Depends on which mathematical truth...

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Post #135,581 by ben_tilly 1/14/04 12:42:54 AM Reply	Depends on which mathematical truth... I'm willing to take on faith something which is a widely known theorem in logic, the proof of which I know is understandable and has been widely examined. However something like the classification of finite simple groups which I know is big, complex, and has not been reviewed? Well when the authors publically say that they don't believe their own proof, I'm not inclined to believe it either. Incidentally Asimov was being seriously unfair to religion. Yes, there are religious groups which act like he described. There are also groups of religious people who definitely don't. Religion itself doesn't act in any consistent way. Cheers, Ben "good ideas and bad code build communities, the other three combinations do not" - [link\|http://archives.real-time.com/pipermail/cocoon-devel/2000-October/003023.html\|Stefano Mazzocchi]
Post #135,625 by Ashton 1/14/04 8:07:49 AM Reply	IMO 'religion' is oft a sub-set: religiosity As practised in these parts, anyway. It's a language problem because 'metaphysics' arguably -- needs no such social construct. (And most Murican 'religion' is far more a social experience than, anything resembling solitary contemplation) I believe most of the interminable threads from IW --> zIWE + the fulminations of Nick et al: derive from this very confusion of er aims, methods and imagined 'results'. Language problems. ie Not all cultures suffer in the way our locals do; why some.. manage almost the sublime, with some regularity. Now as to whether Asimov was 'unfair' to relig(iosity)? Nahhh. (But he ascribed to science wrongly, anyway - that which science is unsuited to deal with, by definition. Bad Isaac.) Ashton
Post #135,757 by a6l6e6x 1/14/04 5:05:32 PM Reply	Einstein's thought on that: The further the spiritual evolution of mankind advances, the more certain it seems to me that the path to genuine religiosity does not lie through the fear of life, and the fear of death, and blind faith, but through striving after rational knowledge. Alex The mind is not a vessel to be filled but a fire to be kindled. -- Plutarch

I won't walk on coals about that - (ben_tilly) - (183) - Jan. 3, 2004, 06:59:07 PM EST

Science and Religion meet here - (orion) - (116) - Jan. 3, 2004, 07:49:01 PM EST

There is a Christian anti everything else . . - (Andrew Grygus) - (6) - Jan. 3, 2004, 08:44:54 PM EST

Not every Christian is a fundamentalist - (orion) - (5) - Jan. 3, 2004, 09:34:05 PM EST

Re: Not every Christian is a fundamentalist - (deSitter) - (4) - Jan. 3, 2004, 09:32:13 PM EST

Amen, brother-- and with holy vestments and 'blessed' oil.. -NT - (Ashton) - Jan. 4, 2004, 05:54:22 AM EST

Stupidest thing I've read all year. - (cwbrenn) - (2) - Jan. 7, 2004, 12:42:17 PM EST

Care to explain why? - (deSitter) - (1) - Jan. 7, 2004, 02:43:50 PM EST

Or, in the words of Heinrich Heine: - (a6l6e6x) - Jan. 7, 2004, 04:02:35 PM EST

No, they do NOT meet here - (ben_tilly) - (30) - Jan. 3, 2004, 10:09:25 PM EST

Yes indeed they do - (orion) - (29) - Jan. 4, 2004, 08:52:10 PM EST

Talk about rapidly changing your position - (ben_tilly) - (6) - Jan. 5, 2004, 12:59:16 PM EST

Fix your ring species link, please. - (admin) - Jan. 5, 2004, 12:01:04 PM EST

Not really - (orion) - (4) - Jan. 7, 2004, 01:48:00 AM EST

You can use whatever definition you want - (ben_tilly) - (3) - Jan. 7, 2004, 03:11:01 PM EST

Let us just agree to disagree then. - (orion) - (2) - Jan. 8, 2004, 11:33:30 PM EST

/me chuckles while pulling hair out -NT - (bepatient) - Jan. 9, 2004, 01:32:26 AM EST

Yes, we have passed the point of uselessness - (ben_tilly) - Jan. 9, 2004, 11:18:56 AM EST

Norman... - (pwhysall) - (21) - Jan. 5, 2004, 12:23:46 PM EST

Peter... - (orion) - (20) - Jan. 7, 2004, 02:20:13 AM EST

Riiiiiight. - (pwhysall) - (19) - Jan. 7, 2004, 07:28:30 AM EST

Re: Riiiiiight. - (deSitter) - (1) - Jan. 7, 2004, 07:31:50 AM EST

Re: Riiiiiight. - (pwhysall) - Jan. 7, 2004, 07:34:35 AM EST

It is because - (orion) - (16) - Jan. 7, 2004, 08:45:33 AM EST

potential root cause is fear of death? Interesting - (boxley) - (15) - Jan. 7, 2004, 12:35:46 PM EST

Fear of the known - (orion) - (14) - Jan. 8, 2004, 10:36:29 PM EST

so fear is the main issue - (boxley) - (13) - Jan. 9, 2004, 10:31:33 AM EST

"The Gift of Fear" is an interesting book. - (Another Scott) - Jan. 9, 2004, 10:40:46 AM EST

Perhaps it is part of the illness - (orion) - (11) - Jan. 9, 2004, 12:45:23 PM EST

Re: Perhaps it is part of the illness - (deSitter) - (10) - Jan. 9, 2004, 12:59:10 PM EST

You have no idea what you are talking about - (Nightowl) - (9) - Jan. 9, 2004, 01:08:27 PM EST

Re: You have no idea what you are talking about - (deSitter) - (3) - Jan. 9, 2004, 01:13:24 PM EST

You clearly stated... - (Nightowl) - (2) - Jan. 9, 2004, 01:19:00 PM EST

Re: You clearly stated... - (deSitter) - (1) - Jan. 9, 2004, 01:27:04 PM EST

Well as Scott said in the Hardware forum - (Nightowl) - Jan. 9, 2004, 01:31:13 PM EST

Not to mention - (orion) - (4) - Jan. 9, 2004, 01:24:29 PM EST

Re: Not to mention - (deSitter) - Jan. 9, 2004, 01:30:20 PM EST

perhaps you need to take up driving in demolition derbies - (boxley) - (1) - Jan. 9, 2004, 02:31:16 PM EST

You have a point - (orion) - Jan. 9, 2004, 03:31:59 PM EST

Nah, I agree with Ross - (lister) - Jan. 16, 2004, 03:09:01 PM EST

Science and Religion don't intersect much. - (JayMehaffey) - (60) - Jan. 3, 2004, 11:28:58 PM EST

Re: Science and Religion don't intersect much. - (deSitter) - Jan. 3, 2004, 11:57:04 PM EST

Oh yeah? - (orion) - (58) - Jan. 4, 2004, 08:55:49 PM EST

Still not getting it - (JayMehaffey) - (57) - Jan. 4, 2004, 10:01:06 PM EST

No you are not getting it - (orion) - (56) - Jan. 7, 2004, 02:00:18 AM EST

Re: No you are not getting it - (JayMehaffey) - (54) - Jan. 7, 2004, 03:36:00 AM EST

You are getting some of it - (orion) - (53) - Jan. 7, 2004, 09:07:54 AM EST

Re: You are getting some of it - (JayMehaffey) - (52) - Jan. 7, 2004, 08:49:17 PM EST

One more time with feeling - (orion) - (51) - Jan. 9, 2004, 12:02:38 AM EST

Re: One more time with feeling - (JayMehaffey) - (7) - Jan. 9, 2004, 02:32:54 AM EST

Some more information - (orion) - (6) - Jan. 9, 2004, 01:20:37 PM EST

What was the point of that? - (JayMehaffey) - (5) - Jan. 9, 2004, 04:23:35 PM EST

The point was - (orion) - (4) - Jan. 10, 2004, 01:05:16 PM EST

Re: The point was - (JayMehaffey) - (3) - Jan. 10, 2004, 10:21:24 PM EST

Apparently you missed part of that review quote - (orion) - (2) - Jan. 11, 2004, 02:37:38 PM EST

"Were atheists" ne "are atheists" - (ben_tilly) - Jan. 12, 2004, 12:21:32 AM EST

I saw that - (JayMehaffey) - Jan. 12, 2004, 03:19:08 PM EST

Ah, yes - (ben_tilly) - (42) - Jan. 9, 2004, 11:16:38 AM EST

It shows an example - (orion) - (41) - Jan. 9, 2004, 01:06:51 PM EST

You need some perspective - (ben_tilly) - (40) - Jan. 9, 2004, 03:57:38 PM EST

excellent +10 - (deSitter) - Jan. 9, 2004, 04:12:45 PM EST

And that is a decently compact one. - (Ashton) - Jan. 10, 2004, 07:10:52 AM EST

More suspect evidence - (orion) - (37) - Jan. 10, 2004, 01:02:36 PM EST

Talk about missing the point - (ben_tilly) - (36) - Jan. 10, 2004, 02:22:39 PM EST

I was presented it as - (orion) - (35) - Jan. 10, 2004, 03:21:22 PM EST

What is that about motes vs beams? - (ben_tilly) - (34) - Jan. 10, 2004, 04:03:38 PM EST

The truth is - (orion) - (33) - Jan. 10, 2004, 05:36:48 PM EST

Do you think that your opinion should count or not? - (ben_tilly) - (32) - Jan. 11, 2004, 12:51:47 AM EST

Everyone's opinions count - (orion) - (30) - Jan. 11, 2004, 02:26:03 PM EST

Re: Everyone's opinions count - (jake123) - (28) - Jan. 11, 2004, 11:36:18 PM EST

Re: Everyone's opinions count - (deSitter) - Jan. 11, 2004, 11:47:07 PM EST

Here in the US - (orion) - (26) - Jan. 12, 2004, 11:59:25 AM EST

Not the same. - (admin) - (6) - Jan. 12, 2004, 12:05:40 PM EST

I only ask - (orion) - (5) - Jan. 12, 2004, 04:46:52 PM EST

That's not what you said. -NT - (admin) - (4) - Jan. 12, 2004, 04:47:54 PM EST

What did I say? - (orion) - (3) - Jan. 12, 2004, 04:56:42 PM EST

MWBC. 'nuff said. -NT - (jake123) - (2) - Jan. 12, 2004, 04:58:27 PM EST

Sorry I did not get that - (orion) - (1) - Jan. 12, 2004, 05:07:29 PM EST

Here's the one that I mean: - (jake123) - Jan. 12, 2004, 05:26:07 PM EST

Re: Here in the US - (jake123) - (18) - Jan. 12, 2004, 12:50:44 PM EST

Well I could have been reading it wrong - (orion) - (17) - Jan. 12, 2004, 05:05:23 PM EST

That wasn't your point - (jake123) - (16) - Jan. 12, 2004, 05:24:39 PM EST

I had many points - (orion) - (15) - Jan. 12, 2004, 05:39:52 PM EST

Passive aggressive too -NT - (jake123) - (14) - Jan. 12, 2004, 05:47:37 PM EST

You got more to add? - (orion) - (13) - Jan. 12, 2004, 05:49:59 PM EST

Yes - (jake123) - (1) - Jan. 12, 2004, 05:55:53 PM EST

I do agree with you somewhat - (orion) - Jan. 13, 2004, 01:22:53 AM EST

Ok, let me have a whack at it - (hnick) - (10) - Jan. 12, 2004, 06:05:05 PM EST

Qualified opinions - (orion) - (9) - Jan. 13, 2004, 07:08:54 PM EST

Shopping for experts - (ben_tilly) - (8) - Jan. 14, 2004, 01:25:20 AM EST

Heh.. - (Ashton) - Jan. 14, 2004, 08:13:37 AM EST

Searching for experts - (orion) - (6) - Jan. 14, 2004, 10:52:17 AM EST

Any possibility of useful conversation has ended - (ben_tilly) - (5) - Jan. 14, 2004, 11:25:42 AM EST

Obviously you are mistaken - (orion) - Jan. 14, 2004, 01:39:53 PM EST

Let me put it another way - (orion) - (3) - Jan. 14, 2004, 04:55:15 PM EST

Re: Let me put it another way - (JayMehaffey) - Jan. 14, 2004, 06:03:45 PM EST

Please review the thread from the beginning. - (Another Scott) - Jan. 14, 2004, 08:22:08 PM EST

Die, Norman! Die! (new thread) - (rcareaga) - Jan. 14, 2004, 11:45:10 PM EST

But not equally - (ben_tilly) - Jan. 12, 2004, 12:10:02 AM EST

In the words of Dinah Maria Mulock Craik, - (a6l6e6x) - Jan. 11, 2004, 02:57:26 PM EST

You learn to Love the Mystery - (Ashton) - Jan. 7, 2004, 03:37:04 AM EST

You need to understand the meaning of the words you're using - (Another Scott) - (15) - Jan. 4, 2004, 12:14:02 AM EST

Re: You need to understand the meaning of the words you're u - (deSitter) - (14) - Jan. 4, 2004, 12:22:09 AM EST

9 times 6 is 42. -NT - (admin) - Jan. 4, 2004, 12:42:44 AM EST

Yes and no. - (Another Scott) - (9) - Jan. 4, 2004, 01:11:11 AM EST

That is not the reasonableness that Ross is asserting - (ben_tilly) - (8) - Jan. 4, 2004, 03:51:46 AM EST

Hume discussed this - (jake123) - (1) - Jan. 4, 2004, 11:10:45 AM EST

And to quote Aleister Crowley . . - (Andrew Grygus) - Jan. 4, 2004, 12:49:52 PM EST

Even more interesting "reasonableness" - (Arkadiy) - (5) - Jan. 6, 2004, 05:14:45 PM EST

Info is in the Principia. - (Another Scott) - (2) - Jan. 6, 2004, 05:27:30 PM EST

Re: Info is in the Principia. - (deSitter) - (1) - Jan. 7, 2004, 06:41:22 AM EST

I'm not - (ben_tilly) - Jan. 7, 2004, 02:47:19 PM EST

Several things - (ben_tilly) - Jan. 6, 2004, 05:39:23 PM EST

Re: Even more interesting "reasonableness" - (deSitter) - Jan. 7, 2004, 07:00:09 AM EST

To quote Slim Pickens in Blazing Saddles... - (danreck) - (2) - Jan. 5, 2004, 04:55:16 PM EST

Re: To quote Slim Pickens in Blazing Saddles... - (deSitter) - (1) - Jan. 5, 2004, 05:34:22 PM EST

It is the highest compliment I can give. - (danreck) - Jan. 6, 2004, 10:07:14 AM EST

And ill met they are - (tuberculosis) - Jan. 5, 2004, 05:02:38 PM EST

What I find unreasonable. - (static) - (64) - Jan. 4, 2004, 02:29:44 AM EST

Re: What I find unreasonable. - (deSitter) - Jan. 4, 2004, 03:05:24 AM EST

But that WAS NOT excluded from the possibilities! - (ben_tilly) - (41) - Jan. 4, 2004, 03:48:17 AM EST

Oops? - (Nightowl) - Jan. 5, 2004, 12:11:58 AM EST

I've been staying out of this... - (Nightowl) - (15) - Jan. 4, 2004, 09:39:34 AM EST

Quite a few believe that - (ben_tilly) - (14) - Jan. 4, 2004, 01:32:40 PM EST

I'm in that group - (FuManChu) - Jan. 4, 2004, 04:06:45 PM EST

Speaking of Catholic thought - (ChrisR) - (12) - Jan. 4, 2004, 07:56:25 PM EST

Nowhere in particular - (ben_tilly) - (11) - Jan. 5, 2004, 11:41:35 AM EST

Tielhard only wrote once about Piltdown - (ChrisR) - (10) - Jan. 5, 2004, 01:03:15 PM EST

As I said, this I do not know about - (ben_tilly) - (9) - Jan. 5, 2004, 04:31:03 PM EST

As long as this thread won't die - (ChrisR) - (8) - Jan. 9, 2004, 11:35:53 AM EST

I see no evidence of a global goal direction - (ben_tilly) - (7) - Jan. 9, 2004, 11:46:54 AM EST

Meandering along - (ChrisR) - (6) - Jan. 9, 2004, 12:23:43 PM EST

Re: Meandering along - (deSitter) - (4) - Jan. 9, 2004, 12:33:29 PM EST

Which touches on a different concern I've had.... - (ChrisR) - (1) - Jan. 9, 2004, 01:09:07 PM EST

Exactly! - (deSitter) - Jan. 9, 2004, 01:22:31 PM EST

Your knowledge is insufficient - (ben_tilly) - (1) - Jan. 9, 2004, 04:11:04 PM EST

Fascinating - I stand corrected! - (deSitter) - Jan. 9, 2004, 04:18:42 PM EST

The boundaries are broader than you might think - (ben_tilly) - Jan. 9, 2004, 04:16:55 PM EST

Good. - (static) - (23) - Jan. 6, 2004, 06:18:08 AM EST

You did not answer the question - (ben_tilly) - (4) - Jan. 6, 2004, 10:56:53 AM EST

I rather thought I did. - (static) - (3) - Jan. 7, 2004, 06:16:33 AM EST

Bullshit - (ben_tilly) - (2) - Jan. 7, 2004, 11:21:00 AM EST

I made a mistake. - (static) - (1) - Jan. 8, 2004, 10:36:13 PM EST

How you should interpret my actions - (ben_tilly) - Jan. 9, 2004, 12:08:33 PM EST

Pardon me, but that'll be when pigs fly. - (mmoffitt) - (17) - Jan. 8, 2004, 10:09:28 PM EST

Why would I assail you? - (ben_tilly) - (16) - Jan. 8, 2004, 10:17:52 PM EST

Okay, here we go. - (mmoffitt) - (15) - Jan. 8, 2004, 11:33:26 PM EST

Umm *cough* - I thought this had been "done": piecemeal - (Ashton) - (7) - Jan. 9, 2004, 01:30:19 AM EST

"Silly that"? - (mmoffitt) - (6) - Jan. 9, 2004, 06:31:28 AM EST

Re: "Silly that"? - (deSitter) - (4) - Jan. 9, 2004, 06:38:40 AM EST

Unless they look too deep. - (mmoffitt) - (3) - Jan. 9, 2004, 09:34:24 AM EST

? It's right on the surface - (deSitter) - (1) - Jan. 9, 2004, 11:24:57 AM EST

Concur. -NT - (mmoffitt) - Jan. 9, 2004, 03:10:51 PM EST

You have to know what is relevant - (ben_tilly) - Jan. 9, 2004, 11:26:54 AM EST

Re: "Silly that"? - (Ashton) - Jan. 10, 2004, 06:35:37 AM EST

I think that you misunderstood me then - (ben_tilly) - (6) - Jan. 9, 2004, 11:42:35 AM EST

What we can agree to disagree on. - (mmoffitt) - (5) - Jan. 13, 2004, 01:44:11 PM EST

If you need actual proof... - (ben_tilly) - (4) - Jan. 13, 2004, 02:06:05 PM EST

Ah... - (mmoffitt) - (3) - Jan. 13, 2004, 08:27:55 PM EST

Depends on which mathematical truth... - (ben_tilly) - (2) - Jan. 14, 2004, 12:42:54 AM EST

IMO 'religion' is oft a sub-set: religiosity - (Ashton) - (1) - Jan. 14, 2004, 08:07:49 AM EST

Einstein's thought on that: - (a6l6e6x) - Jan. 14, 2004, 05:05:32 PM EST

"special creation may have occurred" - (Ashton) - (4) - Jan. 4, 2004, 05:48:50 AM EST

Ashton you know me better than that. - (static) - (3) - Jan. 7, 2004, 05:49:46 AM EST

I think you meant... - (Nightowl) - (1) - Jan. 6, 2004, 11:51:03 AM EST

Dang. Thanks. -NT - (static) - Jan. 7, 2004, 05:49:19 AM EST

Why, of course.. - (Ashton) - Jan. 7, 2004, 04:49:56 AM EST

Touching faith in the GICB's omnipotence. - (Silverlock) - (15) - Jan. 4, 2004, 09:06:34 AM EST

Re: Touching faith in the GICB's omnipotence. - (deSitter) - (2) - Jan. 4, 2004, 09:16:39 AM EST

Fundamentalists don't like mystery - (JayMehaffey) - Jan. 4, 2004, 02:29:43 PM EST

It is the Heat Death of the literalists - - (Ashton) - Jan. 4, 2004, 06:43:55 PM EST

Re: "right wicked sense of humor"? - (a6l6e6x) - (11) - Jan. 4, 2004, 01:41:47 PM EST

What I believe - (orion) - (10) - Jan. 4, 2004, 09:08:57 PM EST

Re: What I believe - (JayMehaffey) - (9) - Jan. 4, 2004, 10:33:51 PM EST

Re: What I believe - (Ashton) - (2) - Jan. 5, 2004, 08:21:13 PM EST

While you were out: - (danreck) - (1) - Jan. 6, 2004, 05:04:06 PM EST

s'OK Danno - (Ashton) - Jan. 7, 2004, 04:03:12 AM EST

I see it as this - (orion) - (5) - Jan. 7, 2004, 02:16:41 AM EST

Didn't address the issue - (JayMehaffey) - (4) - Jan. 7, 2004, 03:51:29 AM EST

Disagree - (ben_tilly) - (3) - Jan. 7, 2004, 10:46:02 AM EST

That's true - (Nightowl) - Jan. 7, 2004, 11:44:38 AM EST

Re: Disagree - (JayMehaffey) - (1) - Jan. 7, 2004, 08:04:24 PM EST

It's most likely pointless - (Ashton) - Jan. 9, 2004, 01:58:20 AM EST

Faith and Science - (andread) - Jan. 6, 2004, 02:43:07 PM EST

Same LRPD time, same LRPD channel.
144 ms