I don't know what her wishes are.

Post #199,912 by mmoffitt 3/22/05 8:56:16 AM 3/22/05 8:58:23 AM Reply	I don't know what her wishes are. And no one does. We know what a young person, secure in the "knowledge" that she would not likely be put on any life support for decades, said she wanted. And only if we listen to hearsay. But if she wants anything now and what it might be is plainly unknowable. bcnu, Mikem Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer. God Bless America. Edited by mmoffitt March 22, 2005, 08:58:23 AM EST Expand All History
Post #199,917 by Another Scott 3/22/05 10:26:40 AM Reply	One more time. Please read the court records. [link\|http://abstractappeal.com/schiavo/trialctorder02-00.pdf\|Here] (10 page .pdf) is Judge Green's order from 2/11/2000: There are no written declarations by Terri Schiavo as to her intention with regard to this issue. Therefore, the court is left with oral declarations allegedly made to parties and non-parties as to her feelings on this subject. The testimony before this court reveals that she made comments or statements to five (5) persons, including her husband and her mother. There was a lot of testimony concerning the Karen Ann Quinlin [sic] case in New Jersey. Mrs. Schindler testified that her daughter made comments during the television news reports of the father\ufffds attempts to have life support removed to the effect that they should just leave her (Karen Ann Quinlin [sic]) alone. Mrs. Schindler first testified that those comments were made when Terri was between 17-20 years of age but after being shown copies of newspaper accounts agreed that whe was 11 perhaps 12 years of age at the time. A witness recalled by Respondents testified to similar conversations with Terri Schiavo but stated that they occurred during the summer of 1982. While that witness appeared believeable at the offset [sic], the court noted two quotes from the discussion between she and Terri Schiavo which raise serious questions about the time frame. Both quotes are in the present tense and upon cross-examination, the witness did not alter them. The first quote involved a bad joke and used the verb \ufffdis\ufffd. The second quote involved the response from Terri Schiavo which used the word \ufffdare\ufffd. The court is mystified as to how these present tense verbs would have been used some six years after the death of Karen Ann Quinlin [sic]. The court further notes that this witness had quite specific memory during the trial but much less memory a few weeks earlier on deposition. At trial she mentioned seeing the television movie on Karen Ann Quinlin [sic] and had no hesitantly [sic] in testifying that this was a \ufffdreplay\ufffd of that movie and she watched such replay at college in Pennsylvania. She also knew precisely what song appeared on a TV program on a Friday evening when Petitioner was away at McDonald\ufffds training school. While the court certainly does not conclude the the [sic] bad joke and comment did not occur, the court is drawn to the conclusion that this discussion most likely occurred in the same time frame as the similar comments to Mrs. Schindler. This could well have occurred during this time frame since this witness and Terri Schiavo, together with their families, spent portions of summer vacation together which would have included the mid-1970\ufffds. Michael Schiavo testified as to a few discussion he had with his wife concerning life support. The Guardian Ad Litem felt that this testimony standing alone would not rise to clear and convincing evidence of her intent. The court is not required to ruse on this issue since it does have the benefit of testimony of his brother and sister-in-law. As the witness called by the Respondents, the court had the testimony of the brother and sister-in-law trascribed so that the court would not be hamstrung by relying upon its notes. The court has reviewed the testimony of Scott Schiavo and Joan Schiavo and finds nothing contained theirin to be unreliable. The court notes that neither of these witenesses appeared to have shaded his or her testimony or even attempt to exclude unfavorable commments or points regarding those discussions. They were not impeached on cross-examination. Argument is made as to why they waited so long to step forward but their explanations are worthy of belief. The testimony of Ms. Bever;y Tyler, Executive Director of Georgia Health Discoveries, clearly establishes that the expressions made by Terri Schiavo to these witnesses are the type of expressions made in those types of situations as would be expected by people in this country in that age group at that time. They (statements) reflect underlying values of independence, quality of life, not to be a burden and so forth. \ufffdHooked up to a machine\ufffd means they do not want life artificially extended when there is no hope of improvement. [\ufffd] There are some comments or statement [sic] made by Terri Schiavo which the court does not feel are germane to this decision. The court does not feel that statements made by her at the age of 11 or 12 years truly reflect upon her intention regarding the situation at hand. Additionally, the court does not feel that her statements directed toward others and situations involving others would have the same weight as comments or statements regarding herself if personally placed in those same situations. Into the former category the court places statements regarding Karen Ann Quinlin [sic] and the infant child of the friend of Joan Schiavo. The court finds that those statements are more reflective of what Terri Schiavo would do in a similar situation for someone else. The court does find that Terri Schiavo did make statements which are creditable and reliable with regard to her intention to given the situation at hand. Incidently, there is no question that Terri Schiavo does not pose a burden financially to anyone and this would appear to be a safe assumption for the foreseeable future. However, the court notes the term \ufffdburden\ufffd is not restricted solely to dollars and cents since one can also be a burden to others emotionally and physically. Statements which Terri Schiavo made which do support the relief sought by her surrogate (Petitioner/Guardian) include statements to him prompted by her grandmother being in intensive care that if she was ever a burden she would not want to live like that. Additionally, statements made to Miciael Schiavo which were prompted by something on television regarding people on life support that she wold not want to life [sic] like that also reflect her intention in this particular situation. Also the statements she made in the presence of Scott Schiavo at the funeral luncheon for his grandmother that \ufffdif I ever go like that just let me go. Don\ufffdt leave me there. I don\ufffdt want to be kept alive on a machine,\ufffd and to Joan Schiavo following a television movie in which a man following an accident was in a coma to the effect that she wanted it stated in her will that she would want the tubes and everything taken out if that ever happened to her are likewise reflective of this intent. The court specifically finds that these statements are Terri Schiavo\ufffds oral declarations concerning her intention as to what she would want done under the present circumstances and the testimony regarding such oral declarations is reliable, is creditable and rises to the level of clear and convincing evidence to this court. Typos are mine except where indicated by [sic]. HTH. Cheers, Scott.
Post #199,919 by mmoffitt 3/22/05 10:44:40 AM Reply	You know what insanity is, right? Repeating the same thing and expecting different results. We have the husband, his family and a flaky witness to go on wrt "her wishes". The mother - and this contradicts what I heard from an interview with the husband last night - is news to me. He was asked why Terri had "never said anything about her wishes to her own blood relations" and he did not dispute that and, in effect, put it that this is something you wouldn't discuss with blood relations (is that also to be believed?). That Terri had apparently said something to her mother related to this issue was news to me, I'll admit. I'll concede that point of my ignorance and then not hesitate to reject it as irrelevant. You should, too, unless, of course, you're happy to hold an adult in life and death matters to what they said when they were 11 or 12. Because a judge believed a philandering husband and his kin offers little (if any) proof of what "her wishes" were. And I find it curious that all the folks in favor of starving her simultaneously argue that "she has no ability to think" and that we "should honor her wishes". That is amazing. bcnu, Mikem Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer. God Bless America.
Post #199,920 by Another Scott 3/22/05 11:07:40 AM Reply	Yeah. Takes one to know one. :-D Let's step back a bit. Why would Michael be doing what he's been doing if he didn't think that's what she wanted? If he were a heartless cur only in it for the money, wouldn't he have taken the $1M or more that was offered? Wouldn't he have divorced his wife long ago and left her to her parents? Oh, I forgot, he's just a heartless cur who enjoys being vilified. [image\|/forums/images/warning.png\|0\|This is sarcasm...] I guess I'm done for a while. Cheers, Scott.
Post #199,925 by mmoffitt 3/22/05 11:45:54 AM Reply	Wait for the movie rights. ;0) He'll get his millions ;0) bcnu, Mikem Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer. God Bless America.
Post #199,926 by Another Scott 3/22/05 11:54:47 AM Reply	Ha! Your simultaneous cynicism and idealism amaze me. :-) Cheers, Scott.
Post #199,930 by mmoffitt 3/22/05 11:57:19 AM Reply	:-) bcnu, Mikem Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer. God Bless America.
Post #199,936 by jake123 3/22/05 1:21:41 PM Reply	Exactly It's unknowable, because she no longer inhabits her body. --\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca \n [link\|http://consultron.ca\|http://consultron.ca] [link\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] \n Kingston Ontario Canada [link\|news://news.consultron.ca\|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
Post #199,937 by mmoffitt 3/22/05 1:44:25 PM Reply	Maybe she does, maybe she doesn't. Is it likely that she does? Probably not. Is there any evidence to support that she does? None I am aware of. But before we get all certain of the near-deity like certainty of the vaunted practitioners of western medicine we must remember that at one point we thought that people under anesthesia could not hear us and could not feel any pain. That's what our physicians told us. And it turned out to be not true in all cases. A fact that they, the physicians, themselves had to later acknowledge. I still find some irony here. It seems to me that you cannot have it both ways. If, as you say, she "no longer inhabits her body" then did her desires survive that body? Proponents of starvation seem to be saying "what her wishes were should be the standard" but if she's "already dead" what relevance is there to her wishes? I've said all I can say on this subject. No one has asked me the question I was anticipating, so I'll ask it of myself. "What if it was my wife?" And the answer is "I don't know." But I would probably remove her feeding tube. She has told me that's what she wants (now), but I don't know if I could intentionally starve her to death. Fortunately, with my great girth and poor family history wrt hearts, I probably won't ever have to find out how I'd answer that question. What I do know is that there is no way on earth I would live with another women and sire children by her as long as I remained married to her. And I sure as hell would not turn the matter over to any third party - as was done in this case. bcnu, Mikem Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer. God Bless America.
Post #199,939 by jbrabeck 3/22/05 1:51:05 PM Reply	Concur If she did not want to be "kept alive at all costs", then she should be "put to sleep", but not starved to death. The method is what bothers me. 'Twas my wife, I'd find a way to "humanely" execute her. (My wife has said she wouldn't want to be kept alive). But I wouldn't starve her to death. A good friend will come and bail you out of jail ... but, a true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "Damn...that was fun!"
Post #199,943 by jake123 3/22/05 2:09:26 PM Reply	well, there's the problem You certainly can't legally do that. So, what are the remaining options for Schiavo? They are what they're doing. Her husband waited for five years to see if she would come back. That actually makes him exceptionally devoted, esp. today. He clearly thinks she IS dead in any real meaning of the word, even if her parents have refused to accept it, and have managed to use the courts to impose their interpretation of the situation on everybody else, including the hubby as well as on Terry herself. If his reasonable conclusion and the conclusion of all the other people (including what, four or five court-appointed guardians to look into her case and make a recommendation to the court) are that she's in all real respects dead, I don't think you can really blame him for moving on, or for having children. A year or so ago, I saw one of those medical shows where a construction worker had taken a tumble and landed on his head. The doctors at the hospital managed to get everything going again, but not before irreperable brain damage had occurred, leaving him effectively flatlined. They ended up pulling the plug 12 hours later. According to the kind of formulation mmoffit using here, they should keep him on the machines indefinitely, as those machines are not functionally any different from the feeding tube; the main difference between unplugging that guy from the ventilator and Schiavo from the tube is that he kicks off in a few minutes while she gets to linger for weeks. As Peter said, "can she swallow for herself?" --\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca \n [link\|http://consultron.ca\|http://consultron.ca] [link\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] \n Kingston Ontario Canada [link\|news://news.consultron.ca\|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
Post #199,964 by mmoffitt 3/22/05 3:27:51 PM Reply	I don't blame him for moving on. But he should have had at least the decency to divorce her first. bcnu, Mikem Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer. God Bless America.
Post #199,968 by jake123 3/22/05 3:34:03 PM Reply	What if he's Catholic? What if he thinks that his wife never wanted to have and would have hated the thought of her twilight existence, and that divorcing here would mean leaving care decisions to her parents, dooming her to it for as long as they could come up with the dough? Perhaps his efforts on getting the plug pulled are actually motivated by his love for his wife, regardless of the fact that fifteen years' worth of water has passed under the bridge since she died in all the ways that matter. --\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca \n [link\|http://consultron.ca\|http://consultron.ca] [link\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] \n Kingston Ontario Canada [link\|news://news.consultron.ca\|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
Post #199,969 by hnick 3/22/05 3:35:13 PM Reply	'Till death do you part... No need for a divorce. You won't agree of course. That's fine.
Post #200,068 by mmoffitt 3/23/05 8:17:10 AM Reply	PVS != Dead. bcnu, Mikem Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer. God Bless America.
Post #200,084 by hnick 3/23/05 8:50:08 AM Reply	No squash == dead Once the higher brain is gone, so is the person. The body is just meat, not a person. Ruin the body and preserve the brain and you still have a person (Steven Hawking comes to mind.) Kill the brain, the person is no longer. Neither is the marriage. Again, I don't expect you to agree with me. That's OK too, as long as I don't have to live by your expectations of humanity.
Post #200,086 by mmoffitt 3/23/05 9:04:16 AM Reply	Nobody but me does, unfortunately ;0) bcnu, Mikem Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer. God Bless America.
Post #200,087 by hnick 3/23/05 9:11:43 AM Reply	when everybody else is consistantly wrong, and only you are right, it may be time to reconsider your position. If you always have to think outside the box, it may be time to fix the box... or not... sometimes one person is right and everybody else is wrong.
Post #200,199 by boxley 3/23/05 6:42:18 PM Reply	hey none of that! All tribal myths are true, for a given value of "true" Terry Pratchett Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 48 years. meep questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #200,019 by tuberculosis 3/22/05 9:26:32 PM Reply	Decency? She died. Divorce implies an unsuccessful marriage - a release from vows - a loss of faith. He has been beyond faithful - rather than take the easy way out he has shown amazing devotion. He is enduring tremendous hardship to carry out her wishes. That's real love, that is. "Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" --Mark Twain "The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." --Albert Einstein "This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses." --George W. Bush
Post #200,020 by boxley 3/22/05 9:27:15 PM Reply	agreed All tribal myths are true, for a given value of "true" Terry Pratchett Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 48 years. meep questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #200,023 by drewk 3/22/05 9:33:12 PM Reply	Can we also agree ... (new thread) Created as new thread #200022 titled [link\|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=200022\|Can we also agree ...] === Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link\|http://DocHope.com\|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats]. [link\|http://DocHope.com\|http://DocHope.com]
Post #200,065 by mmoffitt 3/23/05 8:13:09 AM Reply	Right, like the $300,000 he took. GMAFB. She wasn't dead when he left her. She will be shortly. And I'll bet he constantly harped on her about being fat, too. bcnu, Mikem Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer. God Bless America.
Post #200,070 by boxley 3/23/05 8:22:48 AM Reply	well she was a puker, finally getting her wish all those years he visited, laughing and gloating at her, poking her with stick, yeah, thats the ticket that will get this overturned. Whatever it takes to attack someone whose actions you dont like. Politics of personaldestruction eh what? thanx, bill All tribal myths are true, for a given value of "true" Terry Pratchett Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 48 years. meep questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #200,075 by mmoffitt 3/23/05 8:30:41 AM Reply	Don't need to make stuff up. He knocked up one woman (twice!) while married to another. Call me a puritan, but that's just plain old wrong. And much as many here would like it to be, permanent vegetative state and dead are not the same thing. bcnu, Mikem Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer. God Bless America.
Post #200,077 by Silverlock 3/23/05 8:33:25 AM Reply	The body isn't dead The person is. ----------------------------------------- "In this world of sin and sorrow there is always something to be thankful for. As for me, I rejoice that I am not a Republican." -- H. L. Mencken Support our troops, Impeach Bush. D. D. Richards
Post #200,088 by mmoffitt 3/23/05 9:18:55 AM Reply	A long time ago, ... I was an orderly at a hospital in rural NC. We had a 37 year old male patient come in with a massive stroke. He was unresponsive, but breathing. This was back before HMO's, so he stayed on at the hospital for roughly a year. The whole time, unresponsive. He was breathing, but he was a turn every two hours, feeding tube, etc. patient. His wife visited frequently. Then, iirc almost a year after his admission she came in and sat with him for about 30 minutes. She left crying. After she left, the patient rose up in his bed briefly and then moaned horribly. Later I found out that his wife came to tell him she'd met some one else. We were encouraged by his movement because this is the first time any of us had seen him move and I'd been shaving him every day for almost a year. (Most of the time his pupils didn't respond to light stimulus). He eventually got to the point where he could move his head and shoulders as well as swallow, so we could feed him with a spoon. He was discharged to a nursing home. I still remember this guy 25 years later. I know his name and I'll never forget his reaction after his wife left. I, like the rest of the medical staff, would have bet the ranch that he would never make any sort of recovery - the damage to his brain was extensive because of the stroke. But he recovered enough to respond to people, eat and he did regain some movement. It wasn't much of a life, but he was still alive. bcnu, Mikem Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer. God Bless America.
Post #200,093 by jbrabeck 3/23/05 9:32:21 AM Reply	There's a slight difference Your patient "recovered enough to respond to people, eat and he did regain some movement". From what I've read, Terry won't. I agree with you. I believe that letting her starve is wrong. But there should be some alternative. If her parents wish to keep her alive with feeding, they should be granted that permission. I also agree with your assessment of her husband. Since he "gave up custody" to the courts, he should have divorced her, especially if he decided to establish a relationship with another woman. There's no easy answer. I disagree with both extremes... save her at any cost and let her starve. I also think that Congress & Bush made a mistake in passing a bill specifically for one individual. A good friend will come and bail you out of jail ... but, a true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "Damn...that was fun!"
Post #200,108 by mmoffitt 3/23/05 10:27:38 AM Reply	I don't think we disagree at all. bcnu, Mikem Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer. God Bless America.
Post #200,101 by jbrabeck 3/23/05 9:57:09 AM Reply	Another Christian view From the StarTribune. [link\|http://www.startribune.com/stories/1519/5307756.html\|God is merciful enough to offer life beyond feeding tubes] A good friend will come and bail you out of jail ... but, a true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "Damn...that was fun!"
Post #200,140 by tuberculosis 3/23/05 2:00:16 PM Reply	Year? Because she died in 1990. (new thread) Created as new thread #200139 titled [link\|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=200139\|Year? Because she died in 1990.] "Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" --Mark Twain "The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." --Albert Einstein "This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses." --George W. Bush
Post #199,944 by Another Scott 3/22/05 2:09:33 PM 3/22/05 9:58:48 PM Reply	Trouble is, there's no legal way to do that. The USSC has ruled that there's no right to assisted suicide or euthanasia. Cases like this illustrate that that opinion should be revisited, IMO. If it's any consolation, her body will die of dehydration not starvation. :-( [edit:] [link\|http://www.sptimes.com/2005/03/19/Tampabay/An_image_to_make_stom.shtml\|St. Petersburg Times]: The heart of the issue for some is whether Schiavo will suffer as she dies after the feeding tube is removed. [Stephen] Mernoff says she will not. "People think that's a terrible way to go, but that's because they think of starvation as it would feel to them, people who are totally conscious and aware of their surroundings," he said. "In a case like this, however, the patient will feel nothing at first, then will experience renal failure, lapse quickly and painlessly into a coma and then expire. It is actually very peaceful." FWIW. Cheers, Scott. Edited by Another Scott March 22, 2005, 09:58:48 PM EST Expand All History
Post #199,967 by mmoffitt 3/22/05 3:31:15 PM Reply	It'd be interesting to see if that option were available ... what, if any, difference it would make to people's opinions. I finally had a chance to talk to my wife about this last night (she's been an R.N. for 23 years). She said that while she didn't want to be the one to remove the tube, she wasn't opposed to the idea. Then I said something like, "Well, you know how painful that could be for the patient. I've heard some advocate for a lethal injection." She actually whinced, then frowned when I said that. bcnu, Mikem Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer. God Bless America.

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