Re: Most shills do. ;-)

Post #276,064 by andread 12/18/06 10:19:59 AM Reply	Re: Most shills do. ;-) none of the responses to my last post cared to address the real issue the PC buyer wants to plug the machine in and use it any barrier to that is not customer service or even logical if there was huge demand for some other arrangement someone would step up and sell that sort of box maybe Apple? (not) A btw, assuming I am a shill for MS, why on earth would I bother with this group Play I Some Music w/ Papa Andy Saturday 8 PM - 11 PM ET All Night Rewind 11 PM - 5 PM Reggae, African and Caribbean Music [link\|http://wxxe.org\|Tune In]
Post #276,065 by bepatient 12/18/06 10:36:40 AM Reply	There are certainly ways to do that WITHOUT excluding choice...like making it a pre-build option (in the case of Dell/GW)... making custom install disks that require the user to pay as registration...ie..CHOOSE what they want. I agree that you and many others think this is unnecessary and against consumer demands. Do you know WHY you have this expectation. Because you and the market have been conditioned by a monopoly that this is how its SUPPOSED to be. Which is crap. Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry._{Adrian Belew}
Post #276,066 by Another Scott 12/18/06 10:49:56 AM Reply	All PC buyers aren't the same. Andy writes: the PC buyer wants to plug the machine in and use it any barrier to that is not customer service or even logical Not all PC buyers are the same. <begin dreaded car analogy> When I bought my VW Jetta, the first one I looked at had [link\|http://www.onstar.com/us_english/jsp/explore/index.jsp\|OnStar]. I didn't want it. It didn't meet my needs and I didn't want to have to pay for it. My dealer was able to get a car for me that didn't have it, and I was happy. If MS sold cars, they would own 95% of the car market, and everyone would have to buy options they didn't want. </end dreaded car analogy> If a person or company wants buy a PC without Windows, why is it so difficult to do so? Why? Because Microsoft continues to exert undue influence on the industry. Not all PC buyers can presently just buy a PC and plug it in. Microsoft, for example, requires large corporations with Software Assurance to pay twice for Windows - once when they buy the machine, once for the licenses under SA. They can't just buy new PCs and deploy them - not without violating MS's license. And MS is restricting the versions of Windows Vista available under SA, except in "special cases", according to [link\|http://apcstart.com/node/4638\|this] story: APC: \ufffdWhat happens when a volume licensing customer requires a particular feature which is only available in the retail version? For example, a user wants to be able to make DVDs (Windows Vista\ufffds DVD Maker is not available in either of the business editions.)\ufffd Microsoft: \ufffdWe recognise that some enterprises may want the use of certain consumer-oriented features for certain unique settings, such as for conference rooms or for media-related labs, etc. Customers with SA agreements can take advantage of Windows Vista Ultimate to address these special cases. Non SA customers can purchase a PC with Windows Vista Ultimate pre-installed from their OEM, they can purchase retail licenses to upgrade existing machines, or they can look into one of the many third-party applications that will be part of the Windows Vista ecosystem to meet their needs. Because of the superior manageability and deployment functionality of Windows Vista Business and Windows Vista Enterprise, we recommend that organisations standardise on either of these versions of Windows Vista.\ufffd So I suppose it\ufffds not all bad news. As an organisation you do have to purchase Software Assurance to get the flexibility to use Vista Ultimate in those \ufffdunique settings\ufffd so you\ufffdre looking at an extra cost per unit there. Gee. It sounds like Microsoft is really interested in giving customers what they want, doesn't it? if there was huge demand for some other arrangement someone would step up and sell that sort of box maybe Apple? (not) If it's just customer demand that's driving these requirements, why is it that the requirements so often get in the way of what the customer whats to do? It's your repeated posting of things like this that only presents Microsoft's side that makes many here conclude that you're a shill. (I think you're not, BTW.) FWIW. Cheers, Scott.
Post #276,082 by CRConrad 12/18/06 4:14:10 PM Reply	Why on Earth would you think such a thing??? Scotto The Second writes: It's your repeated posting of things like this that only presents Microsoft's side that makes many here conclude that you're a shill. (I think you're not, BTW.) Why not?!? When the fuck has Andrea Dear ever behaved as anything but a shill? It's been looking like a duck, walking like a duck, and quacking like a duck for YEARS now... So how the fuck can ANYONE think it is anything BUT a fucking duck?!? Are the BOx and Gryge really the only ones here besides me who aren't freaking blind? Aahdun'geddi'. [link\|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode\|Christian R. Conrad] (I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.) Ah, the Germans: Masters of Convoluted Simplification. — [link\|http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/?p=1603\|Jehovah]
Post #276,084 by Another Scott 12/18/06 4:31:31 PM Reply	Fanboy, maybe. Shill, no. [link\|http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/shill\|Shill] versus [link\|http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=fanboy\|Fanboy]. I don't think Andy gets any monetary benefits from his MS-enthusiasm. MS doesn't need to pay its fans. I do think he is rather blind to many of MS's faults. :-) Cheers, Scott. (Who will admit to being an OS/2 fanboy in his younger days.)
Post #276,090 by a6l6e6x 12/18/06 5:35:45 PM Reply	Perhaps even a longterm MSFT stockholder. Alex When fascism comes to America, it'll be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross. -- Sinclair Lewis
Post #276,136 by CRConrad 12/19/06 11:55:20 AM Reply	Whew! For a while there, I thought I had the usage wrong... ...but then I actually read the definitions you linked to. From [link\|http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/shill\|Shill]: 2. a person who publicizes or praises something or someone for reasons of self-interest, personal profit, or friendship or loyalty. [Emphasis added] Of the [link\|http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=fanboy\|Fanboy definitions], I suppose this bit from the one by "Dr Know"() is appropriate: (n) Technocratic zealots; evangelicals of geekery. Characterized by irrational advocacy of a particular OS, console, company, or franchise.* Yup, that's what I thought, too... But, hey, isn't that pretty much exactly the same thing as the one for "Shill" above? So, in this (basket) case at least, AFAICS: Fanboy_{(Andrea Dear variant)} = Shill_{(Andrea Dear variant)} (): Posted March 8, 2005; currently at #6, but I suspect they may move around based on the "thumb-up" / "thumb-down" votes they receive. [link\|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode\|Christian R. Conrad]* (I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.) Ah, the Germans: Masters of Convoluted Simplification. — [link\|http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/?p=1603\|Jehovah]
Post #276,138 by boxley 12/19/06 12:15:49 PM Reply	dunno crc shill/fanboy=prostitute/slut one gets paid to fuck the other one likes to fuck. Not quite the same. thanx, bill Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 51 years. meep reach me at [link\|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net\|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net]
Post #276,284 by andread 12/21/06 9:47:33 AM Reply	wrong once again you prefer to hide behind your wall of (childish) name-calling perhaps you've been inoculated against logic A Play I Some Music w/ Papa Andy Saturday 8 PM - 11 PM ET All Night Rewind 11 PM - 5 PM Reggae, African and Caribbean Music [link\|http://wxxe.org\|Tune In]
Post #276,312 by CRConrad 12/21/06 2:34:06 PM Reply	Uuuh... How, exactly, was that not logic? I presented my reasoning, in its several steps: Present definition A, emphasise applicable parts; present definition B, extract one apparently relevant variant; demonstrate, by presenting them next to each other, how the salient parts seem so similar as to be pretty much equal: Q. E. Fucking D! You... Say, "wrong". Wow, colour me convinced by your unassailable proof-by-simple-allegation logic! [link\|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode\|Christian R. Conrad] (I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.) Ah, the Germans: Masters of Convoluted Simplification. — [link\|http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/?p=1603\|Jehovah]
Post #276,384 by andread 12/22/06 12:25:44 AM Reply	logic? all you did was cite the definition of a word the logic would come in with the connection of the term to me the way you do this is based on the your 'belief' that anyone who differs from your thought must be pathological this is mere assertion and has no logical content so spew some more f words, Giggles A Play I Some Music w/ Papa Andy Saturday 8 PM - 11 PM ET All Night Rewind 11 PM - 5 PM Reggae, African and Caribbean Music [link\|http://wxxe.org\|Tune In]
Post #276,069 by boxley 12/18/06 11:46:10 AM Reply	I addressed your point directly, you ignored it, again plug in a new retail windows based pc requires several reboots and is exactly as dificult to get to a usable state as a mac. Its not plug it in and use it immediately. thanx, bill Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 51 years. meep reach me at [link\|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net\|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net]
Post #276,072 by pwhysall 12/18/06 12:30:18 PM Reply	It's a lot harder, actually. Both experiences are fresh in my mind. Setting up a new Mac (either OOBE or reinstall) is this: Language Location Who you are No thanks to .mac No reboots. Quick run of the Migration Assistant[0] with the mini in Firewire Target Disk mode, wait a bit for stuff to be transferred, and job's a buck. Setting up Windows? Well, we've all been there. A lot. It's slow. It's painful. It's reboot-tastic. [0]Which actually works, in stark contrast to the corresponding wizard in Windows XP Peter [link\|http://www.no2id.net/\|Don't Let The Terrorists Win] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes! [link\|http://kevan.org/brain.cgi?pwhysall\|A better terminal emulator] [image\|http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h262/pwhysall/Misc/saveus.png\|0\|Darwinia\|\|]
Post #276,070 by boxley 12/18/06 11:46:13 AM Reply	I addressed your point directly, you ignored it, again plug in a new retail windows based pc requires several reboots and is exactly as dificult to get to a usable state as a mac. Its not plug it in and use it immediately. thanx, bill Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 51 years. meep reach me at [link\|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net\|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net]
Post #276,071 by Andrew Grygus 12/18/06 12:29:27 PM Reply	And that means "Windows only" just how? Some year ago one PC manufactureer anounced their PCs would be ready to go with either Windows or Be OS. Microsoft pointed out the fine print in their contract for Windows that said if any of their PCs could boot anything but Windows the contract was canceled and they would have to buy Windows retail. That is just plain flat out coersion. The truth is no major manufacturer can provide a "plug it in and go" computer with anything but Windows or a computer that offers a choice or Microsoft will put them out of business. The market is way too tight for any brand name manufacturer to accept a $100 increase in the retail price of their computer. There is absolutely no reason a Linux computer can't be even more "plug in and go" than a Windows one because there won't be two or three reboots and question and answer sessions over licensing and an activation step. You are either blind or you are a shill - or both. [link\|http://www.aaxnet.com\|AAx]
Post #276,088 by andread 12/18/06 5:07:48 PM Reply	Re: And that means "Windows only" just how? I don't believe I have mentioned Windows previously in this thread the original post said that the French group wanted to buy computers w/o software if as Box and Pete say, Macs are easier to use than Windows PCs out of the box I have no reason to doubt it and any onus would be on the OEMs not MS for this problem I bought a Dell laptop over the summer and was using it pretty quickly out of the box Since part of my job is setting up Windows PCs, I would say I'm used to any of the issues that others may find annoying -- certainly Dell could have added the last couple dozen updates to Windows but .... to return to the original point not one of the posts has demonstrated the value of PCs w/o software or suggested what the market for that would be seems like someone was supplying Wal-Mart w/ Linux PCs, did that go anywhere? or does anyone think the French consumer group will pressure Apple to sell its box without an OS as well A I get a chuckle out of all this "shill" talk it seems so illogical or even paranoid except for Chuckles' accusations which seem about one small step from knife-wielding psychosis, luckily the Atlantic is wide Play I Some Music w/ Papa Andy Saturday 8 PM - 11 PM ET All Night Rewind 11 PM - 5 PM Reggae, African and Caribbean Music [link\|http://wxxe.org\|Tune In]
Post #276,089 by Another Scott 12/18/06 5:30:08 PM Reply	I'll bet companies that have to pay twice would like it. not one of the posts has demonstrated the value of PCs w/o software or suggested what the market for that would be seems like someone was supplying Wal-Mart w/ Linux PCs, did that go anywhere? A [link\|http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=3762912\|Walmart] Microtel PC with Linspire preloaded. It's $348. A [link\|http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=3762908\n\|Walmart] Microtel PC with Xandros preloaded. It's $398. The cheapest (out of stock) Windows machine is $20 more than the cheapest Linspire machine and has much less memory, etc. It's clear that Windows costs more than Linux, and it's clear that companies who want Linux or who don't want to pay twice for Windows are not being served by most of the market. I don't think Walmart would be listing the Linux machines if there wasn't a market for them. "But you've just proved my point!" I hear you say. I don't think so. If the largest retailer in the world - a company which by definition serves the mass market - sees a place for Linux machines, then there must be an even more diverse market for customized PCs that have Ubuntu or RedHat or whatever, or no OS at all. The reason you don't see them as much is because of MS's OEM licensing agreements. Walmart's able to sell such machines because they're huge. Other PC suppliers aren't able to bargain the same way. "Well, companies should just buy their PCs from Walmart!" Walmart's business model isn't designed to address the needs of businesses. Their business model is all about low-price, consumer sales - not businesses. HTH. Cheers, Scott.
Post #276,092 by pwhysall 12/18/06 5:45:17 PM 12/18/06 5:50:48 PM Reply	The value of PCs without software? Well, not having to pay for an OS I neither want nor need (I have a boxed retail copy of XP Pro[0]), would be the value. Or, as I like to call it, "two hundred and seventy nine pounds". There's the value. Of course, I know that PC manufacturers don't pay retail[1]. That's cool. I'll settle for a box that's just eighty quid or so cheaper, then. Do you see it now? Sure there's a market. It's just that Microsoft is terrified of it, because it means it won't get its guaranteed pound of flesh per computer bought. (I have a theory that when Dell sell you a computer (i.e. a Precision or a PowerEdge) with Red Hat installed, they still had to buy Windows for that computer. No such statement will exist in the paperwork, of course, but I'll bet a pint that Dell's deal with MS causes them to pay a per-copy price that takes account of those non-Windows boxes. Nudge nudge wink wink etc) [0] Irony of ironies, it was a free gift for attending all my MSCE classes [1] And Apple don't pay anything at all. But then, Apple isn't a monopoly. And you can't buy a full standalone retail package of OS X anywhere, because it always comes preinstalled. Before whining about this, see the part about Apple not being a monopoly. Peter [link\|http://www.no2id.net/\|Don't Let The Terrorists Win] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes! [link\|http://kevan.org/brain.cgi?pwhysall\|A better terminal emulator] [image\|http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h262/pwhysall/Misc/saveus.png\|0\|Darwinia\|\|] Edited by pwhysall Dec. 18, 2006, 05:50:48 PM EST Expand All History
Post #276,132 by andread 12/19/06 10:50:53 AM Reply	Re: The value of PCs without software? so what you all are saying is: a vast MS conspiracy prevents PCs w/o an OS from being sold but PCs w/o an OS can be bought PCs w/ Linux can be bought but this isn't good enough so no Chinese, Taiwan, Korean, etc. company has jumped into this "market" even though you guys assert it exists what could MS do about it (or to them) we all enjoy howling at the moon and MS bashing is an important pastime here, but a little logic goes a long way A and that car analogy really stank you need to think about who would buy a car w/o a motor Play I Some Music w/ Papa Andy Saturday 8 PM - 11 PM ET All Night Rewind 11 PM - 5 PM Reggae, African and Caribbean Music [link\|http://wxxe.org\|Tune In]
Post #276,133 by bepatient 12/19/06 11:04:08 AM Reply	You are still missing it and its a conditioned response by you...conditioned by what you have been taught by the software provider is what you >need< and what you "want". You should NOT pay MS as part of your PC purchase to Dell unless you WANT to...and that is not currently the case. Why should I have to go to WalMart to buy a PC when I want a DELL (I think the logo is cool...or whatever). I can't do that...and MS contract with Dell has incredible penalties that coerce DELL into never offering hardware with anything other than MS windows. I can pick different sound components, different video components, different monitors, and different software bundles...but I cannot pick an alternative OS..even though they exist in the market. WHY IS THAT? OS/2..to beat the dead horse...was technically superior to Windows at every level..but these coercive contracts killed it before it was born. Only IBM could offer OS/2 on its machines because they were the only ones big enough to beat down MS...and they could also afford a premium price in the market...because they had the vast majority of corporate business. (And I actually support those who say Apple should undbundle as well to allow HW manufaturers to amke machines. There was a short time where this happened...and prices for those machines fell dramatically...but I am digressing.) Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry._{Adrian Belew}
Post #276,137 by CRConrad 12/19/06 12:01:22 PM Reply	For values of "missing it" equal to "doesn't WANT to get it" How the fucking fuck could that shill be "missing" something, when it's been fucking SPELLED OUT TO IT so many times? That's not "missing it", that's NOT WANTING to get it. Which, funnily enough, is exactly the behaviour you'd expect of a SHILL. But nooo, Andrea Dear isn't a shill, oooh nooo she isn't... Yeah, right. [link\|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode\|Christian R. Conrad] (I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.) Ah, the Germans: Masters of Convoluted Simplification. — [link\|http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/?p=1603\|Jehovah]
Post #276,139 by bepatient 12/19/06 12:17:14 PM Reply	I understand the mental block because it is one that is shared by many. The thought is that a pc is nothing without the OS and THE os is windows. That is a conditioned response..long since in place from the days of DOS. I don't equate that with being a shill..that is simply what MS has been feeding users from the very beginning. No choice is necessary, windows comes with, naturally. Brainwashing. The majority of the marketplace doesn't even KNOW their are other choices..choices that could work for them and at the same time save them money. My opinion is very plain...if, in order to compete, you have to give away your product..there is something fundamentally wrong in the market. The MS monopoly has become so pervasive that the market knows nothing else...and in this it is like the ATT of old. There are no alternatives, this is what you get. The difference is that ATT had infrastructure barriers. To compete you had to lay wire and build a network. Here..the solution is much simpler, there is not a huge barrier. The problem is and continues to be severe anticompetitive behavior of MS which dries up all funds to create commercial alternatives...forcing competitors to come from the generosity of others...and that generosity comes from the OSS community. Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry._{Adrian Belew}
Post #276,151 by andread 12/19/06 4:09:42 PM Reply	Bunk I doubt there are many out there who haven't seen those PC and Mac ads on the tube The "people" have made their choices business has made its choices you guys just don't like them A Play I Some Music w/ Papa Andy Saturday 8 PM - 11 PM ET All Night Rewind 11 PM - 5 PM Reggae, African and Caribbean Music [link\|http://wxxe.org\|Tune In]
Post #276,158 by bepatient 12/19/06 5:53:03 PM Reply	Bullpucky Businesses OFTEN had to pay MS tax twice..buying machines pre-loaded and then paying MS for the priveledge of loading a corporate windows build over top. Name me one manager that would CHOOSE that? Consumers NEVER HAD A CHOICE. Its been that way for so long that they never even knew there was one to be made. Starting to think that maybe the shill tag is starting to fit. It has nothing to do with me liking or disliking the choice. There was never a choice offered to like or dislike. Read that. NEVER. You completely ignored the fact that I can order from a half dozen processors, 3 or 4 different sound architectures, a half dozen monitors, with or without camera, with or without modem, with or without wireless...but I still have no choice regarding the OS..even though there are alternatives. While I was giving you the benefit of the doubt to now...you've proven that you are 1) beholden to MS or 2) beyond rational thought. Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry._{Adrian Belew}
Post #276,159 by boxley 12/19/06 5:59:16 PM Reply	horsekabobs I order dells and put redhat on them for the business, the boxes are pre-loaded with $MS. Thats is how we have to buy them. Do we like paying for windows? no. No choice since we want intel hardware with service contracts. thanx, bill Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 51 years. meep reach me at [link\|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net\|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net]
Post #276,222 by lincoln 12/20/06 2:46:56 PM Reply	Are you talking desktops or servers? Haven't been to their web site in years, but I've heard about them selling servers pre-loaded with RedHat on them. Don't know if there's a price differential between those units and ones with Windows on them. And I doubt that the invoice is detailed enough to show you what you're being billed for RedHat. lincoln "Chicago to my mind was the only place to be. ... I above all liked the city because it was filled with people all a-bustle, and the clatter of hooves and carriages, and with delivery wagons and drays and peddlers and the boom and clank of freight trains. And when those black clouds came sailing in from the west, pouring thunderstorms upon us so that you couldn't hear the cries or curses of humankind, I liked that best of all. Chicago could stand up to the worst God had to offer. I understood why it was built--a place for trade, of course, with railroads and ships and so on, but mostly to give all of us a magnitude of defiance that is not provided by one house on the plains. And the plains is where those storms come from." -- E.L. Doctorow Never apply a Star Trek solution to a Babylon 5 problem. I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a *Citizen* of the United States. [link\|mailto:golf_lover44@yahoo.com\|contact me]
Post #276,223 by Another Scott 12/20/06 3:05:24 PM Reply	Dell's schizophrenic regarding Linux. E.g. Dell Singapore lists [link\|http://www1.ap.dell.com/content/topics/topic.aspx/ap/topics/microsite/en/redhat?c=sg&l=en&s=bsd\|this] PowerEdge 1950 with RHEL installed. If you search for Linux at Dell.com you'll see a [link\|http://www.dell.com/content/products/productdetails.aspx/precn_390?c=us&l=en&s=bsd&cs=04\|Precision 390 Workstation] box with RHEL available, but if you go to Customize it, there doesn't seem to be any way to get anything other than Windows. It looks to me that one must have the patience of Job to get a consumer box with Linux from Dell. FWIW. Cheers, Scott.
Post #276,235 by Andrew Grygus 12/20/06 5:38:47 PM Reply	Last I heard - though that was a while back . . . . . they were not allowed to offer any other OS on any model that was available with Windows. If they offered Linux it had to be a different SKU (Stocking Unit) and Winodws could not be available for that model designation. That would make it imposible for them to offer Linux under customization, you'd have to know the model number (often not listed) for the Linux SKU. [link\|http://www.aaxnet.com\|AAx]
Post #276,283 by andread 12/21/06 9:44:01 AM Reply	well, hear this [link\|http://configure.us.dell.com/dellstore/config.aspx?c=us&cs=04&kc=6W300&l=en&oc=sc1435-min&s=bsd\|Dell server with choice of no o/s, 2 windows, 2 redhat or 2 suse] Hmmmm A Play I Some Music w/ Papa Andy Saturday 8 PM - 11 PM ET All Night Rewind 11 PM - 5 PM Reggae, African and Caribbean Music [link\|http://wxxe.org\|Tune In]
Post #276,285 by Andrew Grygus 12/21/06 9:48:27 AM Reply	Please note: S-E-R-V-E-R What have we been telling you all this time? Servers have DIFFERENT RULES. Just how damned thick is your skull - bone to the center? Do you actually comprehend anything you read? Show me a desktop SKU offering those choices. [link\|http://www.aaxnet.com\|AAx]
Post #276,286 by andread 12/21/06 9:54:30 AM Reply	your words cited below . they were not allowed to offer any other OS on any model that was available with Windows Play I Some Music w/ Papa Andy Saturday 8 PM - 11 PM ET All Night Rewind 11 PM - 5 PM Reggae, African and Caribbean Music [link\|http://wxxe.org\|Tune In]
Post #276,288 by pwhysall 12/21/06 10:24:25 AM 12/21/06 10:27:16 AM Reply	That's not what was said. Any configuration i.e. any SKU with Windows will not come with Linux and vikki verki. Peter [link\|http://www.no2id.net/\|Don't Let The Terrorists Win] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes! [link\|http://kevan.org/brain.cgi?pwhysall\|A better terminal emulator] [image\|http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h262/pwhysall/Misc/saveus.png\|0\|Darwinia\|\|] Edited by pwhysall Dec. 21, 2006, 10:27:16 AM EST Expand All History
Post #276,290 by pwhysall 12/21/06 10:48:18 AM Reply	I can show you a desktop... ...sort of. It's a workstation. Dell will sell you Linux on a Precision workstation. Interestingly, I've been dinking around with the UK and US configurators for Precision workstations and they say they support RHEL, but they don't actually have it as a selectable option when building your machine. Peter [link\|http://www.no2id.net/\|Don't Let The Terrorists Win] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes! [link\|http://kevan.org/brain.cgi?pwhysall\|A better terminal emulator] [image\|http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h262/pwhysall/Misc/saveus.png\|0\|Darwinia\|\|]
Post #276,152 by andread 12/19/06 4:13:48 PM Reply	For values of "Chuckles" equal to "doesn't get it" there are 924 registered users here almost all of them are likely Linux and/or Mac users when they have a choice anyway what would the value to MS of having a shill here be? and, in general, don't you think that pointless name-calling adds nothing to a discussion A Play I Some Music w/ Papa Andy Saturday 8 PM - 11 PM ET All Night Rewind 11 PM - 5 PM Reggae, African and Caribbean Music [link\|http://wxxe.org\|Tune In]
Post #276,195 by CRConrad 12/20/06 3:44:30 AM Reply	Chuckling my cheeks off. My nether ones, that is -- I'm laughing my arse off at this idiocy: what would the value to MS of having a shill here be? You know, I really can't see that either. So, what the fuck ARE you doing here? (Can it really be JUST .sig-spamming that silly little radio thing?) and, in general, don't you think that pointless name-calling adds nothing to a discussion Of course, exactly my point! (So what's with the silly "Chuckles" crap, Dear?) My pointing out what you are, OTOH, isn't pointless at all: At long last, it seems I've been able to raise the general awareness of our fellow posters here. And knowing whom you're dealing with, that can never be a bad thing, wouldn't you say? Chuckles to you, [link\|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode\|Christian R. Conrad] (I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.) Ah, the Germans: Masters of Convoluted Simplification. — [link\|http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/?p=1603\|Jehovah]
Post #276,148 by andread 12/19/06 4:02:00 PM Reply	Re: You are still missing it I find your argument really ridiculous You can't buy a Dell w/o an OS I can't buy a Cadillac with square wheels big deal A Play I Some Music w/ Papa Andy Saturday 8 PM - 11 PM ET All Night Rewind 11 PM - 5 PM Reggae, African and Caribbean Music [link\|http://wxxe.org\|Tune In]
Post #276,160 by bepatient 12/19/06 5:59:53 PM Reply	I didn't give you a car analogy so don't mess around with it on me. The fact that MS has the power to put Dell out of business and can thus force them to offer NO CHOICE of OS, even while they offer multiple choices on EVERY OTHER ASPECT of the machine should tell you something...unless, of course, you are voluntarily ignoring the reality of the situation...which I now believe you are. ----- And the dealer is ALLOWED to swap rims on the car, by the way...without penalty from the manufacturer on all other cars sold. Not so for Dell. Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry._{Adrian Belew}
Post #276,192 by Andrew Grygus 12/20/06 1:35:22 AM Reply	I think he's just trying to be annoying The issues are extremely clear - and we don't have to prove Microsoft has abused a monopoly, that was shown in court, upheld unanamously by the Court of Appeals en banc, and refused review by the Supreme Court. The current administration, in typical Republican worship of the extremely wealthy, allowed Microsoft to write it's own punishment. Interestingly they have not met the terms of the punishment they themselves wrote and the judge in charge has been getting a bit antsy. [link\|http://www.aaxnet.com\|AAx]
Post #276,134 by pwhysall 12/19/06 11:26:46 AM Reply	Re: The value of PCs without software? a vast MS ~~conspiracy~~contract prevents PCs w/o an OS from being sold There, that's better. PCs w/o an OS can be bought No, they can't - unless you build it yourself from bits. PCs w/ Linux can be bought I can't buy a mainstream Dell or HP with Linux on it, even though Linux runs just fine on Dimension desktops. this isn't good enough Exactly so. The rules are different for Microsoft because they are a monopoly. no Chinese, Taiwan, Korean, etc. company has jumped into this "market" They quite simply cannot, because MS will make it financially unviable for them to do so, should they want to sell PCs with Windows on too. even though you guys assert it exists Well, I'd buy one. There's a market. It's a market of one, but it's still a market. what could MS do about it (or to them) Make them pay FULL RETAIL. Are you really so dense as to not understand this? you need to think about who would buy a car w/o a motor Cars aren't computers, so I'll disregard this. Peter [link\|http://www.no2id.net/\|Don't Let The Terrorists Win] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes! [link\|http://kevan.org/brain.cgi?pwhysall\|A better terminal emulator] [image\|http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h262/pwhysall/Misc/saveus.png\|0\|Darwinia\|\|]
Post #276,149 by andread 12/19/06 4:03:50 PM Reply	full retail? if your business model had any validity they wouldn't need MS any more than GE needed General Candle or GM needed Consolidated buggy whip or is your model just BS A Play I Some Music w/ Papa Andy Saturday 8 PM - 11 PM ET All Night Rewind 11 PM - 5 PM Reggae, African and Caribbean Music [link\|http://wxxe.org\|Tune In]
Post #276,154 by hnick 12/19/06 4:41:26 PM Reply	Re: Business model I think you got the salient point by ricochet. If MS had a really superior OS, people would buy if of their own volition. At market price. They wouldn't have to be forced into it. It is my position (arguable) that MS does NOT have a really superior OS and thus they push their product out by making it almost free to PC manufacturers as long as there is no competition. If they allowed a choice, their options would be to produce a good OS (vista does NOT qualify, and XP was obviously produced by a copraphagy) or sell a LOT cheaper. They don't allow choice so now companies have to buy the same OS multiple times for the same machine. Individuals HAVE to buy the OS if they want a mainstream machine. There used to be laws about being able to apply that kind of pressure to the market. Neither of our opinions of the product have no bearing on the point. The point is abuse of a monopoly.
Post #276,208 by Simon_Jester 12/20/06 9:48:41 AM Reply	Re: The value of PCs without software? PCs w/o an OS can be bought No, they can't - unless you build it yourself from bits. Actually that not true. You can buy a PC built from www.monarchcomputers.com without any OS. PCs w/ Linux can be bought I can't buy a mainstream Dell or HP with Linux on it, even though Linux runs just fine on Dimension desktops. First you can buy Servers from Dell and HP without an OS, just not the consumer level electronics. (The market dictated that one, regardless of what Microsoft wanted to do. :-)) Second, isn't that Dell's and HP's fault? (And as Scott pointed out...aren't they doing poorly, they're paying the price, no?) Shrug. At this point, the issue is pretty much stupid. At one point this mattered as there was some serious competition at the desktop level (OS/2, BeOS)...but those days are gone. That doesn't mean I ignore what Microsoft did at that point however. You can say I hate them, but I refuse to give them a free pass on it. 2nd, it ignore the issues that are occuring now. Microsoft's new Vista licensing basically allowed it to charge higher prices if you're going to use their product with VMWare (or other virtualization software.) IMO, that is clearly anti-trust. (But very advantagous to Microsoft's Virtualization software business).
Post #276,210 by pwhysall 12/20/06 10:10:24 AM Reply	Re: The value of PCs without software? No, they can't - unless you build it yourself from bits. Actually that not true. You can buy a PC built from www.monarchcomputers.com without any OS. That's slightly disingenous. They're not new PCs - they're refurbs (and fairly low-end, crappy refurbs at that). Someone else has, at some point, used that computer to download monkey porn. No thanks. First you can buy Servers from Dell and HP without an OS, just not the consumer level electronics. (The market dictated that one, regardless of what Microsoft wanted to do. :-)) Second, isn't that Dell's and HP's fault? (And as Scott pointed out...aren't they doing poorly, they're paying the price, no?) You can buy servers and only servers. Also, you missed my point. Why should I pay for another copy of Windows XP when I have a completely legitimate copy right here, that's EXACTLY the same as the one I'd get to buy again? Shrug. At this point, the issue is pretty much stupid. At one point this mattered as there was some serious competition at the desktop level (OS/2, BeOS)...but those days are gone. coughMac OS Xcough (and BeOS was never serious competition for anything, anyway) That doesn't mean I ignore what Microsoft did at that point however. You can say I hate them, but I refuse to give them a free pass on it. Ar. 2nd, it ignore the issues that are occuring now. Microsoft's new Vista licensing basically allowed it to charge higher prices if you're going to use their product with VMWare (or other virtualization software.) IMO, that is clearly anti-trust. It'll be interesting to see what the new EULA terms in Vista actually mean once they've been through the lawyer mill. There's been a lot of armchair quarterbacking on this topic. (But very advantagous to Microsoft's Virtualization software business). Maybe, maybe not. The main problem for MS's VM software is that, compared to things like Parallels and VMWare, it's really very crap. Peter [link\|http://www.no2id.net/\|Don't Let The Terrorists Win] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes! [link\|http://kevan.org/brain.cgi?pwhysall\|A better terminal emulator] [image\|http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h262/pwhysall/Misc/saveus.png\|0\|Darwinia\|\|]
Post #276,214 by Simon_Jester 12/20/06 11:30:05 AM 12/20/06 11:44:26 AM Reply	Wow.... That's slightly disingenous. They're not new PCs - they're refurbs (and fairly low-end, crappy refurbs at that). Someone else has, at some point, used that computer to download monkey porn. No thanks. Wow....they changed their site...recently. That refurbished stuff is brand new. Well, that kills the custom system I was planning on buying from them. So much for their [link\|http://www.monarchcomputer.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=M&Category_Code=ULB\| Ultimate Linux System] You can buy servers and only servers. Also, you missed my point. Why should I pay for another copy of Windows XP when I have a completely legitimate copy right here, that's EXACTLY the same as the one I'd get to buy again? Ah, back to the Microsoft tax. This DOES tie back into the original post of this thread. Because the issue ISN'T whether or not you get buy a computer system without an OS. The question is whether or not you can get a REFUND from Microsoft (or the OEM) if you buy a System and DO NOT ACCEPT with their EULA (which they promise to do in their EULA). Frankly, if France forced that, it wouldn't matter if they sold systems with Windows or not. Edited by Simon_Jester Dec. 20, 2006, 11:40:52 AM EST Edited by Simon_Jester Dec. 20, 2006, 11:44:26 AM EST Expand All History
Post #276,215 by pwhysall 12/20/06 11:47:07 AM Reply	The refund is wrong. I shouldn't have to get a refund - and if we're being honest, not everyone who's asked for a refund has received it. I should have the option of not buying Windows with the computer in the first place - which is the fundamental point that Andy D seems hell-bent on ignoring. Peter [link\|http://www.no2id.net/\|Don't Let The Terrorists Win] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes! [link\|http://kevan.org/brain.cgi?pwhysall\|A better terminal emulator] [image\|http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h262/pwhysall/Misc/saveus.png\|0\|Darwinia\|\|]
Post #276,287 by andread 12/21/06 10:02:37 AM Reply	a little googling put in pc with no operating system first un-sponsored link [link\|http://www.misco.co.uk/categories/~1645~/No%20Operating%20System.htm\|http://www.misco.co....ting%20System.htm] the second link yielded this quote Several PC vendors contacted by ZDNet UK were reluctant to comment on the issues surrounding base systems. One, though, did say that they hadn't encountered any difficulties. "We've had no pressure from Microsoft, yet," said a representative from Chillblast, a UK PC vendor that sells some computers without operating systems. A Play I Some Music w/ Papa Andy Saturday 8 PM - 11 PM ET All Night Rewind 11 PM - 5 PM Reggae, African and Caribbean Music [link\|http://wxxe.org\|Tune In]
Post #276,289 by Another Scott 12/21/06 10:32:06 AM Reply	Did ZD do a followup, hmmm?
Post #276,311 by Simon_Jester 12/21/06 2:20:52 PM Reply	No pressure...of course not. Cost differences if Windows isn't the pre-loaded OS. [link\|http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/01/20/microsoft_gets_green_light/\|MDA/MDP] And pressure [link\|http://www.aaxnet.com/news/M010425.html\| on OEM's to find out who's requesting OS-less computers] Arguing that OS-less computer exist is one thing. Arguing that they're as cheap as other machines is something else. Arguing that there isn't any pressure - well, that one is laughable.
Post #276,313 by Andrew Grygus 12/21/06 2:38:18 PM Reply	As a builder formerly listed as a "Microsoft Partner" - . . I got letters from Microsoft asking me to send to them the names and addresses of customers who requested computers without an operating system. I posted one of those letters on the Internet and there was a big fuss, after which they stopped sending me letters like that - but they were definitely after any business buying computers without Windows - and probably still are. [link\|http://www.aaxnet.com\|AAx]
Post #276,403 by Ashton 12/22/06 3:19:41 AM Reply	Re: a little googling ____ Not. So. Fast. there, fanboy Try your naive lookup with ""s - (for under 28M hits) See the numbers fall for "pc with no operating system" _{_{...on down to 252.}} Your torture-mutilation of logic offends my sensibilities. Only in a nation whose Leadership is based upon the anti-logical, could this thread be deemed other than an intellectual embarrassment. Yes, two hundred fifty-two - a number which accords with many searches for items I knew to be veritably 'unique' == it is right Within That Ballpark. Note how many - just in the intro headers - open with phrases, These are all UPGRADE ONLY you cannot build a PC from parts & you cannot buy a PC with no operating system, then install any version of Microsoft Windows ... and Christ, their licence stops them selling PC's with NO operating system - remember the court case in Australia when someone tried to get a \ufffd100 refund on the ... and Washington Post explains why I give my stepdaughters Linux computers They can't even sell a PC with NO operating system. They used to, but then Microsoft told them that if they wanted to keep selling computers with windows ... community.linux.com/comments.pl?sid=33858&op=&threshold=0&commentsort=0&mode=thread&t... - 19k - Cached - Similar pages Etc. So then, as to your tissue of faux-naive assertions, including the implication that you actually "work in IT" -??- are you (still) asserting that: 1) You didn't know of "these pressures" thus, of: the entire history of your fav Corp? -OR- since you appear to rely exclusively upon a naked perverse 'logic' for all your jelloware processing 2) That you know of its history and you approve of its methods? (Thus will contrive any technicality, like: a handful, worldwide, of Exceptions to the general Rule of, Unavailablilty of Non-M$-loaded PCs: in an attempt to evade the ethical barbarism implicit - and made possible only via an illegal abuse-of-monopoly.) Because IF 2), THEN your brain is well and truly Redmond Conditioned - why, you'd have to be a 'Clear' (in another techno-religion) to imagine that your periodic quips ever rise to the merely disingenuous. Maybe you are acquainted with an avowed M$ Shill of an earlier venue? (EZBoard IIRC) - one 'Dale Ross' - who asserted, if it's legal it's ethical! (Not that the above abuses are even legal -- merely, it is that the current Administration does not enforce the conditions dictated by the punishment for that Guilty plea: a case wherein the logical is trumped - illegally - via incompetence (or purchase? as used to be called bribery) in applying the rule of law. So which is it: willfully uninformed or nakedly perverse? Mr. Logic-man.
Post #276,445 by Andrew Grygus 12/22/06 12:48:15 PM Reply	Ashton . . . you trying to overload the poor boy? It's clear he has difficulty comprehending single sentence statements with clear points and you spring one of your elaborate treatises on him? His circuits are going to fry if he tries to read this thing. Be kind, it's Christmas! [link\|http://www.aaxnet.com\|AAx]
Post #276,469 by andread 12/22/06 9:09:45 PM Reply	Re: a little googling it only takes one white crow to show that all crows are not black I didn't make up the list I googled the first site is selling a PC w/ no OS the second link discusses a company that sells PCs w/ no OS and says that may account for 5% of the market in the UK stop pontificating for a moment A Play I Some Music w/ Papa Andy Saturday 8 PM - 11 PM ET All Night Rewind 11 PM - 5 PM Reggae, African and Caribbean Music [link\|http://wxxe.org\|Tune In]
Post #276,475 by bepatient 12/22/06 9:55:32 PM Reply	Ooh boy DOJ considers monopoly position 35-40%. You've shown a 5% placement of no OS machines and a 95% placement of MS. Take another 10% for Apple (I'm a generous sort). ANd you still ignore the fact that I would like a DELL machine with no OS. I can get it with all sorts of other options. Why not that one? Disingenuous "r" us. Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry._{Adrian Belew}
Post #276,519 by andread 12/23/06 10:28:47 AM Reply	Ooh you want a Dell desktop/laptop w/ no OS Dell doesn't sell 'em if this is illegal, complain to the authorities if they don't do anything, they must see it differently I really didn't respond in this thread to have an MS discussion my position was, and is, if there really is a market for no o/s boxes then the nature of business implies that someone will fill it apparently some have only Pete W actually addressed this directly by saying that that company would have to pay full price for Windows (which according to the vast majority in this thread they wouldn't need and if they're not buying then it wouldn't matter if MS charged them 10000% more than they charge Dell) you call me disingenuous, when I've seen so many posts here slagging the mainstream OEMs (mainly for quality and support issues) and yet in this thread everyone suddenly wants to buy one, but only ones that aren't for sale personally, when I get a new desktop for home in 07, I will select the components I want individually and put it together, no one will force me to buy any OS at work, we get all our boxes from Lenovo w/ XP which is what we use A Play I Some Music w/ Papa Andy Saturday 8 PM - 11 PM ET All Night Rewind 11 PM - 5 PM Reggae, African and Caribbean Music [link\|http://wxxe.org\|Tune In]
Post #276,531 by drewk 12/23/06 1:02:46 PM Reply	I know you're missing this on purpose, but ... only Pete W actually addressed this directly by saying that that company would have to pay full price for Windows (which according to the vast majority in this thread they wouldn't need and if they're not buying then it wouldn't matter if MS charged them 10000% more than they charge Dell) No. If the company offered to sell me a computer with no OS, or with a non-Windows OS, that company would have to charge me for Windows anyway. If they didn't charge me for a copy of Windows that I didn't want, they would have to charge everyone else they sell a computer to the full retail price. That would make their Windows offering non-competetive. So if a manufacturer wants to sell any computers with Windows on them, they have to charge for Windows on all of them. That means that if I want to buy a Dell, I am going to be paying for Windows. There are no large manufacturers with 24x7 support, worldwide distribution, and enterprise-level support capabilities that will sell me a PC without charging me for Windows. === Kip Hawley is still an idiot. === Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link\|http://DocHope.com\|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats]. [link\|http://DocHope.com\|http://DocHope.com]
Post #276,535 by bepatient 12/23/06 1:21:51 PM Reply	You STILL ignore the point and I can do nothing but think that this is a purposeful tactic to continue this "debate" as an antagonist only. You cannot simply be this dense. my position was, and is, if there really is a market for no o/s boxes then the nature of business implies that someone will fill it And it has been pointed out by several, including me (not just Peter) that the market is NOT AT ALL free do this because of the coercive (AND illegal) contracts terms that MS places on the major manufacturers. They cannot respond to the market demand for a PC with no OS without MS driving them out of business in the market for PCs WITH an OS. How f**ing hard is that to understand??? The only people that can afford to do this are the ones with no volume deal with MS in the first place. MS cannot penalize them. personally, when I get a new desktop for home in 07, I will select the components I want individually and put it together, no one will force me to buy any OS More proof of you doing this to simply antagonize the board since your entire premise is based on your statement of "when someone gets a new computer they want to plug it in and use it". Apparently you are not the someone that you discuss in all subsequent posts. And the point about wanting to buy mainstream is something that YOU use as an argument in this post? Considering the former quote from you...makes it now laughable. However, it is a simple statement that you have YET TO ANSWER from my posts. Why, do you think, since there is absolutely no coersion in this marketplace (in your head anyway and nowhere else) , that these companies offer me a choice of motherboard, of processor, of video card, of net connectivity, of case, of monitor, of memory...yes, sir, every single component of their machine can be customized to my EXACT request...but I cannot get the machine without an OS and I have no offered choice of OS? Riddle me THAT...batman. Now consider. The addition of the OS requires additional processes at the manufacture that increase their costs to build. They offer me the box with no monitor, don't they? Kindof kills your entire "use it out of the box direct" argement doesn't it? And I remember distinctly that my company bought SCORES of machines from Compaq that had the OS loaded...and we had to contract with MS to pay for licenses for all those machines AGAIN because we had our own custom build. Do you think that my company..that bought nearly 10k of those machines wouldn't have tried to get that 50 a machine back if they could? Market has spoken my ass. There hasn't been a free market in the PC space since damned near the beginning. The reason its been ignored is because people thought that interoperability was more important. And for most..that is still important. The problem is that those who know...realize how BAD this has been for technology advancement on the software side of the house. Guess you are happy to have to reinstall your OS every year so your PC keeps working. It doesn't thrill me. So, I pay the MS tax because I have to (I actually READ the refund stories and realize it ain't worth the effort)...and strip windows and load an alternative OS. An alternative OS that has to be free to even have a chance to compete for mindshare. Yep, sounds like a free and unfettered marketplace to me. Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry._{Adrian Belew}*
Post #276,542 by CRConrad 12/23/06 3:22:57 PM Reply	Oh...So what, exactly, did you think we'd be discussing... Andrea Dear: I really didn't respond in this thread to have an MS discussion ...in this particular forum?!? [link\|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode\|Christian R. Conrad] (I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.) Ah, the Germans: Masters of Convoluted Simplification. — [link\|http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/?p=1603\|Jehovah]
Post #276,143 by jbrabeck 12/19/06 2:23:48 PM Reply	Car analogy holds You can buy a car with a choice of motors. And before you jump on it, I know you cannot by a Ford with a Chevy motor, etc. A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort. (Herm Albright)
Post #276,153 by andread 12/19/06 4:15:45 PM Reply	Car analogy reeks you can buy a Dell with XP Home, XP Pro or XP Media Center when Vista comes out you will have even more flavors I bet this does nothing for you A Play I Some Music w/ Papa Andy Saturday 8 PM - 11 PM ET All Night Rewind 11 PM - 5 PM Reggae, African and Caribbean Music [link\|http://wxxe.org\|Tune In]
Post #276,155 by ubernostrum 12/19/06 4:58:52 PM Reply	Car analogy works Henry Ford: "You can have any color you want, so long as it's black." \r\n\r\n Bill Gates: "You can have any operating system you want, so long as it's Windows." --\r\nYou cooin' with my bird?
Post #276,193 by pwhysall 12/20/06 2:18:01 AM Reply	Eh? Is that Apple Windows Vista, and Ubuntu XP Home? I bet you're looking forward to BeOS Home Premium edition, right? Flavours of Windows are just that. It's all the same product. Peter [link\|http://www.no2id.net/\|Don't Let The Terrorists Win] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes! [link\|http://kevan.org/brain.cgi?pwhysall\|A better terminal emulator] [image\|http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h262/pwhysall/Misc/saveus.png\|0\|Darwinia\|\|]

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