Re: The value of PCs without software?

Post #276,208 by Simon_Jester 12/20/06 9:48:41 AM Reply	Re: The value of PCs without software? PCs w/o an OS can be bought No, they can't - unless you build it yourself from bits. Actually that not true. You can buy a PC built from www.monarchcomputers.com without any OS. PCs w/ Linux can be bought I can't buy a mainstream Dell or HP with Linux on it, even though Linux runs just fine on Dimension desktops. First you can buy Servers from Dell and HP without an OS, just not the consumer level electronics. (The market dictated that one, regardless of what Microsoft wanted to do. :-)) Second, isn't that Dell's and HP's fault? (And as Scott pointed out...aren't they doing poorly, they're paying the price, no?) Shrug. At this point, the issue is pretty much stupid. At one point this mattered as there was some serious competition at the desktop level (OS/2, BeOS)...but those days are gone. That doesn't mean I ignore what Microsoft did at that point however. You can say I hate them, but I refuse to give them a free pass on it. 2nd, it ignore the issues that are occuring now. Microsoft's new Vista licensing basically allowed it to charge higher prices if you're going to use their product with VMWare (or other virtualization software.) IMO, that is clearly anti-trust. (But very advantagous to Microsoft's Virtualization software business).
Post #276,210 by pwhysall 12/20/06 10:10:24 AM Reply	Re: The value of PCs without software? No, they can't - unless you build it yourself from bits. Actually that not true. You can buy a PC built from www.monarchcomputers.com without any OS. That's slightly disingenous. They're not new PCs - they're refurbs (and fairly low-end, crappy refurbs at that). Someone else has, at some point, used that computer to download monkey porn. No thanks. First you can buy Servers from Dell and HP without an OS, just not the consumer level electronics. (The market dictated that one, regardless of what Microsoft wanted to do. :-)) Second, isn't that Dell's and HP's fault? (And as Scott pointed out...aren't they doing poorly, they're paying the price, no?) You can buy servers and only servers. Also, you missed my point. Why should I pay for another copy of Windows XP when I have a completely legitimate copy right here, that's EXACTLY the same as the one I'd get to buy again? Shrug. At this point, the issue is pretty much stupid. At one point this mattered as there was some serious competition at the desktop level (OS/2, BeOS)...but those days are gone. coughMac OS Xcough (and BeOS was never serious competition for anything, anyway) That doesn't mean I ignore what Microsoft did at that point however. You can say I hate them, but I refuse to give them a free pass on it. Ar. 2nd, it ignore the issues that are occuring now. Microsoft's new Vista licensing basically allowed it to charge higher prices if you're going to use their product with VMWare (or other virtualization software.) IMO, that is clearly anti-trust. It'll be interesting to see what the new EULA terms in Vista actually mean once they've been through the lawyer mill. There's been a lot of armchair quarterbacking on this topic. (But very advantagous to Microsoft's Virtualization software business). Maybe, maybe not. The main problem for MS's VM software is that, compared to things like Parallels and VMWare, it's really very crap. Peter [link\|http://www.no2id.net/\|Don't Let The Terrorists Win] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes! [link\|http://kevan.org/brain.cgi?pwhysall\|A better terminal emulator] [image\|http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h262/pwhysall/Misc/saveus.png\|0\|Darwinia\|\|]
Post #276,214 by Simon_Jester 12/20/06 11:30:05 AM 12/20/06 11:44:26 AM Reply	Wow.... That's slightly disingenous. They're not new PCs - they're refurbs (and fairly low-end, crappy refurbs at that). Someone else has, at some point, used that computer to download monkey porn. No thanks. Wow....they changed their site...recently. That refurbished stuff is brand new. Well, that kills the custom system I was planning on buying from them. So much for their [link\|http://www.monarchcomputer.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=M&Category_Code=ULB\| Ultimate Linux System] You can buy servers and only servers. Also, you missed my point. Why should I pay for another copy of Windows XP when I have a completely legitimate copy right here, that's EXACTLY the same as the one I'd get to buy again? Ah, back to the Microsoft tax. This DOES tie back into the original post of this thread. Because the issue ISN'T whether or not you get buy a computer system without an OS. The question is whether or not you can get a REFUND from Microsoft (or the OEM) if you buy a System and DO NOT ACCEPT with their EULA (which they promise to do in their EULA). Frankly, if France forced that, it wouldn't matter if they sold systems with Windows or not. Edited by Simon_Jester Dec. 20, 2006, 11:40:52 AM EST Edited by Simon_Jester Dec. 20, 2006, 11:44:26 AM EST Expand All History
Post #276,215 by pwhysall 12/20/06 11:47:07 AM Reply	The refund is wrong. I shouldn't have to get a refund - and if we're being honest, not everyone who's asked for a refund has received it. I should have the option of not buying Windows with the computer in the first place - which is the fundamental point that Andy D seems hell-bent on ignoring. Peter [link\|http://www.no2id.net/\|Don't Let The Terrorists Win] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes! [link\|http://kevan.org/brain.cgi?pwhysall\|A better terminal emulator] [image\|http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h262/pwhysall/Misc/saveus.png\|0\|Darwinia\|\|]
Post #276,287 by andread 12/21/06 10:02:37 AM Reply	a little googling put in pc with no operating system first un-sponsored link [link\|http://www.misco.co.uk/categories/~1645~/No%20Operating%20System.htm\|http://www.misco.co....ting%20System.htm] the second link yielded this quote Several PC vendors contacted by ZDNet UK were reluctant to comment on the issues surrounding base systems. One, though, did say that they hadn't encountered any difficulties. "We've had no pressure from Microsoft, yet," said a representative from Chillblast, a UK PC vendor that sells some computers without operating systems. A Play I Some Music w/ Papa Andy Saturday 8 PM - 11 PM ET All Night Rewind 11 PM - 5 PM Reggae, African and Caribbean Music [link\|http://wxxe.org\|Tune In]
Post #276,289 by Another Scott 12/21/06 10:32:06 AM Reply	Did ZD do a followup, hmmm?
Post #276,311 by Simon_Jester 12/21/06 2:20:52 PM Reply	No pressure...of course not. Cost differences if Windows isn't the pre-loaded OS. [link\|http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/01/20/microsoft_gets_green_light/\|MDA/MDP] And pressure [link\|http://www.aaxnet.com/news/M010425.html\| on OEM's to find out who's requesting OS-less computers] Arguing that OS-less computer exist is one thing. Arguing that they're as cheap as other machines is something else. Arguing that there isn't any pressure - well, that one is laughable.
Post #276,313 by Andrew Grygus 12/21/06 2:38:18 PM Reply	As a builder formerly listed as a "Microsoft Partner" - . . I got letters from Microsoft asking me to send to them the names and addresses of customers who requested computers without an operating system. I posted one of those letters on the Internet and there was a big fuss, after which they stopped sending me letters like that - but they were definitely after any business buying computers without Windows - and probably still are. [link\|http://www.aaxnet.com\|AAx]
Post #276,403 by Ashton 12/22/06 3:19:41 AM Reply	Re: a little googling ____ Not. So. Fast. there, fanboy Try your naive lookup with ""s - (for under 28M hits) See the numbers fall for "pc with no operating system" _{_{...on down to 252.}} Your torture-mutilation of logic offends my sensibilities. Only in a nation whose Leadership is based upon the anti-logical, could this thread be deemed other than an intellectual embarrassment. Yes, two hundred fifty-two - a number which accords with many searches for items I knew to be veritably 'unique' == it is right Within That Ballpark. Note how many - just in the intro headers - open with phrases, These are all UPGRADE ONLY you cannot build a PC from parts & you cannot buy a PC with no operating system, then install any version of Microsoft Windows ... and Christ, their licence stops them selling PC's with NO operating system - remember the court case in Australia when someone tried to get a \ufffd100 refund on the ... and Washington Post explains why I give my stepdaughters Linux computers They can't even sell a PC with NO operating system. They used to, but then Microsoft told them that if they wanted to keep selling computers with windows ... community.linux.com/comments.pl?sid=33858&op=&threshold=0&commentsort=0&mode=thread&t... - 19k - Cached - Similar pages Etc. So then, as to your tissue of faux-naive assertions, including the implication that you actually "work in IT" -??- are you (still) asserting that: 1) You didn't know of "these pressures" thus, of: the entire history of your fav Corp? -OR- since you appear to rely exclusively upon a naked perverse 'logic' for all your jelloware processing 2) That you know of its history and you approve of its methods? (Thus will contrive any technicality, like: a handful, worldwide, of Exceptions to the general Rule of, Unavailablilty of Non-M$-loaded PCs: in an attempt to evade the ethical barbarism implicit - and made possible only via an illegal abuse-of-monopoly.) Because IF 2), THEN your brain is well and truly Redmond Conditioned - why, you'd have to be a 'Clear' (in another techno-religion) to imagine that your periodic quips ever rise to the merely disingenuous. Maybe you are acquainted with an avowed M$ Shill of an earlier venue? (EZBoard IIRC) - one 'Dale Ross' - who asserted, if it's legal it's ethical! (Not that the above abuses are even legal -- merely, it is that the current Administration does not enforce the conditions dictated by the punishment for that Guilty plea: a case wherein the logical is trumped - illegally - via incompetence (or purchase? as used to be called bribery) in applying the rule of law. So which is it: willfully uninformed or nakedly perverse? Mr. Logic-man.
Post #276,445 by Andrew Grygus 12/22/06 12:48:15 PM Reply	Ashton . . . you trying to overload the poor boy? It's clear he has difficulty comprehending single sentence statements with clear points and you spring one of your elaborate treatises on him? His circuits are going to fry if he tries to read this thing. Be kind, it's Christmas! [link\|http://www.aaxnet.com\|AAx]
Post #276,469 by andread 12/22/06 9:09:45 PM Reply	Re: a little googling it only takes one white crow to show that all crows are not black I didn't make up the list I googled the first site is selling a PC w/ no OS the second link discusses a company that sells PCs w/ no OS and says that may account for 5% of the market in the UK stop pontificating for a moment A Play I Some Music w/ Papa Andy Saturday 8 PM - 11 PM ET All Night Rewind 11 PM - 5 PM Reggae, African and Caribbean Music [link\|http://wxxe.org\|Tune In]
Post #276,475 by bepatient 12/22/06 9:55:32 PM Reply	Ooh boy DOJ considers monopoly position 35-40%. You've shown a 5% placement of no OS machines and a 95% placement of MS. Take another 10% for Apple (I'm a generous sort). ANd you still ignore the fact that I would like a DELL machine with no OS. I can get it with all sorts of other options. Why not that one? Disingenuous "r" us. Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry._{Adrian Belew}
Post #276,519 by andread 12/23/06 10:28:47 AM Reply	Ooh you want a Dell desktop/laptop w/ no OS Dell doesn't sell 'em if this is illegal, complain to the authorities if they don't do anything, they must see it differently I really didn't respond in this thread to have an MS discussion my position was, and is, if there really is a market for no o/s boxes then the nature of business implies that someone will fill it apparently some have only Pete W actually addressed this directly by saying that that company would have to pay full price for Windows (which according to the vast majority in this thread they wouldn't need and if they're not buying then it wouldn't matter if MS charged them 10000% more than they charge Dell) you call me disingenuous, when I've seen so many posts here slagging the mainstream OEMs (mainly for quality and support issues) and yet in this thread everyone suddenly wants to buy one, but only ones that aren't for sale personally, when I get a new desktop for home in 07, I will select the components I want individually and put it together, no one will force me to buy any OS at work, we get all our boxes from Lenovo w/ XP which is what we use A Play I Some Music w/ Papa Andy Saturday 8 PM - 11 PM ET All Night Rewind 11 PM - 5 PM Reggae, African and Caribbean Music [link\|http://wxxe.org\|Tune In]
Post #276,531 by drewk 12/23/06 1:02:46 PM Reply	I know you're missing this on purpose, but ... only Pete W actually addressed this directly by saying that that company would have to pay full price for Windows (which according to the vast majority in this thread they wouldn't need and if they're not buying then it wouldn't matter if MS charged them 10000% more than they charge Dell) No. If the company offered to sell me a computer with no OS, or with a non-Windows OS, that company would have to charge me for Windows anyway. If they didn't charge me for a copy of Windows that I didn't want, they would have to charge everyone else they sell a computer to the full retail price. That would make their Windows offering non-competetive. So if a manufacturer wants to sell any computers with Windows on them, they have to charge for Windows on all of them. That means that if I want to buy a Dell, I am going to be paying for Windows. There are no large manufacturers with 24x7 support, worldwide distribution, and enterprise-level support capabilities that will sell me a PC without charging me for Windows. === Kip Hawley is still an idiot. === Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link\|http://DocHope.com\|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats]. [link\|http://DocHope.com\|http://DocHope.com]
Post #276,535 by bepatient 12/23/06 1:21:51 PM Reply	You STILL ignore the point and I can do nothing but think that this is a purposeful tactic to continue this "debate" as an antagonist only. You cannot simply be this dense. my position was, and is, if there really is a market for no o/s boxes then the nature of business implies that someone will fill it And it has been pointed out by several, including me (not just Peter) that the market is NOT AT ALL free do this because of the coercive (AND illegal) contracts terms that MS places on the major manufacturers. They cannot respond to the market demand for a PC with no OS without MS driving them out of business in the market for PCs WITH an OS. How f**ing hard is that to understand??? The only people that can afford to do this are the ones with no volume deal with MS in the first place. MS cannot penalize them. personally, when I get a new desktop for home in 07, I will select the components I want individually and put it together, no one will force me to buy any OS More proof of you doing this to simply antagonize the board since your entire premise is based on your statement of "when someone gets a new computer they want to plug it in and use it". Apparently you are not the someone that you discuss in all subsequent posts. And the point about wanting to buy mainstream is something that YOU use as an argument in this post? Considering the former quote from you...makes it now laughable. However, it is a simple statement that you have YET TO ANSWER from my posts. Why, do you think, since there is absolutely no coersion in this marketplace (in your head anyway and nowhere else) , that these companies offer me a choice of motherboard, of processor, of video card, of net connectivity, of case, of monitor, of memory...yes, sir, every single component of their machine can be customized to my EXACT request...but I cannot get the machine without an OS and I have no offered choice of OS? Riddle me THAT...batman. Now consider. The addition of the OS requires additional processes at the manufacture that increase their costs to build. They offer me the box with no monitor, don't they? Kindof kills your entire "use it out of the box direct" argement doesn't it? And I remember distinctly that my company bought SCORES of machines from Compaq that had the OS loaded...and we had to contract with MS to pay for licenses for all those machines AGAIN because we had our own custom build. Do you think that my company..that bought nearly 10k of those machines wouldn't have tried to get that 50 a machine back if they could? Market has spoken my ass. There hasn't been a free market in the PC space since damned near the beginning. The reason its been ignored is because people thought that interoperability was more important. And for most..that is still important. The problem is that those who know...realize how BAD this has been for technology advancement on the software side of the house. Guess you are happy to have to reinstall your OS every year so your PC keeps working. It doesn't thrill me. So, I pay the MS tax because I have to (I actually READ the refund stories and realize it ain't worth the effort)...and strip windows and load an alternative OS. An alternative OS that has to be free to even have a chance to compete for mindshare. Yep, sounds like a free and unfettered marketplace to me. Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry._{Adrian Belew}*
Post #276,542 by CRConrad 12/23/06 3:22:57 PM Reply	Oh...So what, exactly, did you think we'd be discussing... Andrea Dear: I really didn't respond in this thread to have an MS discussion ...in this particular forum?!? [link\|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode\|Christian R. Conrad] (I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.) Ah, the Germans: Masters of Convoluted Simplification. — [link\|http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/?p=1603\|Jehovah]

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