Post #199,726
3/21/05 12:11:55 PM
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She won't recover...
...because her brain is physically, actually gone.
The civilised thing to do is to jack up the pain relief and let her die with whatever dignity she's got left.
Peter
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Post #199,733
3/21/05 12:25:48 PM
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Can you point me at an article that describes
how the conclusion that "the brain is dead" has been reached?
According to my coworker, the doctor who was the main witness to that spent 45 minutes with the patient, did not do PET or MRI scans, and testified in 6 such cases in 5 years, always with "brain dead" conclusion. And, the husband blocked any attempts to get second opinion.
--
And what are we doing when the two most powerful nations on earth -- America and Israel -- stomp on the elementary rights of human beings?
-- letter to the editor from W. Ostermeier, Liechtenstein
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Post #199,753
3/21/05 1:44:55 PM
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Re: Can you point me at an article that describes
Examine page 4 of the following PDF document, which is the decision of the SCF in the Bush v. Schiavo case:\r\n \r\n[link|http://news.findlaw.com/hdocs/docs/schiavo/flsct92304opn.pdf|http://news.findlaw....flsct92304opn.pdf]\r\n \r\n By mid 1996, the CAT scans of her brain showed a\r\nseverely abnormal structure. At this point, much of her cerebral\r\ncortex is simply gone and has been replaced by cerebral spinal fluid.\r\nMedicine cannot cure this condition. Unless an act of God, a true\r\nmiracle, were to recreate her brain, Theresa will always remain in an\r\nunconscious, reflexive state, totally dependent upon others to feed her\r\nand care for her most private needs.
Peter
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Post #199,758
3/21/05 1:56:10 PM
3/21/05 1:57:39 PM
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Oh, that's different then.
A computer said she was brain dead. That must be right, then. :-p
[Edit]: And if she is a "total care" case and her mother and father want to do that for her, what exactly is anyone else's standing to challenge that? A in-all-but-letter ex-husband? Feh.
bcnu,
Mikem
Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
God Bless America.
Edited by mmoffitt
March 21, 2005, 01:57:39 PM EST
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Post #199,761
3/21/05 2:01:28 PM
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Please read Abstract Appeal.
[link|http://abstractappeal.com/schiavo/infopage.html#qanda|Here]: Why did Terri\ufffds husband get to make the decision about whether she should live or die?
Michael Schiavo did not make the decision to discontinue life-prolonging measures for Terri.
As Terri's husband, Michael has been her guardian and her surrogate decision-maker. By 1998, though -- eight years after the trauma that produced Terri's situation -- Michael and Terri's parents disagreed over the proper course for her.
Rather than make the decision himself, Michael followed a procedure permitted by Florida courts by which a surrogate such as Michael can petition a court, asking the court to act as the ward's surrogate and determine what the ward would decide to do. Michael did this, and based on statements Terri made to him and others, he took the position that Terri would not wish to continue life-prolonging measures. The Schindlers took the position that Terri would continue life-prolonging measures. Under this procedure, the trial court becomes the surrogate decision-maker, and that is what happened in this case.
The trial court in this case held a trial on the dispute. Both sides were given opportunities to present their views and the evidence supporting those views. Afterwards, the trial court determined that, even applying the "clear and convincing evidence" standard -- the highest burden of proof used in civil cases -- the evidence showed that Terri would not wish to continue life-prolonging measures. Later on it says: Recently, Michael received an offer of $1 million, and perhaps a second offer of $10 million, to walk away from this case and permit Terri's parents to care for her. These offers, assuming there were two, were based on a misunderstanding of the situation here. Michael lacks the power to undo the court order determining Terri's wishes and requiring the removal of her feeding tube. He did not make the decision and cannot unmake it. The court made the decision on Terri's behalf. Nonetheless, Michael apparently rejected each offer. The decision is in accordance with Terri's wishes and that's what matters. Cheers, Scott.
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Post #199,763
3/21/05 2:04:11 PM
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And my question still stands.
If parents want to care for a child, whose right is it to take that opportunity away from the parents? I don't know what idiots in FL decided that the courts should take that right away - but there's a lot of things about Floridians that I don't understand.
bcnu,
Mikem
Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
God Bless America.
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Post #199,765
3/21/05 2:07:23 PM
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Parents don't own their grown children.
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Post #199,796
3/21/05 3:52:46 PM
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They don't "own" wee ones either ;0)
bcnu,
Mikem
Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
God Bless America.
|
Post #199,799
3/21/05 3:56:47 PM
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No, but they are legally responsible unless they're over 18.
I've requested longer subject lines, but we can't have everything. (Where would we put it?)
Her parents have no say in what happens to Terry. She made her wishes clear and that's what has to determine the decision. She was over 18.
It really is as simple as that.
Cheers,
Scott.
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Post #199,802
3/21/05 4:01:53 PM
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Except that we depend upon hearsay for that.
And there is the ambiguity. Where'd I put that other post about a living will?
bcnu,
Mikem
Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
God Bless America.
|
Post #199,809
3/21/05 4:18:02 PM
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There was Clear and Convincing proof according to the courts
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Post #199,811
3/21/05 4:31:36 PM
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I'm lazy. Link where she in her own hand ....
requested not to be fed?
bcnu,
Mikem
Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
God Bless America.
|
Post #199,814
3/21/05 4:40:58 PM
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Oh, for goodness' sake.
She's got no cerebral cortex!
She'll NEVER be able to do ANYTHING that requires conscious thought, because the part of her brain that deals with that is GONE. The tragedy is that people are fighting to keep alive that which cannot think or feel emotion. It's a machine. The least worst thing anyone can do for Terri is let her die.
What are you fighting for? The right to be kept alive at any cost, no matter the prognosis or unlikelihood of recovery? The right to override the advice of doctors, the wishes of next of kin, and the tatters of patient dignity? Do you want decisions in cases like this to be made by a collection of people in nice suits with corporate puppet masters and a weather eye on their own re-election?
Peter
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Post #199,824
3/21/05 4:57:22 PM
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Huh?
She's got no cerebral cortex!
Now, apparently, that's true. See my lamenting no "living will" in the other forum.
The right to override the advice of doctors, ...
Um, I think I've pointed out the danger of over-reliance upon the wisdom of clinicians.
the wishes of next of kin, ...
Um, no, I've said that if her parents want to care for her, they should be allowed to.
Do you want decisions in cases like this to be made by a collection of people in nice suits with corporate puppet masters and a weather eye on their own re-election?
Um, no. I want the family to decide. Her parents were always and always will be her family. Her ex-husband was transitory family. By turning this over to the courts, the COURTS ferchrissakes, he committed an act so heinous that words fail. You want to leave it up to that turd? The guy who said, "Yeah, I've got a wife. But, hey, she's sick. So I'll go bang somebody else that's a little more lively - but I won't divorce my wife first because I care so much about her."
bcnu,
Mikem
Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
God Bless America.
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Post #199,827
3/21/05 5:00:40 PM
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On what ethical basis do you want the family to decide?
Why should they have the right to prolong what might be a very painful existence and one which at the very least is humiliating in the extreme?
Where does Terri's dignity and quality of life come into this? Do you factor anything in except the feelings of people who, when all is said and done, aren't in that hospital bed?
And you really need to go and read the legals on the husband's role in all this.
Peter
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Post #199,834
3/21/05 5:07:34 PM
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According to your own words, Terri has no feelings
If you were consistent, you would agree that the only people who should be considered are those who "aren't in that hospital bed". Do you ascribe dignity to a vegetable? Or do you think she is not a vegetable after all?
--
And what are we doing when the two most powerful nations on earth -- America and Israel -- stomp on the elementary rights of human beings?
-- letter to the editor from W. Ostermeier, Liechtenstein
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Post #199,836
3/21/05 5:14:23 PM
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Distinguish between "feeling" and "feelings"
There's sensation and there's emotion. They're not the same.
My point is that we cannot know what Terri's body is feeling in the former sense; she may be in great pain.
It is my firm belief that in cases like this the patients' lives are artificially prolonged for the sole benefit of the relatives. That's wrong, in my view.
And sooner or later, that tube will be withdrawn and Terri will be allowed to die.
The compassionate thing to do would be to do that now and let her parents get on with grieving their daughter.
Peter
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Post #199,837
3/21/05 5:14:39 PM
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I disagree.
In Florida, and in much of the US, there is the fundamental right of a person to decide whether to refuse or accept medical treatment. Courts have found that Terri stated, on numerous occasions, that she would not want to be kept alive when there was no hope. A person does not lose the right to have those wishes respected when they can no longer act.
Cheers,
Scott.
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Post #199,906
3/22/05 8:43:00 AM
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"Stated her wishes" completely overblown.
It's noble as hell to say, "I don't want to be on a ventilator. I don't want heroics." It's also easier than hell to say when there is not immediate danger of that occuring. When did she say that? In her 20's - the age of immortality?
I've seen far too many patients 180 on that sentiment once they actually need life support.
The best course (and not coincidentally the course which would have avoided all of this mess) would have been for her husband to do the decent thing once there was a disagreement between him and her parents about continuing care. He should have divorced her. If not at that very moment, he sure as hell should have divorced her when he knocked up another woman the first time.
Don't like what's happening? Then keep in mind it is exclusively because of her husband's indecency.
bcnu,
Mikem
Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
God Bless America.
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Post #199,911
3/22/05 8:51:56 AM
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Your objections ignore her wishes.
Distrusting doctors and the courts does not change the fact that many people have said what her wishes are based on what she said. You haven't presented any evidence of the contrary.
You're wanting to impose the wishes of her parents on her. That can't happen if liberty means anything.
You're simply wrong about this Mike.
IMO, of course.
Cheers,
Scott.
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Post #199,912
3/22/05 8:56:16 AM
3/22/05 8:58:23 AM
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I don't know what her wishes are.
And no one does. We know what a young person, secure in the "knowledge" that she would not likely be put on any life support for decades, said she wanted. And only if we listen to hearsay. But if she wants anything now and what it might be is plainly unknowable.
bcnu,
Mikem
Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
God Bless America.
Edited by mmoffitt
March 22, 2005, 08:58:23 AM EST
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Post #199,917
3/22/05 10:26:40 AM
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One more time.
Please read the court records. [link|http://abstractappeal.com/schiavo/trialctorder02-00.pdf|Here] (10 page .pdf) is Judge Green's order from 2/11/2000: There are no written declarations by Terri Schiavo as to her intention with regard to this issue. Therefore, the court is left with oral declarations allegedly made to parties and non-parties as to her feelings on this subject. The testimony before this court reveals that she made comments or statements to five (5) persons, including her husband and her mother.
There was a lot of testimony concerning the Karen Ann Quinlin [sic] case in New Jersey. Mrs. Schindler testified that her daughter made comments during the television news reports of the father\ufffds attempts to have life support removed to the effect that they should just leave her (Karen Ann Quinlin [sic]) alone. Mrs. Schindler first testified that those comments were made when Terri was between 17-20 years of age but after being shown copies of newspaper accounts agreed that whe was 11 perhaps 12 years of age at the time. A witness recalled by Respondents testified to similar conversations with Terri Schiavo but stated that they occurred during the summer of 1982. While that witness appeared believeable at the offset [sic], the court noted two quotes from the discussion between she and Terri Schiavo which raise serious questions about the time frame. Both quotes are in the present tense and upon cross-examination, the witness did not alter them. The first quote involved a bad joke and used the verb \ufffdis\ufffd. The second quote involved the response from Terri Schiavo which used the word \ufffdare\ufffd. The court is mystified as to how these present tense verbs would have been used some six years after the death of Karen Ann Quinlin [sic]. The court further notes that this witness had quite specific memory during the trial but much less memory a few weeks earlier on deposition. At trial she mentioned seeing the television movie on Karen Ann Quinlin [sic] and had no hesitantly [sic] in testifying that this was a \ufffdreplay\ufffd of that movie and she watched such replay at college in Pennsylvania. She also knew precisely what song appeared on a TV program on a Friday evening when Petitioner was away at McDonald\ufffds training school. While the court certainly does not conclude the the [sic] bad joke and comment did not occur, the court is drawn to the conclusion that this discussion most likely occurred in the same time frame as the similar comments to Mrs. Schindler. This could well have occurred during this time frame since this witness and Terri Schiavo, together with their families, spent portions of summer vacation together which would have included the mid-1970\ufffds.
Michael Schiavo testified as to a few discussion he had with his wife concerning life support. The Guardian Ad Litem felt that this testimony standing alone would not rise to clear and convincing evidence of her intent. The court is not required to ruse on this issue since it does have the benefit of testimony of his brother and sister-in-law. As the witness called by the Respondents, the court had the testimony of the brother and sister-in-law trascribed so that the court would not be hamstrung by relying upon its notes. The court has reviewed the testimony of Scott Schiavo and Joan Schiavo and finds nothing contained theirin to be unreliable. The court notes that neither of these witenesses appeared to have shaded his or her testimony or even attempt to exclude unfavorable commments or points regarding those discussions. They were not impeached on cross-examination. Argument is made as to why they waited so long to step forward but their explanations are worthy of belief. The testimony of Ms. Bever;y Tyler, Executive Director of Georgia Health Discoveries, clearly establishes that the expressions made by Terri Schiavo to these witnesses are the type of expressions made in those types of situations as would be expected by people in this country in that age group at that time. They (statements) reflect underlying values of independence, quality of life, not to be a burden and so forth. \ufffdHooked up to a machine\ufffd means they do not want life artificially extended when there is no hope of improvement.
[\ufffd]
There are some comments or statement [sic] made by Terri Schiavo which the court does not feel are germane to this decision. The court does not feel that statements made by her at the age of 11 or 12 years truly reflect upon her intention regarding the situation at hand. Additionally, the court does not feel that her statements directed toward others and situations involving others would have the same weight as comments or statements regarding herself if personally placed in those same situations. Into the former category the court places statements regarding Karen Ann Quinlin [sic] and the infant child of the friend of Joan Schiavo. The court finds that those statements are more reflective of what Terri Schiavo would do in a similar situation for someone else.
The court does find that Terri Schiavo did make statements which are creditable and reliable with regard to her intention to given the situation at hand. Incidently, there is no question that Terri Schiavo does not pose a burden financially to anyone and this would appear to be a safe assumption for the foreseeable future. However, the court notes the term \ufffdburden\ufffd is not restricted solely to dollars and cents since one can also be a burden to others emotionally and physically. Statements which Terri Schiavo made which do support the relief sought by her surrogate (Petitioner/Guardian) include statements to him prompted by her grandmother being in intensive care that if she was ever a burden she would not want to live like that. Additionally, statements made to Miciael Schiavo which were prompted by something on television regarding people on life support that she wold not want to life [sic] like that also reflect her intention in this particular situation. Also the statements she made in the presence of Scott Schiavo at the funeral luncheon for his grandmother that \ufffdif I ever go like that just let me go. Don\ufffdt leave me there. I don\ufffdt want to be kept alive on a machine,\ufffd and to Joan Schiavo following a television movie in which a man following an accident was in a coma to the effect that she wanted it stated in her will that she would want the tubes and everything taken out if that ever happened to her are likewise reflective of this intent. The court specifically finds that these statements are Terri Schiavo\ufffds oral declarations concerning her intention as to what she would want done under the present circumstances and the testimony regarding such oral declarations is reliable, is creditable and rises to the level of clear and convincing evidence to this court. Typos are mine except where indicated by [sic]. HTH. Cheers, Scott.
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Post #199,919
3/22/05 10:44:40 AM
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You know what insanity is, right?
Repeating the same thing and expecting different results. We have the husband, his family and a flaky witness to go on wrt "her wishes". The mother - and this contradicts what I heard from an interview with the husband last night - is news to me. He was asked why Terri had "never said anything about her wishes to her own blood relations" and he did not dispute that and, in effect, put it that this is something you wouldn't discuss with blood relations (is that also to be believed?). That Terri had apparently said something to her mother related to this issue was news to me, I'll admit. I'll concede that point of my ignorance and then not hesitate to reject it as irrelevant. You should, too, unless, of course, you're happy to hold an adult in life and death matters to what they said when they were 11 or 12.
Because a judge believed a philandering husband and his kin offers little (if any) proof of what "her wishes" were. And I find it curious that all the folks in favor of starving her simultaneously argue that "she has no ability to think" and that we "should honor her wishes". That is amazing.
bcnu,
Mikem
Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
God Bless America.
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Post #199,920
3/22/05 11:07:40 AM
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Yeah.
Takes one to know one. :-D
Let's step back a bit.
Why would Michael be doing what he's been doing if he didn't think that's what she wanted? If he were a heartless cur only in it for the money, wouldn't he have taken the $1M or more that was offered? Wouldn't he have divorced his wife long ago and left her to her parents?
Oh, I forgot, he's just a heartless cur who enjoys being vilified.
[image|/forums/images/warning.png|0|This is sarcasm...]
I guess I'm done for a while.
Cheers,
Scott.
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Post #199,925
3/22/05 11:45:54 AM
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Wait for the movie rights. ;0)
He'll get his millions ;0)
bcnu,
Mikem
Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
God Bless America.
|
Post #199,926
3/22/05 11:54:47 AM
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Ha!
Your simultaneous cynicism and idealism amaze me.
:-)
Cheers,
Scott.
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Post #199,930
3/22/05 11:57:19 AM
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:-)
bcnu,
Mikem
Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
God Bless America.
|
Post #199,936
3/22/05 1:21:41 PM
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Exactly
It's unknowable, because she no longer inhabits her body.
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca] [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
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Post #199,937
3/22/05 1:44:25 PM
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Maybe she does, maybe she doesn't.
Is it likely that she does? Probably not. Is there any evidence to support that she does? None I am aware of. But before we get all certain of the near-deity like certainty of the vaunted practitioners of western medicine we must remember that at one point we thought that people under anesthesia could not hear us and could not feel any pain. That's what our physicians told us. And it turned out to be not true in all cases. A fact that they, the physicians, themselves had to later acknowledge.
I still find some irony here. It seems to me that you cannot have it both ways. If, as you say, she "no longer inhabits her body" then did her desires survive that body? Proponents of starvation seem to be saying "what her wishes were should be the standard" but if she's "already dead" what relevance is there to her wishes?
I've said all I can say on this subject. No one has asked me the question I was anticipating, so I'll ask it of myself. "What if it was my wife?" And the answer is "I don't know." But I would probably remove her feeding tube. She has told me that's what she wants (now), but I don't know if I could intentionally starve her to death. Fortunately, with my great girth and poor family history wrt hearts, I probably won't ever have to find out how I'd answer that question.
What I do know is that there is no way on earth I would live with another women and sire children by her as long as I remained married to her. And I sure as hell would not turn the matter over to any third party - as was done in this case.
bcnu,
Mikem
Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
God Bless America.
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Post #199,939
3/22/05 1:51:05 PM
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Concur
If she did not want to be "kept alive at all costs", then she should be "put to sleep", but not starved to death. The method is what bothers me. 'Twas my wife, I'd find a way to "humanely" execute her. (My wife has said she wouldn't want to be kept alive). But I wouldn't starve her to death.
A good friend will come and bail you out of jail ... but, a true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "Damn...that was fun!"
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Post #199,943
3/22/05 2:09:26 PM
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well, there's the problem
You certainly can't legally do that.
So, what are the remaining options for Schiavo? They are what they're doing.
Her husband waited for five years to see if she would come back. That actually makes him exceptionally devoted, esp. today. He clearly thinks she IS dead in any real meaning of the word, even if her parents have refused to accept it, and have managed to use the courts to impose their interpretation of the situation on everybody else, including the hubby as well as on Terry herself.
If his reasonable conclusion and the conclusion of all the other people (including what, four or five court-appointed guardians to look into her case and make a recommendation to the court) are that she's in all real respects dead, I don't think you can really blame him for moving on, or for having children.
A year or so ago, I saw one of those medical shows where a construction worker had taken a tumble and landed on his head. The doctors at the hospital managed to get everything going again, but not before irreperable brain damage had occurred, leaving him effectively flatlined. They ended up pulling the plug 12 hours later. According to the kind of formulation mmoffit using here, they should keep him on the machines indefinitely, as those machines are not functionally any different from the feeding tube; the main difference between unplugging that guy from the ventilator and Schiavo from the tube is that he kicks off in a few minutes while she gets to linger for weeks.
As Peter said, "can she swallow for herself?"
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca] [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
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Post #199,964
3/22/05 3:27:51 PM
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I don't blame him for moving on.
But he should have had at least the decency to divorce her first.
bcnu,
Mikem
Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
God Bless America.
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Post #199,968
3/22/05 3:34:03 PM
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What if he's Catholic?
What if he thinks that his wife never wanted to have and would have hated the thought of her twilight existence, and that divorcing here would mean leaving care decisions to her parents, dooming her to it for as long as they could come up with the dough?
Perhaps his efforts on getting the plug pulled are actually motivated by his love for his wife, regardless of the fact that fifteen years' worth of water has passed under the bridge since she died in all the ways that matter.
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca] [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
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Post #199,969
3/22/05 3:35:13 PM
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'Till death do you part...
No need for a divorce. You won't agree of course. That's fine.
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Post #200,068
3/23/05 8:17:10 AM
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PVS != Dead.
bcnu,
Mikem
Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
God Bless America.
|
Post #200,084
3/23/05 8:50:08 AM
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No squash == dead
Once the higher brain is gone, so is the person. The body is just meat, not a person. Ruin the body and preserve the brain and you still have a person (Steven Hawking comes to mind.) Kill the brain, the person is no longer. Neither is the marriage.
Again, I don't expect you to agree with me.
That's OK too, as long as I don't have to live by your expectations of humanity.
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Post #200,086
3/23/05 9:04:16 AM
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Nobody but me does, unfortunately ;0)
bcnu,
Mikem
Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
God Bless America.
|
Post #200,087
3/23/05 9:11:43 AM
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when everybody else is consistantly wrong,
and only you are right, it may be time to reconsider your position.
If you always have to think outside the box, it may be time to fix the box...
or not... sometimes one person is right and everybody else is wrong.
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Post #200,199
3/23/05 6:42:18 PM
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hey none of that!
All tribal myths are true, for a given value of "true" Terry Pratchett
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 48 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #200,019
3/22/05 9:26:32 PM
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Decency?
She died. Divorce implies an unsuccessful marriage - a release from vows - a loss of faith. He has been beyond faithful - rather than take the easy way out he has shown amazing devotion. He is enduring tremendous hardship to carry out her wishes.
That's real love, that is.
"Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" --Mark Twain
"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." --Albert Einstein
"This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses." --George W. Bush
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Post #200,020
3/22/05 9:27:15 PM
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agreed
All tribal myths are true, for a given value of "true" Terry Pratchett
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 48 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #200,023
3/22/05 9:33:12 PM
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Can we also agree ... (new thread)
Created as new thread #200022 titled [link|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=200022|Can we also agree ...]
===
Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
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Post #200,065
3/23/05 8:13:09 AM
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Right, like the $300,000 he took.
GMAFB. She wasn't dead when he left her. She will be shortly.
And I'll bet he constantly harped on her about being fat, too.
bcnu,
Mikem
Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
God Bless America.
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Post #200,070
3/23/05 8:22:48 AM
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well she was a puker, finally getting her wish
all those years he visited, laughing and gloating at her, poking her with stick, yeah, thats the ticket that will get this overturned. Whatever it takes to attack someone whose actions you dont like. Politics of personaldestruction eh what?
thanx,
bill
All tribal myths are true, for a given value of "true" Terry Pratchett
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 48 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #200,075
3/23/05 8:30:41 AM
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Don't need to make stuff up.
He knocked up one woman (twice!) while married to another. Call me a puritan, but that's just plain old wrong. And much as many here would like it to be, permanent vegetative state and dead are not the same thing.
bcnu,
Mikem
Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
God Bless America.
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Post #200,077
3/23/05 8:33:25 AM
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The body isn't dead
The person is.
-----------------------------------------
"In this world of sin and sorrow there is always something to be thankful for. As for me, I rejoice that I am not a Republican."
-- H. L. Mencken
Support our troops, Impeach Bush.
D. D. Richards
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Post #200,088
3/23/05 9:18:55 AM
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A long time ago, ...
I was an orderly at a hospital in rural NC. We had a 37 year old male patient come in with a massive stroke. He was unresponsive, but breathing. This was back before HMO's, so he stayed on at the hospital for roughly a year. The whole time, unresponsive. He was breathing, but he was a turn every two hours, feeding tube, etc. patient. His wife visited frequently. Then, iirc almost a year after his admission she came in and sat with him for about 30 minutes. She left crying. After she left, the patient rose up in his bed briefly and then moaned horribly. Later I found out that his wife came to tell him she'd met some one else. We were encouraged by his movement because this is the first time any of us had seen him move and I'd been shaving him every day for almost a year. (Most of the time his pupils didn't respond to light stimulus). He eventually got to the point where he could move his head and shoulders as well as swallow, so we could feed him with a spoon. He was discharged to a nursing home. I still remember this guy 25 years later. I know his name and I'll never forget his reaction after his wife left.
I, like the rest of the medical staff, would have bet the ranch that he would never make any sort of recovery - the damage to his brain was extensive because of the stroke. But he recovered enough to respond to people, eat and he did regain some movement. It wasn't much of a life, but he was still alive.
bcnu,
Mikem
Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
God Bless America.
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Post #200,093
3/23/05 9:32:21 AM
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There's a slight difference
Your patient "recovered enough to respond to people, eat and he did regain some movement". From what I've read, Terry won't.
I agree with you. I believe that letting her starve is wrong. But there should be some alternative. If her parents wish to keep her alive with feeding, they should be granted that permission.
I also agree with your assessment of her husband. Since he "gave up custody" to the courts, he should have divorced her, especially if he decided to establish a relationship with another woman.
There's no easy answer. I disagree with both extremes... save her at any cost and let her starve. I also think that Congress & Bush made a mistake in passing a bill specifically for one individual.
A good friend will come and bail you out of jail ... but, a true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "Damn...that was fun!"
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Post #200,108
3/23/05 10:27:38 AM
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I don't think we disagree at all.
bcnu,
Mikem
Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
God Bless America.
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Post #200,101
3/23/05 9:57:09 AM
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Another Christian view
From the StarTribune.
[link|http://www.startribune.com/stories/1519/5307756.html|God is merciful enough to offer life beyond feeding tubes]
A good friend will come and bail you out of jail ... but, a true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "Damn...that was fun!"
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Post #200,140
3/23/05 2:00:16 PM
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Year? Because she died in 1990. (new thread)
Created as new thread #200139 titled [link|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=200139|Year? Because she died in 1990.]
"Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" --Mark Twain
"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." --Albert Einstein
"This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses." --George W. Bush
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Post #199,944
3/22/05 2:09:33 PM
3/22/05 9:58:48 PM
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Trouble is, there's no legal way to do that.
The USSC has ruled that there's no right to assisted suicide or euthanasia. Cases like this illustrate that that opinion should be revisited, IMO. If it's any consolation, her body will die of dehydration not starvation. :-( [edit:] [link|http://www.sptimes.com/2005/03/19/Tampabay/An_image_to_make_stom.shtml|St. Petersburg Times]: The heart of the issue for some is whether Schiavo will suffer as she dies after the feeding tube is removed. [Stephen] Mernoff says she will not.
"People think that's a terrible way to go, but that's because they think of starvation as it would feel to them, people who are totally conscious and aware of their surroundings," he said. "In a case like this, however, the patient will feel nothing at first, then will experience renal failure, lapse quickly and painlessly into a coma and then expire. It is actually very peaceful." FWIW. Cheers, Scott.
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Post #199,967
3/22/05 3:31:15 PM
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It'd be interesting to see if that option were available ...
what, if any, difference it would make to people's opinions. I finally had a chance to talk to my wife about this last night (she's been an R.N. for 23 years). She said that while she didn't want to be the one to remove the tube, she wasn't opposed to the idea. Then I said something like, "Well, you know how painful that could be for the patient. I've heard some advocate for a lethal injection." She actually whinced, then frowned when I said that.
bcnu,
Mikem
Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
God Bless America.
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Post #200,003
3/22/05 6:53:55 PM
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Oh, you mean like Newt Gingrich? thats the "decent" thing?
All tribal myths are true, for a given value of "true" Terry Pratchett
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 48 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #200,072
3/23/05 8:28:13 AM
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Apple/Orange.
bcnu,
Mikem
Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
God Bless America.
|
Post #199,857
3/21/05 6:51:59 PM
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well who is going to pay for that?
I have yet to see a copy of a check to a nursing home from the parents. Terri won a court case that gave her 700k for treatment. She has been in nursing homes for 15 years plus some very expensive treatment in the beginning, If the parents can prove that they can "pay" for the care, maybe, but since it will in all likelyhood that you and I will be paying for the vegetable's upkeep, let her have her own wishes. Otherwise when you visit florida make sure to go to the hospital and water your plant. You will be paying for it.
thanx,
boxley
All tribal myths are true, for a given value of "true" Terry Pratchett
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 48 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #199,860
3/21/05 7:15:24 PM
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Her nursing home care is free. Can't find where I read that.
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Post #199,862
3/21/05 7:21:44 PM
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cant find a hard link but medicaid is only for the broke
and she might have already used the 700k settlement, those places are expensive. Michael is still married to her and so is obligated for her bills, Im sure he is paying something,
thanx,
bill
All tribal myths are true, for a given value of "true" Terry Pratchett
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 48 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
|
Post #199,866
3/21/05 7:37:57 PM
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This isn't it, but supports my recollection.
[link|http://209.157.64.200/focus/f-news/1363122/posts|Bonnie Erbe]: Michael Schiavo's lawyer, George Felos, told reporters there once was a trust fund containing almost $800,000 (won in a malpractice case) to support Terry Schiavo's abundant medical expenses. That has been whittled down to near extinction. Felos says Schiavo's costs during the past few years have been borne by a confusing and twisted agglomeration of Social Security disability benefits, Medicaid and a corporate hospice fund for indigent patients. The story I read earlier said something like the hospice/nursing home was caring for her without cost to the family. Cheers, Scott.
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Post #199,867
3/21/05 7:45:03 PM
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so that takes "its the husband wanting the money " out of it
All tribal myths are true, for a given value of "true" Terry Pratchett
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 48 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #199,868
3/21/05 7:52:58 PM
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Not among the conspiracy theorists... :-(
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Post #199,908
3/22/05 8:45:59 AM
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Watch for a book.
bcnu,
Mikem
Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
God Bless America.
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Post #199,907
3/22/05 8:44:34 AM
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I always knew you were a closet-Bushie.
That's what then Govenor Bush signed into law. If the family can't pay then hospitals have the right to unplug the patient even over family objections.
bcnu,
Mikem
Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
God Bless America.
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Post #200,004
3/22/05 6:58:39 PM
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too bad hes not consistant :-)
All tribal myths are true, for a given value of "true" Terry Pratchett
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 48 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
|
Post #199,819
3/21/05 4:49:44 PM
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It wasn't written, but her views were clear.
[link|http://news.findlaw.com/hdocs/docs/schiavo/flsct92304opn.pdf|Findlaw] (.pdf): For the first three years after this tragedy, Michael and Theresa\ufffds parents, Robert and Mary Schindler, enjoyed an amicable relationship. However, that relationship ended in 1993 and the parties literally stopped speaking to each other. In May of 1998, eight years after Theresa lost consciousness, Michael petitioned the guardianship court to authorize the termination of life-prolonging procedures. See id. By filing this petition, which the Schindlers opposed, Michael placed the difficult decision in the hands of the court.
After a trial, at which both Michael and the Schindlers presented evidence, the guardianship court issued an extensive written order authorizing the discontinuance of artificial life support. The trial court found by clear and convincing evidence that Theresa Schiavo was in a persistent vegetative state and that Theresa would elect to cease life-prolonging procedures if she were competent to make her own decision. This order was affirmed on direct appeal, see Schiavo I, 780 So. 2d at 177, and we denied review. See In re Guardianship of Schiavo, 789 So. 2d 348 (Fla. 2001). Feel free to dig up those Florida Circuit Court rulings, and the appeals, if you want to disagree with the court. Cheers, Scott.
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Post #199,825
3/21/05 4:58:53 PM
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Thanks, but I don't need to dig.
See, my position is (and always has been - if I've said otherwise I can't find it) that this decision should never have been left to the courts.
bcnu,
Mikem
Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
God Bless America.
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Post #199,833
3/21/05 5:05:30 PM
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Then no decision would ever be made for Terri.
It's nice to say that it should stay in the family, but if the family disagrees there has to be a way to decide what the patient wants. A disinterested court is the best place.
"If you choose not to decide you still have made a choice." - N. Peart.
Cheers,
Scott.
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Post #199,909
3/22/05 8:47:15 AM
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Pretty loose with that word "family".
See above. The husband does the right thing, nobody ever hears the name Schaivo.
bcnu,
Mikem
Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
God Bless America.
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Post #199,854
3/21/05 6:45:40 PM
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You really need to move to Texas...
If parents want to care for a child, whose right is it to take that opportunity away from the parents? I don't know what idiots in FL decided that the courts should take that right away - but there's a lot of things about Floridians that I don't understand. They make Florida look sane.
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Post #199,905
3/22/05 8:35:10 AM
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Insane?
It's insane to suggest that if the parents want to care for her, they should be allowed to? Wow. Not much for liberty are you?
bcnu,
Mikem
Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
God Bless America.
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Post #200,124
3/23/05 12:59:59 PM
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Look at the law in Texas...
that Bush signed.
If Doctors feel that the treatment isn't working (even over the objects of the parents/legal guardians) they give the family 10 days to find a place that will take them or they pull the plug.
And yes, in my book, that makes Florida look sane.
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Post #200,127
3/23/05 1:02:04 PM
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Ah. Misunderstood. Agree.
bcnu,
Mikem
Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
God Bless America.
|
Post #200,109
3/23/05 10:27:50 AM
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And here is a second opinion that disagrees with the first
And, the CAT scan picture is available, so have your own doctor take a look.
[link|http://codeblueblog.blogs.com/codeblueblog/2005/03/csi_medblogs_co.html|http://codeblueblog...._medblogs_co.html]
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
The most alarming thing about this image, however, is that there certainly is cortex left. Granted, it is severely thinned, especially for Terri's age, but I would be nonplussed if you told me that this was a 75 year old female who was somewhat senile but fully functional, and I defy a radiologist anywhere to contest that.
I HAVE SEEN MANY WALKING, TALKING, FAIRLY COHERENT PEOPLE WITH WORSE CEREBRAL/CORTICAL ATROPHY. THEREFORE, THIS IS IN NO WAY PRIMA FACIE EVIDENCE THAT TERRI SCHIAVO'S MENTAL ABILITIES OR/OR CAPABILITIES ARE COMPLETELY ERADICATED. I CANNOT BELIEVE SUCH TESTIMONY HAS BEEN GIVEN ON THE BASIS OF THIS SCAN.
The worrisome, no alarming thing, for me, was that I heard a bioethicist and several important figures on the major media describe Terri's brain as MUCH WORSE. One "expert" said that she had a "bag of water" in her head. Several experts described her as a "brain stem preparation"
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
--
And what are we doing when the two most powerful nations on earth -- America and Israel -- stomp on the elementary rights of human beings?
-- letter to the editor from W. Ostermeier, Liechtenstein
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Post #199,757
3/21/05 1:53:29 PM
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Oxymoron alert.
"Die with dignity". That can only be uttered by some one who has never actually seen anyone die first-hand. There is nothing dignified about dying.
bcnu,
Mikem
Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
God Bless America.
|
Post #199,759
3/21/05 1:58:17 PM
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You forget. :-( Anyway...
It's shorthand.
Her body could be kept "alive" for the next 60 years or more. But it's contrary to her exprressed wishes.
Remember Peter's posts from a few months ago. Let's try to keep this away from ad hominem.
Cheers,
Scott.
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Post #199,760
3/21/05 2:01:20 PM
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Okay, but that's a hot-button phrase for me.
I've seen a lot of people die (working in hospitals for roughly 7 years - attended every code on all of my shifts). This "die with dignity" crap lights my wick. In the same sense that "We will accept no peace without honor."
bcnu,
Mikem
Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
God Bless America.
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Post #199,767
3/21/05 2:17:22 PM
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Stop right there.
I know what I'm talking about.
Peter
[link|http://www.ubuntulinux.org|Ubuntu Linux]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
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Post #199,770
3/21/05 2:31:58 PM
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No.
You CAN 'die with dignity'. It can be something that you want. It can be something you are deprived of.
And I've been there while loved ones died.
I held my Grandfather's hand while he died.
Dignity is something the doctors tried like hell to deprive my Mother of.
It is NOT an oxymoron.
[link|http://www.runningworks.com|
] Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
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Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
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Post #199,771
3/21/05 2:34:01 PM
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*nod*
Peter
[link|http://www.ubuntulinux.org|Ubuntu Linux]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
|
Post #199,798
3/21/05 3:53:48 PM
|
"Do not go gentle into that good night." YMMV.
bcnu,
Mikem
Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
God Bless America.
|
Post #199,800
3/21/05 3:58:04 PM
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It is more dignified than
drooling and having your nappies changed thrice a day long after your spirit has moved on.
Anyhow, the key element to my mind is that Terri's intent was made known to multiple people and should be carried out. To do otherwise is to dishonor her.
The videos you see on sites like [link|http://www.terrisfight.org/|http://www.terrisfight.org/] are apparently seeing bunnies in the clouds. The "responses" to stimuli are apparently random and not repeatable.
"Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" --Mark Twain
"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." --Albert Einstein
"This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses." --George W. Bush
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Post #199,804
3/21/05 4:03:59 PM
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Well, imo, ...
we come into the world as babies and we go out pretty much the same way. Drooling, soiling diapers, having to be fed, etc. viewed in this light is part of the normal course. Hence not un-dignified. ;0)
bcnu,
Mikem
Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
God Bless America.
|
Post #199,806
3/21/05 4:13:41 PM
|
Over-generalised nonsense, but hey.
Peter
[link|http://www.ubuntulinux.org|Ubuntu Linux]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
|
Post #199,914
3/22/05 9:21:05 AM
|
Ever worked in a nursing home?
bcnu,
Mikem
Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
God Bless America.
|
Post #199,858
3/21/05 6:54:35 PM
|
about dying maybe, about choice of surroundings, yes
not in a hospital, hopefully outdoors where I can see the stars, and smell the land
thanx,
bill
All tribal myths are true, for a given value of "true" Terry Pratchett
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 48 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
|
