Post #227,645
10/2/05 8:53:33 PM
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The quotation says
that the Church says that people will go astray. In fact, it ridicules exactly the position you're trying to take. Do read it again. --\r\nYou cooin' with my bird?
\r\n[link|http://www.shtuff.us/|shtuff]
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Post #227,682
10/3/05 2:35:05 AM
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Read it again. Still mentions church, not god.
Still states that the church is justified despite its members sinning. That still only makes semantic sense if the church is the only source of moral guidance, whether they claim it's divine or not. Still completely fails to mention other moral sources, such as other religions or humanism.
Matthew Greet
Choose Life. Choose a job. Choose a career. Choose a family. Choose a fucking big television, choose washing machines, cars, compact disc players and electrical tin openers. Choose good health, low cholesterol, and dental insurance. Choose fixed interest mortgage repayments. Choose a starter home. Choose your friends. Choose leisurewear and matching luggage. Choose DIY and wondering who the fuck you are on a Sunday morning. Choose sitting on that couch watching mind-numbing, spirit-crushing game shows, stuffing fucking junk food into your mouth. Choose rotting away at the end of it all, pishing your last in a miserable home, nothing more than an embarrassment to the selfish, fucked up brats you spawned to replace yourself. Choose your future. Choose life... But why would I want to do a thing like that? I chose not to choose life. I chose somethin' else. And the reasons? There are no reasons. Who needs reasons when you've got heroin?
- Mark Renton, Trainspotting.
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Post #227,683
10/3/05 2:50:33 AM
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Nothing whatsoever to do with moral guidance
Here's how it works: \r\n\r\n \r\n- Secular critics of the Church say: "See? The Church didn't prevent the War, therefore the Church is a load of BS! Listen to us instead!"
\r\n- Chesterton responds: "Well, the Church never said it could prevent the War. In fact, the Church has been saying all along that people tend to do this sort of thing, so really when you think about it, that whole Great War thing kind of bolsters their argument."
\r\n \r\n\r\n Where in this does it matter who your source of moral guidance is? \r\n --\r\nYou cooin' with my bird?
\r\n[link|http://www.shtuff.us/|shtuff]
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Post #227,687
10/3/05 3:18:35 AM
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A reasonable argument if only one religion existed
An imperfect church is better than no church at all is a reasonable argument except there are alternatives to the church. Hinduism, buddhism, islam or humanism could also be substituted into the quotation. The author fails to acknowledge these even exist, let alone assert that the catholic church is the preferred choice.
I'd argue in favour of humanism but that's another thread.
Matthew Greet
Choose Life. Choose a job. Choose a career. Choose a family. Choose a fucking big television, choose washing machines, cars, compact disc players and electrical tin openers. Choose good health, low cholesterol, and dental insurance. Choose fixed interest mortgage repayments. Choose a starter home. Choose your friends. Choose leisurewear and matching luggage. Choose DIY and wondering who the fuck you are on a Sunday morning. Choose sitting on that couch watching mind-numbing, spirit-crushing game shows, stuffing fucking junk food into your mouth. Choose rotting away at the end of it all, pishing your last in a miserable home, nothing more than an embarrassment to the selfish, fucked up brats you spawned to replace yourself. Choose your future. Choose life... But why would I want to do a thing like that? I chose not to choose life. I chose somethin' else. And the reasons? There are no reasons. Who needs reasons when you've got heroin?
- Mark Renton, Trainspotting.
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Post #227,694
10/3/05 8:13:15 AM
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so humanism is a religion? Even the secular branch?
glad one of you finally admits it.
thanx,
bill
"the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #227,695
10/3/05 8:18:20 AM
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Fulfils the same functions without the supernatural ****.
I thought I was the pedantic one here.
Matthew Greet
Choose Life. Choose a job. Choose a career. Choose a family. Choose a fucking big television, choose washing machines, cars, compact disc players and electrical tin openers. Choose good health, low cholesterol, and dental insurance. Choose fixed interest mortgage repayments. Choose a starter home. Choose your friends. Choose leisurewear and matching luggage. Choose DIY and wondering who the fuck you are on a Sunday morning. Choose sitting on that couch watching mind-numbing, spirit-crushing game shows, stuffing fucking junk food into your mouth. Choose rotting away at the end of it all, pishing your last in a miserable home, nothing more than an embarrassment to the selfish, fucked up brats you spawned to replace yourself. Choose your future. Choose life... But why would I want to do a thing like that? I chose not to choose life. I chose somethin' else. And the reasons? There are no reasons. Who needs reasons when you've got heroin?
- Mark Renton, Trainspotting.
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Post #227,812
10/3/05 4:29:54 PM
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Who has denied it?
You may be confused by the fact that humanism is not atheism.
Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
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Post #227,815
10/3/05 4:35:53 PM
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those that practice it in the classroom deny its a religion
"the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #227,824
10/3/05 4:54:32 PM
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Which of *us* does that?
You said, "one of you", and don't seem to have been talking to anyone here...
Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
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Post #227,830
10/3/05 5:07:45 PM
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one of you, as in one of you secular humanists
as in one of you christians,
not the figurative use, one of the people in this thread but in the general usage, one of you NFL Monday Night Fans as a local unsanctioned representative.
Lot of folks in America are unhappy that the religion of Secular Humanism is taught in the public schools while christianity is barred at the door. Actually I would prefer that both should be taught in a comparative religion class and no where else.
thanx,
bill
"the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #227,842
10/3/05 5:35:15 PM
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Interesting use of code words there
When I say "secular humanism", I'm referring to a specific atheistic philosophy of tolerance. When you say "secular humanism" you're almost definitely talking about the theory of evolution. As a result we talk past each other.
I strongly object to barring the teaching of what is accepted in science because there happens to be a secular religion that borrows some of the tenents of that science. Like it or not - and I know you don't - evolution is a basic part of the scientific consensus. Leaving it out of the scientific curriculum because we are kowtowing to religious prejudice does a serious disservice to both science and students.
By all means, schools should not be teaching an atheistic theory of universal tolerance for all. But my support for that should not be twisted into support for removing evolution from the science curriculum.
Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
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Post #227,872
10/3/05 8:43:52 PM
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my what a giant code word in your eye
I have said many times that the teaching of evolution should take place in the public schools, I was not talking about evolution at all, I am very comfortable with that theory. when I speak about secular humanism I am speaking about When I say "secular humanism", I'm referring to a specific philosophy of tolerance forced down a student's throat regardless of common sense or prevailing science like recycling. Perhaps a deep draught of read me in my posts is in order :-)
thanx,
bill
"the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #227,879
10/3/05 9:01:34 PM
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Sorry...
I just googled for the phrase and ran across a number of Creationist sites ranting about secular humanism and really talking about evolution. Then jumped to a wrong conclusion.
As I said, I'm fine with not teaching secular humanism. I'm even mildly in support of that.
Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
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Post #227,751
10/3/05 12:41:44 PM
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Ah, so you're taking it as a dilemma
when there is none. Responding to a secular criticism of the Church with "well, you're wrong and what you cited actually strengthens the Church's position more than yours" does not in any way imply "secular humanism and the Catholic Church are the only choices which exist for moral guidance". --\r\nYou cooin' with my bird?
\r\n[link|http://www.shtuff.us/|shtuff]
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Post #227,770
10/3/05 1:54:24 PM
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Wot, no philosophies that aren't to blame?
Claiming the church is less to blame than the secular philosophies in charge is not an unreasonable argument except the author still failed to acknowledge other philosophies, let alone assert that catholicism was better than them. As catholicism suffers blame, just less than the incumbent systems, this suggests that, say, buddhism could be adopted. It seems the author is too blinkered to see that other philosophies even exist. Which is a red flag as far as I'm concerned.
This leads to the question: which philosophy should be adopted? Another thread, perhaps.
Matthew Greet
Choose Life. Choose a job. Choose a career. Choose a family. Choose a fucking big television, choose washing machines, cars, compact disc players and electrical tin openers. Choose good health, low cholesterol, and dental insurance. Choose fixed interest mortgage repayments. Choose a starter home. Choose your friends. Choose leisurewear and matching luggage. Choose DIY and wondering who the fuck you are on a Sunday morning. Choose sitting on that couch watching mind-numbing, spirit-crushing game shows, stuffing fucking junk food into your mouth. Choose rotting away at the end of it all, pishing your last in a miserable home, nothing more than an embarrassment to the selfish, fucked up brats you spawned to replace yourself. Choose your future. Choose life... But why would I want to do a thing like that? I chose not to choose life. I chose somethin' else. And the reasons? There are no reasons. Who needs reasons when you've got heroin?
- Mark Renton, Trainspotting.
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Post #227,826
10/3/05 4:55:49 PM
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OK, seriously.
What the hell does this have to do with the original quote? If someone launches an attack on Roman Catholicism, and someone else responds by pointing out flaws in the criticism, why do you think the respondent is under any sort of obligation to talk about other faiths? Here's how this apparently goes in your world: \r\n\r\n \r\nCritic: Yar, the Church is stupid because of foo and bar. \r\nChesterton: Actually, the Church never made claims about foo, and bar strengthens the Church's position more than yours. \r\nYou: Ah-HA! You didn't mention Zoroastrianism in your defense of the Church! You lose! \r\n \r\n\r\n WTF, mate? --\r\nYou cooin' with my bird?
\r\n[link|http://www.shtuff.us/|shtuff]
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Post #227,844
10/3/05 5:39:42 PM
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The church was not strengthened, it was weakened less.
It is not much of an argument to say that catholicism was better than fascism or imperialism because much less mud stuck to it. Other philosophies became automatically better. An obvious conclusion leading to an obvious question, which the author should have addressed if he wanted to maintain that catholicism is still better.
After all, the statement "I'm a multimillionaire" can be automatically dismissed as delusional if I fail to address the obvious question "So, why do you work as a computer programmer?"
Matthew Greet
Choose Life. Choose a job. Choose a career. Choose a family. Choose a fucking big television, choose washing machines, cars, compact disc players and electrical tin openers. Choose good health, low cholesterol, and dental insurance. Choose fixed interest mortgage repayments. Choose a starter home. Choose your friends. Choose leisurewear and matching luggage. Choose DIY and wondering who the fuck you are on a Sunday morning. Choose sitting on that couch watching mind-numbing, spirit-crushing game shows, stuffing fucking junk food into your mouth. Choose rotting away at the end of it all, pishing your last in a miserable home, nothing more than an embarrassment to the selfish, fucked up brats you spawned to replace yourself. Choose your future. Choose life... But why would I want to do a thing like that? I chose not to choose life. I chose somethin' else. And the reasons? There are no reasons. Who needs reasons when you've got heroin?
- Mark Renton, Trainspotting.
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Post #227,907
10/3/05 11:58:46 PM
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I see.
Let me try it this way. First I'll take a small quote from one of your posts: \r\n\r\n After all, the statement "I'm a multimillionaire" can be automatically dismissed as delusional if I fail to address the obvious question "So, why do you work as a computer programmer?"\r\n
\r\n\r\n Now, I must say that I'm disappointed in you; this quote, which constitutes one part of one post out of the many that you've written, does not comprehensively and specifically address each and every philosophy which has ever existed among humanity or which might ever exist at some point in the future, and therefore I find you ideologically blinkered and intellectually without merit. You really ought to do better if you hope ever to convince anyone. --\r\nYou cooin' with my bird?
\r\n[link|http://www.shtuff.us/|shtuff]
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Post #227,914
10/4/05 2:57:28 AM
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More illustrative example
Suppose you met someone at a party who said "You've heard me. Yes, I am a burglar but I'm nowhere near as bad as the guy you just avoided." Being less immoral than someone else is not a convincing argument. Such a person need not compare himself to every individual in the room, just state some general, comparative, redeeming feature to suggest it's better to talk to him then the other strangers. Anything positive, such as "These guys don't hear half the stories I hear!", might be a start.
Matthew Greet
Choose Life. Choose a job. Choose a career. Choose a family. Choose a fucking big television, choose washing machines, cars, compact disc players and electrical tin openers. Choose good health, low cholesterol, and dental insurance. Choose fixed interest mortgage repayments. Choose a starter home. Choose your friends. Choose leisurewear and matching luggage. Choose DIY and wondering who the fuck you are on a Sunday morning. Choose sitting on that couch watching mind-numbing, spirit-crushing game shows, stuffing fucking junk food into your mouth. Choose rotting away at the end of it all, pishing your last in a miserable home, nothing more than an embarrassment to the selfish, fucked up brats you spawned to replace yourself. Choose your future. Choose life... But why would I want to do a thing like that? I chose not to choose life. I chose somethin' else. And the reasons? There are no reasons. Who needs reasons when you've got heroin?
- Mark Renton, Trainspotting.
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Post #227,916
10/4/05 3:33:43 AM
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You still don't get it.
My reason for posting the quote in the first place was not to provide a comprehensive argument which establishes the moral superiority of the Catholic Church, yet you persist in assuming this. The reason was to point out in humorous fashion the irony and contradiction of a common argument against the Church, something which appears to have been entirely lost on you. --\r\nYou cooin' with my bird?
\r\n[link|http://www.shtuff.us/|shtuff]
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