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New NAE report on the impact of offshoring
[link|http://www.nae.edu/NAE/bridgecom.nsf/weblinks/NAEW-6GEK5J?OpenDocument|Impacts and Trends of Offshoring Engineering Tasks and Jobs]:

Job Displacement
Some U.S. workers will lose their jobs as their work is shifted to overseas locations. In July, for example, Wachovia Corporation announced plans to move many of its information technology (IT) jobs to India and told its 3,000 U.S. IT workers to prepare for lay-offs. The assumption is that these about-to-be displaced workers will be reemployed rapidly, and at substantially the same wages, as they "adjust," as economists say, to structural changes in the economy.

In reality, the adjustment process\ufffdworkers seeking and finding opportunities at other companies, in other geographic regions, and/or in other occupations\ufffdis difficult. The data on reemployment outcomes are limited, but we can get an indication from the Bureau of Labor Statistics Displaced Workers Survey (2004). The survey shows that, of workers who were displaced between 2001 and 2003, 35 percent were still unemployed in January 2004, and, of the 65 percent who were employed, only 43 percent earned as much as they did before displacement. Thus, the empirical data show that displaced workers are not reemployed rapidly (one in three remains unemployed) or at the same or higher wages (three in five took pay cuts).

These outcomes are largely consistent with results of surveys of displaced workers conducted since 1979. Significant numbers of displaced workers are likely to remain unemployed for extended periods of time, and many of those who find work take substantial pay cuts.

Macroeconomic job creation is an important factor in the rate and quality of reemployment. If many new jobs are being created, a worker's chances of successful reemployment increase. Unfortunately, levels of job creation in the most recent economic expansion of the U.S. economy have been unusually low. Although most macroeconomic indicators, such as robust expansion of the gross domestic product (GDP), have been favorable, job creation has been far weaker than during any other recent recovery from recession.

There are a few good explanations for why the economic expansion has not generated jobs up to historical norms. In the 44 months since the recession ended in November 2001, the economy has created 2.907 million new jobs, or an average of 793,000 jobs per year. Job creation for the 44 months after the previous recession, which ended in July 1991, was 8.575 million jobs, an average of 2.339 million per year. Just to keep up with new entrants in the labor force from demographic changes, the economy must create about 1.8 million jobs per year. Therefore, adjustment is more difficult than usual for displaced workers trying to find employment in their own or other occupations.

[...]

Mix of U.S. Occupations
The second effect of offshoring predicted by economists is a change in the mix of U.S. occupations, as some jobs migrate to more efficient (lower cost) overseas locations. As some sectors are lost, the United States will specialize in sectors in which it has a comparative advantage. However, there is no guarantee that the new mix of U.S. occupations will be better. In fact, economists cannot predict what types of new jobs will be created. This is a key policy question that no one can answer at this point. It is also a practical question. At every IEEE meeting I attend, I am invariably asked, "What new jobs should I be training for? What new skill sets will I need?"

Educators are grappling with the same questions. Engineering educators want to adjust curricula to help immunize their students against offshoring. But because most companies are reluctant to reveal their plans for offshoring, and because the government is not collecting data, we are all left to speculate about what kinds of jobs will go and what kinds will stay.

If the United States relinquishes many engineering and technology jobs, will we be able to replace them with better jobs? If the replacements are nontechnology jobs, how will that affect our ability to drive technological innovation? Conventional economic theories do not explicitly account for the impacts of offshoring on technological innovation and national security.

[...]

Observable Trends in Offshoring
The types of jobs moving offshore do not follow a simple pattern, such as tasks requiring lower education levels moving offshore and higher level tasks remaining in the United States. Clearly, at least some high-level engineering design tasks are being moved offshore, and the primary driver is lower wages. Many top technology firms, such as Microsoft, General Electric, Google, and others, are building research and development centers in low-cost countries, and job openings posted on the websites of technology companies indicate that overseas engineering hires often require advanced degrees and experience. And the trend is not limited to established or mature companies. Many venture capital firms now require that the start-up firms they fund have offshoring plans.

IT services is the first-mover sector in the current, nonmanufacturing wave of offshoring. Thus, IT may be an indicator of things to come for other sectors. Because many of the larger IT firms are publicly traded, we can understand how offshoring is unfolding in IT services by examining their financial reports. Table 1 shows comparative basic financial data for the largest IT services firms with traditional business models and for firms that started with an offshore outsourcing model. As you can see from the table, two of the major offshore outsourcing companies, Infosys and Wipro (both based in India), have higher market valuations than their U.S.-based competitors, Electronic Data Systems (EDS), Computer Sciences Corporation (CSC), and Affiliated Computer Services (ACS). In 2004, for example, EDS had $21 billion in revenue and a $10.3 billion market valuation; Infosys, with only $1.6 billion in sales, had a $20.5 billion market valuation. In other words, Infosys has twice the market capitalization of EDS with one-twelfth the sales.

[...]

The key difference between the new and old debates on competitiveness is that workers today are much more likely than companies to be adversely affected. This difference means that the practical and politically acceptable solutions that were used in the past will not work this time, and I suspect this will make it much more difficult to move forward. Many companies will be able to adapt to the new competitiveness challenge by substituting foreign for U.S. labor. Thus, they may succeed against their competition, but without U.S. workers.

The current competitiveness challenge has companies pitting U.S. workers against foreign workers, and companies are taking the latest technology and capital to the lowest cost labor, thereby eliminating a traditional advantage for U.S. engineers. This creates a practical problem because most of our established policy mechanisms are designed primarily to help companies. For example, increased government spending on R&D may lead to breakthroughs in nanotechnology in the United States, but the bulk of the jobs created from the design, development, and production of the resultant products may be overseas, as companies quickly or virtually transfer the latest tools, technologies, and techniques to low-cost overseas engineers.

Therefore, policy responses proposed by some business groups, such as doubling the number of U.S. engineering graduates, are not likely to be effective unless they are accompanied by substantive changes in engineering education to provide different skills than those of foreign engineers. We need different, not more, scientists and engineers. Achieving this will be much more difficult than most people realize, but it is time we begin to talk about the best ways to respond to offshoring.


Emphasis added.

A thoughtful piece. I wonder if anyone in Congress and the Administration is listening.

It's an article that's part of [link|http://www.nae.edu/nae/bridgecom.nsf?OpenDatabase|The Bridge] - a study by the National Academy of Engineering.

Cheers,
Scott.
New The report seems to have nailed one aspect of the problem
very well. Current policy is oriented towards companies, not workers, so the companies are taking the money and giving it to the cheapest workers, and they aren't american.

A very good reason to end corporate welfare. Not that that's going to happen with the current crop. It's going to take a major breakdown of economic and social order before things change, I think.
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton                            jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca]                   [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada               [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
New ~9 years before that breakdown is likely
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
New Certainly hope that's a lousy estimate,
and that you've missed a subtle series ~~ 3,7,13, 17, 3210 ...

Watching even more of this day-by-day tawdry psychic-death as, since the rise of the Know-nothings -- in SLO-MO! -- evokes the unSpeakable.

{UGH}


New 15 years after the peak
In countries with economic dominance like ours in the last 400 years, 15 years after the peak saw civil war in 2, and saw signs of it in the third (interrupted by WW I). Placing our peak at 2000, that suggests that somewhere around 2015 we may have an "interesting" year.

Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
New the information age is over
information is now commoditized with no special knowledge needed to diseminate same. Gronk now has the ability to serve up the same stuff as Nook by simply getting a comms line and pricing his access a frog hair lower.
People still dont realize this so a ton of cash and profits can still be made by certain people but the wave is over.
Next wave is consolidation of decentralization. The ability to deliver just in time grenades, fresh milk porn, cornflakes and rebar with no advance notice, timely and priced cheaper than the next guy is where the serious cash will be. Ebay is an early form of this.
The new guy will be like taipans and traders of old with the advantage of airconditioning and subcontracting violence, strikes and elimination of rivals. The arms market is also a forerunner of this. It used to be practiced by semi legit guys selling to papered neer do wells, now with the profusion of rogue states with no dicernable big anti US dogs to carefully balance power it is all up for grabs.Russia recognises this and Putin is doing well acting as a proxy for the old USSR.
thanx,
bill


Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 50 years. meep
New Rereading that book now.
New Nasscom - 10% - 20% India Wage Hikes Anually
[link|http://cwflyris.computerworld.com/t/273175/653133/7707/0/|* Q&A: Nasscom's Kiran Karnik On India Wage Hikes, Talent-pool Shortage]


Not all is happy in India-land either. Now the Indian outsourcing locations are outsourcing. This is more about finding the cheapest person on the planet who says they can do the job, rather than looking for expertise in the problem domain.

Hopefully, the lack of project management in key areas will be a sign that, while the technology "can" be done anywhere, perhaps it shouldn't be.

Also, I'm hoping there will be enough overseas failures that C-types will beging to realize that they need to be a little more careful about what they ask for. Perhaps the cheapest person who "says" they can do the job is not the best outsourcing choice.

Let's go from a race to the bottom (lowest wages, lowest cost) to a race to the best. BTW, many American companies (and management) clearly aren't the best either. Just ask anyone who worked for Kenneth Lay or Bernie Ebbers. It's why my next auto choice is more likely to be a Honda or Toyota than a Ford or Chevy. I just replaced one Windstar with a CR-V and the Taurus will likely be replaced with another CR-V.
Expand Edited by gdaustin Jan. 31, 2006, 10:01:56 PM EST
Expand Edited by gdaustin Jan. 31, 2006, 10:04:30 PM EST
New well a co-worker from that part of the globe
rents here but buys housing there. He states that 1k a month house payment in India buys a house that doubles in value every 3 years.
thanx,
bill
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 50 years. meep
New I had a friend just experience that
The towel boy.
Got screwed by Indian outsourcing of a project
Hopefully he'll learn.
If it doesn't cost him his job.
New Toyota doesn't outsource much
e.g. while GM and Ford were expanding outsoucing, Toyota has kept much more of the production in house, even though Toyota pays its workers substantially more (about double IIRC) than a typical tier one supplier does.

But, they make up the difference with improved manufacturing techniques (the Autoweek article gave some specifics). I suspect Toyota gets better quality that way, too.

OTOH, both Toyota and Honda need to hire some good designers; their cars range from boring to ugly (with a couple exceptions). At least Toyota seems to be trying (e.g. new IS350 is much improved over old IS300).

--Tony
New Their designers are plenty good for me
I don't care what it looks like on the outside. I care that it doesn't break down on the inside.

Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
New If I still drove, I would second that.
Why not, I'll do so anyway. Seconded.
-----------------------------------------

NOTICE: Due to Presidential Executive Orders, the National Security Agency may have read this email without warning, warrant, or notice, and certainly without probable cause. They may do this without any judicial or legislative oversight. You have no recourse nor protection save to call for the impeachment of the current President.

-Put it on all your emails
New Quality vs. Cheap Price
I'm just sick of the "Race to the Bottom" WalMart mentality.

In fact, my wife doesn't even shop there anymore, chosing Target instead. I would rather pay a few pennies more per product and get better quality and quantity.

In terms of cost, when we take the time to build the right product, the right software, the right solution, it actually costs less in later support.

When will it end? When we stop shopping at Wal Mart.

Glen
New Ah, so it's YOUR fault the Toyota Camry exists! :-)
Two out of three people wonder where the other one is.
New Not mine alone
You don't become the most popular car in America because just one person likes you.

It may well be that a lot of people think like I do though.

Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
New Camry isn't ugly, just generic
BTW, the 2007 Camry is re-styled and has, they claim, a better interior.
Judge for yourself at [link|http://www.autoweek.com/files/specials/2006_detroit/toyota/camry/pages/01.htm|http://www.autoweek....amry/pages/01.htm]

More car design talk
[link|http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060130/FREE/60119002/1051|http://www.autoweek....REE/60119002/1051]

If I were in the market for a new car now, I think I'd prefer the Mazda 6 hatchback over the Camry (unlike most Americans, I love hatchbacks, and the Mazda 6 is a pretty nice looking one).

--Tony
New If you get a Mazda6, get the MPS.
It still looks a bit nanna, but 0-100km/h in 6.6 seconds isn't to be sneezed at. The all-wheel drive can't hurt either.
Two out of three people wonder where the other one is.
New I'll believe it after I sit in it
You'd be amazed at how many cars do not comfortably sit a 6'3" person behind the steering wheel.

A Camry is comfortable. Amazingly enough, the Corolla is almost comfortable. By contrast sitting in my co-worker's BMW sucks.

Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
New sentra would be okay but my rio would be a chore
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 50 years. meep
New It's all about the seats.
Fords are usually OK, with the exception of the Fuckus. Most Jap econoboxes are also OK.

Volvos, Saabs and the like can be made accommodating, and I've never had a problem in a German car (I drive a BMW - a compact, no less!).

But I need to tilt the seat. If I can't do that, Mr Comfy Driving Position isn't going to happen. If I can do that, I can get comfy in almost anything.

At six three, you're really only going to struggle in a roadster, such as an MX-5 or an Elise. I'm a bit taller than you, Ben, and I can get settled behind the wheel of just about anything, as long as I can tilt the seat.

Reach/rake adjustment on the wheel is also nice, but hardly essential (unless you have truly freakish legs).


Peter
[link|http://www.no2id.net/|Don't Let The Terrorists Win]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
New Just spent today as a passenger in a Lexus
Very nice.
New My Dad bought an LS 430.
He's the one who is very sensitive to noise. He wanted as quiet a car as possible.

The LS 430 is pretty nice, but I have to agree with [link|http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/12/29/AR2005122901017.html|Warren] that it's not as far ahead of the competition as one would think. They're resting on their laurels a bit too much, IMO.

Cheers,
Scott.
(Who has only ridden in it, in the back, a couple of times.)
New I was in the front seat
I considered offering the other passenger to swap on the ride back - 1.5 hour trip.
But being the selfish bastard that I am, I thought better of it.
On the other hand, the second he got it (he was behind me), I moved my seat up as far as possible to make sure he had enough leg room.
He is both taller and wider than me, by far, and he did not complain about the seating.
Might be the back seat is better for him due to his width.

Note: Part of out trip was to Cabela's:
[link|http://www.cabelas.com/|http://www.cabelas.com/]

This place is AMAZING.

Combination sports outfitter, tourist gift shop, natural history museum, gun museum, aquarium, and restaurant.

One of our print plants is across the street from it.
New Toyota works without tilting the seat
I didn't find an option to tilt the seat on my co-worker's BMW.

Besides you may be taller than me, but not by very much.

Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
New I tilt the seat in everything I can.
Legs up, back back.
I drive / ride as if I was in a rocket ship.
And I'm only 5'7".

New You're probably a lethal danger to everyone else on the road
Sit up straight like your mother taught you, and you might:

A) Be able to see something beyond the bonnet ("hood") and the A-pillars (i.e, the posts to each side of the windscreen ["windshield"]).

B) Have leverage to use your arms more decisively, thus be able to turn the wheel quicker and farther in an emergeny.

C) Be less likely to fall asleep behind the wheel.


But, hey, if lying down comfortably is more important to you than being a responsible driver, then by all means carry on.


   [link|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode|Christian R. Conrad]
(I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.)
Yes Mr. Garrison, genetic engineering lets us correct God's horrible, horrible mistakes, like German people. - [link|http://maxpages.com/southpark2k/Episode_105|Mr. Hat]
New Maybe
The only IWeTheyer that has driven with me was Ben.
Hey Ben, any comments?
New Your driving was surprisingly sane
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
New You'd have a coronary seeing Chicago drivers.
(Caveat - this was in the early 1980s.)

The "coolest" drivers lean back and to the right (toward the passenger). Their eyes just barely clear the dash. It's important to be nearly invisible.

Or something.

Cheers,
Scott.
(Who doesn't drive that way.)
New What was old is new again...
You got it pegged, Scott.
jb4
"Every Repbulican who wants to defend Bush on [the expansion of Presidential powers], should be forced to say, 'I wouldn't hesitate to see President Hillary Rodham Clinton have the same authority'."
&mdash an unidentified letter writer to Newsweek on the expansion of executive powers under the Bush administration
New those are only the "South Siders"
and I don't mean the "South Side Irish" if you know what I mean...
lincoln

"Chicago to my mind was the only place to be. ... I above all liked the city because it was filled with people all a-bustle, and the clatter of hooves and carriages, and with delivery wagons and drays and peddlers and the boom and clank of freight trains. And when those black clouds came sailing in from the west, pouring thunderstorms upon us so that you couldn't hear the cries or curses of humankind, I liked that best of all. Chicago could stand up to the worst God had to offer. I understood why it was built--a place for trade, of course, with railroads and ships and so on, but mostly to give all of us a magnitude of defiance that is not provided by one house on the plains. And the plains is where those storms come from." -- E.L. Doctorow


Never apply a Star Trek solution to a Babylon 5 problem.


I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the United States.


[link|mailto:bconnors@ev1.net|contact me]
New What about Pilsen, Little Village, Logan Square...
...Humbolt Park, and even Uptown?
jb4
"Every Repbulican who wants to defend Bush on [the expansion of Presidential powers], should be forced to say, 'I wouldn't hesitate to see President Hillary Rodham Clinton have the same authority'."
&mdash an unidentified letter writer to Newsweek on the expansion of executive powers under the Bush administration
New you are short torso, he is longish
meaning centering in the seat is easier for him than yo\ufffd. Your legs appeared (thru beer bottle lenses) to be considerably longer than his.
hth
bill
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 50 years. meep
New Thank you for figuring out why I have more of a problem
I think you're exactly right. An amusing comparison. I'm 6'3". My wife is about 5'6". Our legs are almost exactly the same length!

My problem in a BMW is that my head is crunched against the ceiling. If my torso is longer, that would explain why it is an issue for me but not for him.

The next problem that I get into is that leaning my seat back to get some head room won't work unless I scoot the seat forward so that my arms reach the steering wheel. At this point my knees wind up hitting the steering wheel. (Assuming that I could get enough lean/scoot to make it work at all.)

It is ironic that having proportionately shorter legs make knees hitting the steering wheel a big problem for me, but that's what happens.

I'm fine in Toyotas. (Though I wind up appreciating the fact that in California we scatter lights around so that there is almost always one that's fairly low that I can stare at. The traditional single light in the middle of the intersection is not in view unless I lean forward.) I'm fine in most mid-sized and bigger cars.

I'm emphatically not fine in my co-worker's BMW.

Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
New Honda Already Has - IMO
Here's what we bought last Spring. Not your boring old Honda CR-V. Ours is stylin'.

[link|http://automobiles.honda.com/models/model_overview.asp?ModelName=CR%2DV|2006 Honda CR-V]

And I like the Interior even better.

Glen

New It's still ugly
although a bit better IMNSHO. Although nothing else in their lineup compares to the Ridgeline for fuglyness (heck, it's worse than the original Chevy Avalanche, although not quite in the category of the Aztek or Fiat Multipla), not even the Element.

Honda also doesn't like more cylinders, e.g. even Toyota is sticking a V-6 in their cute-ute, Acura doesn't have any V-6's, and the Ridgeline is V-6 only.

Toyota will soon become the world's largest car maker. If they can get their styling act together, they'll be really really scary...to their competitors. (I'm not a Toyota fan, either; I've got an old but trusty Nissan and a new but so far very good Mazda.)

--Tony

New Being a Yank, you are allowed to be wrong on these things.
Luckily, 'coz being a Yank, you are of course bound to be wrong on matters aestethic.


   [link|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode|Christian R. Conrad]
(I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.)
Yes Mr. Garrison, genetic engineering lets us correct God's horrible, horrible mistakes, like German people. - [link|http://maxpages.com/southpark2k/Episode_105|Mr. Hat]
New Right, I'm not an arrogant euro-weenie
but I appreciate good style, wherever it comes from. In cars, the Euros do some very nice stuff (especially at the high end, with exceptions such as the Porsche Cayenne), but they also do some of the ugliest cars in the world, such as the Multipla.

--Tony
New ICLRPD: Right, I'm not an arrogant euro-weenie (new thread)
Created as new thread #243293 titled [link|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=243293|ICLRPD: Right, I'm not an arrogant euro-weenie]
--
Steve
[link|http://www.ubuntulinux.org|Ubuntu]
New coming from a bloody finn! what cheek!
[link|http://www.finnishdesign.fi/muotoilija?id=965916|http://www.finnishde...toilija?id=965916] so you lot are responsible for the giant lego thing's for shame, sing 10 choruses of the monty python finland song.
thanx,
bill
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 50 years. meep
New Finn my arse.
He's a misplaced kraut.


Peter
[link|http://www.no2id.net/|Don't Let The Terrorists Win]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
New Is that "misplaced" as in "lost"?
Because no one would "find" themselves in Finland (except perhaps for the 2 months and three weeks when the sun is above the horizon...).
jb4
"Every Repbulican who wants to defend Bush on [the expansion of Presidential powers], should be forced to say, 'I wouldn't hesitate to see President Hillary Rodham Clinton have the same authority'."
&mdash an unidentified letter writer to Newsweek on the expansion of executive powers under the Bush administration
     NAE report on the impact of offshoring - (Another Scott) - (42)
         The report seems to have nailed one aspect of the problem - (jake123) - (5)
             ~9 years before that breakdown is likely -NT - (ben_tilly) - (4)
                 Certainly hope that's a lousy estimate, - (Ashton) - (2)
                     15 years after the peak - (ben_tilly) - (1)
                         the information age is over - (boxley)
                 Rereading that book now. -NT - (inthane-chan)
         Nasscom - 10% - 20% India Wage Hikes Anually - (gdaustin) - (35)
             well a co-worker from that part of the globe - (boxley)
             I had a friend just experience that - (broomberg)
             Toyota doesn't outsource much - (tonytib) - (32)
                 Their designers are plenty good for me - (ben_tilly) - (23)
                     If I still drove, I would second that. - (Silverlock)
                     Quality vs. Cheap Price - (gdaustin)
                     Ah, so it's YOUR fault the Toyota Camry exists! :-) -NT - (Meerkat) - (20)
                         Not mine alone - (ben_tilly) - (19)
                             Camry isn't ugly, just generic - (tonytib) - (18)
                                 If you get a Mazda6, get the MPS. - (Meerkat)
                                 I'll believe it after I sit in it - (ben_tilly) - (16)
                                     sentra would be okay but my rio would be a chore -NT - (boxley)
                                     It's all about the seats. - (pwhysall) - (14)
                                         Just spent today as a passenger in a Lexus - (broomberg) - (2)
                                             My Dad bought an LS 430. - (Another Scott) - (1)
                                                 I was in the front seat - (broomberg)
                                         Toyota works without tilting the seat - (ben_tilly) - (10)
                                             I tilt the seat in everything I can. - (broomberg) - (7)
                                                 You're probably a lethal danger to everyone else on the road - (CRConrad) - (6)
                                                     Maybe - (broomberg) - (1)
                                                         Your driving was surprisingly sane -NT - (ben_tilly)
                                                     You'd have a coronary seeing Chicago drivers. - (Another Scott) - (3)
                                                         What was old is new again... - (jb4)
                                                         those are only the "South Siders" - (lincoln) - (1)
                                                             What about Pilsen, Little Village, Logan Square... - (jb4)
                                             you are short torso, he is longish - (boxley) - (1)
                                                 Thank you for figuring out why I have more of a problem - (ben_tilly)
                 Honda Already Has - IMO - (gdaustin) - (7)
                     It's still ugly - (tonytib) - (6)
                         Being a Yank, you are allowed to be wrong on these things. - (CRConrad) - (5)
                             Right, I'm not an arrogant euro-weenie - (tonytib) - (1)
                                 ICLRPD: Right, I'm not an arrogant euro-weenie (new thread) - (Steve Lowe)
                             coming from a bloody finn! what cheek! - (boxley) - (2)
                                 Finn my arse. - (pwhysall) - (1)
                                     Is that "misplaced" as in "lost"? - (jb4)

Yes, it is! No, it isn't!
369 ms