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New I made a mistake.
I should have never replied to you at the top of this thread. As you yourself pointed out, I said at the termination of a previous discussion that I would not discuss this with you before I had done more research. I have still not done this research which should explain to you why you think I have not answered your question. (I also said I had some experience being in the conflict surrounding your question, which you have misread.)

I deeply resent being painted into corners like that, Ben. It tells me you want me to give up my current faith and beliefs and place them where you place yours which I know is absolutely not your motive so perhaps you might think about how I got that impression. Or not, because right now I don't care.

Wade.

Is it enough to love
Is it enough to breathe
Somebody rip my heart out
And leave me here to bleed
 
Is it enough to die
Somebody save my life
I'd rather be Anything but Ordinary
Please

-- "Anything but Ordinary" by Avril Lavigne.

New How you should interpret my actions
It is my belief that you have strongly held beliefs about what should happen in classrooms that run exactly counter to what I want to happen. When you (or anyone really) makes snide remarks hinting at those positions, I want to verify this, and want to better understand how someone can reasonably hold those beliefs.

As you note, I'm not interested in telling you what faith you have, etc. I'm instead interested in the practical question that affects people I care about, namely What should we do in science classrooms? It may feel to you that I'm challenging your belief system, but I really am trying to divorce that one question from your belief system. To the extent that the two don't get divorced, I may come across as challenging your faith. But I'm honestly not trying to.

Perhaps I should clarify. To me it is quite possible to say, "I think that schools should teach X." while also saying, "I think that X is wrong." For instance while subject admissions tests remain what they are, I think that schools should teach much of the current math curriculum even though I think that the way that it is taught sucks, and the priorities for choosing subject matter are horribly off. Or in something closer to the instance under discussion, I think that schools should give students perspective about what fraction of the public believes various things, even though many of the things which are widely believed I don't accept.

To me that isn't promoting religion. That is giving students perspective on the society that they will enter and live in.

Cheers,
Ben
"good ideas and bad code build communities, the other three combinations do not"
- [link|http://archives.real-time.com/pipermail/cocoon-devel/2000-October/003023.html|Stefano Mazzocchi]
     I won't walk on coals about that - (ben_tilly) - (183)
         Science and Religion meet here - (orion) - (116)
             There is a Christian anti everything else . . - (Andrew Grygus) - (6)
                 Not every Christian is a fundamentalist - (orion) - (5)
                     Re: Not every Christian is a fundamentalist - (deSitter) - (4)
                         Amen, brother-- and with holy vestments and 'blessed' oil.. -NT - (Ashton)
                         Stupidest thing I've read all year. - (cwbrenn) - (2)
                             Care to explain why? - (deSitter) - (1)
                                 Or, in the words of Heinrich Heine: - (a6l6e6x)
             No, they do NOT meet here - (ben_tilly) - (30)
                 Yes indeed they do - (orion) - (29)
                     Talk about rapidly changing your position - (ben_tilly) - (6)
                         Fix your ring species link, please. - (admin)
                         Not really - (orion) - (4)
                             You can use whatever definition you want - (ben_tilly) - (3)
                                 Let us just agree to disagree then. - (orion) - (2)
                                     /me chuckles while pulling hair out -NT - (bepatient)
                                     Yes, we have passed the point of uselessness - (ben_tilly)
                     Norman... - (pwhysall) - (21)
                         Peter... - (orion) - (20)
                             Riiiiiight. - (pwhysall) - (19)
                                 Re: Riiiiiight. - (deSitter) - (1)
                                     Re: Riiiiiight. - (pwhysall)
                                 It is because - (orion) - (16)
                                     potential root cause is fear of death? Interesting - (boxley) - (15)
                                         Fear of the known - (orion) - (14)
                                             so fear is the main issue - (boxley) - (13)
                                                 "The Gift of Fear" is an interesting book. - (Another Scott)
                                                 Perhaps it is part of the illness - (orion) - (11)
                                                     Re: Perhaps it is part of the illness - (deSitter) - (10)
                                                         You have no idea what you are talking about - (Nightowl) - (9)
                                                             Re: You have no idea what you are talking about - (deSitter) - (3)
                                                                 You clearly stated... - (Nightowl) - (2)
                                                                     Re: You clearly stated... - (deSitter) - (1)
                                                                         Well as Scott said in the Hardware forum - (Nightowl)
                                                             Not to mention - (orion) - (4)
                                                                 Re: Not to mention - (deSitter)
                                                                 perhaps you need to take up driving in demolition derbies - (boxley) - (1)
                                                                     You have a point - (orion)
                                                                 Nah, I agree with Ross - (lister)
             Science and Religion don't intersect much. - (JayMehaffey) - (60)
                 Re: Science and Religion don't intersect much. - (deSitter)
                 Oh yeah? - (orion) - (58)
                     Still not getting it - (JayMehaffey) - (57)
                         No you are not getting it - (orion) - (56)
                             Re: No you are not getting it - (JayMehaffey) - (54)
                                 You are getting some of it - (orion) - (53)
                                     Re: You are getting some of it - (JayMehaffey) - (52)
                                         One more time with feeling - (orion) - (51)
                                             Re: One more time with feeling - (JayMehaffey) - (7)
                                                 Some more information - (orion) - (6)
                                                     What was the point of that? - (JayMehaffey) - (5)
                                                         The point was - (orion) - (4)
                                                             Re: The point was - (JayMehaffey) - (3)
                                                                 Apparently you missed part of that review quote - (orion) - (2)
                                                                     "Were atheists" ne "are atheists" - (ben_tilly)
                                                                     I saw that - (JayMehaffey)
                                             Ah, yes - (ben_tilly) - (42)
                                                 It shows an example - (orion) - (41)
                                                     You need some perspective - (ben_tilly) - (40)
                                                         excellent +10 - (deSitter)
                                                         And that is a decently compact one. - (Ashton)
                                                         More suspect evidence - (orion) - (37)
                                                             Talk about missing the point - (ben_tilly) - (36)
                                                                 I was presented it as - (orion) - (35)
                                                                     What is that about motes vs beams? - (ben_tilly) - (34)
                                                                         The truth is - (orion) - (33)
                                                                             Do you think that your opinion should count or not? - (ben_tilly) - (32)
                                                                                 Everyone's opinions count - (orion) - (30)
                                                                                     Re: Everyone's opinions count - (jake123) - (28)
                                                                                         Re: Everyone's opinions count - (deSitter)
                                                                                         Here in the US - (orion) - (26)
                                                                                             Not the same. - (admin) - (6)
                                                                                                 I only ask - (orion) - (5)
                                                                                                     That's not what you said. -NT - (admin) - (4)
                                                                                                         What did I say? - (orion) - (3)
                                                                                                             MWBC. 'nuff said. -NT - (jake123) - (2)
                                                                                                                 Sorry I did not get that - (orion) - (1)
                                                                                                                     Here's the one that I mean: - (jake123)
                                                                                             Re: Here in the US - (jake123) - (18)
                                                                                                 Well I could have been reading it wrong - (orion) - (17)
                                                                                                     That wasn't your point - (jake123) - (16)
                                                                                                         I had many points - (orion) - (15)
                                                                                                             Passive aggressive too -NT - (jake123) - (14)
                                                                                                                 You got more to add? - (orion) - (13)
                                                                                                                     Yes - (jake123) - (1)
                                                                                                                         I do agree with you somewhat - (orion)
                                                                                                                     Ok, let me have a whack at it - (hnick) - (10)
                                                                                                                         Qualified opinions - (orion) - (9)
                                                                                                                             Shopping for experts - (ben_tilly) - (8)
                                                                                                                                 Heh.. - (Ashton)
                                                                                                                                 Searching for experts - (orion) - (6)
                                                                                                                                     Any possibility of useful conversation has ended - (ben_tilly) - (5)
                                                                                                                                         Obviously you are mistaken - (orion)
                                                                                                                                         Let me put it another way - (orion) - (3)
                                                                                                                                             Re: Let me put it another way - (JayMehaffey)
                                                                                                                                             Please review the thread from the beginning. - (Another Scott)
                                                                                                                                             Die, Norman! Die! (new thread) - (rcareaga)
                                                                                     But not equally - (ben_tilly)
                                                                                 In the words of Dinah Maria Mulock Craik, - (a6l6e6x)
                             You learn to Love the Mystery - (Ashton)
             You need to understand the meaning of the words you're using - (Another Scott) - (15)
                 Re: You need to understand the meaning of the words you're u - (deSitter) - (14)
                     9 times 6 is 42. -NT - (admin)
                     Yes and no. - (Another Scott) - (9)
                         That is not the reasonableness that Ross is asserting - (ben_tilly) - (8)
                             Hume discussed this - (jake123) - (1)
                                 And to quote Aleister Crowley . . - (Andrew Grygus)
                             Even more interesting "reasonableness" - (Arkadiy) - (5)
                                 Info is in the Principia. - (Another Scott) - (2)
                                     Re: Info is in the Principia. - (deSitter) - (1)
                                         I'm not - (ben_tilly)
                                 Several things - (ben_tilly)
                                 Re: Even more interesting "reasonableness" - (deSitter)
                     To quote Slim Pickens in Blazing Saddles... - (danreck) - (2)
                         Re: To quote Slim Pickens in Blazing Saddles... - (deSitter) - (1)
                             It is the highest compliment I can give. - (danreck)
             And ill met they are - (tuberculosis)
         What I find unreasonable. - (static) - (64)
             Re: What I find unreasonable. - (deSitter)
             But that WAS NOT excluded from the possibilities! - (ben_tilly) - (41)
                 Oops? - (Nightowl)
                 I've been staying out of this... - (Nightowl) - (15)
                     Quite a few believe that - (ben_tilly) - (14)
                         I'm in that group - (FuManChu)
                         Speaking of Catholic thought - (ChrisR) - (12)
                             Nowhere in particular - (ben_tilly) - (11)
                                 Tielhard only wrote once about Piltdown - (ChrisR) - (10)
                                     As I said, this I do not know about - (ben_tilly) - (9)
                                         As long as this thread won't die - (ChrisR) - (8)
                                             I see no evidence of a global goal direction - (ben_tilly) - (7)
                                                 Meandering along - (ChrisR) - (6)
                                                     Re: Meandering along - (deSitter) - (4)
                                                         Which touches on a different concern I've had.... - (ChrisR) - (1)
                                                             Exactly! - (deSitter)
                                                         Your knowledge is insufficient - (ben_tilly) - (1)
                                                             Fascinating - I stand corrected! - (deSitter)
                                                     The boundaries are broader than you might think - (ben_tilly)
                 Good. - (static) - (23)
                     You did not answer the question - (ben_tilly) - (4)
                         I rather thought I did. - (static) - (3)
                             Bullshit - (ben_tilly) - (2)
                                 I made a mistake. - (static) - (1)
                                     How you should interpret my actions - (ben_tilly)
                     Pardon me, but that'll be when pigs fly. - (mmoffitt) - (17)
                         Why would I assail you? - (ben_tilly) - (16)
                             Okay, here we go. - (mmoffitt) - (15)
                                 Umm *cough* - I thought this had been "done": piecemeal - (Ashton) - (7)
                                     "Silly that"? - (mmoffitt) - (6)
                                         Re: "Silly that"? - (deSitter) - (4)
                                             Unless they look too deep. - (mmoffitt) - (3)
                                                 ? It's right on the surface - (deSitter) - (1)
                                                     Concur. -NT - (mmoffitt)
                                                 You have to know what is relevant - (ben_tilly)
                                         Re: "Silly that"? - (Ashton)
                                 I think that you misunderstood me then - (ben_tilly) - (6)
                                     What we can agree to disagree on. - (mmoffitt) - (5)
                                         If you need actual proof... - (ben_tilly) - (4)
                                             Ah... - (mmoffitt) - (3)
                                                 Depends on which mathematical truth... - (ben_tilly) - (2)
                                                     IMO 'religion' is oft a sub-set: religiosity - (Ashton) - (1)
                                                         Einstein's thought on that: - (a6l6e6x)
             "special creation may have occurred" - (Ashton) - (4)
                 Ashton you know me better than that. - (static) - (3)
                     I think you meant... - (Nightowl) - (1)
                         Dang. Thanks. -NT - (static)
                     Why, of course.. - (Ashton)
             Touching faith in the GICB's omnipotence. - (Silverlock) - (15)
                 Re: Touching faith in the GICB's omnipotence. - (deSitter) - (2)
                     Fundamentalists don't like mystery - (JayMehaffey)
                     It is the Heat Death of the literalists - - (Ashton)
                 Re: "right wicked sense of humor"? - (a6l6e6x) - (11)
                     What I believe - (orion) - (10)
                         Re: What I believe - (JayMehaffey) - (9)
                             Re: What I believe - (Ashton) - (2)
                                 While you were out: - (danreck) - (1)
                                     s'OK Danno - (Ashton)
                             I see it as this - (orion) - (5)
                                 Didn't address the issue - (JayMehaffey) - (4)
                                     Disagree - (ben_tilly) - (3)
                                         That's true - (Nightowl)
                                         Re: Disagree - (JayMehaffey) - (1)
                                             It's most likely pointless - (Ashton)
         Faith and Science - (andread)

You are the antipost.
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