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New Ah...
I've merely quoted an often-quoted fact from logic.

So you do take some things on faith.

I'm only kidding, Ben. But it does remind me of something I heard long ago. I was watching Asimov being interviewed on television and, although I can't quote him exactly now, he said something along the lines of "Science is of higher moral ground than religion. If science discovers something that does not agree with its most valued theories, the theories are thrown out - or modified. When religion discovers something inconsistent with its dogma, the evidence is destroyed." So, you'd be right, imho, to be more willing to accept at face value a "widely held scientific/mathematical truth" than any religious truth.

IMO, there is damned little sacred about organized religion. The religion I spoke of in this thread is a personal religion, which can neither be taught, explained, nor discussed. True religion comes from within. Even discussing religion is a fool's errand. There's an old Taoist saying, "Those who know do not speak. Those who speak freely do not know." That'd apply to darned near every "professional" religious zealot (preachers,priests,mullahs,rabbis,etc.) I know.
bcnu,
Mikem

I don't do third world languages. So no, I don't do Java.
New Depends on which mathematical truth...
I'm willing to take on faith something which is a widely known theorem in logic, the proof of which I know is understandable and has been widely examined.

However something like the classification of finite simple groups which I know is big, complex, and has not been reviewed? Well when the authors publically say that they don't believe their own proof, I'm not inclined to believe it either.

Incidentally Asimov was being seriously unfair to religion. Yes, there are religious groups which act like he described. There are also groups of religious people who definitely don't. Religion itself doesn't act in any consistent way.

Cheers,
Ben
"good ideas and bad code build communities, the other three combinations do not"
- [link|http://archives.real-time.com/pipermail/cocoon-devel/2000-October/003023.html|Stefano Mazzocchi]
New IMO 'religion' is oft a sub-set: religiosity
As practised in these parts, anyway. It's a language problem because 'metaphysics' arguably -- needs no such social construct. (And most Murican 'religion' is far more a social experience than, anything resembling solitary contemplation)

I believe most of the interminable threads from IW --> zIWE + the fulminations of Nick et al: derive from this very confusion of er aims, methods and imagined 'results'. Language problems.

ie Not all cultures suffer in the way our locals do; why some.. manage almost the sublime, with some regularity.

Now as to whether Asimov was 'unfair' to relig(iosity)? Nahhh.
(But he ascribed to science wrongly, anyway - that which science is unsuited to deal with, by definition. Bad Isaac.)


Ashton
New Einstein's thought on that:
The further the spiritual evolution of mankind advances, the more certain it seems to me that the path to genuine religiosity does not lie through the fear of life, and the fear of death, and blind faith, but through striving after rational knowledge.
Alex

The mind is not a vessel to be filled but a fire to be kindled. -- Plutarch
     I won't walk on coals about that - (ben_tilly) - (183)
         Science and Religion meet here - (orion) - (116)
             There is a Christian anti everything else . . - (Andrew Grygus) - (6)
                 Not every Christian is a fundamentalist - (orion) - (5)
                     Re: Not every Christian is a fundamentalist - (deSitter) - (4)
                         Amen, brother-- and with holy vestments and 'blessed' oil.. -NT - (Ashton)
                         Stupidest thing I've read all year. - (cwbrenn) - (2)
                             Care to explain why? - (deSitter) - (1)
                                 Or, in the words of Heinrich Heine: - (a6l6e6x)
             No, they do NOT meet here - (ben_tilly) - (30)
                 Yes indeed they do - (orion) - (29)
                     Talk about rapidly changing your position - (ben_tilly) - (6)
                         Fix your ring species link, please. - (admin)
                         Not really - (orion) - (4)
                             You can use whatever definition you want - (ben_tilly) - (3)
                                 Let us just agree to disagree then. - (orion) - (2)
                                     /me chuckles while pulling hair out -NT - (bepatient)
                                     Yes, we have passed the point of uselessness - (ben_tilly)
                     Norman... - (pwhysall) - (21)
                         Peter... - (orion) - (20)
                             Riiiiiight. - (pwhysall) - (19)
                                 Re: Riiiiiight. - (deSitter) - (1)
                                     Re: Riiiiiight. - (pwhysall)
                                 It is because - (orion) - (16)
                                     potential root cause is fear of death? Interesting - (boxley) - (15)
                                         Fear of the known - (orion) - (14)
                                             so fear is the main issue - (boxley) - (13)
                                                 "The Gift of Fear" is an interesting book. - (Another Scott)
                                                 Perhaps it is part of the illness - (orion) - (11)
                                                     Re: Perhaps it is part of the illness - (deSitter) - (10)
                                                         You have no idea what you are talking about - (Nightowl) - (9)
                                                             Re: You have no idea what you are talking about - (deSitter) - (3)
                                                                 You clearly stated... - (Nightowl) - (2)
                                                                     Re: You clearly stated... - (deSitter) - (1)
                                                                         Well as Scott said in the Hardware forum - (Nightowl)
                                                             Not to mention - (orion) - (4)
                                                                 Re: Not to mention - (deSitter)
                                                                 perhaps you need to take up driving in demolition derbies - (boxley) - (1)
                                                                     You have a point - (orion)
                                                                 Nah, I agree with Ross - (lister)
             Science and Religion don't intersect much. - (JayMehaffey) - (60)
                 Re: Science and Religion don't intersect much. - (deSitter)
                 Oh yeah? - (orion) - (58)
                     Still not getting it - (JayMehaffey) - (57)
                         No you are not getting it - (orion) - (56)
                             Re: No you are not getting it - (JayMehaffey) - (54)
                                 You are getting some of it - (orion) - (53)
                                     Re: You are getting some of it - (JayMehaffey) - (52)
                                         One more time with feeling - (orion) - (51)
                                             Re: One more time with feeling - (JayMehaffey) - (7)
                                                 Some more information - (orion) - (6)
                                                     What was the point of that? - (JayMehaffey) - (5)
                                                         The point was - (orion) - (4)
                                                             Re: The point was - (JayMehaffey) - (3)
                                                                 Apparently you missed part of that review quote - (orion) - (2)
                                                                     "Were atheists" ne "are atheists" - (ben_tilly)
                                                                     I saw that - (JayMehaffey)
                                             Ah, yes - (ben_tilly) - (42)
                                                 It shows an example - (orion) - (41)
                                                     You need some perspective - (ben_tilly) - (40)
                                                         excellent +10 - (deSitter)
                                                         And that is a decently compact one. - (Ashton)
                                                         More suspect evidence - (orion) - (37)
                                                             Talk about missing the point - (ben_tilly) - (36)
                                                                 I was presented it as - (orion) - (35)
                                                                     What is that about motes vs beams? - (ben_tilly) - (34)
                                                                         The truth is - (orion) - (33)
                                                                             Do you think that your opinion should count or not? - (ben_tilly) - (32)
                                                                                 Everyone's opinions count - (orion) - (30)
                                                                                     Re: Everyone's opinions count - (jake123) - (28)
                                                                                         Re: Everyone's opinions count - (deSitter)
                                                                                         Here in the US - (orion) - (26)
                                                                                             Not the same. - (admin) - (6)
                                                                                                 I only ask - (orion) - (5)
                                                                                                     That's not what you said. -NT - (admin) - (4)
                                                                                                         What did I say? - (orion) - (3)
                                                                                                             MWBC. 'nuff said. -NT - (jake123) - (2)
                                                                                                                 Sorry I did not get that - (orion) - (1)
                                                                                                                     Here's the one that I mean: - (jake123)
                                                                                             Re: Here in the US - (jake123) - (18)
                                                                                                 Well I could have been reading it wrong - (orion) - (17)
                                                                                                     That wasn't your point - (jake123) - (16)
                                                                                                         I had many points - (orion) - (15)
                                                                                                             Passive aggressive too -NT - (jake123) - (14)
                                                                                                                 You got more to add? - (orion) - (13)
                                                                                                                     Yes - (jake123) - (1)
                                                                                                                         I do agree with you somewhat - (orion)
                                                                                                                     Ok, let me have a whack at it - (hnick) - (10)
                                                                                                                         Qualified opinions - (orion) - (9)
                                                                                                                             Shopping for experts - (ben_tilly) - (8)
                                                                                                                                 Heh.. - (Ashton)
                                                                                                                                 Searching for experts - (orion) - (6)
                                                                                                                                     Any possibility of useful conversation has ended - (ben_tilly) - (5)
                                                                                                                                         Obviously you are mistaken - (orion)
                                                                                                                                         Let me put it another way - (orion) - (3)
                                                                                                                                             Re: Let me put it another way - (JayMehaffey)
                                                                                                                                             Please review the thread from the beginning. - (Another Scott)
                                                                                                                                             Die, Norman! Die! (new thread) - (rcareaga)
                                                                                     But not equally - (ben_tilly)
                                                                                 In the words of Dinah Maria Mulock Craik, - (a6l6e6x)
                             You learn to Love the Mystery - (Ashton)
             You need to understand the meaning of the words you're using - (Another Scott) - (15)
                 Re: You need to understand the meaning of the words you're u - (deSitter) - (14)
                     9 times 6 is 42. -NT - (admin)
                     Yes and no. - (Another Scott) - (9)
                         That is not the reasonableness that Ross is asserting - (ben_tilly) - (8)
                             Hume discussed this - (jake123) - (1)
                                 And to quote Aleister Crowley . . - (Andrew Grygus)
                             Even more interesting "reasonableness" - (Arkadiy) - (5)
                                 Info is in the Principia. - (Another Scott) - (2)
                                     Re: Info is in the Principia. - (deSitter) - (1)
                                         I'm not - (ben_tilly)
                                 Several things - (ben_tilly)
                                 Re: Even more interesting "reasonableness" - (deSitter)
                     To quote Slim Pickens in Blazing Saddles... - (danreck) - (2)
                         Re: To quote Slim Pickens in Blazing Saddles... - (deSitter) - (1)
                             It is the highest compliment I can give. - (danreck)
             And ill met they are - (tuberculosis)
         What I find unreasonable. - (static) - (64)
             Re: What I find unreasonable. - (deSitter)
             But that WAS NOT excluded from the possibilities! - (ben_tilly) - (41)
                 Oops? - (Nightowl)
                 I've been staying out of this... - (Nightowl) - (15)
                     Quite a few believe that - (ben_tilly) - (14)
                         I'm in that group - (FuManChu)
                         Speaking of Catholic thought - (ChrisR) - (12)
                             Nowhere in particular - (ben_tilly) - (11)
                                 Tielhard only wrote once about Piltdown - (ChrisR) - (10)
                                     As I said, this I do not know about - (ben_tilly) - (9)
                                         As long as this thread won't die - (ChrisR) - (8)
                                             I see no evidence of a global goal direction - (ben_tilly) - (7)
                                                 Meandering along - (ChrisR) - (6)
                                                     Re: Meandering along - (deSitter) - (4)
                                                         Which touches on a different concern I've had.... - (ChrisR) - (1)
                                                             Exactly! - (deSitter)
                                                         Your knowledge is insufficient - (ben_tilly) - (1)
                                                             Fascinating - I stand corrected! - (deSitter)
                                                     The boundaries are broader than you might think - (ben_tilly)
                 Good. - (static) - (23)
                     You did not answer the question - (ben_tilly) - (4)
                         I rather thought I did. - (static) - (3)
                             Bullshit - (ben_tilly) - (2)
                                 I made a mistake. - (static) - (1)
                                     How you should interpret my actions - (ben_tilly)
                     Pardon me, but that'll be when pigs fly. - (mmoffitt) - (17)
                         Why would I assail you? - (ben_tilly) - (16)
                             Okay, here we go. - (mmoffitt) - (15)
                                 Umm *cough* - I thought this had been "done": piecemeal - (Ashton) - (7)
                                     "Silly that"? - (mmoffitt) - (6)
                                         Re: "Silly that"? - (deSitter) - (4)
                                             Unless they look too deep. - (mmoffitt) - (3)
                                                 ? It's right on the surface - (deSitter) - (1)
                                                     Concur. -NT - (mmoffitt)
                                                 You have to know what is relevant - (ben_tilly)
                                         Re: "Silly that"? - (Ashton)
                                 I think that you misunderstood me then - (ben_tilly) - (6)
                                     What we can agree to disagree on. - (mmoffitt) - (5)
                                         If you need actual proof... - (ben_tilly) - (4)
                                             Ah... - (mmoffitt) - (3)
                                                 Depends on which mathematical truth... - (ben_tilly) - (2)
                                                     IMO 'religion' is oft a sub-set: religiosity - (Ashton) - (1)
                                                         Einstein's thought on that: - (a6l6e6x)
             "special creation may have occurred" - (Ashton) - (4)
                 Ashton you know me better than that. - (static) - (3)
                     I think you meant... - (Nightowl) - (1)
                         Dang. Thanks. -NT - (static)
                     Why, of course.. - (Ashton)
             Touching faith in the GICB's omnipotence. - (Silverlock) - (15)
                 Re: Touching faith in the GICB's omnipotence. - (deSitter) - (2)
                     Fundamentalists don't like mystery - (JayMehaffey)
                     It is the Heat Death of the literalists - - (Ashton)
                 Re: "right wicked sense of humor"? - (a6l6e6x) - (11)
                     What I believe - (orion) - (10)
                         Re: What I believe - (JayMehaffey) - (9)
                             Re: What I believe - (Ashton) - (2)
                                 While you were out: - (danreck) - (1)
                                     s'OK Danno - (Ashton)
                             I see it as this - (orion) - (5)
                                 Didn't address the issue - (JayMehaffey) - (4)
                                     Disagree - (ben_tilly) - (3)
                                         That's true - (Nightowl)
                                         Re: Disagree - (JayMehaffey) - (1)
                                             It's most likely pointless - (Ashton)
         Faith and Science - (andread)

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