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New Fine!
*smile*
That's not to say that antitrust/anti-monopoly legistlation doesn't have an effect - but its not one that's a "market force".

Ok. Fine... Then please define what a 'market force' is - and what it is not. I have never claimed to be an economist.

...Silly me. Since laws are determined by the consumers and producers in the market (in democratically influenced societies, anyway), I had the misconception that the market influences laws, which then in turn, influence the market. So, to me, I thought that since antitrust legislation was a 'correcting' influence on said market (legislation produced, as it were, by marketplace conditions), it was therefore a 'market force'. I am puzzled as to how effects produced by the marketplace, influenced by the marketplace, and that in turn influence the marketplace, are not market forces. Please elucidate.

Left to its own devices, the markets will correct BY THEMSELVES for monopoly - in some manner of time.


That seems to be a matter of (religious?) faith to me... Can you PROVE this? Mathematically, that is.

Imric's Tips for Living
  • Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
  • Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
  • Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
New Market theory assumes idealized conditions.
It's like physics in that way. "Assume a rod of length one meter with zero thickness and mass of one gram." Well, it can't exist, but we can do the math on it anyway.

In the same way, and idealized marketplace is one where the only forces are supply and demand. They meet at some point to determine price, the only output. Second order effects include the change in supply due to people buying and selling. Production and consumption can be added in, as can depreciation and advertising effectiveness. But these are all only the drivers of supply and demand.

In reality, players try to influence one or more of these inputs. Copyright and patent legislation can create artificial scarcity. Price caps and minimums can put floors and ceilings on prices. Contractual obligations can affect price, but can also disguise or manipulate the apparent supply and/or demand -- see Microsoft's "trade secret" contracts with OEMs. "Dumping" can artificially inflate supply as a long-term strategy to drive out smaller players.

Anti-trust legislation is intended -- in the view of "pure" marketplace economics -- to restore the "proper" functioning of a market that has been excessively manipulated by a player that can wield too many of the previously mentioned tactics.
This is my sig. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
New Oh, shut the (*#@$ up.
I spent an hour and a half writing my opus, and you summed it up that fast?

#@*$&@@*@#(*&@(*&@)$&@#*&$^@&*^($%%%$@#$)(@&$_&@&$)#@&)&$

And (*$&^$@^$@*$_*$&@$^&@$ your little dog, too!

*AUGH*

Addison
New *chuckle*

Imric's Tips for Living
  • Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
  • Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
  • Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
New Re: Fine!
Ok. Fine... Then please define what a 'market force' is - and what it is not. I have never claimed to be an economist.

"Market force" is the push towards equilibrium.

First, in classical econ, if you presume starting with a "free market" - many buyers, many sellers, and perfect knowledge, you get a supply/demand curve.

*sigh*. Just look at this with a fixed font:
|\\S /D
| \\ /
| x
| / \\
|/ \\
----------
^Cost > Units

X is the equilibrium point - where the most buyers and sellers agree.

As we all know, that's not realistic. Some items, for instance, aren't elastic - if you've got to have a drug to stay alive, and its made by one company, then that throws the above out of whack.

If you were in a "free market" - then anybody could produce that drug, and soon the cost would be slightly above what it takes them to make it (back to equilibrium). (pardon me for not trying to do a more complex graph showing an out of eq condition).

The market always drives towards equilibrium. Yeah, that's slightly religious, but you can see it with just about anything. How many people who just got laid off ran out an bought luxury cars? Around here, at least, the car dealers are offering much better deals than they had been, because they're selling *lots less* new/slightly used cars.

Things like imperfect information are corrected, over time. (as more people come to find out the information, buy less), etc. etc.

Now, a monopoly is a market imbalance. Because of the monopoly, the S curve moves up, as they *can* charge more, the Demand stays about the same. (I need a whiteboard). But basically you're now charging more than the market bears. Which means, profit.

Which means, somebody else is gonna say "We're not just doing this for money... we're doing it for a SHITLOAD of money!" and jump in.

Thus for a monopoly to succeed (to digress slightly), there can't be easy subsitution (elasticity), and there can't be perfect knowledge.

So you *can* show monopoly on these sorts of charts. But - if they charge too much, eventually SOMEBODY will find a way to open that up, and make their own money. Which is why you have trademarks and patents and "government enforced" monopolies...

But back to the "simple" market. You and I make widgets. Interchangeable for all intents and purposes. We charge 5 clams apiece, and sell 4 goombahs a day of them (each, total of eight). If you raise your price to 7 clams - and I don't raise mine - what happens? I'll sell 8 goombahs. Assuming I don't have 8 of them, I'll sell the 6 I do have, and you'll sell 1. The last will drop off, because the seller will say "that's too much" (the demand drops to 7 at your price.). Can you afford to do that?

Depends on a lot, on your costs, on my costs. Maybe I'll raise my price to 6 clams, maybe I can increase my production then, and sell all 7 goombahs of 'em, and you don't sell any. Oops. you're in trouble. So you'll have to drop your price to 6... and then you'll sell 3 goombahs.

*That's* market force.

Say for instance, you can't charge less than that. You've got to charge that much to cover your expenses. Either you'll sell less - or I'll raise my price and make more money, selling less (because you'll again get 1/2 the sales). If I'm making too much, then we'll get a 3rd seller in soon, and he'll sell for 5 clams again, and be happy with those results, and we'll all have to drop prices.

Its the competition between buyers (and sellers) that drives the equibrium. And as you know, there isn't perfect knowledge. But as things are cheaper, you'll sell more. More expensive, less. That's market force.

So you get the "realities" in. Especially in constrained areas. Say, for instance (Hi, Ben), New York City housing. Now, there's a problem with the "simple" model here - that its not easy to ramp up more housing. So the demand goes up, and the supply goes down. So the prices go higher and higher. So, since its so expensive, and democracy is great, the government steps in and puts a ceiling on what you can charge.

So your apartment is "worth" 500 clams, now. But the government says you can't charge but 250. So you're "losing" 250 clams. Is this market force? No. Its an external influence on the market. Supply and demand aren't coming to an equilibrium. (Otherwise, it would be worthwhile for more apartments to be built/buildings converted/renovated, etc, until it wasn't profitable). With the ceiling in place, there's a limit to what you can charge/profit, so its not worthwhile for other people to enter the market. (And the actual laws, as I undertand them, are pretty byzantine).

Back again to the monopoly. Since you can't subsitute, since you have to buy from the monopoly, the monopoly gets to charge what it wants, and artificially change the S/D curve. Now - notice that for the most part, the *sales* will *decrease* under a monopoly. wait, you can't notice. Argh. I need a whiteboard.

[link|http://www.westvalley.edu/wvc/ss/econ/micro.html|Graphs]

In that graph, with Microsoft, rather than selling X at $70, they sell Y at $190 (and theoretically make a lot more).

Drat. can't find better graphs on a quick search.

Anyways.

So antitrust (remember Antitrust, its a song about antitrust) doesn't show up here anywhere. I see what you're getting at now, but its still not a market force. What antitrust attempts to do is be another external influence, that ALLOWS the market force (price versus demand) to take over.

Take Standard Oil (please). Antitrust didn't *lower* prices, it created seperate companies - so that THEY would compete (and in theory, lower the price to the equilibrium). So its wasn't a market force, itself, but (in theory) would allow market forces to re-control that market.

This makes it an external influence, but not a market force, no matter whether it was because of the market, or Nancy Reagan's astrologer. (Which notice, would be just as valid a reason as a monopoly getting people to call their congresscritter....)

That seems to be a matter of (religious?) faith to me... Can you PROVE this? Mathematically, that is.

It is, to a degree. And there's a lot of economist blood spilled over that point. I take the viewpoint that eventually, it *will* be made irrelevant, based on past history. Had AT&T kept their stranglehold on telephones, instead of satellites attacking cable, they'd have gone after the more lucrative phone market, (for a possible example).

IBM's monopoly on mainframes was hampered by the ready supply of "minicomputers" by Digital and others.

So its my belief that in the long term, the market *will* correct for a monopoly, but that's not a reason not to have antitrust.

Addison
New Thanks for an illuminating thread, all.
I summarize ~ as heard here and mulled:

We may not 'blame' the economists for their simple models, though twit same, whenever the dialogue becomes too religious. These have demonstrated utility -- about the buy/sell process only. Clear enough now re 'market forces' and the need to separate that *idea* from meta-(market forces).

Then maybe we can define~ a mercantile culture is one in which buying/selling is a major daily occupation and, one might say - becomes also a preoccupation (the buy/sell process). Then it seems: whether inevitably? or just usually - the "means of barter" (money) Itself becomes a Larger aim than, the more tawdry details of the exchange mechanism. It follows: maximizing personal advantage becomes the (for some.. only?) major goal - certainly Not 'equitable distribution for least overhead possible'. Psych enters too: "what the traffic will bear" - always sets price more than does cost - except as limits are reached.

Further, at least in our case: the items exchanged.. long since have gone beyond any idea of "those things needed to support life" and on into the land of er 'manufactured Wants' (an industry we call marketing, one based largely upon exaggeration and other forms of lying-for-$)

So within this context, however imperfectly described:

It appears that The Market is ever agnostic; is irrelevant to - specifically - any smallest idea of say, "quality of life produced" via mere, laissez-faire er marketing forces No?

If this is close enough for government work (?) it would seem that, vastly most important to *any* idea of "the quality of life" is precisely:

Some (wise! but at least responsive?.. effective then) means of meta-market oversight. And necessarily, for reasons of the limits of language and within our employment of phrases like, quality of life - the exploration and implementation of this 'function':

Can never have the pseudo- 'mathematical precision' of the mere "ideas of a free market left to equilibrium via the named simple forces".

I believe that these may be some of the clashing concepts lying behind ~ why.. much in Econ 101 leaves many a bit too cold and others a bit over-heated in zeal (to apply math to: human events).

(Hell, it may even 'explain' why some of the polarized labels get attached, as for ex. to er Repos (not to be confused with the 'Republican'-half of the single party with 2 Right-wings) Darwinian Capitalism?

Perhaps Repos are ones (of whatever other 'politics') who really do imagine that math can cover it all. Libruls tag might be for those who imagine that the math is irrelevant; social consequences are all.

So much for the extremes but, seems clear enough that the math AND the social consequences ever must modify any idea of Capitalism else: it, being amoral in every sense - can indeed morph into (whatever brand of) Totalitarianism, hegemony of the few; anti- any concepts of 'democracy'.

As.. lately, perhaps?
Billy n'Bally our D.E.W. line.. focussing attention on the weaknesses of integration, to date.


My 3 zlotys..


Ashton Smith G\ufffddel
New Aieee!
Well, I've tried to reply point-by-point asking for some clarifications, etc., but something is killing Mozilla. Three times now. During the course of those replies, I answered my most of own questions, though.

Thanks for the excellent reply!




Imric's Tips for Living
  • Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
  • Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
  • Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
New In support of your position
Where are the railway monopolies, self corrected by new technology. Any monopoly must indeed fail under its own weight as the market that hits the monopolistic wall will find a way to go around, unfortunately this usually leads to violence and social upheaval.
thanx,
bill
Our bureaucracy and our laws have turned the world into a clean, safe work camp. We are raising a nation of slaves.
Chuck Palahniuk
     Bill Gates's way, or no way - (addison) - (105)
         A lesson - - (imric) - (104)
             At last I see, the only viable solution next: - (Ashton)
             Wrong lesson. - (addison) - (102)
                 This faith may not be entirely misplaced but.. - (Ashton)
                 And the Thousand Year Reich would have corrected itself . . - (Andrew Grygus) - (7)
                     Touch\ufffd____cackle___cackle_____Market Forces for Dummies\ufffd - (Ashton)
                     Markets, Andrew, not Governments. - (addison) - (5)
                         False Godwin. - (inthane-chan) - (1)
                             False False godwin. - (addison)
                         I fail to see the difference. - (Andrew Grygus) - (2)
                             The one sentence version - (Andrew Grygus)
                             I agree, its a failing. :) - (addison)
                 I disagree. - (Another Scott) - (15)
                     Re: I disagree. - (addison) - (14)
                         The infrastructure would still be there . . . - (Andrew Grygus) - (4)
                             That's a "presume" not a "simply". - (addison) - (3)
                                 What's Microsoft's ratio of "plants, trucks, etc"... - (CRConrad) - (1)
                                     Erm. I think you got mixed up. - (addison)
                                 Counterexample. - (a6l6e6x)
                         SOAP - (Decco Dave) - (8)
                             Needs more washing - (addison) - (3)
                                 Re: Needs more washing - (Decco Dave) - (2)
                                     Needs a LOT more washing. - (addison) - (1)
                                         Interoperation? - (Decco Dave)
                             Re: SOAP - MS 'invented' SOAP ? - (dmarker2) - (1)
                                 Pleasing MS - (Decco Dave)
                             Microsoft did not invent SOAP. - (Andrew Grygus) - (1)
                                 Dave Winer. - (static)
                 Antitrust law IS a 'market correction' -NT - (imric) - (76)
                     No, its an artificial outside influence, like ceiling/floors -NT - (addison) - (43)
                         Wrong. - (imric) - (42)
                             If you insist on perverting the language, fine. - (addison) - (41)
                                 noting previous antitrust vs. Microsoft - (wharris2) - (1)
                                     Absolute faith in a simplistic concept, 'free market' - (Ashton)
                                 So hostile... - (imric) - (38)
                                     Because its a "concept" that disallows agreement. - (addison) - (37)
                                         Now we know - (Silverlock) - (4)
                                             Re: Now we know - (addison) - (3)
                                                 Just going by history - (Silverlock) - (2)
                                                     I suggest you repeat History, you've forgotten it. - (addison) - (1)
                                                         Sorry dude, you just rub me the wrong way - (Silverlock)
                                         Sure. Whatever. - (imric) - (3)
                                             Re: Sure. Whatever. - (addison) - (2)
                                                 ? - (imric) - (1)
                                                     You've gotten confused. - (addison)
                                         Shoplifting is a market force . . - (Andrew Grygus) - (2)
                                             WOT - (jbrabeck)
                                             Not really. - (addison)
                                         Huh??? - (CRConrad) - (4)
                                             Context, CRC, context. - (addison) - (3)
                                                 What, you think BeeP is the only economist in here??? - (CRConrad) - (2)
                                                     No idea how many there are in here. - (addison)
                                                     Econometrics...cool - (bepatient)
                                         Good point... - (hnick) - (17)
                                             Two approaches to "the market" - (Andrew Grygus) - (16)
                                                 Re: Two approaches to "the market" - (addison) - (11)
                                                     BTW: - (addison) - (10)
                                                         Which is why you adhere . . . - (Andrew Grygus) - (9)
                                                             Which is why I asked... - (addison) - (8)
                                                                 How "Super Buys" work . . - (Andrew Grygus) - (7)
                                                                     Hey! I think I see a 'graph' in there________:-\ufffd - (Ashton) - (1)
                                                                         Adventures in marketing #48734655j - (Andrew Grygus)
                                                                     Or, for the 'engineering model' - (Ashton) - (1)
                                                                         No problem - it's "Faith Based" -NT - (Andrew Grygus)
                                                                     Missed item - (wharris2) - (2)
                                                                         dollar stores also - (boxley)
                                                                         No, I got that . . . - (Andrew Grygus)
                                                 Boys boys boys.... - (bepatient) - (3)
                                                     Now don't spoil it, BP - (Ashton)
                                                     How much is this a semantic argument? - (drewk) - (1)
                                                         Definition... - (bepatient)
                                         hate to let a perfectly degenerating thread go to waste. - (boxley) - (1)
                                             Ah.. but the *Biggest* 'marketing force' has to be - (Ashton)
                     I think there is a definition issue here - (ben_tilly) - (31)
                         Exactly. Thanks. - (addison) - (30)
                             Fine! - (imric) - (7)
                                 Market theory assumes idealized conditions. - (drewk) - (2)
                                     Oh, shut the (*#@$ up. - (addison) - (1)
                                         *chuckle* -NT - (imric)
                                 Re: Fine! - (addison) - (3)
                                     Thanks for an illuminating thread, all. - (Ashton)
                                     Aieee! - (imric)
                                     In support of your position - (boxley)
                             Where do you get this stuff from??? - (CRConrad) - (21)
                                 Many years of econ classes. - (addison) - (17)
                                     How many? And of *what* -- Econ 101, over and over again...? - (CRConrad) - (6)
                                         3. - (addison)
                                         Apologies to Mr. Smith, for having blamed him for - (Ashton)
                                         Natural monopoly - (bepatient) - (3)
                                             yeah right Auburn :-) - (boxley)
                                             yeah right Auburn :-) - (boxley) - (1)
                                                 Just had to give the credit.... - (bepatient)
                                     Not just time but method - (mhuber) - (9)
                                         Yep...sometimes what is substituted... - (bepatient) - (8)
                                             How so? - (Silverlock) - (7)
                                                 Issues... - (bepatient) - (6)
                                                     Good! the nitty-gritty.. finally. - (Ashton)
                                                     I figured Billy needs a personal punishment. - (Andrew Grygus) - (3)
                                                         Well... - (bepatient)
                                                         Then why didn't you describe one? :-) - (static) - (1)
                                                             Nope. Then he'd go into politics directly, 'stead of buying' -NT - (Ashton)
                                                     Re: Issues... - (addison)
                                 Oh it will... - (bepatient) - (1)
                                     Well... we are still waiting on that last supposition - (Ashton)
                                 AT&T - (wharris2)

It's watching you from across the way...
151 ms