It shouldn't matter who says what.

Yes, the message should matter much more than the messenger. But in politics, it's very difficult to separate them. An awful lot of the criticism of Hillary revolves around her history and private conversations. I have no way to judge the veracity of most of those who claim first-hand knowledge of the various bad things she's accused of doing.

She rubs me the wrong way, too. I don't like the way she talks when she gives speeches. It's grating to my ears and it's a visceral reaction. Her head-bobbing when Bill gave speeches was another thing that I thought was manipulative and the press played along with it. I don't like some of the things I've read about her time in Arkansas (like her making so much money on cattle futures, with help from her friends). But she seems to generate great loyalty from people who know her (with the famous exception or two).

I don't think she's evil. I think the fact that she's held up so well from the decades of whithering criticism indicates that she's not just a political hack. She's a hack with some substance, unlike, say, (fill in the blank).

Calling her "skank" strikes me as being much worse than calling Bush "shrub" and I thought that was borderline childish. If one has criticism of her, one makes a better case by using verifiable facts and by not using misogynistic terms.

IMHO, of course. :-)

Cheers,
Scott.
(Who wonders why so many are brainwashed that Presidents have to be "likable" these days.)

Post #283,890 by a6l6e6x 5/4/07 11:21:01 AM Reply	It shouldn't matter who says what. The question is, is something true or not and does it matter? Use your brain to sort thing out. You want a woman Senator for president? How about Senator Susan Collins of Maine? There's someone who puts country before party. Alex When fascism comes to America, it'll be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross. -- Sinclair Lewis
Post #283,891 by Seamus 5/4/07 11:27:56 AM Reply	No it shouldn't matter But, calling her a skank implies a gut level reaction that goes beyond what she is saying. Criticize her for failings as a politician, there certainly is a lot to criticize. Seamus
Post #283,894 by boxley 5/4/07 11:43:59 AM Reply	not at all, here is the definition [link\|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=227934\|http://z.iwethey.org...?contentid=227934] thanx, bill Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 51 years. meep reach me at [link\|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net\|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net]
Post #283,897 by Seamus 5/4/07 12:02:20 PM Reply	By that definition almost all of the politicians are skanks So it becomes rather meaningless. I personally don't like her, but what puts her on the same scale as Shrub? That previous post was short of specifics, what makes her stand out from the normal fuckwitted behavior of other politicians? Seamus
Post #283,899 by boxley 5/4/07 12:32:46 PM Reply	I like this quote "The Clintons have the largest collection of affidavits and letters attesting to alleged non-events to be found in contemporary politics." how many other candidates can be tagged with un-indicted co-conspirator? turning the cradle of serbian orthodoxy into a muslim state which the russians are still highly pissed about. The constant non stop illegal fundraising in which she is being sued yet again by someone whose pocket she has picked and then turned on. From Rosen to Geffen to the chinese. blech, its lunch and I havnt eaten. Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 51 years. meep reach me at [link\|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net\|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net]
Post #283,900 by Seamus 5/4/07 12:46:51 PM 5/4/07 12:50:46 PM Reply	Alot of the animosity comes from Clintons being as sucessful as they were and a lot of it is deserved. What makes her a skank but not Delay nor Gringrich? Seamus Edited by Seamus May 4, 2007, 12:50:46 PM EDT Expand All History
Post #283,906 by boxley 5/4/07 2:13:23 PM Reply	what lttle non entities did they crush? Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 51 years. meep reach me at [link\|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net\|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net]
Post #283,910 by Seamus 5/4/07 3:18:03 PM Reply	Delay and Blankenship Gringrich and his ex-wives By your definition all 3 are skanks, yet only Hillary deserves your wrath? All 3 should deserve your wrath, there is nothing that should make Hillary stand apart from Delay, Gringrich and others. They all should make the grade as skanks, but you save that label for Hillary. She seem obsessed with her. Seamus
Post #283,914 by boxley 5/4/07 4:29:36 PM Reply	blankenship is not a little people and an exwife getting fucked appears to be a rebublican standard. By little I mean employees of hotels, waitress getting stiffed on the bill. Real little people. Now tell me why she is better presidential material than anyone else. Any of the Democrats and almost all of the republicans are better choices yet you are championing her cause? Does the skank label fit? In my mind yes. In your mind "Savior of free world" Seems like a deadlock. I just hope she is not the candidate so I wont have to vote against her. I would rather vote for someone this go round. thanx, bill Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 51 years. meep reach me at [link\|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net\|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net]
Post #283,916 by Seamus 5/4/07 4:43:48 PM Reply	I am not championing her by any means I am just wondering what sets her apart from the others in your eyes and now I think I understand. I find them all distasteful. How her treatment of the real little people compares to other politicians, I can not say. If she is the demo candidate, I will vote for Nader. Seamus
Post #284,048 by CRConrad 5/6/07 8:27:19 AM Reply	And that makes YOU, too, a right-wing-nut. It was fuckwits voting for Nader that put Shrub in the Oval Office in the fucking first place. Whoever isn't against him is for him. [link\|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode\|Christian R. Conrad] (I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.) Ah, the Germans: Masters of Convoluted Simplification. — [link\|http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/?p=1603\|Jehovah]
Post #284,068 by Seamus 5/6/07 11:08:22 AM Reply	I said it tongue in cheek and I should have indicated that Having said it wasn't a comment on Hillary or 2008 repo candidate let alone Hillary or Shrub, just that I am not fond of Hillary. As to the 2000 election, if the people who voted for Nader had voted for Gore instead, he still might have lost due to republican chicanery. Seamus
Post #284,072 by bepatient 5/6/07 11:19:12 AM Reply	You're out of your head. And its not the first time. Those idiots voting for Nader voted for who they wanted. The Democrats put GWB in the office by putting forward loser candidates and not delivering a unified message to the US Voters. Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry._{Adrian Belew}
Post #284,205 by jb4 5/8/07 11:37:38 AM 5/8/07 11:39:41 AM Reply	You ARE kidding, right? DeLay disenfranchised roughly 40% of the Great State of Tejas through his engineered gerrymandering of the state in a non-census year. Strikes me as a rather large number of "little non-entities" in that group (and a couple for larger non-entities, if you count the Congrescritters that lost their seats as a result). jb4 "It's hard for me, you know, living in this beautiful White House, to give you a firsthand assessment." — George W. Bush, when asked if he believed Iraq was in a state of civil war (Newsweek, 26 Feb 07) Edited by jb4 May 8, 2007, 11:39:41 AM EDT Expand All History
Post #284,212 by boxley 5/8/07 12:27:59 PM Reply	name one individual little person that delay hosed over as bad as the waitress that got stiffed for a $100+ meal tab like Hillary did. Most other people would have admitted the oversight (as did hill) and rushed to personally apologize and out of their own pocket pay the tab plus healthy tip. Not our Hil, she grumped that she wasnt supposed to pay for the meal, and grimaced when she found someone else to settle the tab for the face amount. That IS SKANKY by definition. Now name the person that delay PERSONALLY stiffed like that. A person he didnt know or was related to. An ordinary person. thanx, bill Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 51 years. meep reach me at [link\|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net\|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net]
Post #284,221 by Seamus 5/8/07 1:18:27 PM Reply	The way you are going on about the waitress issue I thought it was some type of habitual thing she did. I have only seen the one incident reported and she sent the waitress' son a $100 savings bond. Is there more to your personal animosity towards her? OTOH, if Delay is good tipper that makes him less of a vile person than Hillary? Seamus
Post #284,253 by jb4 5/8/07 6:02:30 PM Reply	Hi. Let me intorduce myself. My name is Jay, I'm a little person (no, not that kind of Little Person; rather, the kind Box is referring to), and I got hosed over by DeLay. How, you might ask, somewhat incredulously? Well, due to DeLay's meddlings, I have been denied accurate, proper representation in the US House of Representatives. No, I'm not a resident of Tejas (Gawd be praised), but since the gerrymandering he engineered has reduced the ranks of those who oppose the current "administation" from what they would otherwise be, I find that my life, liberty, and property are at greater risk than they would be had Tom Delay just been a regular everyday ol' white-collar felon. So, yes..I've been hosed. Next question? jb4 "It's hard for me, you know, living in this beautiful White House, to give you a firsthand assessment." — George W. Bush, when asked if he believed Iraq was in a state of civil war (Newsweek, 26 Feb 07)
Post #284,254 by boxley 5/8/07 6:06:12 PM Reply	quit waggin yer weinie, not the same at all Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 51 years. meep reach me at [link\|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net\|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net]
Post #284,266 by Seamus 5/8/07 7:08:36 PM Reply	No not the same at all Waitresses got stiffed on a tip once in a while and are occasionally stiffed for the whole bill - usually by drunk idiots pulling a d&d. Hillary at least was able to recognize the need to look concerned about the problem. Delay still doesn't think he didn't anything wrong and is actively working so more repos can do more of the same to those poor lil' texan bastards. Seamus
Post #284,267 by boxley 5/8/07 7:11:09 PM Reply	it would matter if more than 1/2 VOTED till then piss ass games for the people who care of which most of the people in this country dont thanx, bill Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 51 years. meep reach me at [link\|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net\|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net]
Post #284,268 by Seamus 5/8/07 7:18:17 PM Reply	We go to war with the electorate we have not with the electorate we wish we had... Seamus
Post #284,582 by jb4 5/13/07 9:52:14 PM Reply	Nicely said! jb4 "It's hard for me, you know, living in this beautiful White House, to give you a firsthand assessment." — George W. Bush, when asked if he believed Iraq was in a state of civil war (Newsweek, 26 Feb 07)
Post #284,047 by CRConrad 5/6/07 8:24:05 AM Reply	So, y'all show us where you've called Shrub a skank as often
Post #284,065 by boxley 5/6/07 10:54:37 AM Reply	skank is a female word although skanky is indegenderate Ive called him a fucktard which is equal genderly speaking thanx, bill Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 51 years. meep reach me at [link\|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net\|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net]
Post #284,074 by CRConrad 5/6/07 11:26:11 AM Reply	Actually not equal, AFAICS / IMO. "Fucktard" is a fricking term of endearment, in comparison to "skank". [link\|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode\|Christian R. Conrad] (I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.) Ah, the Germans: Masters of Convoluted Simplification. — [link\|http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/?p=1603\|Jehovah]
Post #284,078 by pwhysall 5/6/07 11:50:29 AM Reply	Nowhere near, IMO "skank" is at least as offensive as "nigger", IMO. Peter [link\|http://www.no2id.net/\|Don't Let The Terrorists Win] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes! [link\|http://kevan.org/brain.cgi?pwhysall\|A better terminal emulator] [image\|http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h262/pwhysall/Misc/saveus.png\|0\|Darwinia\|\|]
Post #284,104 by boxley 5/6/07 7:52:05 PM Reply	depends on whether you are one dunnit? Although I dont usually agree with RB KKK Byrd, nigger isnt a color its an attitude thanx, bill Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 51 years. meep reach me at [link\|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net\|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net]
Post #283,898 by Another Scott 5/4/07 12:25:23 PM Reply	It's hard to tell what's true, sometimes. Yes, the message should matter much more than the messenger. But in politics, it's very difficult to separate them. An awful lot of the criticism of Hillary revolves around her history and private conversations. I have no way to judge the veracity of most of those who claim first-hand knowledge of the various bad things she's accused of doing. She rubs me the wrong way, too. I don't like the way she talks when she gives speeches. It's grating to my ears and it's a visceral reaction. Her head-bobbing when Bill gave speeches was another thing that I thought was manipulative and the press played along with it. I don't like some of the things I've read about her time in Arkansas (like her making so much money on cattle futures, with help from her friends). But she seems to generate great loyalty from people who know her (with the famous exception or two). I don't think she's evil. I think the fact that she's held up so well from the decades of whithering criticism indicates that she's not just a political hack. She's a hack with some substance, unlike, say, (fill in the blank). Calling her "skank" strikes me as being much worse than calling Bush "shrub" and I thought that was borderline childish. If one has criticism of her, one makes a better case by using verifiable facts and by not using misogynistic terms. IMHO, of course. :-) Cheers, Scott. (Who wonders why so many are brainwashed that Presidents have to be "likable" these days.)

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