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New Re: "Silly that"?
Science is most definitely something more than a "game". There nesting of theories has very little arbitrariness. The symbolic representation of reality in math is a remarkable TRUE thing about existence. Anyone who has ever struggled through it will understand.
-drl
New Unless they look too deep.
Throw out the Choice Axiom, contemplate Goedel's Theorems and much of it is a game. A truly outstanding game, rigorous, absolutely. An excellent way to explain and predict human observations of reality. But a good approximation of "true" reality? Who knows? And why is that even important? That's religion's domain.
bcnu,
Mikem

I don't do third world languages. So no, I don't do Java.
New ? It's right on the surface
Even the Ptolemaic system of epicycles has a certain beauty. The very act of looking for patterns seems to be a survival instinct. What I originally meant by "reasonable" is that the patterns are there and they are permanent. They are part of the real world, as much as a tree is.
-drl
New Concur.
bcnu,
Mikem

I don't do third world languages. So no, I don't do Java.
New You have to know what is relevant
The pieces of mathematics that you are focussing on (Choice, Goedel, etc) are of little importance in the practice of science, and are highly arbitrary.

For instance there is no absolute truth upon which one can say that the Axiom of Choice should be included in our math, and it has been proven that any result that you can prove about integers using ZFC can be proven without choice as well. Since integers can model computing which can model all of our scientific results, right there is a proof that Choice doesn't matter to science.

Math is a fun game. The application of mathematical techniques to science is not a game, and as Ross says, Anyone who as struggled through understanding it will understand (that).

Cheers,
Ben
"good ideas and bad code build communities, the other three combinations do not"
- [link|http://archives.real-time.com/pipermail/cocoon-devel/2000-October/003023.html|Stefano Mazzocchi]
     I won't walk on coals about that - (ben_tilly) - (183)
         Science and Religion meet here - (orion) - (116)
             There is a Christian anti everything else . . - (Andrew Grygus) - (6)
                 Not every Christian is a fundamentalist - (orion) - (5)
                     Re: Not every Christian is a fundamentalist - (deSitter) - (4)
                         Amen, brother-- and with holy vestments and 'blessed' oil.. -NT - (Ashton)
                         Stupidest thing I've read all year. - (cwbrenn) - (2)
                             Care to explain why? - (deSitter) - (1)
                                 Or, in the words of Heinrich Heine: - (a6l6e6x)
             No, they do NOT meet here - (ben_tilly) - (30)
                 Yes indeed they do - (orion) - (29)
                     Talk about rapidly changing your position - (ben_tilly) - (6)
                         Fix your ring species link, please. - (admin)
                         Not really - (orion) - (4)
                             You can use whatever definition you want - (ben_tilly) - (3)
                                 Let us just agree to disagree then. - (orion) - (2)
                                     /me chuckles while pulling hair out -NT - (bepatient)
                                     Yes, we have passed the point of uselessness - (ben_tilly)
                     Norman... - (pwhysall) - (21)
                         Peter... - (orion) - (20)
                             Riiiiiight. - (pwhysall) - (19)
                                 Re: Riiiiiight. - (deSitter) - (1)
                                     Re: Riiiiiight. - (pwhysall)
                                 It is because - (orion) - (16)
                                     potential root cause is fear of death? Interesting - (boxley) - (15)
                                         Fear of the known - (orion) - (14)
                                             so fear is the main issue - (boxley) - (13)
                                                 "The Gift of Fear" is an interesting book. - (Another Scott)
                                                 Perhaps it is part of the illness - (orion) - (11)
                                                     Re: Perhaps it is part of the illness - (deSitter) - (10)
                                                         You have no idea what you are talking about - (Nightowl) - (9)
                                                             Re: You have no idea what you are talking about - (deSitter) - (3)
                                                                 You clearly stated... - (Nightowl) - (2)
                                                                     Re: You clearly stated... - (deSitter) - (1)
                                                                         Well as Scott said in the Hardware forum - (Nightowl)
                                                             Not to mention - (orion) - (4)
                                                                 Re: Not to mention - (deSitter)
                                                                 perhaps you need to take up driving in demolition derbies - (boxley) - (1)
                                                                     You have a point - (orion)
                                                                 Nah, I agree with Ross - (lister)
             Science and Religion don't intersect much. - (JayMehaffey) - (60)
                 Re: Science and Religion don't intersect much. - (deSitter)
                 Oh yeah? - (orion) - (58)
                     Still not getting it - (JayMehaffey) - (57)
                         No you are not getting it - (orion) - (56)
                             Re: No you are not getting it - (JayMehaffey) - (54)
                                 You are getting some of it - (orion) - (53)
                                     Re: You are getting some of it - (JayMehaffey) - (52)
                                         One more time with feeling - (orion) - (51)
                                             Re: One more time with feeling - (JayMehaffey) - (7)
                                                 Some more information - (orion) - (6)
                                                     What was the point of that? - (JayMehaffey) - (5)
                                                         The point was - (orion) - (4)
                                                             Re: The point was - (JayMehaffey) - (3)
                                                                 Apparently you missed part of that review quote - (orion) - (2)
                                                                     "Were atheists" ne "are atheists" - (ben_tilly)
                                                                     I saw that - (JayMehaffey)
                                             Ah, yes - (ben_tilly) - (42)
                                                 It shows an example - (orion) - (41)
                                                     You need some perspective - (ben_tilly) - (40)
                                                         excellent +10 - (deSitter)
                                                         And that is a decently compact one. - (Ashton)
                                                         More suspect evidence - (orion) - (37)
                                                             Talk about missing the point - (ben_tilly) - (36)
                                                                 I was presented it as - (orion) - (35)
                                                                     What is that about motes vs beams? - (ben_tilly) - (34)
                                                                         The truth is - (orion) - (33)
                                                                             Do you think that your opinion should count or not? - (ben_tilly) - (32)
                                                                                 Everyone's opinions count - (orion) - (30)
                                                                                     Re: Everyone's opinions count - (jake123) - (28)
                                                                                         Re: Everyone's opinions count - (deSitter)
                                                                                         Here in the US - (orion) - (26)
                                                                                             Not the same. - (admin) - (6)
                                                                                                 I only ask - (orion) - (5)
                                                                                                     That's not what you said. -NT - (admin) - (4)
                                                                                                         What did I say? - (orion) - (3)
                                                                                                             MWBC. 'nuff said. -NT - (jake123) - (2)
                                                                                                                 Sorry I did not get that - (orion) - (1)
                                                                                                                     Here's the one that I mean: - (jake123)
                                                                                             Re: Here in the US - (jake123) - (18)
                                                                                                 Well I could have been reading it wrong - (orion) - (17)
                                                                                                     That wasn't your point - (jake123) - (16)
                                                                                                         I had many points - (orion) - (15)
                                                                                                             Passive aggressive too -NT - (jake123) - (14)
                                                                                                                 You got more to add? - (orion) - (13)
                                                                                                                     Yes - (jake123) - (1)
                                                                                                                         I do agree with you somewhat - (orion)
                                                                                                                     Ok, let me have a whack at it - (hnick) - (10)
                                                                                                                         Qualified opinions - (orion) - (9)
                                                                                                                             Shopping for experts - (ben_tilly) - (8)
                                                                                                                                 Heh.. - (Ashton)
                                                                                                                                 Searching for experts - (orion) - (6)
                                                                                                                                     Any possibility of useful conversation has ended - (ben_tilly) - (5)
                                                                                                                                         Obviously you are mistaken - (orion)
                                                                                                                                         Let me put it another way - (orion) - (3)
                                                                                                                                             Re: Let me put it another way - (JayMehaffey)
                                                                                                                                             Please review the thread from the beginning. - (Another Scott)
                                                                                                                                             Die, Norman! Die! (new thread) - (rcareaga)
                                                                                     But not equally - (ben_tilly)
                                                                                 In the words of Dinah Maria Mulock Craik, - (a6l6e6x)
                             You learn to Love the Mystery - (Ashton)
             You need to understand the meaning of the words you're using - (Another Scott) - (15)
                 Re: You need to understand the meaning of the words you're u - (deSitter) - (14)
                     9 times 6 is 42. -NT - (admin)
                     Yes and no. - (Another Scott) - (9)
                         That is not the reasonableness that Ross is asserting - (ben_tilly) - (8)
                             Hume discussed this - (jake123) - (1)
                                 And to quote Aleister Crowley . . - (Andrew Grygus)
                             Even more interesting "reasonableness" - (Arkadiy) - (5)
                                 Info is in the Principia. - (Another Scott) - (2)
                                     Re: Info is in the Principia. - (deSitter) - (1)
                                         I'm not - (ben_tilly)
                                 Several things - (ben_tilly)
                                 Re: Even more interesting "reasonableness" - (deSitter)
                     To quote Slim Pickens in Blazing Saddles... - (danreck) - (2)
                         Re: To quote Slim Pickens in Blazing Saddles... - (deSitter) - (1)
                             It is the highest compliment I can give. - (danreck)
             And ill met they are - (tuberculosis)
         What I find unreasonable. - (static) - (64)
             Re: What I find unreasonable. - (deSitter)
             But that WAS NOT excluded from the possibilities! - (ben_tilly) - (41)
                 Oops? - (Nightowl)
                 I've been staying out of this... - (Nightowl) - (15)
                     Quite a few believe that - (ben_tilly) - (14)
                         I'm in that group - (FuManChu)
                         Speaking of Catholic thought - (ChrisR) - (12)
                             Nowhere in particular - (ben_tilly) - (11)
                                 Tielhard only wrote once about Piltdown - (ChrisR) - (10)
                                     As I said, this I do not know about - (ben_tilly) - (9)
                                         As long as this thread won't die - (ChrisR) - (8)
                                             I see no evidence of a global goal direction - (ben_tilly) - (7)
                                                 Meandering along - (ChrisR) - (6)
                                                     Re: Meandering along - (deSitter) - (4)
                                                         Which touches on a different concern I've had.... - (ChrisR) - (1)
                                                             Exactly! - (deSitter)
                                                         Your knowledge is insufficient - (ben_tilly) - (1)
                                                             Fascinating - I stand corrected! - (deSitter)
                                                     The boundaries are broader than you might think - (ben_tilly)
                 Good. - (static) - (23)
                     You did not answer the question - (ben_tilly) - (4)
                         I rather thought I did. - (static) - (3)
                             Bullshit - (ben_tilly) - (2)
                                 I made a mistake. - (static) - (1)
                                     How you should interpret my actions - (ben_tilly)
                     Pardon me, but that'll be when pigs fly. - (mmoffitt) - (17)
                         Why would I assail you? - (ben_tilly) - (16)
                             Okay, here we go. - (mmoffitt) - (15)
                                 Umm *cough* - I thought this had been "done": piecemeal - (Ashton) - (7)
                                     "Silly that"? - (mmoffitt) - (6)
                                         Re: "Silly that"? - (deSitter) - (4)
                                             Unless they look too deep. - (mmoffitt) - (3)
                                                 ? It's right on the surface - (deSitter) - (1)
                                                     Concur. -NT - (mmoffitt)
                                                 You have to know what is relevant - (ben_tilly)
                                         Re: "Silly that"? - (Ashton)
                                 I think that you misunderstood me then - (ben_tilly) - (6)
                                     What we can agree to disagree on. - (mmoffitt) - (5)
                                         If you need actual proof... - (ben_tilly) - (4)
                                             Ah... - (mmoffitt) - (3)
                                                 Depends on which mathematical truth... - (ben_tilly) - (2)
                                                     IMO 'religion' is oft a sub-set: religiosity - (Ashton) - (1)
                                                         Einstein's thought on that: - (a6l6e6x)
             "special creation may have occurred" - (Ashton) - (4)
                 Ashton you know me better than that. - (static) - (3)
                     I think you meant... - (Nightowl) - (1)
                         Dang. Thanks. -NT - (static)
                     Why, of course.. - (Ashton)
             Touching faith in the GICB's omnipotence. - (Silverlock) - (15)
                 Re: Touching faith in the GICB's omnipotence. - (deSitter) - (2)
                     Fundamentalists don't like mystery - (JayMehaffey)
                     It is the Heat Death of the literalists - - (Ashton)
                 Re: "right wicked sense of humor"? - (a6l6e6x) - (11)
                     What I believe - (orion) - (10)
                         Re: What I believe - (JayMehaffey) - (9)
                             Re: What I believe - (Ashton) - (2)
                                 While you were out: - (danreck) - (1)
                                     s'OK Danno - (Ashton)
                             I see it as this - (orion) - (5)
                                 Didn't address the issue - (JayMehaffey) - (4)
                                     Disagree - (ben_tilly) - (3)
                                         That's true - (Nightowl)
                                         Re: Disagree - (JayMehaffey) - (1)
                                             It's most likely pointless - (Ashton)
         Faith and Science - (andread)

Because you should never underestimate the unoriginality of the very stupid.
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