Maybe she does, maybe she doesn't.

Post #199,937 by mmoffitt 3/22/05 1:44:25 PM Reply	Maybe she does, maybe she doesn't. Is it likely that she does? Probably not. Is there any evidence to support that she does? None I am aware of. But before we get all certain of the near-deity like certainty of the vaunted practitioners of western medicine we must remember that at one point we thought that people under anesthesia could not hear us and could not feel any pain. That's what our physicians told us. And it turned out to be not true in all cases. A fact that they, the physicians, themselves had to later acknowledge. I still find some irony here. It seems to me that you cannot have it both ways. If, as you say, she "no longer inhabits her body" then did her desires survive that body? Proponents of starvation seem to be saying "what her wishes were should be the standard" but if she's "already dead" what relevance is there to her wishes? I've said all I can say on this subject. No one has asked me the question I was anticipating, so I'll ask it of myself. "What if it was my wife?" And the answer is "I don't know." But I would probably remove her feeding tube. She has told me that's what she wants (now), but I don't know if I could intentionally starve her to death. Fortunately, with my great girth and poor family history wrt hearts, I probably won't ever have to find out how I'd answer that question. What I do know is that there is no way on earth I would live with another women and sire children by her as long as I remained married to her. And I sure as hell would not turn the matter over to any third party - as was done in this case. bcnu, Mikem Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer. God Bless America.
Post #199,939 by jbrabeck 3/22/05 1:51:05 PM Reply	Concur If she did not want to be "kept alive at all costs", then she should be "put to sleep", but not starved to death. The method is what bothers me. 'Twas my wife, I'd find a way to "humanely" execute her. (My wife has said she wouldn't want to be kept alive). But I wouldn't starve her to death. A good friend will come and bail you out of jail ... but, a true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "Damn...that was fun!"
Post #199,943 by jake123 3/22/05 2:09:26 PM Reply	well, there's the problem You certainly can't legally do that. So, what are the remaining options for Schiavo? They are what they're doing. Her husband waited for five years to see if she would come back. That actually makes him exceptionally devoted, esp. today. He clearly thinks she IS dead in any real meaning of the word, even if her parents have refused to accept it, and have managed to use the courts to impose their interpretation of the situation on everybody else, including the hubby as well as on Terry herself. If his reasonable conclusion and the conclusion of all the other people (including what, four or five court-appointed guardians to look into her case and make a recommendation to the court) are that she's in all real respects dead, I don't think you can really blame him for moving on, or for having children. A year or so ago, I saw one of those medical shows where a construction worker had taken a tumble and landed on his head. The doctors at the hospital managed to get everything going again, but not before irreperable brain damage had occurred, leaving him effectively flatlined. They ended up pulling the plug 12 hours later. According to the kind of formulation mmoffit using here, they should keep him on the machines indefinitely, as those machines are not functionally any different from the feeding tube; the main difference between unplugging that guy from the ventilator and Schiavo from the tube is that he kicks off in a few minutes while she gets to linger for weeks. As Peter said, "can she swallow for herself?" --\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca \n [link\|http://consultron.ca\|http://consultron.ca] [link\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] \n Kingston Ontario Canada [link\|news://news.consultron.ca\|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
Post #199,964 by mmoffitt 3/22/05 3:27:51 PM Reply	I don't blame him for moving on. But he should have had at least the decency to divorce her first. bcnu, Mikem Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer. God Bless America.
Post #199,968 by jake123 3/22/05 3:34:03 PM Reply	What if he's Catholic? What if he thinks that his wife never wanted to have and would have hated the thought of her twilight existence, and that divorcing here would mean leaving care decisions to her parents, dooming her to it for as long as they could come up with the dough? Perhaps his efforts on getting the plug pulled are actually motivated by his love for his wife, regardless of the fact that fifteen years' worth of water has passed under the bridge since she died in all the ways that matter. --\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca \n [link\|http://consultron.ca\|http://consultron.ca] [link\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] \n Kingston Ontario Canada [link\|news://news.consultron.ca\|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
Post #199,969 by hnick 3/22/05 3:35:13 PM Reply	'Till death do you part... No need for a divorce. You won't agree of course. That's fine.
Post #200,068 by mmoffitt 3/23/05 8:17:10 AM Reply	PVS != Dead. bcnu, Mikem Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer. God Bless America.
Post #200,084 by hnick 3/23/05 8:50:08 AM Reply	No squash == dead Once the higher brain is gone, so is the person. The body is just meat, not a person. Ruin the body and preserve the brain and you still have a person (Steven Hawking comes to mind.) Kill the brain, the person is no longer. Neither is the marriage. Again, I don't expect you to agree with me. That's OK too, as long as I don't have to live by your expectations of humanity.
Post #200,086 by mmoffitt 3/23/05 9:04:16 AM Reply	Nobody but me does, unfortunately ;0) bcnu, Mikem Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer. God Bless America.
Post #200,087 by hnick 3/23/05 9:11:43 AM Reply	when everybody else is consistantly wrong, and only you are right, it may be time to reconsider your position. If you always have to think outside the box, it may be time to fix the box... or not... sometimes one person is right and everybody else is wrong.
Post #200,199 by boxley 3/23/05 6:42:18 PM Reply	hey none of that! All tribal myths are true, for a given value of "true" Terry Pratchett Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 48 years. meep questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #200,019 by tuberculosis 3/22/05 9:26:32 PM Reply	Decency? She died. Divorce implies an unsuccessful marriage - a release from vows - a loss of faith. He has been beyond faithful - rather than take the easy way out he has shown amazing devotion. He is enduring tremendous hardship to carry out her wishes. That's real love, that is. "Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" --Mark Twain "The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." --Albert Einstein "This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses." --George W. Bush
Post #200,020 by boxley 3/22/05 9:27:15 PM Reply	agreed All tribal myths are true, for a given value of "true" Terry Pratchett Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 48 years. meep questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #200,023 by drewk 3/22/05 9:33:12 PM Reply	Can we also agree ... (new thread) Created as new thread #200022 titled [link\|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=200022\|Can we also agree ...] === Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link\|http://DocHope.com\|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats]. [link\|http://DocHope.com\|http://DocHope.com]
Post #200,065 by mmoffitt 3/23/05 8:13:09 AM Reply	Right, like the $300,000 he took. GMAFB. She wasn't dead when he left her. She will be shortly. And I'll bet he constantly harped on her about being fat, too. bcnu, Mikem Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer. God Bless America.
Post #200,070 by boxley 3/23/05 8:22:48 AM Reply	well she was a puker, finally getting her wish all those years he visited, laughing and gloating at her, poking her with stick, yeah, thats the ticket that will get this overturned. Whatever it takes to attack someone whose actions you dont like. Politics of personaldestruction eh what? thanx, bill All tribal myths are true, for a given value of "true" Terry Pratchett Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 48 years. meep questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #200,075 by mmoffitt 3/23/05 8:30:41 AM Reply	Don't need to make stuff up. He knocked up one woman (twice!) while married to another. Call me a puritan, but that's just plain old wrong. And much as many here would like it to be, permanent vegetative state and dead are not the same thing. bcnu, Mikem Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer. God Bless America.
Post #200,077 by Silverlock 3/23/05 8:33:25 AM Reply	The body isn't dead The person is. ----------------------------------------- "In this world of sin and sorrow there is always something to be thankful for. As for me, I rejoice that I am not a Republican." -- H. L. Mencken Support our troops, Impeach Bush. D. D. Richards
Post #200,088 by mmoffitt 3/23/05 9:18:55 AM Reply	A long time ago, ... I was an orderly at a hospital in rural NC. We had a 37 year old male patient come in with a massive stroke. He was unresponsive, but breathing. This was back before HMO's, so he stayed on at the hospital for roughly a year. The whole time, unresponsive. He was breathing, but he was a turn every two hours, feeding tube, etc. patient. His wife visited frequently. Then, iirc almost a year after his admission she came in and sat with him for about 30 minutes. She left crying. After she left, the patient rose up in his bed briefly and then moaned horribly. Later I found out that his wife came to tell him she'd met some one else. We were encouraged by his movement because this is the first time any of us had seen him move and I'd been shaving him every day for almost a year. (Most of the time his pupils didn't respond to light stimulus). He eventually got to the point where he could move his head and shoulders as well as swallow, so we could feed him with a spoon. He was discharged to a nursing home. I still remember this guy 25 years later. I know his name and I'll never forget his reaction after his wife left. I, like the rest of the medical staff, would have bet the ranch that he would never make any sort of recovery - the damage to his brain was extensive because of the stroke. But he recovered enough to respond to people, eat and he did regain some movement. It wasn't much of a life, but he was still alive. bcnu, Mikem Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer. God Bless America.
Post #200,093 by jbrabeck 3/23/05 9:32:21 AM Reply	There's a slight difference Your patient "recovered enough to respond to people, eat and he did regain some movement". From what I've read, Terry won't. I agree with you. I believe that letting her starve is wrong. But there should be some alternative. If her parents wish to keep her alive with feeding, they should be granted that permission. I also agree with your assessment of her husband. Since he "gave up custody" to the courts, he should have divorced her, especially if he decided to establish a relationship with another woman. There's no easy answer. I disagree with both extremes... save her at any cost and let her starve. I also think that Congress & Bush made a mistake in passing a bill specifically for one individual. A good friend will come and bail you out of jail ... but, a true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "Damn...that was fun!"
Post #200,108 by mmoffitt 3/23/05 10:27:38 AM Reply	I don't think we disagree at all. bcnu, Mikem Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer. God Bless America.
Post #200,101 by jbrabeck 3/23/05 9:57:09 AM Reply	Another Christian view From the StarTribune. [link\|http://www.startribune.com/stories/1519/5307756.html\|God is merciful enough to offer life beyond feeding tubes] A good friend will come and bail you out of jail ... but, a true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "Damn...that was fun!"
Post #200,140 by tuberculosis 3/23/05 2:00:16 PM Reply	Year? Because she died in 1990. (new thread) Created as new thread #200139 titled [link\|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=200139\|Year? Because she died in 1990.] "Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" --Mark Twain "The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." --Albert Einstein "This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses." --George W. Bush
Post #199,944 by Another Scott 3/22/05 2:09:33 PM 3/22/05 9:58:48 PM Reply	Trouble is, there's no legal way to do that. The USSC has ruled that there's no right to assisted suicide or euthanasia. Cases like this illustrate that that opinion should be revisited, IMO. If it's any consolation, her body will die of dehydration not starvation. :-( [edit:] [link\|http://www.sptimes.com/2005/03/19/Tampabay/An_image_to_make_stom.shtml\|St. Petersburg Times]: The heart of the issue for some is whether Schiavo will suffer as she dies after the feeding tube is removed. [Stephen] Mernoff says she will not. "People think that's a terrible way to go, but that's because they think of starvation as it would feel to them, people who are totally conscious and aware of their surroundings," he said. "In a case like this, however, the patient will feel nothing at first, then will experience renal failure, lapse quickly and painlessly into a coma and then expire. It is actually very peaceful." FWIW. Cheers, Scott. Edited by Another Scott March 22, 2005, 09:58:48 PM EST Expand All History
Post #199,967 by mmoffitt 3/22/05 3:31:15 PM Reply	It'd be interesting to see if that option were available ... what, if any, difference it would make to people's opinions. I finally had a chance to talk to my wife about this last night (she's been an R.N. for 23 years). She said that while she didn't want to be the one to remove the tube, she wasn't opposed to the idea. Then I said something like, "Well, you know how painful that could be for the patient. I've heard some advocate for a lethal injection." She actually whinced, then frowned when I said that. bcnu, Mikem Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer. God Bless America.

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