The Schiavo train wreck continues

3/1/05 11:56:46 PM

I hate to say it....

....cause they're going to argue that it's about keeping her alive and all.

But this divorce thing really seems to indicate it's about the money to me.

The simple solution - have the court declare that she's legally dead, give the money to the husband, and let the Right-To-Life group raise the money to keep her on the feeding tube.

Post #196,890

by boxley

3/2/05 6:53:37 AM

I thinkthe money ran out 2 years ago

Post #196,892

3/2/05 8:37:35 AM

The Terri Schiavo Foundation -- quotes...

[...]

After the "incident" that left Terry in this condition, her husband Michael Schiavo sued various members of the medical community for money, saying that they did not treat or diagnose her properly at an early stage, and that he needed this money to provide for Terri's therapy and rehabilitation and care.

After lengthy court battles, he finally won upwards of $1.7 million under the guise of caring for our daughter, and then to our horror, he immediately began spending the money on himself and his Playboy lifestyle.

Terri's estranged husband Michael Schiavo has been living with another woman for years, and has two children by her. He is determined to see Terri dead. Why? We believe it's because he gets to keep whatever money is left... and he may have even darker motives than that.

To add insult to all of this injury toward my daughter, Michael Schiavo is still her "legal husband" and therefore is her "guardian." And since they are not legally divorced, he controls whatever health care she will and will not get. We are not even allowed to know if she is getting aspirin.

In 1993 my family initiated litigation against Michael Schiavo solely for the purpose of acquiring medical, physical and neurological assistance for our daughter Terri. The litigation escalated in 1998 when Michael Schiavo petitioned the court to stop Terri from receiving food and water, thereby starving her to death.

In filing this legal action, he retained the services of a high profile euthanasia attorney and the financial backing of powerful euthanasia organizations. He also used Terri's medical rehabilitation money to underwrite much of the legal expenses associated with his effort to starve our daughter to death.

We know that he has spent nearly $500,000 of Terri's money in attorney's fees for just one attorney trying to obtain a court order to have Terri starved to death. The very money that was supposed to be used for Terri's rehabilitation is being used to have her killed.

We very quickly discovered it was impossible for us to compete with the abundance of financial and legal resources the pro-death organizations were providing Micheal Schiavo in their effort to kill Terri. They are pouring time and effort into her starvation because they want to use this case to further the agenda of legalized euthanasia.

My wife and I are not wealthy people. Throughout those years, we did not have any large organizations trying to help rescue our daughter. Consequently, we had to rely on the generosity of attorneys who were willing to offer their legal expertise at no cost or at reduced fees.

The bottom line is that we are in the final weeks or months of our struggle to rescue our daughter from an untimely death by starvation. Death by starvation is very slow, and extremely painful. As you must know, it is against the law to deliberately starve an animal to death. There are members of the Florida court who would not treat a dog the way they plan to treat my daughter.

At this point we must pull out all the stops in our fight to rescue our daughter.

As parents, we are desperate to save our daughter's life. As people who love life, we are determined to deprive the euthanasia advocates of successfully legalizing this form of homicide. We believe that their efforts to kill Terri are designed to set a precedent for the future eradication of defenseless disabled human beings. I was alive when Americans fought the Nazis; I do not want my daughter to meet the same fate of thousands of disabled people in Nazi Germany, and I do not want our country to go down that same dark path.

Friend, though we have never met, I'm asking you for your help. We desperately need your financial assistance to help our family continue the battle to keep our daughter from being starved to death. There are so many expenses in a case like this it is mind-boggling and overwhelming. Please click below to make a contribution now:

[link|https://secure.cartlight.com/merchant/terri/?afid=maxc|https://secure.cartl.../terri/?afid=maxc]

Our adversaries believe that by our family's financial attrition and difficulties, they will attain their objective of killing our daughter. Presently, Terri's starvation may only be a few weeks away, unless we find the financial resources to prevent this atrocity from becoming a reality.

I implore you to please help us. We are writing to you, because we believe you have a heart for justice and mercy. I'm asking you to put yourself in my shoes, and then do whatever you can to help our family. Whether it is $10 or $1000, we are desperate for the resources to fight this battle for our daughter's life at this critical juncture.

Please do whatever you can, and forward this e-mail to any friends or family that you have who you think might be interested in saving Terri's life.

I thank you for your time, your concern, and I solicit your prayers for Terri and our entire family. These have been very trying times for us all.

Sincerely,

Bob Schindler Sr.

GO HERE TO CONTRIBUTE NOW!

To submit a donation by check, please make check payable to "Terri Schindler-Schiavo Foundation" and send to:

The Terri Schindler-Schiavo Foundation
c/o NewsMax
P.O. Box 20989
West Palm Beach FL, 33416

I still say it's about money...both the original funds and funds to be raised.

Post #199,482

by boxley

3/18/05 11:41:03 PM

facts he got 1 million, 700k for treatment 300k to him

she has been in nursing homes since day one, have you priced those lately? the only question I have is how much have the parents been kicking in on her nursing home billings,
thanx,
bill

All tribal myths are true, for a given value of "true" Terry Pratchett

Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 48 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]

Post #201,313

3/30/05 4:28:01 PM

Follow-up...

I still say it's about the money....

WASHINGTON, March 28 - The parents of Terri Schiavo have authorized a conservative direct-mailing firm to sell a list of their financial supporters, making it likely that thousands of strangers moved by her plight will receive a steady stream of solicitations from anti-abortion and conservative groups.

"These compassionate pro-lifers donated toward Bob Schindler's legal battle to keep Terri's estranged husband from removing the feeding tube from Terri," says a description of the list on the Web site of the firm, Response Unlimited, which is asking $150 a month for 6,000 names and $500 a month for 4,000 e-mail addresses of people who responded last month to an e-mail plea from Ms. Schiavo's father. "These individuals are passionate about the way they value human life, adamantly oppose euthanasia and are pro-life in every sense of the word!"

Privacy experts said the sale of the list was legal and even predictable, if ghoulish.

[link|http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/29/politics/29donate.html?pagewanted=print&position=| Source ]

But damn...I would've at least have held out for 20 pieces of silver.

Post #201,317

by a6l6e6x

3/30/05 4:38:04 PM

You're selling yourself off cheap! :)

"Then one of the 12, called Judas Iscariot, went unto the chief priests, and said unto them, 'What will ye give me, and I will deliver him unto you?' And they covenanted with him for 30 pieces of silver." -- Matthew 26:14-15.

Alex

The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. -- Bertrand Russell

Post #201,328

by boxley

3/30/05 7:57:33 PM

it been about the circus for a while

schindlers asked for help and got it. However when you lay dow with dogs you get up with fleas as they are finding out to their dismay. Also, they are starting to love that camera in their face, look to seeing them in front of cameras for a long time to come. At least Michael tells them to fuck off regularly
thanx,
bill

All tribal myths are true, for a given value of "true" Terry Pratchett
[link|http://boxleys.blogspot.com/|http://boxleys.blogspot.com/]

Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 48 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]

Post #201,382

3/31/05 9:15:09 AM

Wow. Decency is in short supply here...

--

And what are we doing when the two most powerful nations on earth -- America and Israel -- stomp on the elementary rights of human beings?

-- letter to the editor from W. Ostermeier, Liechtenstein

Post #201,386

3/31/05 9:24:12 AM

:| Have you seen "O Brother, Where Art Thou"?

I'm thinking specifically of the scene under the oak tree with John Goodman's character, and his lecture on "how to make money in God's service".

"It's all about the money, boys!" he says.

--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton                            jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca]                   [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada               [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------

Post #201,551

4/1/05 12:14:43 PM

Whoops...sorry....

I should've stated that someone had something to do with Terri's death and was now attempting to cover it up.

Post #201,439

by GBert

3/31/05 12:23:47 PM

Schindler's List II -- there's gold in them thar bills!

Have whatever values you have. That's what America is for.
You don't need George Bush for that.

Post #196,907

by Nightowl

3/2/05 10:59:54 AM

I think the whole thing is just sad

And it makes you wonder what Terri herself would want, whether to live in that state as long as possible or get it overwith, somehow.

Brenda

"The people of the world having once been deceived, suspect deceit in truth itself." -- Hitopadesa 600?-1100? AD, Sanskrit Fable From Panchatantr

Post #196,917

3/2/05 1:12:46 PM

Reason enough to have a living will.

A good friend will come and bail you out of jail ... but, a true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "Damn...that was fun!"

Post #196,918

3/2/05 1:26:52 PM

8/21/07 5:46:02 AM

They don't help as much as you think

If you want to have a living will honored - I suggest you have it tattooed on your ass and notarized.

My dad had a living will, fat lot of good it did for him. His wife refused to dig it out and bring it in because she was deluded that he was "getting better". (I blame gutless doctors for much of this impression too).

When my sister and I dug it out of his files and brought it in the doctors refused to honor it unless it was presented by his wife/legal guardian. Ultimately we found a doctor with some stones that put the picture together and ended the madness - but it took over a week to do it.

Oh, and this was in fucking Florida. Coincidence? I don't know.

"Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect"   --Mark Twain

"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them."   --Albert Einstein

"This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses."   --George W. Bush

Edited by tuberculosis Aug. 21, 2007, 05:46:02 AM EDT

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Post #196,919

3/2/05 1:32:04 PM

I've heard other such stories.

But, at least it WAS honored, even if it took a week. What would have happened if he didn't have the living will?

A good friend will come and bail you out of jail ... but, a true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "Damn...that was fun!"

Post #196,924

3/2/05 2:33:05 PM

8/21/07 5:46:16 AM

No, the living will didn't enter into it at all

Instead I had to go digging for a doctor with balls and ask him to integrate the picture for Dad's wife.

The key issue seemed to be a plethora of specialists - each one would pop in every day or so and tweak his own little area - adjust this to lower blood pressure, add more of that to improve circulation, some of this to reduce bleeding, etc.... Every guy, when asked, would mumble about how his latest little tweak improved his little symptom.

The problem was every tweak for one system hosed some other guy's tweak. Basically dad died of multiple system failure brought on by complications from radiation therapy to treat multiple myeloma.

I finally called in a separate oncologist and asked him to integrate the picture and provide the overview prognosis. Dad's primary oncologist had lost his own dad to multiple myeloma and didn't have the stones to come out and say it was game over. He just could not say it.

I have to say the guy I found was awesome, he called a bedside meeting (dad was unconscious and on a ventilator - already pretty much gone I think), explained that at this point what we had was technology run amok, and then point by point crushed all of his wife's false hopes with facts. Tough job but ultimately effective.

An hour later they shot him with extra morphine and discontinued the meds that were keeping him going. With the blood pressure regulating meds gone he didn't last 30 more minutes.

Edited by tuberculosis Aug. 21, 2007, 05:46:16 AM EDT

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Post #196,929

by bionerd

3/2/05 3:12:10 PM

That was a terrible experience

No one should have to go through something like that. It's hell on the patient and the family.

"I think animal testing is a terrible idea; they get all nervous and give the wrong answers."

Post #196,931

3/2/05 4:03:39 PM

8/21/07 5:46:22 AM

Yes it was

Edited by tuberculosis Aug. 21, 2007, 05:46:22 AM EDT

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Post #196,940

3/2/05 6:06:05 PM

8/21/07 5:46:49 AM

This is timely (new thread)

Created as new thread #196939 titled [link|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=196939|This is timely]

Edited by tuberculosis Aug. 21, 2007, 05:46:49 AM EDT

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Post #196,933

by jb4

3/2/05 4:12:45 PM

Man, that's tough...

But congratulations on finding that particular doctor. You might want to keep his name around...just in case....

Post #196,936

3/2/05 5:12:12 PM

Re: They don't help as much as you think

I understand. Probably more than you know.

You are not alone.

Post #196,973

by Nightowl

3/3/05 12:31:48 AM

3/3/05 12:34:37 AM

One possible way to get around that

Have several copies made and notarized. We did. My mom and dad had one each drawn up last year, and my brother and I both have copies of both of them. We also got the POT papers early and the bank signing worked out, and everything, so that either of us or them could present the papers and they hopefully would be honored. Oh and it was done by a lawyer, so hopefully that gives it more weight as well.

Quite frankly though, as much peace as it gave us all, I still pray the day never comes when I'll have to use it.

Brenda

"The people of the world having once been deceived, suspect deceit in truth itself." -- Hitopadesa 600?-1100? AD, Sanskrit Fable From Panchatantr

Edited by Nightowl March 3, 2005, 12:34:37 AM EST

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Post #197,002

3/3/05 9:47:59 AM

One minor bit of info

at least in Florida, you have to authorize DNR (Do Not Resuscitate) EACH time you enter the hospital.

Post #199,472

3/18/05 10:37:04 PM

Yet more grandstanding.

[link|http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A48119-2005Mar18.html|Washington Post]:

Bill Frist (R-Tenn.), a renowned heart surgeon before becoming Senate majority leader, went to the floor late Thursday night for the second time in 12 hours to argue that Florida doctors had erred in saying Terri Schiavo is in a "persistent vegetative state."

"I question it based on a review of the video footage which I spent an hour or so looking at last night in my office," he said in a lengthy speech in which he quoted medical texts and standards. "She certainly seems to respond to visual stimuli."

His comments raised eyebrows in medical and political circles alike. It is not every day that a high-profile physician relies on family videotapes to challenge the diagnosis of doctors who examined a severely brain-damaged patient in person. Democrats were quick to note that Frist was getting rave reviews from conservative activists who will play a major role in the 2008 presidential primaries he is weighing.

[link|http://www.opinionjournal.com/columnists/pnoonan/?id=110006442|Peggy Noonan]:

Here's both a political and a public-relations reality: The Republican Party controls the Senate, the House and the White House. The Republicans are in charge. They have the power. If they can't save this woman's life, they will face a reckoning from a sizable portion of their own base. And they will of course deserve it.

This should concentrate their minds.

So should this: America is watching. As the deadline for removal of Mrs. Schiavo's feeding tube approaches, the story has broken through as never before in the media.

What tripe. Oh, sorry - some people eat tripe. What excrement!

Noonan advocates Congress getting involved because it's popular with a vocal part of the Republican base. Frist seems to go along, giving a medical opinion which isn't really a medical opinion (because he hasn't examined her and if he did offer one he could be charged with malpractice according to the WP story). He's not a neurologist, and it seems as though neither of them has read and understood what has happened in nearly 7 years of Florida court battles.

The Florida Supreme Court ruling declaring Jeb's interference unconstitutional is [link|http://news.findlaw.com/hdocs/docs/schiavo/flsct92304opn.pdf|here] (30 page .pdf). It has a good summary of the events. In particular:

The severity of Theresa\ufffds medical condition was explained by the Second District as follows:
The evidence is overwhelming that Theresa is in a permanent or persistent vegetative state. It is important to understand that a persistent vegetative state is not simply a coma. She is not asleep. She has cycles of apparent wakefulness and apparent sleep without any cognition or awareness. As she breathes, she often makes moaning sounds. Theresa has severe contractures of her hands, elbows, knees, and feet.

Over the span of this last decade, Theresa\ufffds brain has deteriorated because of the lack of oxygen it suffered at the time of the heart attack. By mid 1996, the CAT scans of her brain showed a severely abnormal structure. At this point, much of her cerebral cortex is simply gone and has been replaced by cerebral spinal fluid. Medicine cannot cure this condition. Unless an act of God, a true miracle, were to recreate her brain, Theresa will always remain in an unconscious, reflexive state, totally dependent upon others to feed her and care for her most private needs. She could remain in this state for many years.

Schiavo I, 780 So. 2d at 177. In affirming the trial court\ufffds order, the Second District concluded by stating:
In the final analysis, the difficult question that faced the trial court was whether Theresa Marie Schindler Schiavo, not after a few weeks in a coma, but after ten years in a persistent vegetative state that has robbed her of most of her cerebrum and all but the most instinctive of neurological functions, with no hope of a medical cure but with sufficient money and strength of body to live indefinitely, would choose to continue the constant nursing care and the supporting tubes in hopes that a miracle would somehow recreate her missing brain tissue, or whether she would wish to permit a natural death process to take its course and for her family members and loved ones to be free to continue their lives. After due consideration, we conclude that the trial judge had clear and convincing evidence to answer this question as he did.

Schiavo I, 780 So. 2d at 180.

The rest of the legal documents are on [link|http://news.findlaw.com/legalnews/lit/schiavo/index.html#docs|FindLaw].

If the Republicans in Congress continue with this travesty, I hope they suffer politically for it. I might even come to believe that Ross was right in his characterization of them.

Grrr.

My $0.02.

Cheers,
Scott.

Post #199,480

3/18/05 11:36:03 PM

And more to come....

it'll get much worse in the days ahead.

I liked what one site noted:

"If you're going to put somebody to death, or have them starved to death, I would think that you would want a complete neurological exam in reaching that conclusion," Frist said on the Senate floor. "In fact -- this is what I'm told -- that she hasn't had an MRI or PET scan which suggests she has not had a full neurological exam."

[link|http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=43370| WorldNetDaily ]

However, at this time, the Schindlers have not seriously contested the fact that Mrs. Schiavo's brain has suffered major, permanent damage. In the initial adversary proceeding, a board-certified neurologist who had reviewed a CAT scan of Mrs. Schiavo's brain and an EEG testified that most, if not all, of Mrs. Schiavo's cerebral cortex--the portion of her brain that allows for human cognition and memory--is either totally destroyed or damaged beyond repair. Her condition is legally a "terminal condition." <section> 765.101(17), Fla. Stat. (2000). Although it is conceivable that extraordinary treatment might improve some of the motor functions of her brain stem or cerebellum, the Schindlers have presented no medical evidence suggesting that any new treatment could restore to Mrs. Schiavo a level of function within the cerebral cortex that would allow her to understand her perceptions of sight and sound or to communicate or respond cognitively to those perceptions.

[link|http://abstractappeal.com/schiavo/2dcaorder07-01.txt| Appeal ]

Frankly I would find it hard to believe that no one hasn't done an complete neurological exam or that the parents didn't demand a complete neurological exam. But that's just me.

What's really sad about this is that there are real cases out there -- and this just distracts from it.

A critically ill 5-month-old was taken off life support and died Tuesday, a day after a judge cleared the way for doctors to halt care they believed to be futile. The infant's mother had fought to keep him alive.

[...]

Texas law allows hospitals to end life support in cases such as this but requires that families be given 10 days to find another facility to care for the patient. No hospital was found to take the baby.

[link|http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/nation/wire/sns-ap-life-support-fight,0,3939619.story?coll=sns-ap-nation-headlines| Newsday]

Post #199,483

by boxley

3/18/05 11:46:26 PM

if she was a dog

that was mule kicked in the head so all it could do was shit piss and slobber on its bed and the owners shoved a feeding tube down its throat to keep it alive all these fuckers would want them arrested for animal cruelty crying to take it to the vet to end the suffering
thanx,
bill

Post #199,501

3/19/05 8:30:41 AM

Letter to my Congressman.

Tom Davis was generally regarded as a moderate Republican, at least by me. I'm very disappointed that he's [link|http://www.timesdispatch.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=RTD/MGArticle/RTD_BasicArticle&c=MGArticle&cid=1031781670886|participating ] in this travesty.

My letter to him - I had to use a stupid [link|http://tomdavis.house.gov/davis_contents/center/feedback/|web form]:

Congressman Davis:

I strongly disagree with your actions in the Terry Schiavo case for several reasons. 1) This case has been litigated for nearly 7 years in the Florida courts. The courts there have made a final ruling and the US Supreme Court has refused to intervene. Separation of Powers mandates that the Florida court ruling must stand and the US Congress must not interfere with the decision of the Florida courts. 2) The Congress has no authority to interfere in state matters like this. 3) It is a private family matter. Attempting to intervene in this unseemly way is counter-productive and will only inflame passions on both sides of the issue. 4) It tells people in your district that you are not a moderate but rather a prisoner of the far right fringe of the Republican Party. It also tells us that you're more interested in interfering in private family matters than addressing the important national interests facing the US.

I urge you to reconsider your position on the Schiavo matter.

Please read the Florida Supreme Court ruling from September. : [link|http://news.findlaw.com/hdocs/docs/schiavo/flsct92304opn.pdf|http://news.findlaw....flsct92304opn.pdf] It's only 30 pages. It has a brief summary of the case and includes the following:

--- begin cut ---
The evidence is overwhelming that Theresa is in a permanent or persistent vegetative state. It is important to understand that a persistent vegetative state is not simply a coma. She is not asleep. She has cycles of apparent wakefulness and apparent sleep without any cognition or awareness. As she breathes, she often makes moaning sounds. Theresa has severe contractures of her hands, elbows, knees, and feet.

Over the span of this last decade, Theresa\ufffds brain has deteriorated because of the lack of oxygen it suffered at the time of the heart attack. By mid 1996, the CAT scans of her brain showed a severely abnormal structure. At this point, much of her cerebral cortex is simply gone and has been replaced by cerebral spinal fluid. Medicine cannot cure this condition. Unless an act of God, a true miracle, were to recreate her brain, Theresa will always remain in an unconscious, reflexive state, totally dependent upon others to feed her and care for her most private needs. She could remain in this state for many years.
--- end cut ---

Despite Sen. Frist's comments, it is clear that her condition was properly diagnosed by her doctors and was determined to be a correct diagnosis by the courts. She is in a PVS and has been for over 10 years. Much of her brain is gone. Her wish for her body not to be kept alive by artificial means, as verified by the Florida courts, must be respected.

I reiterate that I am very upset and disappointed that you are helping the "conservative" fringe of the Republican party interfere in this case. There is no legitimate legal basis for you to do so. I expected better of you.

Shame on you, sir.

Regards,
Scott.

Post #199,512

by Silverlock

3/19/05 11:34:13 AM

Well said

-----------------------------------------
"In this world of sin and sorrow there is always something to be thankful for. As for me, I rejoice that I am not a Republican."
-- H. L. Mencken

Support our troops, Impeach Bush.
D. D. Richards

Post #199,533

3/19/05 1:41:43 PM

This government is pro-torture on every front

Post #199,574

by Ashton

3/20/05 1:18:29 AM

Two ears and a tail.

Post #199,524

3/19/05 1:00:00 PM

3/19/05 1:04:13 PM

Is there a better example anywhere ...

of how you cannot legislate morality?

I don't know about this one. I'm all for living wills, no codes, taking a brain damaged patient off a ventilator, d/c'ing treatment, etc. But this case gives me pause. There is something in me that says that there is a huge difference in the above and literally starving a patient to death.

I just hope I am never tasked with making a decision like this.

[Edit] The really interesting question we will never know the answer to. How does the nurse who will remove (or has removed) the feeding tube feel about what she has done? I know a hell of a lot of nurses who would not, on moral grounds, intentionally starve a patient.

bcnu,
Mikem

Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
God Bless America.

Edited by mmoffitt March 19, 2005, 01:04:13 PM EST

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Post #199,534

3/19/05 1:44:48 PM

Points up the need for legal euthanasia

Because, you're right, the feeding tube option is barbaric and will drag on for something like a month (you have to keep her hydrated because dehydration really is agony).

That said, if a nurse won't do it, show the family member how. I'd do it for mine.

Post #199,537

3/19/05 2:27:26 PM

Would training be necessary? The intent is to kill her, yes?

Withhold food from a family member. I still don't know if I could do that. I think it might be because I know better than most that allopathic medicine is not what it is commonly understood to be. It's an experiment - and not too damned good of one at that. Most people (no implication for the folks here) believe physicians actually know why they are doing what they do when caring for a patient. In addition, most hold that physicians understand what their treatments do. That this attitude is prevalent is indicative of how successful the Memorization Doctorates have been at conning the public. What your typical md knows is: Patient exhibits symptoms X, Y and Z. The PDR says (or the OTJ training they got as residents and interns) that in such a case we do treatments A and B. Ask them why and the honest response is that of 1,000 people with symptoms X, Y and Z treated with A and B, 700 got better, 200 didn't get worse and only 100 died.

With so much knowledge lacking among our medical "professionals" I can't see how I could ever be convinced by them that starving a relative was the "best" course of action.

bcnu,
Mikem

Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
God Bless America.

Post #199,539

3/19/05 3:43:53 PM

3/19/05 3:49:23 PM

Not kill, let her go - she's already dead.

Withdrawal of support (feeding tube, respirator, stabilizing medication, etc) is the only legal option for allowing someone to die now. All but the feeding tube will typically result in death in minutes.

Starvation will take days. That sucks.

Why can't we use the same lethal injection protocol used for capitol punishment? Its specifically designed to be humane (unlike starvation) and I see no difference between this and "putting down" a terminally ill animal.

"It is forbidden to kill; therefore all murderers are punished unless they kill in large numbers and to the sound of trumpets"   --Voltaire

"Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect"   --Mark Twain

"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them."   --Albert Einstein

"This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses."   --George W. Bush

Edited by tuberculosis March 19, 2005, 03:49:23 PM EST

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Post #199,575

by Ashton

3/20/05 1:42:33 AM

Re: Would training be necessary? The intent is to kill her,

My 'M' 'D' experience is similar to your take.

That's not the issue here, though. The issue is analogous to the Brompton Cocktail cock-up - whereby US MDs *cannot* prescribe its most effective ingredient (heroin / diacetyl morphine) but must use the Disneyland pharm-chem PC substitutes. Data be damned: DEA + maudlin sentimentality Rulez the stunted Murican psyche.

This is about the (equally unavailable option) of using the same 2-stage process used to humanely off (other) animals - the first shot is a nice feel-good narcotic which produces unconsciousness; the second is lethal via mentioned K/Na imbalance - intentionally.

(Ms. Gray died in my arms (a neat, feisty cat - with mouth cancer from a #&^$& "flea" collar) with her face nuzzled into my hands, even before the feel-good shot. It would have been criminal Not-to have ended her suffering. But then, animals deserve the better treatment in these circumstances - they've never built a nuke, so they are morally superior, hence deserve the Best.)

It took less than 2 minutes, allowing for my insistence that she enjoy some final period pain-free, before the end.

Fundies will continue to obsess on these and all other issues, while perpetually ignoring all grander issues (like say, the 100K+ casualties of all ethnic stripes including WASP, in just our first pair of Neoconman Wars).

We see there is no solution to the latter; probably not to the former, for any foreseeable - given the demise of any sort of Representational Republic.

May more and more of the young coalesce around.. How do I get out of this Chickenhawk Outfit?

Post #199,698

3/21/05 9:12:45 AM

It does have at least something to do with MD's...

and their art. For, are we not relying upon them to determine "the vegetative state"? I'm reminded of how far off these vaunted "professionals" were wrt anesthesia (they can't hear us, except, oops, some of them can).

We can, of course, never be certain what is going on in her mind - if anything. And I believe it can reasonably be argued that until we are *that* certain, starving her to death may not be the most humane option.

And - most of all in this case - keep in mind that whatever our positions on this issue are, we have all made them in a vacuum. Not a single one of us has seen her or her medical records. Relying upon the press for this sort of necessary background is as full of folly as relying on Tom Delay imo.

bcnu,
Mikem

Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
God Bless America.

Post #199,542

3/19/05 5:12:06 PM

She's effectively been dead since 2/25/1990.

As cited in the Florida Supreme Court link earlier, she had a cardiac arrest on that date due to a potassium imbalance. She never regained consciousness.

Potassium and sodium are extremely important elements in the body because they control the electrical potentials across cell membranes and greatly influence the way the nerves work. See, e.g., [link|http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Na-K_pump|Na-K Pump] at the Wikipedia. My mother has had occasional problems with too little potassium. It can lead to stroke-like symptoms and can be very serious.

The person who was Terry Schiavo died on 2/25/1990. Her body, controlled by "lower" brain functions of the cerebellum and brain stem, continued to live. But she, the person who lived due to the cerebrum and the [link|http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebral_cortex|cerebral cortex], was no more.

Tony Bland, a young man in the UK who was crushed at a football/soccer match in Hillsborough and went into a PVS, died 9 days after his care was [link|http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/november/19/newsid_2520000/2520581.stm|discontinued]. He was ~18 when he was crushed.

I'm very sorry for Terry, but keeping her body alive doesn't change the fact that, IMHO, she died over 15 years ago. I assume she will be given appropriate pain killers as she does have the right to appropriate [link|http://www.kokuamau.org/life/|palliative care]. I also feel sorry for her doctors, nurses, and most of all her family who have been dragged through this sordid mess for so many years.

To clarify my position:
I do not believe that her treatment should have been discontinued immmediately after her condition was clear - likely on 2/26/1990. I'm all in favor of appropriate efforts to treat and improve the condition of anyone in a similar situation. But when it became clear that her condition was not going to improve and was contrary to her expressed wishes then her body should have been allowed to die. That point was reached many, many years ago.

My $0.02.

Cheers,
Scott.

Post #199,591

3/20/05 9:15:10 AM

What you said.

Post #199,700

3/21/05 9:14:51 AM

I don't think its "so clear".

I only know what the press has reported and what Republicans have reported. That's insufficient for me to conclude anything about what her fate should be.

bcnu,
Mikem

Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
God Bless America.

Post #199,712

3/21/05 10:00:19 AM

Read the trial record on FindLaw and AbstractAppeal.

[link|http://news.findlaw.com/legalnews/lit/schiavo/index.html#docs|FindLaw] on Schiavo's case, and [link|http://abstractappeal.com/|Abstract Appeal] on the Florida courts.

Consider the record compared to the arguments on each side.

There is some filtering on those sites, but it's much closer to the bare facts than summary reports in the press. We can disagree about the implications of the facts, but the facts are clear IMHO. YMMV. :-)

Cheers,
Scott.

Post #199,721

3/21/05 10:58:58 AM

Facts are facts.

But this is still a human question. Reason alone is insufficient to deal with matters of humanity. Again, I don't know. I understand fully the arguments. One of my closest friends just d/c'd treatment of his father on Friday. He died within minutes. I supported his decision to do that, encouraged it even. Having recently lost an uncle who was in many ways a father to me, I understand the humanity of ending suffering (both my uncle and my friend's father suffered from cancer and were bed-ridden, rarely able to even speak and when they did, it did not make a lot of sense).

Shaivo's not on a vent, in which case the decision would be a no-brainer. This one still bothers me. I just can't accept at face value that she won't ever recover based exclusively upon what a group of MDs have said. And starving a patient to death differs significantly from discontinuing devices that breath for the patient. We don't have even a firm handle on how much pain Schaivo is in. But we know with certainty that d/c'ing food will be extraordinarily painful. That's the difference in this case for me. Arguments predicated on "ending suffering", I think, presume she is actually suffering, with little evidence to support that view.

As I've said, I see both sides of this argument and it is a difficult one. I just want to make clear, in case there is any doubt, that because this is a difficult human decision, the courts, legislature etc ad nauseum have no business messing about with it.

bcnu,
Mikem

Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
God Bless America.

Post #199,724

3/21/05 11:58:06 AM

Amazingly enough, I find myself on the same side as you

I do not see how the decision of killing Mrs Shiavo will benefit anyone, except may be financially. I woudl also like to add that if you hear what he parents say, we do have a number of sick/retarded small kids in various institution who function at her level. Nobody proposes to starve them to death, yet.

OT: you made two quotes in this thread that I will sure to remember to you at some point later on:

"Reason alone is insufficient to deal with matters of humanity."

and

"I only know what the press has reported and what Republicans have reported."

Post #199,726

3/21/05 12:11:55 PM

She won't recover...

...because her brain is physically, actually gone.

The civilised thing to do is to jack up the pain relief and let her die with whatever dignity she's got left.

Post #199,733

3/21/05 12:25:48 PM

Can you point me at an article that describes

how the conclusion that "the brain is dead" has been reached?

According to my coworker, the doctor who was the main witness to that spent 45 minutes with the patient, did not do PET or MRI scans, and testified in 6 such cases in 5 years, always with "brain dead" conclusion. And, the husband blocked any attempts to get second opinion.

Post #199,753

3/21/05 1:44:55 PM

Re: Can you point me at an article that describes

Examine page 4 of the following PDF document, which is the decision of the SCF in the Bush v. Schiavo case:\r\n
\r\n[link|http://news.findlaw.com/hdocs/docs/schiavo/flsct92304opn.pdf|http://news.findlaw....flsct92304opn.pdf]\r\n
\r\n

By mid 1996, the CAT scans of her brain showed a\r\nseverely abnormal structure. At this point, much of her cerebral\r\ncortex is simply gone and has been replaced by cerebral spinal fluid.\r\nMedicine cannot cure this condition. Unless an act of God, a true\r\nmiracle, were to recreate her brain, Theresa will always remain in an\r\nunconscious, reflexive state, totally dependent upon others to feed her\r\nand care for her most private needs.

Post #199,758

3/21/05 1:56:10 PM

3/21/05 1:57:39 PM

Oh, that's different then.

A computer said she was brain dead. That must be right, then. :-p

[Edit]: And if she is a "total care" case and her mother and father want to do that for her, what exactly is anyone else's standing to challenge that? A in-all-but-letter ex-husband? Feh.

bcnu,
Mikem

Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
God Bless America.

Edited by mmoffitt March 21, 2005, 01:57:39 PM EST

Expand All History

Post #199,761

3/21/05 2:01:28 PM

Please read Abstract Appeal.

[link|http://abstractappeal.com/schiavo/infopage.html#qanda|Here]:

Why did Terri\ufffds husband get to make the decision about whether she should live or die?

Michael Schiavo did not make the decision to discontinue life-prolonging measures for Terri.

As Terri's husband, Michael has been her guardian and her surrogate decision-maker. By 1998, though -- eight years after the trauma that produced Terri's situation -- Michael and Terri's parents disagreed over the proper course for her.

Rather than make the decision himself, Michael followed a procedure permitted by Florida courts by which a surrogate such as Michael can petition a court, asking the court to act as the ward's surrogate and determine what the ward would decide to do. Michael did this, and based on statements Terri made to him and others, he took the position that Terri would not wish to continue life-prolonging measures. The Schindlers took the position that Terri would continue life-prolonging measures. Under this procedure, the trial court becomes the surrogate decision-maker, and that is what happened in this case.

The trial court in this case held a trial on the dispute. Both sides were given opportunities to present their views and the evidence supporting those views. Afterwards, the trial court determined that, even applying the "clear and convincing evidence" standard -- the highest burden of proof used in civil cases -- the evidence showed that Terri would not wish to continue life-prolonging measures.

Later on it says:

Recently, Michael received an offer of $1 million, and perhaps a second offer of $10 million, to walk away from this case and permit Terri's parents to care for her. These offers, assuming there were two, were based on a misunderstanding of the situation here. Michael lacks the power to undo the court order determining Terri's wishes and requiring the removal of her feeding tube. He did not make the decision and cannot unmake it. The court made the decision on Terri's behalf. Nonetheless, Michael apparently rejected each offer.

The decision is in accordance with Terri's wishes and that's what matters.

Cheers,
Scott.

Post #199,763

3/21/05 2:04:11 PM

And my question still stands.

If parents want to care for a child, whose right is it to take that opportunity away from the parents? I don't know what idiots in FL decided that the courts should take that right away - but there's a lot of things about Floridians that I don't understand.

bcnu,
Mikem

Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
God Bless America.

Post #199,765

3/21/05 2:07:23 PM

Parents don't own their grown children.

Post #199,796

3/21/05 3:52:46 PM

They don't "own" wee ones either ;0)

bcnu,
Mikem

Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
God Bless America.

Post #199,799

3/21/05 3:56:47 PM

No, but they are legally responsible unless they're over 18.

I've requested longer subject lines, but we can't have everything. (Where would we put it?)

Her parents have no say in what happens to Terry. She made her wishes clear and that's what has to determine the decision. She was over 18.

It really is as simple as that.

Cheers,
Scott.

Post #199,802

3/21/05 4:01:53 PM

Except that we depend upon hearsay for that.

And there is the ambiguity. Where'd I put that other post about a living will?

bcnu,
Mikem

Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
God Bless America.

Post #199,809

3/21/05 4:18:02 PM

There was Clear and Convincing proof according to the courts

Post #199,811

3/21/05 4:31:36 PM

I'm lazy. Link where she in her own hand ....

requested not to be fed?

bcnu,
Mikem

Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
God Bless America.

Post #199,814

3/21/05 4:40:58 PM

Oh, for goodness' sake.

She's got no cerebral cortex!

She'll NEVER be able to do ANYTHING that requires conscious thought, because the part of her brain that deals with that is GONE. The tragedy is that people are fighting to keep alive that which cannot think or feel emotion. It's a machine. The least worst thing anyone can do for Terri is let her die.

What are you fighting for? The right to be kept alive at any cost, no matter the prognosis or unlikelihood of recovery? The right to override the advice of doctors, the wishes of next of kin, and the tatters of patient dignity? Do you want decisions in cases like this to be made by a collection of people in nice suits with corporate puppet masters and a weather eye on their own re-election?

Post #199,824

3/21/05 4:57:22 PM

Huh?

She's got no cerebral cortex!
Now, apparently, that's true. See my lamenting no "living will" in the other forum.

The right to override the advice of doctors, ...
Um, I think I've pointed out the danger of over-reliance upon the wisdom of clinicians.

the wishes of next of kin, ...
Um, no, I've said that if her parents want to care for her, they should be allowed to.

Do you want decisions in cases like this to be made by a collection of people in nice suits with corporate puppet masters and a weather eye on their own re-election?
Um, no. I want the family to decide. Her parents were always and always will be her family. Her ex-husband was transitory family. By turning this over to the courts, the COURTS ferchrissakes, he committed an act so heinous that words fail. You want to leave it up to that turd? The guy who said, "Yeah, I've got a wife. But, hey, she's sick. So I'll go bang somebody else that's a little more lively - but I won't divorce my wife first because I care so much about her."

bcnu,
Mikem

Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
God Bless America.

Post #199,827

3/21/05 5:00:40 PM

On what ethical basis do you want the family to decide?

Why should they have the right to prolong what might be a very painful existence and one which at the very least is humiliating in the extreme?

Where does Terri's dignity and quality of life come into this? Do you factor anything in except the feelings of people who, when all is said and done, aren't in that hospital bed?

And you really need to go and read the legals on the husband's role in all this.

Post #199,834

3/21/05 5:07:34 PM

According to your own words, Terri has no feelings

If you were consistent, you would agree that the only people who should be considered are those who "aren't in that hospital bed". Do you ascribe dignity to a vegetable? Or do you think she is not a vegetable after all?

Post #199,836

3/21/05 5:14:23 PM

Distinguish between "feeling" and "feelings"

There's sensation and there's emotion. They're not the same.

My point is that we cannot know what Terri's body is feeling in the former sense; she may be in great pain.

It is my firm belief that in cases like this the patients' lives are artificially prolonged for the sole benefit of the relatives. That's wrong, in my view.

And sooner or later, that tube will be withdrawn and Terri will be allowed to die.

The compassionate thing to do would be to do that now and let her parents get on with grieving their daughter.

Post #199,837

3/21/05 5:14:39 PM

I disagree.

In Florida, and in much of the US, there is the fundamental right of a person to decide whether to refuse or accept medical treatment. Courts have found that Terri stated, on numerous occasions, that she would not want to be kept alive when there was no hope. A person does not lose the right to have those wishes respected when they can no longer act.

Cheers,
Scott.

Post #199,906

3/22/05 8:43:00 AM

"Stated her wishes" completely overblown.

It's noble as hell to say, "I don't want to be on a ventilator. I don't want heroics." It's also easier than hell to say when there is not immediate danger of that occuring. When did she say that? In her 20's - the age of immortality?

I've seen far too many patients 180 on that sentiment once they actually need life support.

The best course (and not coincidentally the course which would have avoided all of this mess) would have been for her husband to do the decent thing once there was a disagreement between him and her parents about continuing care. He should have divorced her. If not at that very moment, he sure as hell should have divorced her when he knocked up another woman the first time.

Don't like what's happening? Then keep in mind it is exclusively because of her husband's indecency.

bcnu,
Mikem

Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
God Bless America.

Post #199,911

3/22/05 8:51:56 AM

Your objections ignore her wishes.

Distrusting doctors and the courts does not change the fact that many people have said what her wishes are based on what she said. You haven't presented any evidence of the contrary.

You're wanting to impose the wishes of her parents on her. That can't happen if liberty means anything.

You're simply wrong about this Mike.

IMO, of course.

Cheers,
Scott.

Post #199,912

3/22/05 8:56:16 AM

3/22/05 8:58:23 AM

I don't know what her wishes are.

And no one does. We know what a young person, secure in the "knowledge" that she would not likely be put on any life support for decades, said she wanted. And only if we listen to hearsay. But if she wants anything now and what it might be is plainly unknowable.

bcnu,
Mikem

Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
God Bless America.

Edited by mmoffitt March 22, 2005, 08:58:23 AM EST

Expand All History

Post #199,917

3/22/05 10:26:40 AM

One more time.

Please read the court records.

[link|http://abstractappeal.com/schiavo/trialctorder02-00.pdf|Here] (10 page .pdf) is Judge Green's order from 2/11/2000:

There are no written declarations by Terri Schiavo as to her intention with regard to this issue. Therefore, the court is left with oral declarations allegedly made to parties and non-parties as to her feelings on this subject. The testimony before this court reveals that she made comments or statements to five (5) persons, including her husband and her mother.

There was a lot of testimony concerning the Karen Ann Quinlin [sic] case in New Jersey. Mrs. Schindler testified that her daughter made comments during the television news reports of the father\ufffds attempts to have life support removed to the effect that they should just leave her (Karen Ann Quinlin [sic]) alone. Mrs. Schindler first testified that those comments were made when Terri was between 17-20 years of age but after being shown copies of newspaper accounts agreed that whe was 11 perhaps 12 years of age at the time. A witness recalled by Respondents testified to similar conversations with Terri Schiavo but stated that they occurred during the summer of 1982. While that witness appeared believeable at the offset [sic], the court noted two quotes from the discussion between she and Terri Schiavo which raise serious questions about the time frame. Both quotes are in the present tense and upon cross-examination, the witness did not alter them. The first quote involved a bad joke and used the verb \ufffdis\ufffd. The second quote involved the response from Terri Schiavo which used the word \ufffdare\ufffd. The court is mystified as to how these present tense verbs would have been used some six years after the death of Karen Ann Quinlin [sic]. The court further notes that this witness had quite specific memory during the trial but much less memory a few weeks earlier on deposition. At trial she mentioned seeing the television movie on Karen Ann Quinlin [sic] and had no hesitantly [sic] in testifying that this was a \ufffdreplay\ufffd of that movie and she watched such replay at college in Pennsylvania. She also knew precisely what song appeared on a TV program on a Friday evening when Petitioner was away at McDonald\ufffds training school. While the court certainly does not conclude the the [sic] bad joke and comment did not occur, the court is drawn to the conclusion that this discussion most likely occurred in the same time frame as the similar comments to Mrs. Schindler. This could well have occurred during this time frame since this witness and Terri Schiavo, together with their families, spent portions of summer vacation together which would have included the mid-1970\ufffds.

Michael Schiavo testified as to a few discussion he had with his wife concerning life support. The Guardian Ad Litem felt that this testimony standing alone would not rise to clear and convincing evidence of her intent. The court is not required to ruse on this issue since it does have the benefit of testimony of his brother and sister-in-law. As the witness called by the Respondents, the court had the testimony of the brother and sister-in-law trascribed so that the court would not be hamstrung by relying upon its notes. The court has reviewed the testimony of Scott Schiavo and Joan Schiavo and finds nothing contained theirin to be unreliable. The court notes that neither of these witenesses appeared to have shaded his or her testimony or even attempt to exclude unfavorable commments or points regarding those discussions. They were not impeached on cross-examination. Argument is made as to why they waited so long to step forward but their explanations are worthy of belief. The testimony of Ms. Bever;y Tyler, Executive Director of Georgia Health Discoveries, clearly establishes that the expressions made by Terri Schiavo to these witnesses are the type of expressions made in those types of situations as would be expected by people in this country in that age group at that time. They (statements) reflect underlying values of independence, quality of life, not to be a burden and so forth. \ufffdHooked up to a machine\ufffd means they do not want life artificially extended when there is no hope of improvement.

[\ufffd]

There are some comments or statement [sic] made by Terri Schiavo which the court does not feel are germane to this decision. The court does not feel that statements made by her at the age of 11 or 12 years truly reflect upon her intention regarding the situation at hand. Additionally, the court does not feel that her statements directed toward others and situations involving others would have the same weight as comments or statements regarding herself if personally placed in those same situations. Into the former category the court places statements regarding Karen Ann Quinlin [sic] and the infant child of the friend of Joan Schiavo. The court finds that those statements are more reflective of what Terri Schiavo would do in a similar situation for someone else.

The court does find that Terri Schiavo did make statements which are creditable and reliable with regard to her intention to given the situation at hand. Incidently, there is no question that Terri Schiavo does not pose a burden financially to anyone and this would appear to be a safe assumption for the foreseeable future. However, the court notes the term \ufffdburden\ufffd is not restricted solely to dollars and cents since one can also be a burden to others emotionally and physically. Statements which Terri Schiavo made which do support the relief sought by her surrogate (Petitioner/Guardian) include statements to him prompted by her grandmother being in intensive care that if she was ever a burden she would not want to live like that. Additionally, statements made to Miciael Schiavo which were prompted by something on television regarding people on life support that she wold not want to life [sic] like that also reflect her intention in this particular situation. Also the statements she made in the presence of Scott Schiavo at the funeral luncheon for his grandmother that \ufffdif I ever go like that just let me go. Don\ufffdt leave me there. I don\ufffdt want to be kept alive on a machine,\ufffd and to Joan Schiavo following a television movie in which a man following an accident was in a coma to the effect that she wanted it stated in her will that she would want the tubes and everything taken out if that ever happened to her are likewise reflective of this intent. The court specifically finds that these statements are Terri Schiavo\ufffds oral declarations concerning her intention as to what she would want done under the present circumstances and the testimony regarding such oral declarations is reliable, is creditable and rises to the level of clear and convincing evidence to this court.

Typos are mine except where indicated by [sic].

HTH.

Cheers,
Scott.

Post #199,919

3/22/05 10:44:40 AM

You know what insanity is, right?

Repeating the same thing and expecting different results. We have the husband, his family and a flaky witness to go on wrt "her wishes". The mother - and this contradicts what I heard from an interview with the husband last night - is news to me. He was asked why Terri had "never said anything about her wishes to her own blood relations" and he did not dispute that and, in effect, put it that this is something you wouldn't discuss with blood relations (is that also to be believed?). That Terri had apparently said something to her mother related to this issue was news to me, I'll admit. I'll concede that point of my ignorance and then not hesitate to reject it as irrelevant. You should, too, unless, of course, you're happy to hold an adult in life and death matters to what they said when they were 11 or 12.

Because a judge believed a philandering husband and his kin offers little (if any) proof of what "her wishes" were. And I find it curious that all the folks in favor of starving her simultaneously argue that "she has no ability to think" and that we "should honor her wishes". That is amazing.

bcnu,
Mikem

Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
God Bless America.

Post #199,920

3/22/05 11:07:40 AM

Yeah.

Takes one to know one. :-D

Let's step back a bit.

Why would Michael be doing what he's been doing if he didn't think that's what she wanted? If he were a heartless cur only in it for the money, wouldn't he have taken the $1M or more that was offered? Wouldn't he have divorced his wife long ago and left her to her parents?

Oh, I forgot, he's just a heartless cur who enjoys being vilified.

[image|/forums/images/warning.png|0|This is sarcasm...]

I guess I'm done for a while.

Cheers,
Scott.

Post #199,925

3/22/05 11:45:54 AM

Wait for the movie rights. ;0)

He'll get his millions ;0)

bcnu,
Mikem

Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
God Bless America.

Post #199,926

3/22/05 11:54:47 AM

Ha!

Your simultaneous cynicism and idealism amaze me.

:-)

Cheers,
Scott.

Post #199,930

3/22/05 11:57:19 AM

:-)

bcnu,
Mikem

Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
God Bless America.

Post #199,936

3/22/05 1:21:41 PM

Exactly

It's unknowable, because she no longer inhabits her body.

--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton                            jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca]                   [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada               [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------

Post #199,937

3/22/05 1:44:25 PM

Maybe she does, maybe she doesn't.

Is it likely that she does? Probably not. Is there any evidence to support that she does? None I am aware of. But before we get all certain of the near-deity like certainty of the vaunted practitioners of western medicine we must remember that at one point we thought that people under anesthesia could not hear us and could not feel any pain. That's what our physicians told us. And it turned out to be not true in all cases. A fact that they, the physicians, themselves had to later acknowledge.

I still find some irony here. It seems to me that you cannot have it both ways. If, as you say, she "no longer inhabits her body" then did her desires survive that body? Proponents of starvation seem to be saying "what her wishes were should be the standard" but if she's "already dead" what relevance is there to her wishes?

I've said all I can say on this subject. No one has asked me the question I was anticipating, so I'll ask it of myself. "What if it was my wife?" And the answer is "I don't know." But I would probably remove her feeding tube. She has told me that's what she wants (now), but I don't know if I could intentionally starve her to death. Fortunately, with my great girth and poor family history wrt hearts, I probably won't ever have to find out how I'd answer that question.

What I do know is that there is no way on earth I would live with another women and sire children by her as long as I remained married to her. And I sure as hell would not turn the matter over to any third party - as was done in this case.

bcnu,
Mikem

Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
God Bless America.

Post #199,939

3/22/05 1:51:05 PM

Concur

If she did not want to be "kept alive at all costs", then she should be "put to sleep", but not starved to death. The method is what bothers me. 'Twas my wife, I'd find a way to "humanely" execute her. (My wife has said she wouldn't want to be kept alive). But I wouldn't starve her to death.

A good friend will come and bail you out of jail ... but, a true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "Damn...that was fun!"

Post #199,943

3/22/05 2:09:26 PM

well, there's the problem

You certainly can't legally do that.

So, what are the remaining options for Schiavo? They are what they're doing.

Her husband waited for five years to see if she would come back. That actually makes him exceptionally devoted, esp. today. He clearly thinks she IS dead in any real meaning of the word, even if her parents have refused to accept it, and have managed to use the courts to impose their interpretation of the situation on everybody else, including the hubby as well as on Terry herself.

If his reasonable conclusion and the conclusion of all the other people (including what, four or five court-appointed guardians to look into her case and make a recommendation to the court) are that she's in all real respects dead, I don't think you can really blame him for moving on, or for having children.

A year or so ago, I saw one of those medical shows where a construction worker had taken a tumble and landed on his head. The doctors at the hospital managed to get everything going again, but not before irreperable brain damage had occurred, leaving him effectively flatlined. They ended up pulling the plug 12 hours later. According to the kind of formulation mmoffit using here, they should keep him on the machines indefinitely, as those machines are not functionally any different from the feeding tube; the main difference between unplugging that guy from the ventilator and Schiavo from the tube is that he kicks off in a few minutes while she gets to linger for weeks.

As Peter said, "can she swallow for herself?"

--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton                            jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca]                   [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada               [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------

Post #199,964

3/22/05 3:27:51 PM

I don't blame him for moving on.

But he should have had at least the decency to divorce her first.

bcnu,
Mikem

Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
God Bless America.

Post #199,968

3/22/05 3:34:03 PM

What if he's Catholic?

What if he thinks that his wife never wanted to have and would have hated the thought of her twilight existence, and that divorcing here would mean leaving care decisions to her parents, dooming her to it for as long as they could come up with the dough?

Perhaps his efforts on getting the plug pulled are actually motivated by his love for his wife, regardless of the fact that fifteen years' worth of water has passed under the bridge since she died in all the ways that matter.

--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton                            jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca]                   [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada               [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------

Post #199,969

by hnick

3/22/05 3:35:13 PM

'Till death do you part...

No need for a divorce. You won't agree of course. That's fine.

Post #200,068

3/23/05 8:17:10 AM

PVS != Dead.

bcnu,
Mikem

Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
God Bless America.

Post #200,084

by hnick

3/23/05 8:50:08 AM

No squash == dead

Once the higher brain is gone, so is the person. The body is just meat, not a person. Ruin the body and preserve the brain and you still have a person (Steven Hawking comes to mind.) Kill the brain, the person is no longer. Neither is the marriage.

Again, I don't expect you to agree with me.

That's OK too, as long as I don't have to live by your expectations of humanity.

Post #200,086

3/23/05 9:04:16 AM

Nobody but me does, unfortunately ;0)

bcnu,
Mikem

Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
God Bless America.

Post #200,087

by hnick

3/23/05 9:11:43 AM

when everybody else is consistantly wrong,

and only you are right, it may be time to reconsider your position.
If you always have to think outside the box, it may be time to fix the box...

or not... sometimes one person is right and everybody else is wrong.

Post #200,199

by boxley

3/23/05 6:42:18 PM

hey none of that!

Post #200,019

3/22/05 9:26:32 PM

Decency?

She died. Divorce implies an unsuccessful marriage - a release from vows - a loss of faith. He has been beyond faithful - rather than take the easy way out he has shown amazing devotion. He is enduring tremendous hardship to carry out her wishes.

That's real love, that is.

Post #200,020

by boxley

3/22/05 9:27:15 PM

agreed

Post #200,023

by drewk

3/22/05 9:33:12 PM

Can we also agree ... (new thread)

Created as new thread #200022 titled [link|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=200022|Can we also agree ...]

===

Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]

Post #200,065

3/23/05 8:13:09 AM

Right, like the $300,000 he took.

GMAFB. She wasn't dead when he left her. She will be shortly.

And I'll bet he constantly harped on her about being fat, too.

bcnu,
Mikem

Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
God Bless America.

Post #200,070

by boxley

3/23/05 8:22:48 AM

well she was a puker, finally getting her wish

all those years he visited, laughing and gloating at her, poking her with stick, yeah, thats the ticket that will get this overturned. Whatever it takes to attack someone whose actions you dont like. Politics of personaldestruction eh what?
thanx,
bill

Post #200,075

3/23/05 8:30:41 AM

Don't need to make stuff up.

He knocked up one woman (twice!) while married to another. Call me a puritan, but that's just plain old wrong. And much as many here would like it to be, permanent vegetative state and dead are not the same thing.

bcnu,
Mikem

Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
God Bless America.

Post #200,077

by Silverlock

3/23/05 8:33:25 AM

The body isn't dead

The person is.

Post #200,088

3/23/05 9:18:55 AM

A long time ago, ...

I was an orderly at a hospital in rural NC. We had a 37 year old male patient come in with a massive stroke. He was unresponsive, but breathing. This was back before HMO's, so he stayed on at the hospital for roughly a year. The whole time, unresponsive. He was breathing, but he was a turn every two hours, feeding tube, etc. patient. His wife visited frequently. Then, iirc almost a year after his admission she came in and sat with him for about 30 minutes. She left crying. After she left, the patient rose up in his bed briefly and then moaned horribly. Later I found out that his wife came to tell him she'd met some one else. We were encouraged by his movement because this is the first time any of us had seen him move and I'd been shaving him every day for almost a year. (Most of the time his pupils didn't respond to light stimulus). He eventually got to the point where he could move his head and shoulders as well as swallow, so we could feed him with a spoon. He was discharged to a nursing home. I still remember this guy 25 years later. I know his name and I'll never forget his reaction after his wife left.

I, like the rest of the medical staff, would have bet the ranch that he would never make any sort of recovery - the damage to his brain was extensive because of the stroke. But he recovered enough to respond to people, eat and he did regain some movement. It wasn't much of a life, but he was still alive.

bcnu,
Mikem

Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
God Bless America.

Post #200,093

3/23/05 9:32:21 AM

There's a slight difference

Your patient "recovered enough to respond to people, eat and he did regain some movement". From what I've read, Terry won't.

I agree with you. I believe that letting her starve is wrong. But there should be some alternative. If her parents wish to keep her alive with feeding, they should be granted that permission.

I also agree with your assessment of her husband. Since he "gave up custody" to the courts, he should have divorced her, especially if he decided to establish a relationship with another woman.

There's no easy answer. I disagree with both extremes... save her at any cost and let her starve. I also think that Congress & Bush made a mistake in passing a bill specifically for one individual.

A good friend will come and bail you out of jail ... but, a true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "Damn...that was fun!"

Post #200,108

3/23/05 10:27:38 AM

I don't think we disagree at all.

bcnu,
Mikem

Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
God Bless America.

Post #200,101

3/23/05 9:57:09 AM

Another Christian view

From the StarTribune.

[link|http://www.startribune.com/stories/1519/5307756.html|God is merciful enough to offer life beyond feeding tubes]

A good friend will come and bail you out of jail ... but, a true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "Damn...that was fun!"

Post #200,140

3/23/05 2:00:16 PM

Year? Because she died in 1990. (new thread)

Created as new thread #200139 titled [link|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=200139|Year? Because she died in 1990.]

Post #199,944

3/22/05 2:09:33 PM

3/22/05 9:58:48 PM

Trouble is, there's no legal way to do that.

The USSC has ruled that there's no right to assisted suicide or euthanasia. Cases like this illustrate that that opinion should be revisited, IMO.

If it's any consolation, her body will die of dehydration not starvation.

:-(

[edit:] [link|http://www.sptimes.com/2005/03/19/Tampabay/An_image_to_make_stom.shtml|St. Petersburg Times]:

The heart of the issue for some is whether Schiavo will suffer as she dies after the feeding tube is removed. [Stephen] Mernoff says she will not.

"People think that's a terrible way to go, but that's because they think of starvation as it would feel to them, people who are totally conscious and aware of their surroundings," he said. "In a case like this, however, the patient will feel nothing at first, then will experience renal failure, lapse quickly and painlessly into a coma and then expire. It is actually very peaceful."

FWIW.

Cheers,
Scott.

Edited by Another Scott March 22, 2005, 09:58:48 PM EST

Expand All History

Post #199,967

3/22/05 3:31:15 PM

It'd be interesting to see if that option were available ...

what, if any, difference it would make to people's opinions. I finally had a chance to talk to my wife about this last night (she's been an R.N. for 23 years). She said that while she didn't want to be the one to remove the tube, she wasn't opposed to the idea. Then I said something like, "Well, you know how painful that could be for the patient. I've heard some advocate for a lethal injection." She actually whinced, then frowned when I said that.

bcnu,
Mikem

Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
God Bless America.

Post #200,003

by boxley

3/22/05 6:53:55 PM

Oh, you mean like Newt Gingrich? thats the "decent" thing?

Post #200,072

3/23/05 8:28:13 AM

Apple/Orange.

bcnu,
Mikem

Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
God Bless America.

Post #199,857

by boxley

3/21/05 6:51:59 PM

well who is going to pay for that?

I have yet to see a copy of a check to a nursing home from the parents. Terri won a court case that gave her 700k for treatment. She has been in nursing homes for 15 years plus some very expensive treatment in the beginning, If the parents can prove that they can "pay" for the care, maybe, but since it will in all likelyhood that you and I will be paying for the vegetable's upkeep, let her have her own wishes. Otherwise when you visit florida make sure to go to the hospital and water your plant. You will be paying for it.
thanx,
boxley

Post #199,860

3/21/05 7:15:24 PM

Her nursing home care is free. Can't find where I read that.

Post #199,862

by boxley

3/21/05 7:21:44 PM

cant find a hard link but medicaid is only for the broke

and she might have already used the 700k settlement, those places are expensive. Michael is still married to her and so is obligated for her bills, Im sure he is paying something,
thanx,
bill

Post #199,866

3/21/05 7:37:57 PM

This isn't it, but supports my recollection.

[link|http://209.157.64.200/focus/f-news/1363122/posts|Bonnie Erbe]:

Michael Schiavo's lawyer, George Felos, told reporters there once was a trust fund containing almost $800,000 (won in a malpractice case) to support Terry Schiavo's abundant medical expenses. That has been whittled down to near extinction. Felos says Schiavo's costs during the past few years have been borne by a confusing and twisted agglomeration of Social Security disability benefits, Medicaid and a corporate hospice fund for indigent patients.

The story I read earlier said something like the hospice/nursing home was caring for her without cost to the family.

Cheers,
Scott.

Post #199,867

by boxley

3/21/05 7:45:03 PM

so that takes "its the husband wanting the money " out of it

Post #199,868

3/21/05 7:52:58 PM

Not among the conspiracy theorists... :-(

Post #199,908

3/22/05 8:45:59 AM

Watch for a book.

bcnu,
Mikem

Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
God Bless America.

Post #199,907

3/22/05 8:44:34 AM

I always knew you were a closet-Bushie.

That's what then Govenor Bush signed into law. If the family can't pay then hospitals have the right to unplug the patient even over family objections.

bcnu,
Mikem

Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
God Bless America.

Post #200,004

by boxley

3/22/05 6:58:39 PM

too bad hes not consistant :-)

Post #199,819

3/21/05 4:49:44 PM

It wasn't written, but her views were clear.

[link|http://news.findlaw.com/hdocs/docs/schiavo/flsct92304opn.pdf|Findlaw] (.pdf):

For the first three years after this tragedy, Michael and Theresa\ufffds parents, Robert and Mary Schindler, enjoyed an amicable relationship. However, that relationship ended in 1993 and the parties literally stopped speaking to each other. In May of 1998, eight years after Theresa lost consciousness, Michael petitioned the guardianship court to authorize the termination of life-prolonging procedures. See id. By filing this petition, which the Schindlers opposed, Michael placed the difficult decision in the hands of the court.

After a trial, at which both Michael and the Schindlers presented evidence, the guardianship court issued an extensive written order authorizing the discontinuance of artificial life support. The trial court found by clear and convincing evidence that Theresa Schiavo was in a persistent vegetative state and that Theresa would elect to cease life-prolonging procedures if she were competent to make her own decision. This order was affirmed on direct appeal, see Schiavo I, 780 So. 2d at 177, and we denied review. See In re Guardianship of Schiavo, 789 So. 2d 348 (Fla. 2001).

Feel free to dig up those Florida Circuit Court rulings, and the appeals, if you want to disagree with the court.

Cheers,
Scott.

Post #199,825

3/21/05 4:58:53 PM

Thanks, but I don't need to dig.

See, my position is (and always has been - if I've said otherwise I can't find it) that this decision should never have been left to the courts.

bcnu,
Mikem

Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
God Bless America.

Post #199,833

3/21/05 5:05:30 PM

Then no decision would ever be made for Terri.

It's nice to say that it should stay in the family, but if the family disagrees there has to be a way to decide what the patient wants. A disinterested court is the best place.

"If you choose not to decide you still have made a choice." - N. Peart.

Cheers,
Scott.

Post #199,909

3/22/05 8:47:15 AM

Pretty loose with that word "family".

See above. The husband does the right thing, nobody ever hears the name Schaivo.

bcnu,
Mikem

Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
God Bless America.

Post #199,854

3/21/05 6:45:40 PM

You really need to move to Texas...

If parents want to care for a child, whose right is it to take that opportunity away from the parents? I don't know what idiots in FL decided that the courts should take that right away - but there's a lot of things about Floridians that I don't understand.

They make Florida look sane.

Post #199,905

3/22/05 8:35:10 AM

Insane?

It's insane to suggest that if the parents want to care for her, they should be allowed to? Wow. Not much for liberty are you?

bcnu,
Mikem

Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
God Bless America.

Post #200,124

3/23/05 12:59:59 PM

Look at the law in Texas...

that Bush signed.

If Doctors feel that the treatment isn't working (even over the objects of the parents/legal guardians) they give the family 10 days to find a place that will take them or they pull the plug.

And yes, in my book, that makes Florida look sane.

Post #200,127

3/23/05 1:02:04 PM

Ah. Misunderstood. Agree.

bcnu,
Mikem

Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
God Bless America.

Post #200,109

3/23/05 10:27:50 AM

And here is a second opinion that disagrees with the first

And, the CAT scan picture is available, so have your own doctor take a look.

[link|http://codeblueblog.blogs.com/codeblueblog/2005/03/csi_medblogs_co.html|http://codeblueblog...._medblogs_co.html]

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
The most alarming thing about this image, however, is that there certainly is cortex left. Granted, it is severely thinned, especially for Terri's age, but I would be nonplussed if you told me that this was a 75 year old female who was somewhat senile but fully functional, and I defy a radiologist anywhere to contest that.

I HAVE SEEN MANY WALKING, TALKING, FAIRLY COHERENT PEOPLE WITH WORSE CEREBRAL/CORTICAL ATROPHY. THEREFORE, THIS IS IN NO WAY PRIMA FACIE EVIDENCE THAT TERRI SCHIAVO'S MENTAL ABILITIES OR/OR CAPABILITIES ARE COMPLETELY ERADICATED. I CANNOT BELIEVE SUCH TESTIMONY HAS BEEN GIVEN ON THE BASIS OF THIS SCAN.

The worrisome, no alarming thing, for me, was that I heard a bioethicist and several important figures on the major media describe Terri's brain as MUCH WORSE. One "expert" said that she had a "bag of water" in her head. Several experts described her as a "brain stem preparation"

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Post #199,757

3/21/05 1:53:29 PM

Oxymoron alert.

"Die with dignity". That can only be uttered by some one who has never actually seen anyone die first-hand. There is nothing dignified about dying.

bcnu,
Mikem

Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
God Bless America.

Post #199,759

3/21/05 1:58:17 PM

You forget. :-( Anyway...

It's shorthand.

Her body could be kept "alive" for the next 60 years or more. But it's contrary to her exprressed wishes.

Remember Peter's posts from a few months ago. Let's try to keep this away from ad hominem.

Cheers,
Scott.

Post #199,760

3/21/05 2:01:20 PM

Okay, but that's a hot-button phrase for me.

I've seen a lot of people die (working in hospitals for roughly 7 years - attended every code on all of my shifts). This "die with dignity" crap lights my wick. In the same sense that "We will accept no peace without honor."

bcnu,
Mikem

Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
God Bless America.

Post #199,767

3/21/05 2:17:22 PM

Stop right there.

I know what I'm talking about.

Post #199,770

by imric

3/21/05 2:31:58 PM

No.

You CAN 'die with dignity'. It can be something that you want. It can be something you are deprived of.

And I've been there while loved ones died.

I held my Grandfather's hand while he died.

Dignity is something the doctors tried like hell to deprive my Mother of.

It is NOT an oxymoron.

[link|http://www.runningworks.com|

]

Imric's Tips for Living

Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.

Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.

Post #199,771

3/21/05 2:34:01 PM

*nod*

Post #199,798

3/21/05 3:53:48 PM

"Do not go gentle into that good night." YMMV.

bcnu,
Mikem

Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
God Bless America.

Post #199,800

3/21/05 3:58:04 PM

It is more dignified than

drooling and having your nappies changed thrice a day long after your spirit has moved on.

Anyhow, the key element to my mind is that Terri's intent was made known to multiple people and should be carried out. To do otherwise is to dishonor her.

The videos you see on sites like [link|http://www.terrisfight.org/|http://www.terrisfight.org/] are apparently seeing bunnies in the clouds. The "responses" to stimuli are apparently random and not repeatable.

Post #199,804

3/21/05 4:03:59 PM

Well, imo, ...

we come into the world as babies and we go out pretty much the same way. Drooling, soiling diapers, having to be fed, etc. viewed in this light is part of the normal course. Hence not un-dignified. ;0)

bcnu,
Mikem

Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
God Bless America.

Post #199,806

3/21/05 4:13:41 PM

Over-generalised nonsense, but hey.

Post #199,914

3/22/05 9:21:05 AM

Ever worked in a nursing home?

bcnu,
Mikem

Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
God Bless America.

Post #199,858

by boxley

3/21/05 6:54:35 PM

about dying maybe, about choice of surroundings, yes

not in a hospital, hopefully outdoors where I can see the stars, and smell the land
thanx,
bill

Post #199,609

3/20/05 2:19:55 PM

Final whack at the horse in the PVS

A fairly objective assemblage of events and supporting legal documents on the whole mess.

[link|http://abstractappeal.com/schiavo/infopage.html|http://abstractappea...avo/infopage.html]

Post #199,614

by boxley

3/20/05 3:51:41 PM

froma quote in there, and the fact that 4 were arrested

trying to take terri some bread and water,

Judge Greer denies petition for more swallowing tests, finds it uncontested Terri cannot swallow sufficiently to live

maybe they should just let the squirrels in and feed her, end it quicker.
thanx,
bill

Post #199,617

3/20/05 4:15:43 PM

Thanks.

Post #199,622

3/20/05 4:58:21 PM

Parliamentary maneuvering continues.

[link|http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A51402-2005Mar20?language=printer|Washington Post]:

House Majority Leader Tom DeLay (R-Tex.), who pushed Congress to consider the legislation, said yesterday that he is "confident that this compromise will restore nutrition and hydration to Ms. Schiavo as long as that appeal endures."

DeLay said he did not know if it would mean she would be spared indefinitely. "That's not the point," he said. "The point is that Terri Schiavo should have the opportunity. We should investigate every avenue before we take the life of a living human being, and that's the very least we can do for her."

The gall of DeLay to make a statement like that, considering his [link|http://activote.ontheissues.org/AVA/House/Tom_DeLay.htm|position on the death penalty and habeas corpus], that is unbelievable. It's clear to me that he's doing this because he thinks the Republicans can get political advantage from it.

Continuing from the WP story:

House members today were scrambling to return to Washington from across the country. Leaders acknowledged yesterday that they expected some Democrats to object to the legislation, which would prevent the bill from passing in the House under rules available for today. So House leaders said they are likely to have to meet again, at 12:01 a.m. Monday, when they can put the bill on a calendar that would deny Democrats some ways to stall action.

With lawmakers scattered from Iraq to Australia, leaders hope to use parliamentary methods -- such as a voice vote rather than a roll call -- to pass the bills without calling back their entire memberships.

They feel so strongly about the importance of this legislation, but they aren't willing to have their members put their name on a vote. Hmmm.

House Majority Whip Roy Blunt (R-Mo.) said yesterday that the outcome is clear and that it is "just how we get there." He said that if Democrats demand a roll call vote, Republicans will need to come up with 218 votes and two-thirds of the House, and he said it would be "just a matter of time" before enough of the 232 Republicans could be rounded up to do that. A vote would not begin until then.

I wonder how much of this is bluster to intimidate the Democrats so that they won't call for a roll. I hope that there are enough people in Congress that will stand up, speak out, and prevent this legislation from going forward. If it does somehow pass, I hope the courts immediately strike it down as a violation of the Constitutional prohibition of ex post facto laws, a violation of the principle of Separation of Powers, and a violation of Article III of the Constitution.

Grrr.

Cheers,
Scott.

Post #199,659

3/21/05 12:23:10 AM

House debate just ended.

A little over 3 hours of debate in the US House of Representatives has just concluded. I've been listening to it on C-SPAN radio. The opponents had much stronger arguments, IMHO. But the tone has been as if it was a foregone conclusion that the bill that passed the Senate today by voice vote would pass the House after midnight.

I was surprised by how poorly many of the advocates presented their case. Many seemed to read exactly the same script. Many attacked the Florida courts and Michael Schiavo in the most crude and unseemly way. Many repeatedly mistated the facts in the case. It was pathetic, IMHO.

Stenny Hoyer gave a good ending speech for the opponents.

Tom DeLay gave a short emotional speech that didn't address the legislation, and the roll-call vote has just started.

We'll see what happens...

Cheers,
Scott.

Post #199,735

by drewk

3/21/05 12:26:10 PM

Want to know who's behind it? (new thread)

Created as new thread #199734 titled [link|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=199734|Want to know who's behind it?]

===

Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]

Post #199,876

3/21/05 8:44:49 PM

Judge Whittemore apparently not being stampeded.

[link|http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000087&sid=amMLmoi7Yll8&refer=top_world_news|Bloomberg]:

U.S. District Judge James Whittemore, after hearing arguments for about two hours in Tampa, gave no indication of how soon he may act on a request by Schiavo's parents to order the tube inserted. The tubes were removed three days ago, and medical experts, who say Schiavo is in vegetative state, say she may be able to survive for about two weeks without nourishment or water.

``I will not tell you when, how, or how long it will take'' to rule, Whittemore said.

[...]

Whittemore ordered lawyers for Schiavo's parents to file legal briefs in support of their claim that the new law is constitutional. ``Get it done as soon as you can,'' he said.

[...]

The husband's lawyer, George Felos, speaking to reporters outside the courthouse after the hearing, predicted Whittemore would reject the parents' bid to reinsert the feeding tubes.

Precious Moments

``We believe that the judge will apply his wisdom and his courage in denying this temporary restraining order which would be just a horrific intrusion on Mrs. Schiavo's liberty,'' Felos said.

I'm thankful that he's refusing to be stampeded to reverse the Florida court decision, and considering the Constitutionality of the act. I hope he rules carefully and gets it right.

Cheers,
Scott.

Post #199,877

by boxley

3/21/05 8:54:20 PM

the US courts having this hot pig dropped into their laps

by a congress who abuses them at every turn will deliberate slowly, prolly the USSC will vote 24 hours after she stops breathing.
thanx,
bill

Post #199,879

3/21/05 9:11:14 PM

Dunno.

I expect that the courts will try to make a just ruling, but limit the scope of the ruling, fairly promptly. I agree that they don't like being made the villain in this case. I also expect that the act will be declared unconstitutional eventually.

Have you read the Schindlers' latest [link|http://news.findlaw.com/hdocs/docs/schiavo/32105fedmot.pdf|motion] (20 page .pdf)? It's disgusting, IMO.

I wonder how many people remember [link|http://www.karenannquinlanhospice.org/new_page_3.htm|Karen Ann Quinlan].

:-(

Cheers,
Scott.

Post #199,881

by boxley

3/21/05 9:18:48 PM

dang, I didnt know the veg was less than a mile from

my florida house? good thing Im here cause if the squirrels annoyed me while driving by I would have to stop and remonstrate with them.
thanx
bill

Post #199,894

3/22/05 2:41:26 AM

Yeah, badmouthing the judge is really going to work well

for them.

Oh well, looks like the wackos are trolling for a new horse to beat leading up to your next set of elections and they've picked the gawdless judiciary.

--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton                            jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca]                   [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada               [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------

Post #199,898

by Ashton

3/22/05 4:24:43 AM

American Ayatollah (ya so) has a eu-phoni-ous lilt to it (?)

Post #199,910

3/22/05 8:48:42 AM

Doubt it. USSC has previously refused to hear the case.

bcnu,
Mikem

Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
God Bless America.

Post #199,890

3/21/05 11:38:01 PM

Legal Experts Say Parents Are Unlikely To Prevail

[link|http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A55253-2005Mar21.html|Washington Post]:

The judge assigned to the case, James Whittemore, expressed skepticism about the Schindlers' lawsuit. "I think you'd be hard-pressed to convince me that you have a substantial likelihood" of success, he said, declining to give an immediate order to restore the feeding tube.

The attorneys for the Schindlers need to weave their way around some difficult Supreme Court precedents. The 1990 Cruzan case made it clear that a person in a persistent vegetative state has a constitutional right to be removed from a feeding tube. In a 1997 ruling, Chief Justice William H. Rehnquist affirmed that the Cruzan case assumed that "the due process clause protects the traditional right to refuse unwanted lifesaving medical treatment." And in the 1995 Plaut ruling, written by Justice Antonin Scalia, the court struck down an effort by Congress to direct courts to reopen final judicial judgments.

Thus, even if the case goes to the Supreme Court, some of the conservative justices who might have the most sympathy for the Schindlers' claim have in the past sided with the states on similar cases. "I don't think the chance is much above zero" that this will change now, said Bruce Fein, a constitutional lawyer who is a columnist for the Washington Times.

[...]

In the lawsuit filed yesterday, Terri Schiavo is both the plaintiff and the defendant, represented by her parents as plaintiff and by her husband as defendant. That creates an unusual situation: If the federal courts recognize Michael Schiavo as guardian, then the federal proceedings requested by her parents could violate her constitutional rights.

"Can they force her to relitigate a right she has won?" Cheh wondered. "That may be a violation of her due-process rights." Cheh said she, for one, is happy not to be the one to answer such odd questions. "If I were the judge who got assigned to this by the computer, I'd flee the country," she said.

Cheers,
Scott.

Post #199,904

3/22/05 7:53:51 AM

Request for Temporary Restraining Order Denied.

[link|http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A56022-2005Mar22?language=printer|Washington Post]:

Tuesday, March 22, 2005; 7:22 AM

A federal judge in Tampa early this morning denied a request from the parents of Terri Schiavo to reinsert a feeding tube into the brain damaged woman.

U.S. District Judge James Whittemore wrote that Terri Schiavo's "life and liberty interests" had been protected by Florida courts, the Associated Press reported. Despite "these difficult and time strained circumstances," he wrote, "this court is constrained to apply the law to the issues before it."

The ruling is [link|http://abstractappeal.com/schiavo/fedctorder032205.pdf|here] (13 page .pdf). There are 4 tests for an appeal to be granted. They fail the 1st test - Their appeal would not succeed on its merits. It's a good read.

If the Schindlers appeal, it will go to the 11th Circuit, and then to the US Supreme Court according to [link|http://abstractappeal.com/|Abstract Appeal].

Cheers,
Scott.

Post #200,081