Beep, the New World Order proselyte!!!

Post #84,033 by jb4 2/25/03 2:04:23 PM Reply	Beep, the New World Order proselyte!!! And if its so >horrendous< for American companies to do this...where is the equal disdain for the government of France condoning these actions? and you have the gall (or is it Gaul?) to rail against silverlock for "hypocracy". This is about as hypocritical a statement as you have ever uttered (at least, in print)! I don't give a flying fuck what the Frogs do. I don't have to follow their laws, I have to follow ours. And so does Halliburton. And so does Cheney. Whether you like it or not. jb4 "Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning." Rich Cook
Post #84,034 by boxley 2/25/03 2:07:57 PM Reply	Question, it is illegal for US Citizens to travel to cuba many of them travel to bermuda where it is legal to travel to cuba. Many do just that. They are breaking no Bermudan law and since they did not travel from the US to cuba only from the US to Bermuda they are not really breaking US law. I see a similarity between the issues. Comments? thanx, bill will work for cash and other incentives [link\|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html\|skill set] questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org] \ufffdOmni Gaul Delenda est!\ufffd Ceasar
Post #84,045 by bepatient 2/25/03 2:50:54 PM Reply	Not even applicable here. Because there was nothing illegal in the transactions. It is entirely likely that they would have been within the law >even if the transactions originated in the US<. These guys >want so badly< for this to be illegal that they're willing to invent legal positions that don't exist. I guess they consider creating the "vast left wing conspiricy" as >turn-about is fair play" ;) You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! _{Laurie Anderson} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #84,093 by tuberculosis 2/25/03 5:38:46 PM Reply	Actually, its not Case law has shown that free Americans can go anywhere they like (Lawyer uncle looked this up for me). What kind of government restricts where its citizens can go? It is, however, illegal to engage in commerce of any sort - IOW, no trade with Cuba. Its the embargo (or as the Cubans call it - blockade). Now the tricky bit is proving you didn't trade dollars for anything while in Cuba. No meals, no drinks, no fees of any kind. A few cruisers on sail boats have visited Cuba and "self hosted" (they say) - which is to say - only ate food they brought, drank rum they brought, and only walked around - no trade. Its getting harder to prove that though and the pitbull feds are turning up the heat on these people when they catch them to try to make them examples and discourage the rest of us from going there. There sure were a lot of boats flying US flags at Marina Hemingway New Years Eve tho... The whole Cuban situation is a microcosm of what's wrong with US foreign policy. Its the best example we have of how embargos and economic sanctions are ineffective, how not all dicatators are evil (Castro seems to be doing alright by his people given his constraints). The idea of using illegally occupied territory rightfully belonging to a country whose government we've been trying to topple for almost 40 years to hold prisoners from another war is just too much to take. I think that it's extraordinarily important that we in computer science keep fun in computing. When it started out, it was an awful lot of fun. Of course, the paying customer got shafted every now and then, and after a while we began to take their complaints seriously. We began to feel as if we really were responsible for the successful, error-free perfect use of these machines. I don't think we are. I think we're responsible for stretching them, setting them off in new directions, and keeping fun in the house. I hope the field of computer science never loses its sense of fun. Above all, I hope we don't become missionaries. Don't feel as if you're Bible salesmen. The world has too many of those already. What you know about computing other people will learn. Don't feel as if the key to successful computing is only in your hands. What's in your hands, I think and hope, is intelligence: the ability to see the machine as more than when you were first led up to it, that you can make it more. --Alan Perlis
Post #84,043 by bepatient 2/25/03 2:47:00 PM Reply	And they did. Or aren't you following along. There was nothing illegal about the transactions. Does this not >translate< in English? You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! _{Laurie Anderson} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #84,117 by jb4 2/25/03 7:07:15 PM Reply	Here's what I follow: Silverlock thinks Cheney (albeit by the Halliburtton proxy) broke a law trading with the Iraqis. You don't. In the dust-up that followed, you challenged him to show the same level of outrage toward the French Govt for allowing trading witht he Iraqis as he showed in the Halliburton proxy for Cheney trading with the Iraqis. I claimed that this is a New World Order position; that one should be outraged in what an autonomous ruling body (in this case the French Govt) decides to do, if it is different from what you own govt does. I claimed that this is a hypocritical position for you to take, because you have railed indefatiguably against similar New World Order-type positions in the past. No, I think I've been following along quite nicely, actually... jb4 "Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning." Rich Cook
Post #84,211 by bepatient 2/25/03 11:52:45 PM Reply	You want to give a link? Possibly? Just asking. I don't recall any specific situation that you reference. I won't call you a liar like the "high mip" whiners around here...nor get huffy and demand an apology. Just show me where I said something similar or supported an opposite position...in your opinion. You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! _{Laurie Anderson} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #84,608 by jb4 2/27/03 9:53:26 AM Reply	Well, I did a search... ... of your posts with the word "UN". I found 29 (but I discarded one because the "UN" was part of the string "UNAMERICAN"). In these posts, I found you to be unabashedly dirisive of the UN, and what it stands for. In some people's minds, the UN is the symbol (or, perhaps, whipping-boy) for the "New World Order", which I understand to be a talk-show-host buzzword for a single world government (yeah, like that's every going to happen). Wit the tenor and tone of your posts re: the U.N., I would surmise that you are no great fan of the "New World Order". And yet, the post at the head of this thread seems to me to indicate a sudden, unaccustomed support for the UN...and therefore by extension, the New World Order, you seem to heretofore eschew. Am I "reading you by your posts", or am I missing something? jb4 "Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning." Rich Cook
Post #84,636 by bepatient 2/27/03 12:27:03 PM Reply	There has been... ...a decisive show of support given to France because they are "representing the will of their people" by holding against the US. I attributed that belief to someone here that didn't hold it...so I recanted. There seems to be an equal amount of derision being thrown around based on this Huffington piece and others about the US motivation being "purely financial"...with a complete ignorance of the fact that 1) France agreed to the same embargo terms 2) they have and continue to violate those terms with materials that don't even qualify for exempt status under "oil for food" and 3) because of #2 they have and are at much greater financial risk with Saddma's removal An equal argument leveled against France, (they're in it for the money)however...doesn't seem to be acceptable. Its "France-bashing" and thats "bad form". It is not a "new world order" argument. I >am< derisive of the UN...but NOT what it stands for. Its principles are good...its application of those principles is spotty...and its procedural inadequacies are about to kill it outright. If there is to be a "new world order" under the UN banner...they MUST enforce their own resolutions. Allowing a rogue nation to play you like a fiddle does nothing for your credibility as an organization. The "Star Trek" dream of a unified government of earth isn't a bad thing. Accepting it as an eventual reality is a stretch (as you apparently agree). Its the willingness to be supportive of one while remaining blissfully ignorant of reality while damning another with the exact same reality that bothers me. Better explanation? You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! _{Laurie Anderson} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #84,646 by jb4 2/27/03 1:53:52 PM Reply	Nope. Clear. thanks for the clarification. I believe we can put this thread to rest, as I now understand your position. We can instead get back to our regular squabbling, which is already in progress.... If only we had been allowed to count the hanging chads tlike the FLSC said we could.... ;-) jb4 "Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning." Rich Cook
Post #84,665 by bepatient 2/27/03 3:34:22 PM Reply	Only dimples. Else there be lawlessness :) You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! _{Laurie Anderson} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #84,775 by Ashton 2/28/03 2:48:27 AM Reply	Propinquitous LRPD:____ snort

Welcome to IWETHEY!