I guess the link to Molly...

Post #83,796 by bepatient 2/24/03 2:48:53 PM Reply	I guess the link to Molly... ...defending the French...and the editorial content within...can't be considered support for the French. Humble apologies :\| So you don't, in fact, support the French? Is this what you are saying? I'm not defending anyone. There's nothing to defend them from. No stock holdings. Children make that a mutually exclusive endeavor at the moment. Besides...the markets horrible...or didn't you notice. Just pointing out first, a lie and second, hypocrisy. You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! _{Laurie Anderson} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #83,801 by Silverlock 2/24/03 3:02:28 PM Reply	Back to the point, shall we? I keep stressing this, Halliburton broke US law by using French subsidiaries to sell oilfield equipment to the Iraqis. You say this is legal. I say it is illegal and they got away with it. Why do you keep focusing on france? I called you out on your description of the "un-named" company and owner in your post describing how they only sold this stuff for humanitarian reasons. Twist it how you will, my point is simple. They got away with breaking the law. For profit. NOT for humnitarian reasons. As for Molly, If you want to rip me for agreeing with some of her points, do so. Somewhere else. Let's try to keep this thread on point, OK? How many lives per gallon? --Sign outside of various churches
Post #83,804 by drewk 2/24/03 3:14:04 PM Reply	Questions I'm not trying to make a point by asking, I actually want to know the answers. Does Halliburton own more than 50% of either of the French companies? Did the law specify what percentage a U.S. corporation could own of foreign companies engaged in trade with Iraq? (I take as a given that U.S. law can not regulate the behavior of a foreign corporation.) How did the law treat the question of majority ownership of a subsidiary incorporated in another country?[1] Until I know the answers to these it sounds like the problem may be that national law is inadequate for regulating the behavior of multi-national corporations. Which is, of course, just how the multi-nationals like it. [1] In fact what is the general rule if a U.S. corporation buys a controlling share of a foreign corporation. Is that now a U.S. company with a foreign headquarters? Could the U.S. (theoretically) revoke their articles of incorporation? === Implicitly condoning stupidity since 2001.
Post #83,806 by Silverlock 2/24/03 3:24:01 PM Reply	Good questions. I may remember this wrong, but my understanding was that Halliburton originally had the contracts and when laws were passed prohibiting them doing business in Iraq, then the subsidiaries took over. I'll try and find some sources. How many lives per gallon? --Sign outside of various churches
Post #83,809 by bepatient 2/24/03 3:30:31 PM Reply	Find those sources. That prove Halliburton complied with the law. Go right ahead :) You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! _{Laurie Anderson} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #83,814 by Silverlock 2/24/03 3:44:26 PM Reply	You feel good about defending slime? Cheney; We won't do business with Iraq. Neither us nor our foriegn partners. (paraphrased) Well maybe just a little. Ok, maybe [link\|http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2001/6/24/80648.shtml\|more] than a llittle. I was wrong about the timing though. How many lives per gallon? --Sign outside of various churches
Post #83,817 by bepatient 2/24/03 3:49:09 PM Reply	Oh. So you lie about something... ...then I call you on that lie. You seem to think that attacking me is the solution. You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! _{Laurie Anderson} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #83,820 by Silverlock 2/24/03 4:03:15 PM Reply	Lie? They broke the law. They found a lawyers trick to get around being convicted/punished for it. The oilfield equipment was produced by Halliburton. It was sold to Iraq. That was illegal. They shrouded it in middlemen. Sound business practices, huh? Unless of course, you are saying I was lieing about something else. If so, point it out for me will ya? How many lives per gallon? --Sign outside of various churches
Post #83,822 by bepatient 2/24/03 4:13:33 PM Reply	The only one saying it is illegal is you. Oh, well, maybe a web site or 2. No complaint filed. No conviction. No nothing. Because the law wasn't violated. No matter how much you try to claim it was. So yes. You lied. You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! _{Laurie Anderson} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #83,829 by Silverlock 2/24/03 4:46:47 PM Reply	If you say so. No conviction. By that logic, I want to hear you say "Clinton did nothing illegal". What part of "got away with it" doesn't make sense? Let's go for the absurd. No one, according to you, who is not convicted has ever acted illegaly. I know you don't think that. Neither do I. People commit crimes all the time without getting caught/prosecuted/convicted. Doesn't mean they were acting legally. My sincerely held belief is that they acted illegaly and got away with it. If you define that as a lie, so be it. I say they acted illegaly and didn't get caught. You say since they didn't get caught, they didn't act illegaly. If I'm wrong about your position, I apologise, but that's what it looks like. How many lives per gallon? --Sign outside of various churches
Post #83,832 by bepatient 2/24/03 5:01:17 PM Reply	Hmmm. Let me see. What part of >not illegal< is it that you have having problems with? There was nothing illegal in what happened. No laws were violated. No matter how much you insist they were. They had nothing to "get caught" doing? Is that plain enough? You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! _{Laurie Anderson} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #83,875 by Silverlock 2/24/03 8:55:00 PM Reply	plain enough I will accept for now, your belief that a megacorporation did not break laws applicable to it through underhanded dealings. Will you accept my belief that they did? We disagree. I don't see a common ground. How many lives per gallon? --Sign outside of various churches
Post #83,899 by Brandioch 2/24/03 10:15:24 PM Reply	Is OJ guilty of murder? More clearly, how do you view "the Law"? Do you place the Letter of the Law above the Spirit of the Law? Can someone "break" the Law if someone finds a loophole? If not, then why do we use the term "loophole"? I believe that it is because some people place the Spirit of the Law above the Letter of the Law. The Letter of the Law is NOT always perfect. So it is possible to break the Spirit of the Law while still following the Letter of the Law. I will leave it up to everyone else what type of person values the Letter of the Law more than the Spirit -and- What type of person values the Spirit of the Law more than the Letter.
Post #83,910 by Silverlock 2/24/03 10:35:44 PM Reply	ok, On this, I agree. How many lives per gallon? --Sign outside of various churches
Post #83,913 by Simon_Jester 2/24/03 10:42:20 PM Reply	In any case...relax..... Haliburton made sure it crossed it's i's and t's whenever it does a deal. It won't be caught flaunting US law that much....at least with regard to international deals. (Tax evasion may be another story). Besides, did you see they charged to build the cages in Guantamo?
Post #83,922 by Silverlock 2/24/03 11:01:17 PM Reply	You want me to stay calm? Or you want me to relax? Doesn't matter. I'll mouth off when I think it needed. Hopefully in a relaxed manner. :) How many lives per gallon? --Sign outside of various churches
Post #83,932 by bepatient 2/24/03 11:39:37 PM Reply	Nobody called it a loophole... ...but you and Silver. You are making something up and then tossing it in with completely unrelated situations. All the while "pretending" to ignore. Its not a letter vs spirit argument. Except to you...in a veiled attempt to toss around some holier than thou insults. Pathetic is your word for that. You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! _{Laurie Anderson} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #83,933 by Silverlock 2/24/03 11:49:50 PM Reply	You don't consider this a loophole? Clearly circomventing the laws of our country to do business with our declared enemies? Oh, never mind. I forgot. Profit was involved. How many lives per gallon? --Sign outside of various churches
Post #83,939 by Brandioch 2/25/03 12:11:51 AM Reply	Another possible factor. Do you believe that certain people would hold an opinion contrary to their current opinion if the company involved had retained the services of Bill or Hillary Clinton? I think there the discussion would be the complete opposite of what we're seeing right now.
Post #83,943 by bepatient 2/25/03 1:17:22 AM 2/25/03 1:19:56 AM Reply	Obviously not. Its not a hidden clause. Its not a "lttle known sub-paragraph" Its not any of these things. Why. Because the transaction was absolutely legal. There was no circumventing involved. There was no "loophole" involved. But I expect you to continue this..and continue your attacks against me...simply because I know your position that anyone even remotely involved with the current US government is an evil, lying bastard thief...and then you get really nasty with oil men. So none of them could possibly be upholding the law. (except the Holy Ghost" tm of the law maybe) You continue to INVENT "loopholes". Talk about "letter" versus "spirit" of the law (and then mention Clinton like I would have a different opinion if it were >him<)(post edit..sorry...not you) I don't have that problem...much as it would be >convenient< to assume. Your "friend" continues to be too afraid to tackle any issue with me directly. But since he has been supporting Chirac..well you know where that leads..we're far enough right for that to be very clear. I expect more of the same. You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! _{Laurie Anderson} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient] Edited by bepatient Feb. 25, 2003, 01:19:56 AM EST Expand All History
Post #84,009 by Silverlock 2/25/03 1:23:09 PM Reply	Take it slow I am not attacking you. I am attacking your position. Your mindset. Your reflexive defense of all things monetary. Slow down and make sure you are not confusing me with someone else. I see by your edit that for at least part of this exchange, you did have me confused with someone else. Are you sure you didn't make the same error elsewhere? How many lives per gallon? --Sign outside of various churches
Post #84,042 by bepatient 2/25/03 2:45:23 PM Reply	I did. And thought the post edit addition would clarify (the "sorry not you" piece) that section of post not directed at you specifically. Its not "reflexive defense". It is a very simple reasoning. You made a false statement. I called you on it. I did recant on a portion of the debate with you due to your clarification on stance with "nos amis". I had assumed a position based upon one of your posts that you later clarified. (All in good spirit, too...unlike a few others around here;-)) Then we enter a little go-round about "letter vs spirit" in which you start railing on the >intent<. You don't know anything about the intent. You assume it based on your prejudice...a prejudice that I don't share. And here...you are probably correct...we can agree to disagree. I don't care to >ever< enter a place where prosecution is based upon some mythical "spirit" of law. You seem quite fine with assuming guilt first, based on your own personal prejudice. Is that the country that you want made in your own image? Its a slippery slope that applies evenly across the board. I do not support prosecution on "spirit" of the law because that "spirit" is open to radical differences in interpretation. And just discussing "spirit" versus letter, in my opinion, is an attempt to level guilt at the innocent. Individual >or< business. And sooner or later, these assumptions of guilt are NOT leveled at the "evil business"...but they are leveled at an individual member of that business. Much like here. And there is no basis nor any proof that Cheney was involved or even aware that these sales were made. (Oh sure...you will retort "How could he NOT know...he was in charge"..etc...all assumptions...all presumed guilt...all leveled at an individual based upon your personal prejudice) See where this is going? You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! _{Laurie Anderson} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #84,050 by Silverlock 2/25/03 3:03:26 PM Reply	Letter vs spirit post wasn't from me. I thought you may have made that mistake. Just clarifying. How many lives per gallon? --Sign outside of various churches
Post #84,059 by bepatient 2/25/03 3:26:09 PM Reply	Yep...review complete. You held that it was illegal. No spirit mentioned. So we can stick to the original "you're wrong" assessment that I made earlier :) You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! _{Laurie Anderson} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #83,812 by drewk 2/24/03 3:39:52 PM Reply	The problem is still larger than just this one instance Even if it happened exactly as you remember it, the problem IMO still isn't Halliburton, per se. It is that corporations are able to say, "That corporation that is entirely owned and controlled by this corporation really isn't the same entity at all. Nope, that's not us." Any time a nation passes a law saying, "You can't do that," corporate lawyers challenge them to define "you". No matter who the "you" is, the one doing it is never the one the law applies to. === Implicitly condoning stupidity since 2001.
Post #83,816 by Silverlock 2/24/03 3:47:10 PM Reply	Like I said They are slime. Absolutly right about the larger issue. These espousers of "personal responsibility" all seek plausible deniability. How many lives per gallon? --Sign outside of various churches
Post #83,808 by bepatient 2/24/03 3:29:32 PM Reply	Essential to the hypocrisy, The French are not deserving of criticism. The Americans are slime. Yet they are doing the exact same thing. That, my friend, is a hypocritical position. It is not a violation of US law for French companies to sell something to Iraq. I'm not twisting anything. The twisting being done here is by you. Motivation aside. Rebuilding Iraqi capacity was done to enable "oil for food". Pure evil that. You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! _{Laurie Anderson} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #83,813 by Silverlock 2/24/03 3:40:38 PM Reply	Let me see.... You twist my words and ascribe to me positions I haven't taken. Why is that I wonder? Your "creative" recounting of my words- The French are not deserving of criticism. Never said it. Next The Americans are slime. No, the oil companies are slime, not Americans. Yet they are doing the exact same thing. Both the American and French oil companies are flouting the laws of their respective contries? Both are slime, like I've said before. As your premises are false, your conclusion is invalid. How many lives per gallon? --Sign outside of various churches
Post #83,815 by bepatient 2/24/03 3:44:58 PM Reply	Nice tap dance. Lets not see any more support of the French ... shall we... since nothing happens in their oil business (involving foreign reserves and contracting said reserves) that is not reviewed and approved by the government. Other than that. Since they are all slime...I suppose I'll let you dance out of this thread. You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! _{Laurie Anderson} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #83,819 by Silverlock 2/24/03 3:57:39 PM Reply	Soft shoeing it. You seem to place a great deal of weight on my having posted the Ivins column defending France. I asked before, did you read the column? Do you know what she was pointing out? I don't remember her defending the business practices of the French in that column. I don't remember me ever saying anywhere that the French were not deserving of criticism or any words that could be construed that way. You argue your point as if I had woken you from a nap by shouting that position in your ear. You argue against that position quite well. Unfortunatly, it's not my position. How many lives per gallon? --Sign outside of various churches
Post #83,823 by bepatient 2/24/03 4:16:23 PM Reply	And I retract. Because you so eloquently clarified your position. Like I said...lets not see you joining in praise for Chirac, ok? You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! _{Laurie Anderson} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #83,826 by Silverlock 2/24/03 4:35:46 PM Reply	Haven't yet. Don't expect to. How many lives per gallon? --Sign outside of various churches

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