Greg, YOU give it a rest

Post #145,134 by ben_tilly 3/9/04 8:20:36 PM Reply	Greg, YOU give it a rest You know Greg, I don't give a fuck how much Ross does or doesn't flip out. At least not in comparison with how disgusted I get at watching you goad him on and proceed to turn something relatively minor into as big a mess as you can. If you want to ignore Ross from now to forever more, then just do it. Don't fucking bother any of us - Ross included - with crap about your choice. In particular don't goad him on as much as you can, taunting him with the fact that you are insulting him without reading his responses. Over the years this community has been bleeding people. Sometimes for good reasons, and sometimes not. If you don't change, I may well be next to go. Not because of losses like Karsten. Not because something seems to be in the water in St. Louis. But because one royal asshole named Greg Folkert just can't seem to figure out when to let shit drop. Who sees that person X is having a problem, and then proceeds to escalate it. I don't like seeing it. I don't like seeing responses by people who are being upset by it. And I don't see why I should bother exposing myself to that which I don't want to see. Regards, Ben "about to be added to some twit's idiot list" Tilly "good ideas and bad code build communities, the other three combinations do not" - [link\|http://archives.real-time.com/pipermail/cocoon-devel/2000-October/003023.html\|Stefano Mazzocchi]
Post #145,136 by bepatient 3/9/04 8:24:49 PM Reply	Save for the fact that I know your beliefs.... AMEN :-) If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} It goes in, it must come out._{Teslacle's Deviant to Fudd's Law} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #145,141 by broomberg 3/9/04 8:56:52 PM Reply	Amen as well I enjoy a heated discussion, as long as I have an idea that the other person is not going off the deep end. Except for Greg. I wonder why? Maybe because I always think Greg might be playing at it, so I don't get too worried. So, I started another thread that annoyed Ross. But this time it went overboard. And I watched it happen without attempting to cool it down. Shit.
Post #145,421 by jb4 3/10/04 5:51:15 PM Reply	Hey, don't worry about it First let me say that I actually like Ross. Second let me say that he irritates the piss out of me at least as much as I irritate the piss out of others here (Marlowe, at least...I hope). Ross, if I may paraphrase a Dead Kennedy, sees things as the should be, and says, "Why the FUCK aren't things the way they should be, done the One True Way, Goddammit!...Stop Fucking with me!" Except for that, he is entertaining...to me anyway. (At least, more often than not -- this was a NOT.) I suppose Ross is to Greg what Marlowe (and MM before him) is to me. But to your point, Barry, it seems to me that if the noise of a thread wants to swamp the signal by several tens of dBs, it's not your responsibility to "cool it down". To your credit, you stayed on topic and let the noise wash over you. If only more of us would do that.... jb4 shrub\ufffdbish (Am., from shrub* + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating that facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf.* BULLSHIT
Post #145,140 by folkert 3/9/04 8:55:43 PM Reply	You and others believe what you will (rant and agreement) He was so wrapped up, calling names before I even started retaliating. The point being, he was flipping out for the last three weeks, I ignored it. Ad-Homenim attacks are not something that sits well with me. Believe me, if everyone disappears, it'd be a sad thing. Noise level here in EVERY subject or thread, that he MIGHT THINK he had anything to do with, resorted to name calling, of racist sort. Sorry. but when he just leashed out and smacked at me for nothing. Twas a straw that should not have been laid. As for the history, demands that I personally do something for him, answer his questions, give him details fix his problems, give him encouragement, Help him through tough times and good. I even took time to help on some other levels as well. Back-biting isn't something I really care to have happen to me. I at least would rather he just say thanks for the things I provide for nothing out of no regard for anyone... I jsut don't want to be fighting anymore, but the personal insults and innuendos Bah, slap me harder before it gets close. /me adds a highlighting entry to his css. -- [link\|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net\|greg], [link\|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry\|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ *i_wethey* I did a 10K wheelchair race once. The guy who pushed me still has the whip-marks.
Post #145,268 by ben_tilly 3/10/04 12:07:07 PM Reply	Yes, we will "Believe what we will," that is. Yes, Ross was wigging out. I'm not defending that. Yes, it would be bad if the rest of us left. Nobody doubts that you think that. Unfortunately, one by one, you appear to make the decision that it would be great if X left, and then proceed to escalate with X until something breaks. Unfortunately one of the things that breaks is in bystanders. You leave a bad taste with everyone who witnesses it. Which drives away people you didn't intend to drive away. So why goad him? You say that you don't want to fight. So don't. Just ignore him. You aren't 5, you're grown up now. You don't have to hit Johnny back because he insulted you. Regards, Ben "good ideas and bad code build communities, the other three combinations do not" - [link\|http://archives.real-time.com/pipermail/cocoon-devel/2000-October/003023.html\|Stefano Mazzocchi]
Post #145,342 by folkert 3/10/04 2:43:53 PM Reply	So.. Let me get this straight. Unfortunately, one by one, you appear to make the decision that it would be great if X left, and then proceed to escalate with X until something breaks. To be on the Record here, I don't think anyone should leave. Heed warning signs from others saying they need to take a break, change thier life...etc. So, I escalated with Karsten then? (Afterwards I did, I'll admit that.) So, I escalated with: Chris Wright? Addison Laurent? Craig Cottingham? Brandioch? Steve O'Connor? Jason Alexander? Mark Nordblom? Yaz? Neel Kris(mumble)? Ric Locke? Rob Nelson? John Stainbeck? Wade Bowmer? Papa Joe? Phil Kust? The list could go on, tell me exactly how you see my hand in all of those? I get a bad taste from Ross wiggin' out over ever Subject known to mankind. Whether or not it is justified. I am sure he has ran off quite a few people with NOBODY ever even knowing any different. So why goad him? You say that you don't want to fight. So don't. Just ignore him. You aren't 5, you're grown up now. You don't have to hit Johnny back because he insulted you. And, as you can see, a swift kick in the arse cooled him down quite a bit. Result intended, achieved. So, I guess I grew up in a different Setting. I deal with things head on, most of the time. Sometimes it does indeed get ugly. Sometimes it is quick and painless. Other times, an oblique dealing is needed. Those were failing this time. I couldn't READ with seeing him Blather. It took only 7 posts to break it. 2 more to make sure it was done. Whereas in the past 3 weeks there have been hundreds from Ross carrying on with sexist, racists, homophobic and vulgarities I care not recompense. Say that I did a bad thing. Sure. I did. But how much more would bystanders take of his noise? I got e-mails from some, complaing trying to get him removed. I had zero intention of blocking him. I bluff many times to get points across, this seemed much more apropos than just blocking St Loius. Ben, to be honest, if you leave, it'll make a difference around here, a bad one at that. I don't bicker to for no reason, you should know that. People wouldn't stop feeding him, the milk had to be soured for him. Thoughts to me here or in private are fine. You know my e-mail address. (below) -- [link\|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net\|greg], [link\|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry\|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ *i_wethey* I did a 10K wheelchair race once. The guy who pushed me still has the whip-marks.
Post #145,346 by Nightowl 3/10/04 3:00:48 PM Reply	A couple comments Greg, why would you have to block all of St. Louis if you wanted to block one person from here? That's something I really do not get. Also, regarding the issue at hand, I think maybe the moderators, i.e. Greg and Scott, have the right to say to anyone, including Ross, "hey, stop with all the racial putdowns and biased behaviors TOWARDS other members, not just the topics at hand, because that's what I've been seeing for weeks and not appreciating whatsoever. If you disagree one iota with something Ross says, you're instantly, black, jewish, leftist, radical right, homosexual, Feminist, Nazi, or something else. Ross should be able to express his opinions without demeaning other people, that's my feeling on it. And I personally believe that Scott and Greg and any other Mods here have every right to ask for that sort of behavior to stop, or be contained ONLY in the Flame forum where it won't alienate and disturb everyone else who wants to avoid it. Just my two cents from St. Louis. Nightowl >8# "Don't be a cynic and disconsolate preacher. Don't bewail and moan. Omit the negative propositions. Challenge us with incessant affirmatives. Don't waste yourself in rejection, or bark against the bad, but chant the beauty of the good." Ralph Waldo Emerson
Post #145,349 by pwhysall 3/10/04 3:04:08 PM Reply	One thing you need to understand, hooty one. There are no "mods" here. There's Scott, who's admin, and there's us plebs down here. Peter [link\|http://www.debian.org\|Shill For Hire] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home Page - Now with added Zing!]
Post #145,350 by Nightowl 3/10/04 3:05:05 PM Reply	Regardless what they are called The people who allow us to use this board should have some measure of control over how things are conducted on it. Nightowl >8# "Don't be a cynic and disconsolate preacher. Don't bewail and moan. Omit the negative propositions. Challenge us with incessant affirmatives. Don't waste yourself in rejection, or bark against the bad, but chant the beauty of the good." Ralph Waldo Emerson
Post #145,353 by pwhysall 3/10/04 3:14:51 PM 3/10/04 3:16:11 PM Reply	You miss my point. There is no "they" here. This is a somewhat unconventional place. There's one admin user - Scott - and he got that way because he wrote the software. Greg provides the hosting, but that doesn't earn him any special rights out here on the forums. He's just one of us chickens. There's basically one admin tool - the ban. We're also madly grateful to the above pair (and others who tend other parts of the ZIWT empire). This does not, however, exclude them from a good IFSing when they deserve it. Edit: "Does not excluding them"? Engrish! Peter [link\|http://www.debian.org\|Shill For Hire] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home Page - Now with added Zing!] Edited by pwhysall March 10, 2004, 03:16:11 PM EST Expand All History
Post #145,356 by Arkadiy 3/10/04 3:21:17 PM Reply	The Ban and The Lock -- ...what happened to intelligence of this country? -- Sen. Kerry.
Post #145,358 by pwhysall 3/10/04 3:22:13 PM Reply	Ah yes, good catch. Peter [link\|http://www.debian.org\|Shill For Hire] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home Page - Now with added Zing!]
Post #145,362 by admin 3/10/04 3:39:03 PM Reply	And the Comfy Chair! Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #145,363 by pwhysall 3/10/04 3:46:38 PM Reply	And the soft cushions! With the stuffing all in one corner! Peter [link\|http://www.debian.org\|Shill For Hire] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home Page - Now with added Zing!]
Post #145,380 by Steve Lowe 3/10/04 4:37:31 PM Reply	LRPD: I just KNEW the Good Humor Man was behind this... ----- Steve
Post #145,390 by Nightowl 3/10/04 4:53:56 PM Reply	Maybe so But you miss mine too. THEY, as in Scott and Greg, could also simply decide to NOT admin and NOT Host and then there would be no IWT as we know it, unless someone else took it over. And if it is Scott's software, that might not even be possible. Bottom line, these people make it possible for IWT to exist, it didn't just POOF into existence out of thin air, and we should RESPECT them and do our best to keep the community calm and happy when they request it. Nightowl >8# "Don't be a cynic and disconsolate preacher. Don't bewail and moan. Omit the negative propositions. Challenge us with incessant affirmatives. Don't waste yourself in rejection, or bark against the bad, but chant the beauty of the good." Ralph Waldo Emerson
Post #145,396 by pwhysall 3/10/04 5:07:10 PM Reply	No. No "they". Greg's decision to host has NOTHING to do with what goes on on this forum. Please understand that. It bestows upon him NO special rights and NO special responsibilities in the context of this forum. And you don't need to worry about Scott. He'll let people know when they're crossing the line. And this incarnation of ZIWT did pretty much poof into existence out of thin air. I think it took Scott three weeks to write the initial revision of the code. I know what you're trying to say, Brenda, but you're not quite understanding the dynamic of this place. It's not USENET, it's not Yahoo! Groups, it's not EzBoard, and yet it has aspects of all of these without being quite like any of them. One thing you probably do need to grasp is that there cannot be any kind of "moderation" here. It won't work; this community has members that have been around since 1996. That's eight years, and a long time to know anyone - in real life or online. One of the consequences of this is that it's counter-productive to have moderation when the community is self-moderating. Back in the bad old days at EzBoard, I was a board admin (along with others) but I'm struggling to recall whether I ever did anything over and above fix broken HTML (you couldn't edit your own posts like you can here). There was the Bryce/Scott incident, but that was exceptional. If you don't understand why the phrase "HOWLING WOLVES OF CALUMNIATION!" is funny, then you're not qualified to talk about moderating this community. Back to your post. I respect people according to what they post. When Ross posts nonsense that I can sensibly identify as nonsense, and I give a shit about the subject matter, I'll say so. When he's talking about something I'm interested in, I'll respond favourably. When Greg (our beloved host and master of the ass-crack spelunker) talks rot, he gets told. Even our resident alpha geek, Scott, is not exempt. If Greg decided to not host, we'd have another server up and running in probably two or three days - for the simple reason that I'd do it. I've got the connection and the hardware. It wouldn't be as fast, and I'd probably get the odd snottogram from my ISP, but I'd do it. Go to the twiki and read about our history. Even if you've done it before, read it again to refresh your memory. It's easy to stumble across these forums and think that it's just like another EzBoard or Y! Group without the context of our history. We're not. We're different. Hoo, boy. We're DIFFERENT. Peter [link\|http://www.debian.org\|Shill For Hire] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home Page - Now with added Zing!]
Post #145,403 by Nightowl 3/10/04 5:17:11 PM Reply	Re: No. No "they". Well if they have no special rights, how come they are the main ones allowed to post in the special Admin forum? (I forgot the name of it). I know you're different, trust me, but I also believe that everyone here should RESPECT the people that keep us up and running, and appreciate what they do. Sure anyone else may be able to do it, but they are the ones who took on the task, and they does exist, because two people are a they, and I refer to two people. They doesn't stand for anything but two people, Scott and Greg. And there is some control somewhere from someone or the Ban and Lock features would not exist or ever have been used. I know what you are trying to say too, Peter, but it didn't poof into existence on it's own, Scott wrote it. That's what I mean. It wasn't planted in place on the Internet by Divine Intervention, it was put here. Like I said, it would be a courtesy, then, to the people who made, run, maintain this place, if you like that word better, to help keep this community running more smoothly by following the Forum guidelines, and it DOES have those. Nightowl >8# "Don't be a cynic and disconsolate preacher. Don't bewail and moan. Omit the negative propositions. Challenge us with incessant affirmatives. Don't waste yourself in rejection, or bark against the bad, but chant the beauty of the good." Ralph Waldo Emerson
Post #145,405 by pwhysall 3/10/04 5:25:52 PM Reply	Let's look at it another way. Scott and Greg are not the only ones allowed to post in the Administrivia forum. It's just that we (I admin the Jabber server, for example) like to keep that one forum clear of non-admin issues for the simple reason if one of the various admins posts there, it's important and it will probably have some effect on some service or other. You can post there if you like. You'll get either yelled at or mocked, but there's nothing whatsoever stopping you from doing so. I disagree with your suggestion that we should respect Scott and Greg just for being who they are. I'm grateful to them for what they've done and they know it. When Greg has one of his periodic "being an arse" episodes, then I'm not going to defer to him just because he hosts us; in fact, (as hinted at elsewhere) because he's big enough and ugly enough to look after himself AND to know better, he's going to get it in the shorts perhaps more than other people might. There's nothing anyone can do to keep this place running smoothly over and above thinking about what you're replying to and formulating a reasonable response. When that breaks down, you get little tiffs like the one this thread was originally all about. Don't think of it as respect for the people who made this - after all, it's just a bunch of software and a pile of hardware - it can be replaced and has been in the past, at least twice. Think of it as respect for people who you've come to regard as friends. group hug /me goes off to read Iron John Peter [link\|http://www.debian.org\|Shill For Hire] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home Page - Now with added Zing!]
Post #145,407 by Nightowl 3/10/04 5:28:42 PM Reply	Okay, I concur But I'd change it to thinking of it as respect for IWT as a whole, as a community, and as friends as well. Nightowl >8# "Don't be a cynic and disconsolate preacher. Don't bewail and moan. Omit the negative propositions. Challenge us with incessant affirmatives. Don't waste yourself in rejection, or bark against the bad, but chant the beauty of the good." Ralph Waldo Emerson
Post #145,466 by folkert 3/10/04 7:20:06 PM Reply	Periodic? How's that? When Greg has one of his *periodic* "being an arse" episodes, then I'm not going to defer to him just because he hosts us; in fact, (as hinted at elsewhere) because he's big enough and ugly enough to look after himself AND to know better, he's going to get it in the shorts perhaps more than other people might. Periodic? Guess I am not holding my end of the teeter-totter down enough. -- [link\|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net\|greg], [link\|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry\|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ *i_wethey* I did a 10K wheelchair race once. The guy who pushed me still has the whip-marks.
Post #145,408 by danreck 3/10/04 5:28:44 PM Reply	You stupid ass clown... We were rabid dogs (most of the time), not wolves, fer chrissakes. ---ooo000ooo--- Please read him in his posts... Just a few thoughts, Danno
Post #145,409 by danreck 3/10/04 5:30:03 PM Reply	Re: You stupid ass clown... I no that this is truth. Deny it if you will... [link\|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=145408\|http://z.iwethey.org...?contentid=145408] Just a few thoughts, Danno
Post #145,410 by danreck 3/10/04 5:30:52 PM Reply	Re: You stupid ass clown... Or if you want more proofs [link\|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=145409\|http://z.iwethey.org...?contentid=145409] Go ahead and try and deny it. Just a few thoughts, Danno
Post #145,467 by folkert 3/10/04 7:20:45 PM 3/10/04 7:21:11 PM Reply	Only three? [link\|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=145467\|Oh come one come all] -- [link\|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net\|greg], [link\|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry\|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ *i_wethey* I did a 10K wheelchair race once. The guy who pushed me still has the whip-marks. Edited by folkert March 10, 2004, 07:21:11 PM EST Expand All History
Post #145,411 by CRConrad 3/10/04 5:31:45 PM Reply	No, I think the rabid ones were wolves. The dogs... ...were usually yellow (and not [explicitly, at least] rabid), weren't they? [link\|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode\|Christian R. Conrad] (I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.) You know you're doing good work when you get flamed by an idiot. -- [link\|http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/35/34218.html\|Andrew Wittbrodt]
Post #145,551 by danreck 3/11/04 9:52:26 AM Reply	Re: No, I think the rabid ones were wolves. The dogs... IIRC, CRC, MFAC (TLA - jabber), the persecutors were wolves only a few times. Most of the times the calumnators were rabid dogs... YMMV. CU. Just a few thoughts, Danno
Post #145,583 by bepatient 3/11/04 11:36:39 AM Reply	oo0..Please stop calumniating..0oo If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} It goes in, it must come out._{Teslacle's Deviant to Fudd's Law} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #145,593 by deSitter 3/11/04 11:52:07 AM Reply	ooO Sauvons Michel! Ooo We should all make a petition, hunt him down, and email him. I'll translate to French (or jake would do better). -drl
Post #145,594 by Another Scott 3/11/04 11:52:47 AM Reply	Point of order. Is it stupid-ass clown or stupid ass-clown? Cheers, Scott. (Who likes bucket-headed caluminator better.)
Post #145,597 by admin 3/11/04 11:56:08 AM Reply	Re: Point of order. It's stupid ass-clown, you stupid-ass clown. Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #145,598 by Another Scott 3/11/04 11:57:45 AM Reply	Thanks for clearing that up....
Post #145,600 by admin 3/11/04 12:02:00 PM 3/11/04 12:02:31 PM Reply	np. <mutter>Stupid git.</mutter> ;-) Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..." Edited by admin March 11, 2004, 12:02:31 PM EST Expand All History
Post #145,764 by slugbug 3/11/04 11:17:37 PM Reply	LOL!
Post #145,646 by boxley 3/11/04 1:44:42 PM Reply	one are adjectives describing a noun the second is an adjective describing a noun thanx, bill when I was young I envisioned myself as the embodiment of Trinity, Now I realize I have turned into the Bambino questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #145,414 by admin 3/10/04 5:45:30 PM Reply	20 hours, not 3 weeks Duration, not calendar, obviously. There has been considerable work put in since then, to be sure. Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #145,420 by pwhysall 3/10/04 5:51:09 PM Reply	I meant calendar I didn't really think that it took 21 days of developer effort to get us going :) Thanks for the clarification. Peter [link\|http://www.debian.org\|Shill For Hire] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home Page - Now with added Zing!]
Post #145,428 by jb4 3/10/04 6:00:23 PM Reply	ICLRPD (new thread) Created as new thread #145427 titled [link\|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=145427\|ICLRPD] jb4 shrub\ufffdbish (Am., from shrub* + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating that facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf.* BULLSHIT
Post #145,475 by folkert 3/10/04 8:15:32 PM Reply	Confirming your statement(s) Greg's decision to host has NOTHING to do with what goes on on this forum. Please understand that. Exact-a-mundo. If I didna wanna host... I wouldn't. What goes on here, bears NO amount on changing that. It bestows upon him NO special rights and NO special responsibilities in the context of this forum. Maybe a bit of respect or thanks would be nice once in a while, but once again bears NO amount on changing that. But then again, can't expect respect or thanks from Peter. (a wanker of a different sort) Hoo, boy. We're DIFFERENT. That ain't the HALF of it. -- [link\|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net\|greg], [link\|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry\|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ *i_wethey* I did a 10K wheelchair race once. The guy who pushed me still has the whip-marks.
Post #145,423 by jb4 3/10/04 5:56:35 PM Reply	TLA translation, please: IFS?!? jb4 shrub\ufffdbish (Am., from shrub* + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating that facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf.* BULLSHIT
Post #145,424 by pwhysall 3/10/04 5:58:27 PM Reply	Internet Face Stab A truly revolutionary and innovative method of hurting people. Peter [link\|http://www.debian.org\|Shill For Hire] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home Page - Now with added Zing!]
Post #145,426 by Another Scott 3/10/04 5:59:34 PM Reply	Grr. You're too quick! Ruined me joke! ;-)
Post #145,429 by pwhysall 3/10/04 6:00:37 PM Reply	I know :\\ You hadn't posted yours when I hit "save"... Peter [link\|http://www.debian.org\|Shill For Hire] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home Page - Now with added Zing!]
Post #145,431 by jb4 3/10/04 6:06:03 PM Reply	Re: Internet Face Stab Thank you...I think. (and I'd like to hear Scott's joke, while we're at it!) jb4 shrub\ufffdbish (Am., from shrub* + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating that facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf.* BULLSHIT
Post #145,439 by Another Scott 3/10/04 6:16:23 PM Reply	Not much of a joke, really... Just hit the link and scroll.
Post #154,267 by inthane-chan 5/7/04 7:32:18 PM Reply	Wow. This is ranked #1 search result for "internet face stab". Tired of lying in the sunshine staying home to watch the rain. You are young and life is long and there is time to kill today. And then one day you find ten years have got behind you. No one told you when to run, you missed the starting gun.
Post #154,273 by Another Scott 5/7/04 8:48:26 PM Reply	Not on MSN. [link\|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=108144\|It's] #5 there. It's not even in the top 20 according to [link\|http://www.ask.com\|Ask Jeeves]. It's #10 on [link\|http://www.dogpile.com\|Dogpile]. It is #1 at [link\|http://www.altavista.com\|Altavista] too. Cheers, Scott. (Who decided to waste 3 minutes and wishes he hadn't...)
Post #145,425 by Another Scott 3/10/04 5:58:31 PM Reply	Installable File System. Or Internet Face Stab. Your choice. ;-) HTH. Cheers, Scott.
Post #145,392 by ben_tilly 3/10/04 4:57:48 PM Reply	I guess that was unfair. I was specifically thinking about Karsten. A comparison that I was reminded of by your comparing Ross to Karsten while trying to tick Ross off. The impression that I have is that you somehow view your little vendetta with Karsten with some pride. I don't. As for Ross, there are better ways to get him to calm down. You think that your actions caused him to improve. I strongly doubt that. On your list, I have only discussed with a few on that list why they left. Craig and Ric in particular left because they got tired of the squabbling and fighting. Whether or not you in particular are responsible is a different story, but the blowup with Ross is an illustration of why those two chose to leave. Do I have good answers to how to handle the underlying problem? No. But I have to say that I understand why Craig and Ric left, and some days I seriously ask myself why I bother logging in here. And my frustration is far worse when the people flaming are people who in my opinion should know better... Regards, Ben "good ideas and bad code build communities, the other three combinations do not" - [link\|http://archives.real-time.com/pipermail/cocoon-devel/2000-October/003023.html\|Stefano Mazzocchi]
Post #145,472 by folkert 3/10/04 7:53:05 PM Reply	Good Point. <flame>Dammint</flame> (to get the Flame Forum Requirement issue taken care of) Actually, you'd be very surprised. I don't have a vendetta with him. You chat with/mail him recently? Sure, I was pounding my chest, trying to prove who was right. In the end, neither of us was and we all lost (before I chest pounded) a good friend, with some possibly quirky habits, and a whole lot of knowledge and good intent. Most times lately, Z is my last stop for the day at work. Unfortunately, that is probably the worst time I should be looking at it. I am going to make it my mid-morning breaktime thing. Much better frame of mind at that point. If I don't get to it then... NEVER after 12PM Local. Until I get home, then and only then when I am out of the "Just got home" rush, and had a pretty good day. If none that applies... Next Mid-Morning break. And I have spoken/chatted/emailed some on that list as well, it is always the general level of Bickering. And, once they get started a few can't/won't stop until a blowout if the other party responds. So chosing not to participate was the cure for them. And, yes it did help Ross recover for the "positive" negative reaction feedback loop he was in. Overall, I also sincerely doubt it improved him. It just broke the rampant cycle. Not trying to justify what I did, but then Ben, how can you sit there and not be completely over-whelmed by the sheer audacity of some of his recent Postings that were Racist, Sexist, Homophobic, elitism, New-World Order, overall generally unconscionable crap. -- [link\|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net\|greg], [link\|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry\|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ *i_wethey* I did a 10K wheelchair race once. The guy who pushed me still has the whip-marks.
Post #145,479 by ben_tilly 3/10/04 8:41:03 PM Reply	I'll tell you how I recognized the pattern and skipped most of those posts. I also noted how people did (or did not) respond. I replied occasionally in some of the threads where a point interested me. I understand why Ross is angry, and make mental allowances for that. He lashes out at the world, but he does not try to directly go for people's known sore spots. But when I saw you blow up and aim straight for the fucking (inserted so that this still belongs in flames...) jugular, that was different. Different in the way that watching someone be angry and beating on a tree is different than watching someone stick a knife in someone else. (And bringing up Karsten while doing that was a definite sore point for me.) Cheers, Ben "good ideas and bad code build communities, the other three combinations do not" - [link\|http://archives.real-time.com/pipermail/cocoon-devel/2000-October/003023.html\|Stefano Mazzocchi]
Post #145,486 by folkert 3/10/04 9:49:41 PM Reply	Understand. Please, also understand, changes/promises I have made in the previous post are for real. I will make sure, I temper my responses. Meanwhile my CSS list has grown by one. And prolly will stay that way for a while. -- [link\|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net\|greg], [link\|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry\|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ *i_wethey* I did a 10K wheelchair race once. The guy who pushed me still has the whip-marks.
Post #145,422 by jb4 3/10/04 5:54:00 PM Reply	Gad, what a list! Chris Wright? Addison Laurent? Craig Cottingham? Brandioch? Steve O'Connor? Jason Alexander? Mark Nordblom? Yaz? Neel Kris(mumble)? Ric Locke? Rob Nelson? John Stainbeck? Wade Bowmer? Papa Joe? Phil Kust? Man, I remember (and miss) just about the whole lot! Damn, I'm getting old! jb4 shrub\ufffdbish (Am., from shrub* + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating that facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf.* BULLSHIT
Post #145,432 by hnick 3/10/04 6:07:55 PM Reply	Re:Damn, I'm getting old! The alternative sucks... but I don't remember who told me...
Post #145,434 by Arkadiy 3/10/04 6:11:05 PM 3/10/04 6:12:35 PM Reply	I did not realize we lost that many... Sad list indeed. I do remember them all, but most of them went quietly - just stopped posting, that's it. Hurts to see those names together. -- ...what happened to intelligence of this country? -- Sen. Kerry. Edited by Arkadiy March 10, 2004, 06:12:35 PM EST Expand All History
Post #145,436 by Steve Lowe 3/10/04 6:14:47 PM Reply	aye, it does hurt. ----- Steve
Post #145,440 by Another Scott 3/10/04 6:18:17 PM Reply	The LRPD brings some back, e.g. MHuber. :-(
Post #145,449 by inthane-chan 3/10/04 6:39:06 PM Reply	bkosse. :(
Post #145,512 by Steve Lowe 3/11/04 12:13:51 AM Reply	was hoping that one wouldn't come up >:( ----- Steve
Post #145,471 by ben_tilly 3/10/04 7:46:02 PM Reply	You can add to that list... Nick Petreley being most prominent. If you can find it (Peter has it I think), the old IWE archives bring a rush of nostalgia for what we once had. (Some day I should take a copy of that and fix it up so that we can see the corrupted discussions mostly correctly. Of course when I think of doing that, the first one that comes to mind is a particular flamewar that I don't want to see again...) Cheers, Ben "good ideas and bad code build communities, the other three combinations do not" - [link\|http://archives.real-time.com/pipermail/cocoon-devel/2000-October/003023.html\|Stefano Mazzocchi]
Post #145,473 by folkert 3/10/04 7:55:45 PM 3/10/04 7:58:00 PM Reply	That!!! Is exactly what is keeping me from doing it as well. And Recently, I reached out to Nicolas Petreley. He basically said "Hi, thanks, but no thanks" -- [link\|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net\|greg], [link\|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry\|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ *i_wethey* I did a 10K wheelchair race once. The guy who pushed me still has the whip-marks. Edited by folkert March 10, 2004, 07:58:00 PM EST Expand All History
Post #145,935 by Ashton 3/12/04 5:58:06 PM Reply	Re: That!!! Completely unsurprised at his response. I recall those exchanges well. The heat merely expressed the vehemence of the polarities. It is the very-same non-'debate' being Acted Out Right Now re the Far-Right Fundie roots of the present cabal, and its obvious agenda: That we shall ALL accept their horrific vision of the cosmos - Or boil in the oil of the Fantasy of Revelations. Period. cha cha cha. (Meanwhile: screw the planet, its resources and the fools upon it, less'n they are in My Exact Club - but.. We'll Be Watching YOU Too..) This conflict, and its Paternalistic, Authoritarian root forms the very core of the Puritan- and other seeds in the Murican conditioning process. Why should it surprise.. or for that matter, Matter! - - should a fellow IT-person demonstrate the entire panoply of Beliefs of all those 'possessed' of the illusion-of-Possessing THE Truth\ufffd ?? Shit happens (but only to those who always use the 3rd person, to evade responsibilty for Shitting). Ben is quite correct, via my own recollections -- of a pattern of Ben-baiting snide remarks, culminating in a STATEMENT (not mere wink-wink nudge-nudge BS) involving the fact of Ben's marriage, etc. etc. as needs NO recapitulation here or anywhere. Insulting is too mild a word as is, hubris.. too innocuous a tag for the perpetrator of such garbage as I Read. (Much of That exchange may even reside on an old HD of mine, somewhere) He sowed. He pontificated. He reaped. He left. EOF So then - Nick may have been all those Wonderful things as regards insightful delineation of nix and of the machinations of the standard corrupt Murican Corporation du jour. {Yawn} And fun to be around, on the level of beer + Billy jokes. But I deem him, from his own words - among the identified enemies of the continued survival of the planet. It is He and His (their mindset) who shall forever perpetuate the head-on Iraq-ization of the world until the nukes come out. And: THEY WILL. There is no shame left in our governance or our culture, nor finally, within those whom we have contrived against -- for the Lion's share of all the stuff out there. That die is cast. We'll Kill to keep the stuff -as much as we can keep- of the lopsided 'division of spoils' 5%/95% ratio. They will kill because: they know this too. And now - many also believe that Unlimited Consuming IS The Tao; we've sold Our Religion so effectively... Just gotta love Irony, to live 'here'. These weapons will be used, and increasingly likely, with each new piece of Language Murder: in my lifetime. Thus certainly: within Yours. Because of intransigence* precisely as limned, post-by-post within >this microcosm< referenced. (That's the only 'value' I can see to its preservation; it could be edited quite a bit to tell briefly The Same Old Old Story that got us here, today.) No other 'value'. I don't miss the presence of such a one, at all; I'd join the same debate with any wannabe replacement who cares to duel about His 'Absolute Truth' cha cha cha. (And folks who want to keep it light and fizzy hereabouts - need not indulge when apocalyptic matters are faced by any of the others.) Nothing compels. If we start eschewing those er controversial topics :-0 -?- It's. All. Over. At one point, I felt concern for the physical safety of Nick's (ex-) wife. Rage + Religio-Certainty Kills, now more and more often. Apparently she has escaped; have no idea of the factoids of the ex-family situation, nor could anyone know the contributing factors within ANY coupling. That much: we Know we don't know shit about. my 3 kopeks. RIP
Post #145,938 by ben_tilly 3/12/04 6:17:52 PM Reply	And this is why I don't want it resurrected There are still strong feelings about the events. Incidentally if any of Nick's claims about Janice are correct, she went from bad to worse. I know well how unreliable an ex-spouse's claims are. But still I wonder from time to time how Janice is doing, and would contact her if I knew how. Cheers, Ben "good ideas and bad code build communities, the other three combinations do not" - [link\|http://archives.real-time.com/pipermail/cocoon-devel/2000-October/003023.html\|Stefano Mazzocchi]
Post #145,958 by boxley 3/12/04 7:47:29 PM Reply	Not our bidness :( but we are relatively easy to find if ya can get near the web. Hope all is well in all directions. thanx, bill when I was young I envisioned myself as the embodiment of Trinity, Now I realize I have turned into the Bambino questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #145,484 by Nightowl 3/10/04 9:43:32 PM Reply	Interesting observation I don't know anything about "said flamewar" or how "hellish" (ob flame word) it might have been, but something I've realized over the years, and that is that history happens, and you can't change it. You can't sweep it under the rug, you can't pretend it's gone, you can't pretend it never did... and yes, sometimes when you dig out things and look them over, be they real or online, they HURT. But the cleansing you get when you finally put it all to rest is the best feeling. I left my grievance mess with UMSL in a box, unorganized, a distraught disaster for YEARS... when I finally pulled it out and put it in order, filed it neatly and put it away, I was FINALLY able to face what really happened and move on. Not saying anyone hasn't faced anything here, just explaining that IWT is the sum of it's postings, good, bad, ugly, hellish, etc. Editing it doesn't help, and trying to pretend things didn't happen doesn't either. Accept what was and move beyond it, that's what I had to do. Maybe someday you can archive all those posts, Ben, because that would be neat to have, I'm sure. Someday I intend to reorganize all my photos also, but the problem holding me back is I have to deal with 7 years of photos of me and my-exfiance, which is a prospect I don't relish. But someday, when I have more time, I will. Just a few thoughts. Nightowl >8# "Don't be a cynic and disconsolate preacher. Don't bewail and moan. Omit the negative propositions. Challenge us with incessant affirmatives. Don't waste yourself in rejection, or bark against the bad, but chant the beauty of the good." Ralph Waldo Emerson
Post #145,656 by ben_tilly 3/11/04 2:48:02 PM Reply	That's all well and good but... when all is said and done, it is still not fun to look at the moment where something that you cared about first cracked. The flamewar that I was referring to (which I think that Greg likewise meant) was the first time that we argued Creationism vs Evolution. The main thread that started it was between Nick Petreley and myself. When Nick left the community several years later it was after a series of seriously fucked up arguments, mostly about Creationism vs Evolution. (It seems likely to me that Nick was partly using this to vent his frustration over his disaster of a divorce which was going on at the time.) In case you don't know, the thread that bound most of us to IWE in the first place was..Nick Petreley. His loss is therefore particularly keenly felt. Furthermore most of the people that we care about here (both past and present) were part of that flamewar in some way, shape or form. We know our differences, I have no real desire to obsess on them. Regards, Ben "good ideas and bad code build communities, the other three combinations do not" - [link\|http://archives.real-time.com/pipermail/cocoon-devel/2000-October/003023.html\|Stefano Mazzocchi]
Post #145,683 by Nightowl 3/11/04 4:06:08 PM Reply	Thanks for explaining that And yes, I understand it isn't fun. It won't be fun to look at photos of my ex either, but if I want to accomplish the task of putting the pictures in proper order, I'll have to. But I do understand, and that's probably why I keep putting off the project. :) I'm sorry people get upset and leave, anywhere, internet, real life, etc, but unfortunately, it seems to be part of life, and something you come to expect at times. Nightowl >8# "Don't be a cynic and disconsolate preacher. Don't bewail and moan. Omit the negative propositions. Challenge us with incessant affirmatives. Don't waste yourself in rejection, or bark against the bad, but chant the beauty of the good." Ralph Waldo Emerson
Post #145,718 by folkert 3/11/04 5:57:25 PM Reply	That was the One. About Three Miles long and right up the wazoo. Branched into other thread there too. -- [link\|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net\|greg], [link\|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry\|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ *i_wethey* I did a 10K wheelchair race once. The guy who pushed me still has the whip-marks.
Post #145,164 by deSitter 3/9/04 10:59:44 PM Reply	Well I'm sorry too I'm about to flip out from stress and fractured sleep. Every now and then I just wig out. I'm really sad to get mad at Barry, I really feature him, but it just drove me crazy seeing him act like a pointy headed boss, of all people. -drl
Post #145,167 by admin 3/9/04 11:01:49 PM Reply	! You, wig out occasionally?? Say it ain't so!! ;-) Get some sleep. Tend to yourself. Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #145,168 by Another Scott 3/9/04 11:02:15 PM Reply	Hang in there. You'll get through this rough time.
Post #145,278 by ben_tilly 3/10/04 12:32:59 PM Reply	Alternate analysis ...it just drove me crazy seeing him act like a pointy headed boss, of all people. When I see someone act in a way that I thought that they wouldn't, often I look at what they are doing and why, and see if I can figure out how to understand the behaviour so that it fits. For instance my image of Barry is that he isn't a PHB, yet he is acting like a PHB. Which leads me to ask if I can understand the behaviour as arising from a non-PHB approach. In this case I think that I can. So it doesn't bother me. Even though very similar reasoning from someone without a clue would drive me crazy. The significant difference, of course, being that Barry actually can properly evaluate the skills needed to do the job that he wants done. Cheers, Ben "good ideas and bad code build communities, the other three combinations do not" - [link\|http://archives.real-time.com/pipermail/cocoon-devel/2000-October/003023.html\|Stefano Mazzocchi]
Post #145,364 by CRConrad 3/10/04 3:50:27 PM Reply	I say, DAMN impressive language skills there... ...on the part of the LRPD: "Here, have another hor'd'ouevre." Full points for remembering to remove the -s from "hors", when it's used in the singular! (As for the rest of this thread: By now, it's grown enough to pique my curiosity as to WTF you all are gibbering about -- so now I'll go check what Ben branched this thread off from.) [link\|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode\|Christian R. Conrad] (I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.) You know you're doing good work when you get flamed by an idiot. -- [link\|http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/35/34218.html\|Andrew Wittbrodt]
Post #145,366 by admin 3/10/04 3:55:53 PM Reply	Soylent Green is people! Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #145,374 by CRConrad 3/10/04 4:27:59 PM Reply	"People", the collective (i.e, plural) term... ...for humans? Idunno, even one of those seems a bit much for a hor'd'oeuvre, to me... Unless it's an infant, perhaps. Is that what you meant? Lovely idea for a snack -- whole grilled baby. I can hear the enthusiastic dinner guests now: "Mmmm, I'll have just one more delicious Toddler On A Spit, before I go on to the main course!" (So is Soylent Green the main course, then?) Disgust[ing\|ed]ly yours, [link\|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode\|Christian R. Conrad] (I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company. [Jonathan Swift, OTOH, was British. Possibly even Irish.]) You know you're doing good work when you get flamed by an idiot. -- [link\|http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/35/34218.html\|Andrew Wittbrodt]
Post #145,377 by pwhysall 3/10/04 4:30:56 PM Reply	This frog won't croak any more... Peter [link\|http://www.debian.org\|Shill For Hire] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home Page - Now with added Zing!]
Post #145,387 by CRConrad 3/10/04 4:41:24 PM Reply	No fucking wonder - it's almost... ...300 years old[link\|http://www.kirjasto.sci.fi/jswift.htm\|,] ferchrissake[link\|http://www.gutenberg.net/etext97/mdprp10.txt\|!] [link\|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode\|Christian R. Conrad] (I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.) You know you're doing good work when you get flamed by an idiot. -- [link\|http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/35/34218.html\|Andrew Wittbrodt]
Post #145,378 by deSitter 3/10/04 4:31:48 PM Reply	Soylent brown is toddlers -drl
Post #145,384 by inthane-chan 3/10/04 4:39:34 PM Reply	As seen on TV!
Post #145,398 by admin 3/10/04 5:07:19 PM Reply	... What Peter said... Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #145,404 by CRConrad 3/10/04 5:24:54 PM Reply	Sheesh, you guys... You gross out THAT easily? :-/ [link\|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode\|Christian R. Conrad] (I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.) You know you're doing good work when you get flamed by an idiot. -- [link\|http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/35/34218.html\|Andrew Wittbrodt]
Post #145,415 by admin 3/10/04 5:47:15 PM Reply	Eh... Was referring to your apparent failure to catch the reference (or of my failure to appreciate that you caught it, take your pick based on the actualite). Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #145,805 by CRConrad 3/12/04 7:31:52 AM Reply	No, of course I realised that if a frog won't croak, it... ...might be because it's been dissected. That was (since we are "dissecting frogs" already) what one part -- the "obvious" part, I thought; the one that was supposed to be noticed and thus distract the reader from the other, "subtler" one -- of my attempt meant: If a frog were three hundred years old, it could hardly be expected to croak any more. Because... ...it's croaked long ago, as it were. (I wonder if anyone caught my other, "semi-subtle", references...?) [link\|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode\|Christian R. Conrad] (I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.) You know you're doing good work when you get flamed by an idiot. -- [link\|http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/35/34218.html\|Andrew Wittbrodt]
Post #145,921 by Ashton 3/12/04 4:46:38 PM Reply	Let us not even start on the multifarious 'cracked crab'

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