP is a generic interface that allows processes to be invoked irrespective of the providers implementation technology. In much the same way, XML allows data to be transferred between systems with dispirit technologies.
"IBM puts out their own JRE and JDKs."
IBM's Java is licensed from whom?
"Sun wants no competition from other vendors for the Java franchise.
And how much competition does Microsoft brook for the Windows franchise?"
None, which is exactly my point. IT vendors don't congregate so they can sing the Barney theme song. They all want you to use their technology exclusively.
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Post #7,453
9/1/01 12:06:52 PM
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Re: SOAP - MS 'invented' SOAP ?
Actually SOAP is a very very simple envelope protocol that the other companies agreed to go with just to please MS and encourage them to stay with the standards. MS will tell us that SOAP is a great invention - which is of course piffle, SOAP is so simple that they even called it the Simple Object Access Protocol.
But as you relatedly imply MS are attempting to hijack Web Services - firstly by hijacking XML from Sun (I have read press articles that blatantly implied that MS invented XML).
MS saw XML and XML objects as the only next generation technology that they could use to try & deflate Java. MS have published papers that argue that XML objects passed with SOAP, actually negate Java EJBs. The argument is that Web Services is going to become the new middleware and that the concept of run timbinding & SOAP calls can eventually displace Corba, EJBs, etc: (some MS wags even include JAVA).
Why MS is so into Web Services is that it doesn't exist & is just a promise at the moment - sure there are parts of the technology in IBM's WebSphere 4.0 & several other servers incl MS BizTalk, but it is all futures & not many people (if any) run mission critical apps based on Web Services as defined by UDDI, WSDL & SOAP.
Because it is future, MS can rave about it and position them selves as champions of it but don't have to deliver on it.
And this of course is MS at their best :-)
Cheers
Doug
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Post #7,609
9/3/01 11:29:09 PM
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Pleasing MS
"Actually SOAP is a very very simple envelope protocol that the other companies agreed to go with just to please MS and encourage them to stay with the standards. "
No argument that SOAP lives up to its name by being simple. Simplicity is essential for something of this nature. Otherwise you get locked into one vendor or another's platform.
I got a chuckle out of your assertion that other companies didn't want to hurt MS's feelings. IBM and the other MS competitors see an opportunity for their customers to use services running on MS platforms at no additional cost to themselves. They are hoping that this increased accessability will provide them with a competitive edge.
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Post #7,456
9/1/01 1:00:45 PM
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Microsoft did not invent SOAP.
I have been informed that SOAP was actually invented by David Winder of UserLand Software, who is reportedly a bit pissed at Microsoft for approprating his creation without acknowledging his contribution.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
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Post #7,538
9/3/01 12:27:38 AM
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Dave Winer.
He's been busy trying to zag when other companies - like Microsoft - zig. I'm not surprised he got burnt on this one. In his current DaveNet piece, [link|http://davenet.userland.com/2001/08/31/microsoftsScriptingStrategy|Microsoft's Scripting Strategy], he's warning about another way how Microsoft are going to try to displace everyone else.
Wade.
"All around me are nothing but fakes
Come with me on the biggest fake of all!"
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