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New Ooh boy
DOJ considers monopoly position 35-40%. You've shown a 5% placement of no OS machines and a 95% placement of MS.

Take another 10% for Apple (I'm a generous sort).

ANd you still ignore the fact that I would like a DELL machine with no OS. I can get it with all sorts of other options. Why not that one?

Disingenuous "r" us.
Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry.Adrian Belew
New Ooh
you want a Dell desktop/laptop w/ no OS
Dell doesn't sell 'em

if this is illegal, complain to the authorities
if they don't do anything, they must see it differently

I really didn't respond in this thread to have an MS discussion

my position was, and is, if there really is a market for no o/s boxes then
the nature of business implies that someone will fill it

apparently some have

only Pete W actually addressed this directly by saying that that company
would have to pay full price for Windows (which according to the vast majority in this thread they wouldn't need and if they're not buying then it wouldn't matter if MS charged them 10000% more than they charge Dell)

you call me disingenuous, when I've seen so many posts here slagging
the mainstream OEMs (mainly for quality and support issues) and yet in this thread everyone suddenly wants to buy one, but only ones that aren't for sale

personally, when I get a new desktop for home in 07, I will select the components I want individually and put it together, no one will force me to buy any OS

at work, we get all our boxes from Lenovo w/ XP which is what we use

A
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New I know you're missing this on purpose, but ...
only Pete W actually addressed this directly by saying that that company would have to pay full price for Windows (which according to the vast majority in this thread they wouldn't need and if they're not buying then it wouldn't matter if MS charged them 10000% more than they charge Dell)
No. If the company offered to sell me a computer with no OS, or with a non-Windows OS, that company would have to charge me for Windows anyway. If they didn't charge me for a copy of Windows that I didn't want, they would have to charge everyone else they sell a computer to the full retail price. That would make their Windows offering non-competetive.

So if a manufacturer wants to sell any computers with Windows on them, they have to charge for Windows on all of them. That means that if I want to buy a Dell, I am going to be paying for Windows. There are no large manufacturers with 24x7 support, worldwide distribution, and enterprise-level support capabilities that will sell me a PC without charging me for Windows.
===

Kip Hawley is still an idiot.

===

Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
New You STILL ignore the point
and I can do nothing but think that this is a purposeful tactic to continue this "debate" as an antagonist only.

You cannot simply be this dense.

my position was, and is, if there really is a market for no o/s boxes then
the nature of business implies that someone will fill it


And it has been pointed out by several, including me (not just Peter) that the market is NOT AT ALL free do this because of the coercive (AND illegal) contracts terms that MS places on the major manufacturers. They cannot respond to the market demand for a PC with no OS without MS driving them out of business in the market for PCs WITH an OS. How f***ing hard is that to understand??? The only people that can afford to do this are the ones with no volume deal with MS in the first place. MS cannot penalize them.

personally, when I get a new desktop for home in 07, I will select the components I want individually and put it together, no one will force me to buy any OS


More proof of you doing this to simply antagonize the board since your entire premise is based on your statement of "when someone gets a new computer they want to plug it in and use it". Apparently you are not the someone that you discuss in all subsequent posts.

And the point about wanting to buy mainstream is something that YOU use as an argument in this post? Considering the former quote from you...makes it now laughable.

However, it is a simple statement that you have YET TO ANSWER from my posts. Why, do you think, since there is absolutely no coersion in this marketplace (in your head anyway and nowhere else) , that these companies offer me a choice of motherboard, of processor, of video card, of net connectivity, of case, of monitor, of memory...yes, sir, every single component of their machine can be customized to my EXACT request...but I cannot get the machine without an OS and I have no offered choice of OS? Riddle me THAT...batman.

Now consider. The addition of the OS requires additional processes at the manufacture that increase their costs to build. They offer me the box with no monitor, don't they? Kindof kills your entire "use it out of the box direct" argement doesn't it?

And I remember distinctly that my company bought SCORES of machines from Compaq that had the OS loaded...and we had to contract with MS to pay for licenses for all those machines AGAIN because we had our own custom build. Do you think that my company..that bought nearly 10k of those machines wouldn't have tried to get that 50 a machine back if they could?

Market has spoken my ass. There hasn't been a free market in the PC space since damned near the beginning. The reason its been ignored is because people thought that interoperability was more important. And for most..that is still important. The problem is that those who know...realize how BAD this has been for technology advancement on the software side of the house. Guess you are happy to have to reinstall your OS every year so your PC keeps working. It doesn't thrill me. So, I pay the MS tax because I have to (I actually READ the refund stories and realize it ain't worth the effort)...and strip windows and load an alternative OS. An alternative OS that has to be free to even have a chance to compete for mindshare.

Yep, sounds like a free and unfettered marketplace to me.




Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry.Adrian Belew
New Oh...So what, exactly, *did* you think we'd be discussing...
Andrea Dear:
I really didn't respond in this thread to have an MS discussion
...in this particular forum?!?


   [link|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode|Christian R. Conrad]
(I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.)
Ah, the Germans: Masters of Convoluted Simplification. — [link|http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/?p=1603|Jehovah]
     French consumer group targets the Microsoft tax. - (a6l6e6x) - (80)
         French consumer group targets the "Microsoft tax". - (andread) - (79)
             Maybe you can - (tuberculosis)
             thats probably the most stupid remark you have ever uttered - (boxley) - (77)
                 Unfortunately, no, it isn't. - (CRConrad) - (76)
                     So Move to France - (andread) - (75)
                         so only white box builders should be allowed to not sell $MS -NT - (boxley) - (74)
                             Re: so only white box builders should be allowed to not sell - (andread) - (73)
                                 really? - (boxley)
                                 It most certainly is a question of allowed. - (Andrew Grygus) - (71)
                                     Re: It most certainly is a question of allowed. - (andread) - (70)
                                         well dell and gateway anyway, customer service sux -NT - (boxley)
                                         Hmm. - (Another Scott)
                                         It is to laugh . . . - (Andrew Grygus) - (3)
                                             Nit - (pwhysall) - (1)
                                                 Yea, PowerEdge - corrected. -NT - (Andrew Grygus)
                                             I have a Lenovo laptop - (crazy)
                                         You miss the point spectacularly. - (pwhysall) - (63)
                                             Most shills do. ;-) -NT - (n3jja) - (61)
                                                 Re: Most shills do. ;-) - (andread) - (60)
                                                     There are certainly ways to do that WITHOUT - (bepatient)
                                                     All PC buyers aren't the same. - (Another Scott) - (8)
                                                         Why on Earth would you think such a thing??? - (CRConrad) - (7)
                                                             Fanboy, maybe. Shill, no. - (Another Scott) - (6)
                                                                 Perhaps even a longterm MSFT stockholder. -NT - (a6l6e6x)
                                                                 Whew! For a while there, I thought I had the usage wrong... - (CRConrad) - (4)
                                                                     dunno crc shill/fanboy=prostitute/slut one gets paid to - (boxley)
                                                                     wrong - (andread) - (2)
                                                                         Uuuh... How, exactly, was that *not* logic? - (CRConrad) - (1)
                                                                             logic? - (andread)
                                                     I addressed your point directly, you ignored it, again - (boxley) - (1)
                                                         It's a lot harder, actually. - (pwhysall)
                                                     I addressed your point directly, you ignored it, again - (boxley)
                                                     And that means "Windows only" just how? - (Andrew Grygus) - (46)
                                                         Re: And that means "Windows only" just how? - (andread) - (45)
                                                             I'll bet companies that have to pay twice would like it. - (Another Scott)
                                                             The value of PCs without software? - (pwhysall) - (43)
                                                                 Re: The value of PCs without software? - (andread) - (42)
                                                                     You are still missing it - (bepatient) - (18)
                                                                         For values of "missing it" equal to "doesn't WANT to get it" - (CRConrad) - (14)
                                                                             I understand the mental block - (bepatient) - (11)
                                                                                 Bunk - (andread) - (10)
                                                                                     Bullpucky - (bepatient)
                                                                                     horsekabobs - (boxley) - (8)
                                                                                         Are you talking desktops or servers? - (lincoln) - (7)
                                                                                             Dell's schizophrenic regarding Linux. - (Another Scott) - (6)
                                                                                                 Last I heard - though that was a while back . . . - (Andrew Grygus) - (5)
                                                                                                     well, hear this - (andread) - (4)
                                                                                                         Please note: S-E-R-V-E-R - (Andrew Grygus) - (3)
                                                                                                             your words cited below - (andread) - (1)
                                                                                                                 That's not what was said. - (pwhysall)
                                                                                                             I can show you a desktop... - (pwhysall)
                                                                             For values of "Chuckles" equal to "doesn't get it" - (andread) - (1)
                                                                                 Chuckling my cheeks off. - (CRConrad)
                                                                         Re: You are still missing it - (andread) - (2)
                                                                             I didn't give you a car analogy - (bepatient) - (1)
                                                                                 I think he's just trying to be annoying - (Andrew Grygus)
                                                                     Re: The value of PCs without software? - (pwhysall) - (18)
                                                                         full retail? - (andread) - (1)
                                                                             Re: Business model - (hnick)
                                                                         Re: The value of PCs without software? - (Simon_Jester) - (15)
                                                                             Re: The value of PCs without software? - (pwhysall) - (14)
                                                                                 Wow.... - (Simon_Jester) - (13)
                                                                                     The refund is wrong. - (pwhysall) - (12)
                                                                                         a little googling - (andread) - (11)
                                                                                             Did ZD do a followup, hmmm? -NT - (Another Scott)
                                                                                             No pressure...of course not. - (Simon_Jester)
                                                                                             As a builder formerly listed as a "Microsoft Partner" - - (Andrew Grygus)
                                                                                             Re: a little googling ____ Not. So. Fast. there, fanboy - (Ashton) - (7)
                                                                                                 Ashton . . . you trying to overload the poor boy? - (Andrew Grygus)
                                                                                                 Re: a little googling - (andread) - (5)
                                                                                                     Ooh boy - (bepatient) - (4)
                                                                                                         Ooh - (andread) - (3)
                                                                                                             I know you're missing this on purpose, but ... - (drewk)
                                                                                                             You STILL ignore the point - (bepatient)
                                                                                                             Oh...So what, exactly, *did* you think we'd be discussing... - (CRConrad)
                                                                     Car analogy holds - (jbrabeck) - (3)
                                                                         Car analogy reeks - (andread) - (2)
                                                                             Car analogy works - (ubernostrum)
                                                                             Eh? - (pwhysall)
                                             That's not what he was aiming for -NT - (drewk)

I swear, you make people want to jump into a volcano.
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